Artorias of the Abyss vs Cloud Strife

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Saint_of_Origin

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Rules and Conditions

  • Artorias is corrupted by the Abyss
  • Cloud is Advent Children version (Cured of Geostigma)
  • Artorias can have lore feats
  • Victory by death only
  • Both bloodlusted
  • All rules not stated = Comic Vine Standard

Arena

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  • Artorias starts at the doorway, cloud starts from where the picture is (other side of the room)
  • Indestructible and inescapable

Music: Artorias

Music: Cloud

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serpinethegreen

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@saint_of_origin:

Cloud wins

I rather like Artorias but hes not even close to Clouds level

The guy beat sephiroth who is demi god planet busting bad ass

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Saint_of_Origin

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@saint_of_origin:

Cloud wins

I rather like Artorias but hes not even close to Clouds level

The guy beat sephiroth who is demi god planet busting bad ass

Neither Sephiroth nor Cloud were at that level in Advent Children

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serpinethegreen

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@saint_of_origin:

Incorrect sephiroth was

In advent children sephiroth is at his canon best fact

And sephiroth could destroy planets before getting the black materia, he just needed it because he wanted the planet wounded, not destroyed so he could absorb the life stream and become more powerful

Whether you believe this or not is fine since artorias lost to the chosen undead who well....he's not really even much higher than street level.

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Saint_of_Origin

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@saint_of_origin:

Incorrect sephiroth was

In advent children sephiroth is at his canon best fact

And sephiroth could destroy planets before getting the black materia, he just needed it because he wanted the planet wounded, not destroyed so he could absorb the life stream and become more powerful

Whether you believe this or not is fine since artorias lost to the chosen undead who well....he's not really even much higher than street level.

Prove it. And Artorias losing to the Chosen Undead is what we would call GIS (Gameplay induced stupidity) here. Considering Artorias was killing dragons in the lore and dragons >>> Chosen Undead (Chosen Undead needed Gough to severely wound Kalameet to even have a chance) and the fact that the most common occurrence when players fought Artorias for the first time without prior knowledge was death, we can again attribute that loss to GIS.

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Marshall_Long

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@saint_of_origin: I don't have a link to provide but fans kept saying Tetsuya Nomura said Sephiroth was at his strongest in Advent Children.

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Saint_of_Origin

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@saint_of_origin: I don't have a link to provide but fans kept saying Tetsuya Nomura said Sephiroth was at his strongest in Advent Children.

Without proof, I can't believe it. He was beaten by Cloud rather easily. Nor did he show anything even close to continent level. Let alone planetbusting.

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serpinethegreen

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@saint_of_origin:

I don't have the time to find the quote so for this situation let's pretend sephiroth isn't

What I can prove with relative ease is the vast differance between artorias and cloud

I'll start by going back a bit

Sephiroth defeats a dragon with a single attack, this is in a flashback to the times of crises core sephiroth canon weakest (except before crisis but hes more or less the same)

So here we can point out killing a dragon without context isn't very impressive (also since we can't compare the two dragon's it adds to the problem)

Now in FF 7 while in a cocoon sephiroth destroyed shinra or a large portion just with tk alone from the northern caverns

This is sephiroth before his peak, who Cloud defeated even with pis him beating sephiroth is nothing short of remarkable

So this is just a small idea I will now go into real detail

Zack defeated three genesis clones with an umbrella while wearing trunks

A little while later zack lost to sephiroth in nebelhelm despite using an actual weapon

He and cloud are given jenova cells

Zack becomes stronger from those cells, cloud is given even more cells than him

Zack fights and defeats Genesis

A little later zack defeats hundreds of soldiers and guards protecting cloud....and dies

Cloud gets the sword and some of zack memories

Fast forward a lot cloud in advent children is roughly equal if not above zack I'm skill

Zack skill > genetically superior clones of genesis

Crisis core sephiroth superior power and skill > zack skill

Zack enhanced and skill > genesis

Zack enhanced and skill > hundreds of soldiers and guards

Zack enhanced and skill >/= crisis core sephiroth

Cloud enhanced > zack skill

Cloud enhanced and skill > zack enhanced and skill

From all this we can assume Cloud is above zack in advent children, so we can assume anything zack and crisis core sephiroth could do (outside of specific powers) cloud could also

From this we can assume that cloud is way above dragon's or countless men with guns, robots and summons

Artorias lost to a single hollow man

And isn't close to Clouds league

......or zack had a magic umbrella

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Saint_of_Origin

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@saint_of_origin:

I don't have the time to find the quote so for this situation let's pretend sephiroth isn't

What I can prove with relative ease is the vast differance between artorias and cloud

I'll start by going back a bit

Sephiroth defeats a dragon with a single attack, this is in a flashback to the times of crises core sephiroth canon weakest (except before crisis but hes more or less the same)

So here we can point out killing a dragon without context isn't very impressive (also since we can't compare the two dragon's it adds to the problem)

Now in FF 7 while in a cocoon sephiroth destroyed shinra or a large portion just with tk alone from the northern caverns

This is sephiroth before his peak, who Cloud defeated even with pis him beating sephiroth is nothing short of remarkable

So this is just a small idea I will now go into real detail

Zack defeated three genesis clones with an umbrella while wearing trunks

A little while later zack lost to sephiroth in nebelhelm despite using an actual weapon

He and cloud are given jenova cells

Zack becomes stronger from those cells, cloud is given even more cells than him

Zack fights and defeats Genesis

A little later zack defeats hundreds of soldiers and guards protecting cloud....and dies

Cloud gets the sword and some of zack memories

Fast forward a lot cloud in advent children is roughly equal if not above zack I'm skill

Zack skill > genetically superior clones of genesis

Crisis core sephiroth superior power and skill > zack skill

Zack enhanced and skill > genesis

Zack enhanced and skill > hundreds of soldiers and guards

Zack enhanced and skill >/= crisis core sephiroth

Cloud enhanced > zack skill

Cloud enhanced and skill > zack enhanced and skill

From all this we can assume Cloud is above zack in advent children, so we can assume anything zack and crisis core sephiroth could do (outside of specific powers) cloud could also

From this we can assume that cloud is way above dragon's or countless men with guns, robots and summons

Artorias lost to a single hollow man

And isn't close to Clouds league

......or zack had a magic umbrella

Powerscaling doesn't work when comparing two different mediums. Game and movie cannot be compared here. Advent Children Cloud is only what Advent Children Cloud showed in Advent Children. No powerscaling BS. Artorias fought and killed dragons regularly as one of Gwyn's 4 knights. He was rumored to be the strongest of the four of them as well.

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serpinethegreen

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@saint_of_origin:

And he lost to the chosen undead

But in all seriousness being the strongest of the three means nothing the chosen undead soloed both ornstein and smaug (smaug isn't a knight but mainly due to his appetites) and the other two well....gough was impressive at range, but dear god was he weak up close, and don't get me started on cerian

The strongest of those four is like being voted most attractive man....In the burn ward.

You mention not comparing game and film feats, but I have to compare advent children the op said cloud from advent children

Also it's not bs all of the things I mention are canon some even having cinematics confirming them

Also (again) you saying game amd film feats not translating well...but surely you can see the irony of comparing the game with lore right?

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Saint_of_Origin

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@saint_of_origin:

And he lost to the chosen undead

But in all seriousness being the strongest of the three means nothing the chosen undead soloed both ornstein and smaug (smaug isn't a knight but mainly due to his appetites) and the other two well....gough was impressive at range, but dear god was he weak up close, and don't get me started on cerian

The strongest of those four is like being voted most attractive man....In the burn ward.

You mention not comparing game and film feats, but I have to compare advent children the op said cloud from advent children

Also it's not bs all of the things I mention are canon some even having cinematics confirming them

Also (again) you saying game amd film feats not translating well...but surely you can see the irony of comparing the game with lore right?

They lost to the Chosen Undead because of GIS. It was programmed to be impossible to progress in the respective areas unless you defeated Ornstein and Artorias. They had to be defeatable. Comparing game with lore is perfectly reasonable, considering the lore came from that game and that game alone. Combining film and game feats isn't acceptable. The OP says Advent Children (which is the movie) Cloud, so movie Cloud is what we're using. Regardless I'm not here to debate in my own thread.

@mudamudamuda Thoughts on this battle?

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MudaMudaMuda

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@saint_of_origin: I know that Artorias cannot beat game Cloud, but this is AoC Cloud and I'm not sure how his game feats translate to his film version.

So I can't be of much help here unfortunately.

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Saint_of_Origin

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@saint_of_origin: I know that Artorias cannot beat game Cloud, but this is AoC Cloud and I'm not sure how his game feats translate to his film version.

So I can't be of much help here unfortunately.

Film cloud means film feats only. It's kind of like the difference from All Star Superman and the comic book Supes. It follows a similar timeline to the comics IIRC, but it's not the same universe and it's a different character. And obviously AotA can't beat game Cloud. Game Cloud is OP. :P

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serpinethegreen

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#14  Edited By serpinethegreen

@mudamudamuda:

The thing about lore is that it's not that reliable, you should Google the word lore and the word fact

The lore means they are far more powerful than the chosen undead

The facts are he beat and killed all of them

When everything in a game is gis, there are two options accept that they lost to the chosen undead and the lore is probably hyperbole, or the entire game is stupid and everything is wrong

If you choose that latter I can't debate you because you are delusional, and if you choose the former I'm done debating you because Cloud would therefor have clearly won and the thread is over.

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MudaMudaMuda

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@mudamudamuda said:

@saint_of_origin: I know that Artorias cannot beat game Cloud, but this is AoC Cloud and I'm not sure how his game feats translate to his film version.

So I can't be of much help here unfortunately.

Film cloud means film feats only. It's kind of like the difference from All Star Superman and the comic book Supes. It follows a similar timeline to the comics IIRC, but it's not the same universe and it's a different character. And obviously AotA can't beat game Cloud. Game Cloud is OP. :P

I see, that does make sense.

Well, I suppose it could go either way then since I haven't seen much from this cloud to suggest he is more powerful.

@mudamudamuda:

The lore means they are far more powerful than the chosen undead

The facts are he beat and killed all of them

You tagged the wrong person.

Anyway, you are overlooking the fact that the chosen undead spent the entire game collecting souls to gain more power.

Games can be tricky when it comes to matching the lore with the actual feats, but that doesn't mean that you can just ignore the plot. Unless you believe that the fodder demons who created the demon ruins and sunk the Iron fortress are the most powerful beings in Dark souls.

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serpinethegreen

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#16  Edited By serpinethegreen

@mudamudamuda:

Oh well sorry about that

I'm not ignoring the plot I'm doing the opposite I'm focusing mainly on it and less on lore

@saint_of_origin:

Uh this is awkward....if you look a bit above there's a wall of text I should have tagged you in

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kingogkings777

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Artorias wins.

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DemonSlayer69

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In the Movie, Cloud beat Bahamut Sin.

Zack died, And he didn't even Kill Genesis.

Cloud isn't even close to Zacks level, Zack solos Summons while Cloud fights Things with a party backing him.

Sephiroth is Continental at best, With prep.

His supernova has been confirmed Non Canon Multiple Times.

Sephiroth isn't even top dog in Final Fantasy.

Cloud would Murder Artorias unfortunately.

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Amendment50

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Not sure what Saint was going on about back in the day what with Artorias being stronger than the Chosen Undead but nevertheless Artorias should take this.