Based on available feats and comparable opponents, I can't see Arrow being anything close to more effective then Ward in H2H situations. To date, Ollie's best CQC feat is beating a bunch of random inmates in close, but he had his bow the entire time, and took out a few with arrows to help mitigate the battezone. Ward on the other hand has his feat against a dozen level agents. On top of repeated performances against hydra agents. In the last episode, he took out 4 or 5 even though he started without a weapon, and was trying to keep some alive to interrogate. Vs Mirakuru Ollie was left in a pile of rubble wuth full gear whereas Ward straight up beat a centipede soldier, and fought more or less evenly every other time he fought them. So Ollie has a couple of nice plot wins (cure) against Mirakuru, and a couple losses. Ward has 1 clear win against Centipedes, and no real losses to them.
It is important to note that while Ward used a night night pack to take out the Centipede, it can't be held as a detractor for two reasons:
1. Night/Night Tech was already in use on the team, in the form of the night night gun and night/night pistols, and went on to become standard gear in the form of ICERS, and was not developed strictly for use against centipedes anyway. They just presented a nice opportunity to field test, and he no way to deploy it. He just had to figure iut how to use it in the fight.
2. The only reason they used them is they were trying not to have to kill them. Centipede soldiers were just that...real, highly trained specops guys. They didn't want to kill them. I think they even pointed out that they could just have Ward sit outside with a sniper rifle and wait for them.
I may not be as up on the shows as I think, however using these night night examples for Ward's H2H I don't understand.
Oh. Nightnight gun was a giant rilfe that fired like, cold plasma bolts or something of a neurotoxin. It put down anything nonlethally. They then developed the tech into pistols, and eventually, bullets which they call icers. At the time Ward fought the Centipede, he pulled out a nightnight canisster/capsule, and managed to shove it into the centipede's mouth and knee him in the jaw to deploy it. Some people like to nit pick the feat as if Ward was using some form of super tech developed specially for the centipedes, or as if it wasn't h2h. My argument has always been that Ward found a way to win using a piece of standard gear which he engaged h2h, deployed h2h, and activated h2h, thus it is quite clearly a h2h feat.
As for their "levels" it is less speculation on Wards part. We have clear cut comparisons to draw from, with clearly given answers, and performances against the same enemies as Black Widow and Hawkeye in Hydra/SHIELD Agents; AoS has also gone out of the way to include a common character or two in Marcus Scarlotti and a few others I think, so that we can see how the AoS cast compares in their performances. The answer is, very well. There is more than enough evidence available to declare Ward as being on the same tier as widow and hawkeye.
Only question here is: Why wasn't he (or May for that matter) recruited for the Avengers?
Tchnically speaking, neither were Hawkeye or Widow. They were recruited to watch and scout the Avengers, and they then got caught up in it. May at the time was on extended seperation from the agency, and was no longer active as a specialist. Remember, she started off the show as an admin agent following the events in Bahrain. Ward was also on assignment at the time in Georgia...also, I believe he had another team that he headed, where as Widow is more or less a free lance agent. Simply put, both are spies, but Widow is more of an assassin whereas Ward is more of a soldier. She would have been better suited for the screening mission with the avengers initiative, as well as much more well tailored for cover at Stark enterprises...and would you really send Ward after the Hulk?
Rd 2 with full gear, in the open I agree it is a kill for Ward, although I think 20% is generous for Ollie. The draw and fire time for a moderately trained shooter is 2 tenths of a second. Meaning Ward can draw and get off 4 shots in roughly the amount of time it would take for Ollie to get his first.
Draw and fire, yes. Draw and AIMED fire I give Grant two seconds because he's a super bad ass special operations guy. Either way, I don't think Arrow would try to out draw and shoot at Ward, he'd try to evade, but with Grant's likely accuracy, I think 20% is reasonable, but I'll split the difference and call it 15%.
.2 Seconds is the time for draw and aimed fire. That is testing with New York City and LA police officers. Also, comparing firefight accuracy, in head to head firefights against opponents of comparable accuracy who know how to utilize tactical fire movements, Ollie's accuracy is less then stellar. He does well against automatic weapons in untrained shooters hands, but it is important to remember that even in the hands of Marines, automatic weapons have a hit rating of something like...1000 or more rds fired per hit. This means that the chances of Ollie being hit are almost statistically zero in these short firefights, and thus, he has time to stand and fire which he doesn't have against accurate shooters. Indeed, against almost all shooters with automatics, Ollie stands and fires. Not a luxury afforded against someone who can easily hit a standing target. In fact, against Merlyn and Nyssa, his accrued hit rate is precisely 0. Ward on the other hand has hit every shot that wasn't meant for suppressive fire, with the exception of the first two shots where Lance surprised him and jumped out of the way. Firefight accuracy for Ward is much higher than Ollie's is. Much.
If they start hidden, it moves up to closer to 50/50. Yes, Ollie is based stealth, however, he also get's caught sneaking quite a bit any time he faces someone with a name. (Blame on the need for a fight though...but it happens) The same goes for Ward. Their actual sneak feats are roughly comparable...only Ollie is trained in stealth whereas Ward as a sniper is trained in both stealth and counter stealth. I give them both even odds of finding eachother; from there, I think there are just too many variables in how the first volley can happen to call it either way.
I can only make the same argument for Arrow having the same stealth/counter stealth ability. As I said (yes, they do usually let Arrow be seen more often as a plot point) stealth is a third of what makes Arrow dangerous. Trust me when I say (well, you have no reason to, but please trust me anyway :) ) that there's a world of difference between sniping sort of stealth and close quarter combat (CQB) type of stealth. Both combatants are trained in both. However, Arrow uses it as a specialty, and Ward uses it as one of the tools in his tool bag. One of the things that makes Ward so dangerous is his versatility. One of the things that makes Arrow so dangerous is that he's pretty much the best at the fewer things he does, in comparison to Ward. Sorry, I give Ward, very little chance at a stealth fight between the two of them. You've made some good insights that made me have to re-think some stuff though. Appreciate it. :)
The difference is that ninja's are trained to infiltrate and attack and not be seen...they are not trained to hunt down others who do the same nearly as much as Ward is. Ninjas can do so simply because they have similar training...Ward however has specifically been taught the skills to counter that training, whereas there is no evidence that Ollie has. I am not saying which would win in a pure stealth fight, simply that there is nothing to indicate that EITHER of them can successfully keep the fight stealth. I think either one would be caught trying to sneak the other, and from there, like I said, there are to many variable for how that could play out. It isn't as clear cut as whoever get's seen first loses, because Ward's counter sniping and draw times mean he could mount enough of a response to force a miss by Ollie, and Ollie is fast enough between obstacles that he could do the same to Ward. Way to many variables, so I simply call a stealth fight 50/50. Both MIGHT be able to sneak kill the other, but it's more than like that either of them would get caught by the other well trying.
N/P...good to get some decent talks around here man.
Last episode video vs Hydra:
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