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#1 Posted by spekqj (566 posts) - - Show Bio

I just started watching Supernatural season 7 and....I must say Leviathans really underwhelmed me. At first, I thought they're really cool and creative concept, but now I think they're just evolved shapeshifter, who now can even absorb victims' memories.

Does anyone think Leviathans are as powerful as what Death described on episode 1? I thought they would be more powerful or intelligent than Angels...but they seems worse than demons in terms of strength.

#2 Posted by HolySerpent (12793 posts) - - Show Bio

The leviathans are a joke. Angels and demons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leviathans.

#3 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@HolySerpent said:

The leviathans are a joke. Angels and demons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leviathans.
#4 Posted by buttersdaman000 (10465 posts) - - Show Bio

Already a thread similar to this I think......and the common consensus is....

@HolySerpent said:

The leviathans are a joke. Angels and demons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leviathans.

Until the Leviathans show something other than immortality at least

#5 Posted by TheWitchingHour (1340 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the reason Death hyped up the Leviathans so much was because of their specific niche. For one their immortality would be a pain in the ass for Death. And secondly they seem to have swarm tactics, just overwhelming the human race and replacing them one by one. It's not that they're super-powerful it's just that there are so damn many and you can't really bring their numbers down. I agree they aren't the best villains in the shows history (in fact they are the worst). But I still really like them.

#6 Posted by terry2012 (5904 posts) - - Show Bio

Archangels wins hands down no contest.

#7 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

a witch as able to knock one out and keep him down for a while, but in the end it was the Leviathans that were tearing God-Cas up from the inside and he was more powerful than any archangel. Leviathan seem to have the ability to take over the vessels of angels even mutated ones that think they are God, they can probably just do what they did to Cas to any angel regardless of status.

#8 Edited by NEEK_03 (1200 posts) - - Show Bio

arch angels merk them.

#9 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

@Neek, so far they can't be killed and archangels can, so how will the angels merk them? It's not even clear that angels even knew about Leviathans before Cas absorbed them, but they have all knowledge on heaven and angelic weakness due to possesing Cas. What are the archangels gonna do? Leviathan have the ability to take over vessels that have angels in them and kill the angel in the process. The proved to be too much for "God"-Cas, they are separate from the sould in purgatory as they were created before souls and likely did not add any power to strengthen him when they were inside because they aren't souls, even with those millions of souls they still overpowered him and he was more powerful than any archangel.

#10 Edited by spekqj (566 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

a witch as able to knock one out and keep him down for a while, but in the end it was the Leviathans that were tearing God-Cas up from the inside and he was more powerful than any archangel. Leviathan seem to have the ability to take over the vessels of angels even mutated ones that think they are God, they can probably just do what they did to Cas to any angel regardless of status.

But when they took over cas, there were hundreds, or thousands, of leviathans inside of Cas and leviathans only able to tear apart Cas becasue Cas voluntarily absorbed them in first place. I don't think this type of attack will work on any angel unless they abosrbed Leviathan as Cas did.

And I don't think mutated Cas is more pwoerful than the archangel....he might be more powerful than Raphael...but not sure about Micahel and Lucifer. Cas really didn't want to release both of them from the cage.(To make sure, he spared Crowley and Hell)

#11 Posted by Deranged Midget (17961 posts) - - Show Bio

@spekqj said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

a witch as able to knock one out and keep him down for a while, but in the end it was the Leviathans that were tearing God-Cas up from the inside and he was more powerful than any archangel. Leviathan seem to have the ability to take over the vessels of angels even mutated ones that think they are God, they can probably just do what they did to Cas to any angel regardless of status.

But when they took over cas, there were hundreds, or thousands, of leviathans inside of Cas and leviathans only able to tear apart Cas becasue Cas voluntarily absorbed them in first place. I don't think this type of attack will work on any angel unless they abosrbed Leviathan as Cas did.

And I don't think mutated Cas is more pwoerful than the archangel....he might be more powerful than Raphael...but not sure about Micahel and Lucifer. Cas really didn't want to release both of them from the cage.(To make sure, he spared Crowley and Hell)

I doubt God Castiel was on par with Michael or Lucifer. And wasn't the power of the Leviathans powering him along with the millions of other souls.

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#12 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

He took them in but neither him nor the ritual to release the souls of purgatory could send them back, when they decided they didn't want to leave, they take over bodies with that black goo, just seems to me they could enter his vessel whether he wanted them to or not, same way they didn't leave it even though that is what Cas wanted. Mutated Cas was more powerful than archangels, just look at the scope of his power when he was "God" he was aware of everything that was going on in the world, and casually fixing things he deemed wrong. He broke a binding that even Lucifer had to perform a ritual to create. No archangel had that kind of awareness or power on a global scale. I for one don't really think that the power level of the different archangels is so huge that the first two are all powerful compared to the last two, Lucifer was pretty sure he could take Michael in the final battle, and Gabriel was pretty sure he could take Lucifer so if the level of power is so unevenly divided they simply wouldn't try. He didn't want Michael and Lucifer out of the cage for the same reason he didn't want them to meet up in season 6, they were going to go through with the Apocalypse and even with all his power the two of them had rallying power, all of Heaven would have fallen back in line if Michael was free and hell would follow Lucifer I doubt the Leviathan added anything to Cas power, they are not souls and have not displayed any powers to suggest they had anything to offer Cas, the reason ghosts and demons are so powerful is because they are fully actualized human souls, angels have a grace and Leviathan are just Leviathan, if they had power that he could use then why don't they use it? they don't teleport they drive around in cars, they don't have psi powers they use computers to find people. They don't telekinetically kill people, they use guns. The main point is that there is no known way to kill them (except by eating themselves), but there are a few ways to kill angels and the Leviathan know these ways thanks to Cas. And as mentioned their are hundreds or even thousands of them and 4 archangels (2 considering Raph and Gab are dead), how long before they figure out that the Leviathan don't die, Lucifer might get emotional and go into the fetal position considering he thinks that angels are Gods first children and he hates everything non-angel that God created, I wonder what his reaction would be if he found out he has not only one older brother but like a thousand or so, that hate him just as much as he hates humans.

#13 Posted by Strider92 (16823 posts) - - Show Bio

From what i've seen the only thing so strong about Leviathan's is their durability due to the lack of knowledge on how to kill them. Thus as Arc Angels are reality warpers its a stomp in their favor.

#14 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

How is it a stomp in their favor because they warp reality? doesn't matter how much reality you can warp if what you are trying to kill can't die as deemed by the most powerful reality warper, God. God himself created an enitre dimension just to get rid of them. I doubt archangels can do something that apparently not even God and Death can do. People need to stop ignoring the fact that so far nothing can kill them and they have full knowledge of what can kill and bind angels. No amount of reality warping helps angels out when enochian sigils, weapons of heaven, and holy oil are involved. These are creatures that with sufficient numbers can kill angels with none of the items mentioned above.

#15 Posted by spekqj (566 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

He took them in but neither him nor the ritual to release the souls of purgatory could send them back, when they decided they didn't want to leave, they take over bodies with that black goo, just seems to me they could enter his vessel whether he wanted them to or not, same way they didn't leave it even though that is what Cas wanted.

Mutated Cas was more powerful than archangels, just look at the scope of his power when he was "God" he was aware of everything that was going on in the world, and casually fixing things he deemed wrong. He broke a binding that even Lucifer had to perform a ritual to create. No archangel had that kind of awareness or power on a global scale. I for one don't really think that the power level of the different archangels is so huge that the first two are all powerful compared to the last two, Lucifer was pretty sure he could take Michael in the final battle, and Gabriel was pretty sure he could take Lucifer so if the level of power is so unevenly divided they simply wouldn't try. He didn't want Michael and Lucifer out of the cage for the same reason he didn't want them to meet up in season 6, they were going to go through with the Apocalypse and even with all his power the two of them had rallying power, all of Heaven would have fallen back in line if Michael was free and hell would follow Lucifer
I doubt the Leviathan added anything to Cas power, they are not souls and have not displayed any powers to suggest they had anything to offer Cas, the reason ghosts and demons are so powerful is because they are fully actualized human souls, angels have a grace and Leviathan are just Leviathan, if they had power that he could use then why don't they use it? they don't teleport they drive around in cars, they don't have psi powers they use computers to find people. They don't telekinetically kill people, they use guns.
The main point is that there is no known way to kill them (except by eating themselves), but there are a few ways to kill angels and the Leviathan know these ways thanks to Cas. And as mentioned their are hundreds or even thousands of them and 4 archangels (2 considering Raph and Gab are dead), how long before they figure out that the Leviathan don't die, Lucifer might get emotional and go into the fetal position considering he thinks that angels are Gods first children and he hates everything non-angel that God created, I wonder what his reaction would be if he found out he has not only one older brother but like a thousand or so, that hate him just as much as he hates humans.

Yea, but still it doesn't change the fact that Cas had to absorb them first.

No, both Lucifer and Gabriel did not think they can take out their older sibling easily. The one thing so great about Gabriel is that he stood against his older brother, who is much more powerful than him, to defend our race. After all, Lucifer was just teasing with Gabriel during the fight...or he did not want to kill his younger brother as longer as he could.(He even made "sad" face after killing Gabriel.) Remember Cas before the mutation said Raphael cannot be even compared to Micahel or Lucifer.

And I think it's illogical to think Cas is more powerful than Lucifer only becasue Lucifer went through the ritual to bind Death. I mean breaking binding can be easy, but binding Death can be very hard...I mean it's Death, who claims himself he could reap God. If Cas binds Death without the ritual, then I will admit the muated Cas is much more powerful than Lucifer.

That's a part of the reason why the muated Cas is not more powerful than Archangels. If he is truly more powerful than Michael and Lucifer, he could just simply kill them, but he didn't. If he really worried about those two, more logical action for Cas is to kill both of them, rather than locking them inside of the cage. I mean the cage opened once, it might be opened again by Heaven or Hell.

For the last comment, I don't think Lucifer would mind about God's older creatures. Lucifer abominated us becasue we're the favorite children of God, not because we're older than him.(Remember what Gabriel said during the fight? Lucifer was God's favorite child before God created us.)

#16 Posted by spekqj (566 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

How is it a stomp in their favor because they warp reality? doesn't matter how much reality you can warp if what you are trying to kill can't die as deemed by the most powerful reality warper, God. God himself created an enitre dimension just to get rid of them. I doubt archangels can do something that apparently not even God and Death can do. People need to stop ignoring the fact that so far nothing can kill them and they have full knowledge of what can kill and bind angels. No amount of reality warping helps angels out when enochian sigils, weapons of heaven, and holy oil are involved. These are creatures that with sufficient numbers can kill angels with none of the items mentioned above.

I don't think God could not kill Leviathans. He could if He really wanted to, but he just locked them up becasue Leviathans are still his creations, or children in his perspectives. If God simply killed Leviathans because they're destructive and harmful against his other creations, He would do same thing to Lucifer. However, in both casees, God did not kill his rouge children; he just created dimensions for each of them in order to contain them inside safely.

#17 Posted by HolySerpent (12793 posts) - - Show Bio

Lordofhumans does not what he's talking about...as usual

#18 Posted by HolySerpent (12793 posts) - - Show Bio

Meg the demon>>>> leviathans

#19 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

Cas did not absorb them, they hitched a ride. Death made it very clear when he sensed them that there is a difference between souls and Leviathan. They went into Cas without his premission or knowledge and when he wanted to purge himself they didn't leave and killed him. I didn't say easily, they believed they had a chance, that would suggest that the power difference is not as big as people think. I remember Cas saying that, but was he talking about power or imgaination? Raph was old school, Lucifer was not and a lot more inventive he found a way to torute souls so much they became demons. it would even seem that Michael and Raphael were closer to each other and Lucifer and Gabriel were closer based on how they operated. Binding is easier than un-binding, just likes it easier to make a knot, untying it can be a bitch. Lucifer went through even greater lengths than Sam and Dean to summon and bind Death and with a snap of his fingers Cas broke that binding and even Death was suprised. Cas with a a few thousand loaner souls from Hell was at least a match for an archangel, taking in Purgatory put him over the top. Raph is the 3rd which means if Cas with a few thousand souls can match him Cas at the point is at least Lucifer level, so taking millions of them makes him higher. Only the archangels have even seen God, but for some reason Cas with the power of those souls thinks he is God level, he is fully aware of the power of the archangels, if he thought he was God it was because he was more powerful than archangels, since they are the only things he can compare his power to. Lucifer called "us" cosmic abortions, why on Earth would he not think the same thing about Gods real cosmic abortions? He is nothing more than a jealous child at the end of the day. Of course God can kill Leviathan because he is God, but God is infallible, so if he makes something unkillable then even he can't kill them, because if he does he becomes fallible and no longer God. Holyserpent as usual says and knows nothing. Crowley >>>>>>>meg and he is terrified of Leviathan. So until the show actually kills them they can't be killed and archangels can and thanks to Cas they know how to kill them.

#20 Posted by HolySerpent (12793 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lordofhumans: what? Are you serious with that post

#21 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

@HolySerpent, do you pay attention to the show or just like to act like you know what's going on? if you want to debate then let's do so, if all you can say is nothing and wait for somebody else to help you say even less then cut it out. You and others around here overrate the archangels of Supernatural simply because they are angels and sons of God, they however are jokes when compared to many other beings outside of their universe, and are nothing more than spoiled children in the eyes of Death in their own universe.

#22 Posted by Dernman (15632 posts) - - Show Bio

Archangels>>>>>>Leviathans 

#23 Posted by Saren (25055 posts) - - Show Bio

No Archangel has ever been defeated by ingredients I can find in my bathroom.

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#24 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

archangels can be defeated by oil and signs written in blood. Archangels >>>>> leviathan when it comes to flashy powers, but they can be killed and leviathan can't the aformentioned ingredients only slow them down and are only a minor annoyance to the more powerful of them like Dick, so far the only way to kill one is for it to be eaten by itself. when the show comes up with a viable way to kill them, I will change my tune, but as of now they are unkillable and have vast knowledge on angels and their weaknesses, which means they can win, they have greater numbers than the 2 archangels that are left and have been shown to kill angels without the use of any of the things that in fact can kill angels. they were in the vessel of an angel that was more powerful than an archangel and they took over when he has the power of "God" and then killed him later.

#25 Edited by Strider92 (16823 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: The main thing about Leviathan's is their incredible durability but we have seen Dean and Bobby deal them some damage eg: Dean throwing Borax on them and Bobby cutting ones head off (I know it didn't kill the Leviathan but it had to wait a long time for its head to regrow). Now if we go by that if a human can subdue and cut the head off a Leviathan an Angel should definitely be able to now throw in the fact that Arc-angels are reality warpers who create stuff out of nothing all one would have to do is imagine a swimming pool full of Borax tie the headless body to a chair and throw it in. The borax will weaken the Lev so much its not gonna be able to break the chains thus it will stay trapped there for eternity. That Witch was also able to paralyze a Leviathan for a few days, all an Angel would have to do is recreate the same spell (as they are one of the strongest beings in SN they probably have a better one for it but as we have no proof of that then we'll go by that spell) then just do what I said again with the Borax swimming pool thus completely incapacitating the Leviathan and giving the Angels the win.

#26 Posted by buttersdaman000 (10465 posts) - - Show Bio

And God Cas is not as strong as Michael or Lucifer either. The power gap between archangels was wide, Gabriel and Raphael were not on the same level as their brothers.

#27 Posted by CapitolPunishment (2303 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

No Archangel has ever been defeated by ingredients I can find in my bathroom.

#28 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider good points, but if you can't kill them you can't win. The Borax was most effective against a foot soldier, Dick was barely effected at all. Angels do not know about Leviathan at all and humans stumbled upon the weakness because one was cleaning the house, leviathan on the other hand know everything about angels thanks to Cas @buttersdaman please provide proof for that, because going by feats Raph and Gab have more and greater feats than Mich and Luci. Cas called himself God, God is the most powerful being in SN, he would not think he was God if there angels more powerful than he was, he didn't do that ritual to get to archangel status, he did that ritual to get beyond that status, he was near archangel level with a few thousand souls from hell which gave him the power to match Raph, if the gap in power is as far as you believe that means he was at least Lucifer level when he matched Raph.

#29 Edited by buttersdaman000 (10465 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans:

Cas was afraid to let Michael out of the cage. Crowley said something about it, but Castiel cut him off and said that Micheal needed to stay trapped. If Cas was really on Gods level, then Michael wouldnt had worried him at all. I had the same argument with someone else, but I cant find the thread.

And also, Michael is much more powerful than Lucifer, but not to the same degree as the other two archangels. Remember when Castiel was speaking to Dean about the Apocalypse? He said, with utmost confidence, that the only thing you would see is Michael beating down Sam/Lucifer. Every Angel in the show was certain that Michael would stomp.

#30 Posted by Saren (25055 posts) - - Show Bio

Who said anything about needing to kill them for the win?

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#31 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

Cas was worried about a lot of things, all the angels were a threat to what he was doing which is why he went to heaven and made examples out of those that didn't want to follow him, if Michael got out the other angels would follow the only reason heaven was in a state of disorder is because Michael was gone, that only proves that Cas was not God not that he was less powerful than other angles.

#32 Posted by buttersdaman000 (10465 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans:

No, it proves that Cas didnt want Michael out of the cage. If he was stronger than Micheal then he couldve made an example out of him the same way he did those Angels.

#33 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

Michael and Lucifer want to finsih the story the way God wrote it, it's pretty clear that in the past Michael can get the backing of God to do things, for example beating Lucifer the first time on Gods orders, they would be a problem because they want to destroy the world that Cas has grown to like and they would be able to rally the forces of heaven and hell against him, since he was not really God that would have been a problem. Castiels sole purpose was to get enough souls to become more powerful than an archangel, SN never said this archangel is more powerful than this one, all it ever said is that they are absolute and groups them all together as the same kind of angels, fans made the assumption that one must be more powerful than the next simply because one is Lucifer and most people erroneously believe that Lucifer is as close to God level as you can get with the expection of Michael when in fact there a other angels that closer to God then those two. As i said all it proves is that he was not really God, but his goal was to be more powerful than archangels and he achieved it, the look on Raphs face when he started to glow is more proof that he was too powerful, archangels are not afraid of other archangels, only God because he is more powerful than them, and Cas although not God was more powerful than them.

#34 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

how will they win if they can't kill them? They at best have one weakness that does not effect them all the same way and is only a minor issue, archangels have 3 weaknesses that leviathan would know about and leviathan can kill angels without aid. Other than warping up house cleaner and pissing them off, what other tatic can archangles use? There is nothing to suggest they have the power to eclipse the Sun (to at least try and put them back into Purgatory), not really, at the end of the day even Lucifer calls Gabs feats of reality warping parlor tricks, and they are not real, which is why his fake angel blade can't really kill angels, if they warp reality so absolutely he would be able to make a soda can turn into a viable weapon of heaven.

#35 Posted by CapitolPunishment (2303 posts) - - Show Bio
@LordOfAllHumans: There is no evidence stating that levithan have this "knowledge" on how to destroy an arch angel, or even a regular angel. The writers of the show needed to get Castiel off the show so they could focus on the brothers. Ever think that the unknown number of levithan's inside Castiel simply destroyed his vessel? I still have my doubts that he is dead, even if he is, when he/his vessel was destroyed there were an untold number of levithan inside of him, who he let in himself. Sorry, I don't see any form of angel inviting countless levithan inside there vessel. Also, I am pretty sure the arch angels knew of levithan. Regular angels never met God or have even seen him. The arch angels were raised by God and had a "father/son" relationship with him so to speak. I doubt God would had held such information back from his children. Arch Angels stomp until levithan show something impressive.
#36 Edited by Strider92 (16823 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: The op hasn't stated win conditions so incapcitations can count as a win. Saying Angels not knowing anything about Leviathan's is an assumption based on the fact that the only Angel to come into contact with them thus far has been Castiel and he's a young Angel. So we can't really say that the older and higher ranked Arc-Angels know nothing about them because we haven't seen them in the current series. I see this going 2 ways under the current circumstances: either the way I first described or the Leviathan simply banishing the Angel every time it tries to take him down.

#37 Posted by CapitolPunishment (2303 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Actually SN did state that Michael was much more powerful than Raphael. Those were almost the exact same words Castiel used when telling Dean about Michael. It was in the episode that Raphael first took on a human vessel.

#38 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

they have this knowledge because they know everything Cas knows from being in his vessel. he did not let them in, he took in the souls of purgatory and the leviathan hitched a ride, when he tried to get them out, the proved to be too strong, even when he had the power of millions of souls it was the leviathan that were taking over. If archangels knew about leviathan then raph would have sensed that it was more than just monster souls inside Cas, all he saw was an angel that was more powerful than an archangel and he was shocked. it's pretty clear that even the archangels believe that they were the fisrt creations, if that was not the case then Lucifers entire reason for being would be in vain, he hates humans because he thinks they are mistakes that God created after he created angels. You people talk like archangels are a different species, they just angels more powerful than rank and file angels but angels none the less and have the same weaknesses, Zach can do anything an archangel can do with enough backing from Heaven, and an ordinary angel that can get his hands on enough souls can beat and kill them the way the can beat and kill angels. God is protrayed in SN as the worst father in the universe, it would not surprise me at all if he never told them about leviathan considering all the other things he doesn't do.

#39 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

@Capitolpunishment you're right I forgot about that, my point is that there is still no margin to gauge how much more powerful he is to provide evidence that this makes Michael stronger than "God" Cas. @Strider like i said before good points, but the leviathan as stated by Death are too clever for that, it's why God locked them up, he had no problems with having one of his children beat the hell out of another to prove a point, if he made archangels with the ability to kill leviathan there would be no reason in locking them away, he could just as easily send his four sons to take them on then and there. One thing we know for sure is that God loves his angels and he loves his humans, he considered his first children mistakes, that is why i doubt the archangels knew about them, somebody like Lucifer would have used this information during his campaign of disobedience, it would cause more doubt in Heaven if angels knew that their all powerful all knowing father made a mistake. in the end leviathan have more ways to incapcitate and even kills archangels, we know for sure that they have this information, we don't know for sure that angels know anything about them or a weakness that was stumbled upon by humans eons after their creation. We don't know how many of them exist but we know that they can overcome and kill powerful angels without spells and weapons. As far as we know Cas is dead and there is nothing to suggest that they only destroyed his vessel and not him as the killing of an angel has always been done by attacking said angel while in a vessel. the only angel that didn't die as a result of his vessel being harmed was Michael, but he also was in charge of heaven and all it's powers and for all we know God brought him back after the same way he has done for Cas twice.

#40 Edited by Strider92 (16823 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: But Lucifer hate's Demons and they where his creations and he still loves his brother's and his father (the whole apocalypse is a "temper tantrum").

So assuming he did know about them would he really try and free something that God himself said where poisonous and untrustworthy? If Lucifer hates Demons and Pagan's so much I doubt he would let out something from Purgatory he would despise even more, not to mention might even rival him on power.

Also if I remember rightly Castiel was aware of Pugatory's existance and Crawly definitely was (not where it was or what it was of course, but they knew of it) so I think it's safe to assume Lucifer has at least heard about it as he's older than the 2 of them.

So lets assume Lucifer doesn't know the Levaithan's are in it. Why didn't he try and find it to release all the his Demons that had died? They are beings that he can control and there is an unlimited amount of them in there for him to create an army? I think it may have been because he had an idea of what else was down there and didn't want the competition not to mention something he'd hate beyond belief.

#41 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

Purgatory is the afterlife for monster souls, demons go to hell. it seems pretty clear that when ghost and demons are "killed" again that they simply cease to be. if when demons died they went to purgatory Crowley would not have needed to torture monsters, he could have just experimented on demons since he is the king of hell. knowing about purgatory and knowing about leviathan are two different things, even Eve was older and more powerful than angels and they had no idea she existed and as far as we know she is not a leviathan. Lucifers very nature would lead him to release them if he knew about them, his plan was to prove God made mistakes, so why not free his biggest ones to prove his point? Lucifer created demons as an act of rebellion to prove the imperfections in humanity, and that over time the so called perfect human soul can be corrupted. He created the yes, but he hates them because they are human souls, humans souls were given more rights than angels and this where his hatread comes from, the apocalypse may be a trantrum, but all in all it was the plan from the start by God, until he changed his mind, by helping Sam overcome Lucifer.

#42 Edited by Strider92 (16823 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Fair point I forgot Demons went to hell and not Purgatory. Younger creatures than Lucifer eg: the Alpha Monsters or the Dragon's both knew about Purgatory, heck the Dragons even knew how to open it so why shouldn't someone like Micheal or Lucifer who out-date them by god knows how long not have even heard of it? It's very unlikely they hadn't.

#43 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

They know about purgatory because their mother lived there and they are all psychically connected to her it's anybodies guess if they knew about this prior to her being released because she began to speak to them and set that up to find out why Crowley was torturing her children. When it comes to dragons they have alway been known to be keepers of vast knowledge and secret. i don't think the archangels were unaware of purgatory, I just don't think they knew about everthing that was in it, like Eve and leviathans, whom are older than them. most beings in the show with the expection of the ones that were in purgatory and Death thought there were only souls of humans that became monsters down there.

#44 Edited by Strider92 (16823 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

i don't think the archangels were unaware of purgatory, I just don't think they knew about everthing that was in it, like Eve and leviathans, whom are older than them.

This brings me back to to the point you made earlier. "If Lucifer knew of Purgatory why didn't he set them free?" Well there can only be one reason if he had heard of Purgatory the only possible reason he could have for not wanting to try and use its contents against God is that he didn't want to because he had an idea of what might be lurking in there.

Every Vampire and Shifter came from an Alpha right? I doubt that Micheal and Lucifer (Lucifer easpically) wouldn't have looked into where they came from. Lucifer created Demons and its highly unlikely that when Vamps and other creatures began to appear he simply said "Awww sod it, they probably just made themselves." I believe Castiel even said Angels monitor everything that happens on earth. How could the arrival of a mulitutude of new Supernatural creatures simply slip under the radar. It obviously didn't because Cas is well aware of the existance of Vamps and shifers.

This is my theory (of course I can't back it up completely but i'll give it a go). Lucifers goal with the Apocalypse was to destroy the world right? Leviathan's need Humans to live (like most other supernatural creatures). So if he did set them free to spite God they would most likely turn against him due to the fact that the Apocalypse would destroy their existence. So not wanting the extra aggravation of having them on his case trying to stop him he decided not to free them not to mention he most likely hates their guts.(As I said this is just speculation on my part)

#45 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

The creations of the alphas would not automatically alert somebody to leviathan in purgatory, purgatory is locked and is a prison that later become an afterlife, since it takes various rituals to even open it, is it no safe to assume that Eve was not always there? Cas may have said that but we know from watching the show that angels only really moniter things of interest to them and not everything because there were just too many things that they didn't know about. Cas made this comment but was not aware how old or powerful Eve was, nor did he know how to get in, or that another native of purgatory had been on earth for years without anybody knowing, IMO the angels have very high opinions of themselves and think they know everything out of sheer arrogance. Eve can turn their powers on and off as she pleases, because as she said she is older and knows how to do such things, it's not far fetched to believe that she simply hid that information from angels, as they can be tricked and bloked from seeing things if you have the right mojo. It's also a fact in SN God apparently left Heaven and the angels to do their own thing after he was done creating and punishing rouge angels, for all they knew the monsters were a new creation of his, magic is very real in SN and some humans have become monster even through science so that is how monsters can be around and not raise an issue or alert anybody to what is in purgatory other than their souls. The pagan gods claim to have been on earth before angels and had numbers in the billions, Lucifer confirms that they (pagans) were on Earth first, this would suggest that there was a time when heaven wasn't always that invested in Earth, Deaths comments suggests that there are other planets with life on them, and we know regardless of how powerful they are angels are not omniscient. That would be a great theory except that leviathan have been locked up since before the creation of soul so they would have never even seen a human up close before now, i don't think they need them to survive because they have been alive and well in purgatory for eons without them, they are just the lastest food craze, in actuality leviathan are not even really physical beings it may be the soul that they are really eating and we all know that the human soul is the most valuable thing in SN.

#46 Edited by Strider92 (16823 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Oh i'm in agreement that Cas had no idea about Eve or the Leviathan's. He's basically SN's whipping dog he seems to lose every fight and not know much about whats going on (I was actually happy when he absorbed the souls I was thinking "Yay Cas is actually gonna beat someone for once!").

Some Humans became monsters through science? What episode was that? I don't remember anything but supernatural enemies not experiments gone, wrong maybe I missed an episode O.O.

Assuming you're right and Eve did hide their existence from the Angels. When Vamps and Shifters started popping up everywhere one of them must have investigated due to the fact they know they exist and when the Angels suddenly found they just appeared out of nowhere would they really just drop it? Imo no, why would they its to important. There's no way that the Higher ranked wouldn't have investigated how and why the creatues where appearing. You said it yourself that Angels are arrogant. What are the chances that if they discovered something they couldn't explain, they wouldn't put out all the stops to find out because of their superiority complex.

#47 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

That doctor that made himself immortal through science was a monster, back when Sam was trying to find a way to get Dean out of his contract. Angels were not even allowed to go to Earth for quite a while and the last time any of them were there was 2000 years ago. Angels are arrogant because they feel they are second to God when it comes to power, they also don't question him or is actions, because that is rebellion and gets them demoted, if monsters appeared on Earth suddenly is it not safe to assume they saw it as another random act of God and therefore would not question it, just as they don't seem to question the existence of pagan gods. Most of them either flat out don't like humans or are indifferent why would they care if monster suddenly appear and start eating the "talking apes"? And as stated it wouldn't matter if they invesitgated before or not if Eve has the power to hinder them. IMO if any one angel knew about these beings then it would be common knowledge in Heaven. Another reason i don't think they would be interested in inviestigating them is because until the coming of the Apocalyspe they have shown no interest whatsoever in Earth, even in the future where Sam said yes and Dean didn't, the Angels simply left Earth alone because it was no longer important to them, this was a future seemingly created by the angels and in this future they show Dean that Earth is not as important to them as it is to us so they just bailed on it. It brings me back to Deaths comments, the universe is vast and full of planets and earth is barely out of it's diapers this would suggest that there are other places of interest if the Earth is lost. Just wanted to add that because of what Lucifer did to human souls basically turning them into monsters, for all we know Heaven thought that monsters were his doing.

#48 Posted by Strider92 (16823 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Ah I'll yield to that. You're right they do tend to show little to no interest in earth at all even though Cas said they where supposed to be "monitoring" it. I guess we'll have to wait until episode 17 apparently Cas is back with a new attitude. Maybe once this series nears its end we'll find out how much the Higher ranking Angels really know about the Leviathan's. Anyway i'm gonna call it a day for this topic I had fun in this debate lol was good to find someone who came back with some good intelligent replies.

-Strider out

#49 Posted by CapitolPunishment (2303 posts) - - Show Bio
@LordOfAllHumans said:
 

they have this knowledge because they know everything Cas knows from being in his vessel.

That is pure speculation. the vessel of an Angel is aware of what has transpire while the Angel is inside of him. If you want to speculate, I can further speculate that the leviathan simple gained the knowledge of the vessel in inhabited. there was no evidence ever shown that they gained angelic knowledge of any kind. 
 
It is still also open to debate is Castiel is even dead, there was no body, just a coat and if they destroyed his body it could have just been the vessel that dies, not the angel. Even weakened to the point of almost death Cas was able to walk his vessel away from Bobby, Dean and Sam then walk off into the water which would imply even in his weakened stae he had enough control to resist an untold number of leviathan from killing the boys.
 
As I also stated earlier, the writers wanted to find a way to get Cas off the show because every time something bad happened they would just call on him and he was becoming tp popular of a character. The show is based on the brothers, not Castiel so they has to use some kind of PIS to get him off the show, at least for the season. (I'm willing to bet he comes back at some point this season.)

he did not let them in, he took in the souls of purgatory and the leviathan hitched a ride,

He took them in under his own accord, regardless of if he knew about them or not he sucked everything in from purgatory. Death clearly stated that Castiel "swallowed them". They did not forcefully gain entry to his vessel.  (Explained in the video below)


when he tried to get them out, the proved to be too strong,

They held on when Castiel was casting the souls back into purgatory, Cas was also at an extremely weakened state at this point and could not even stand. 

even when he had the power of millions of souls it was the leviathan that were taking over.

This is also speculation, he was also under the weight of millions of evil souls that wanted to get out. It was never stated that the leviathan alone were overwhelming Cas and that the other monster souls were helping him. Everything inside of him was evil and wanted out, plain and simple.
    
  
 

If archangels knew about leviathan then raph would have sensed that it was more than just monster souls inside Cas, all he saw was an angel that was more powerful than an archangel and he was shocked.

He/she didn't say or express much of anything at all. Raphael uttered one sentence and then was killed (see below). He may have or may not have seen the Leviathan inside of him but we will never know. Do you really think that the arch angels that were raised by God himself would not be told of the old beasts that were cast off into purgatory? That would be silly considering the Angels were created by God to keep humanity safe, you would think there father while raising them would have mentioned such things. There is no doubt in my mind that Michael and Lucifer would have knowledge of such things, I'm sure Gabriel and Raphael also had the same knowledge. The lesser angels were not raised by God and I see no reason for one of the older brothers to tell the younger foot soldiers of such things, one may have sought it out for the power of the souls. 
  
  
 

 
 

 it's pretty clear that even the archangels believe that they were the fisrt creations, if that was not the case then Lucifers entire reason for being would be in vain, he hates humans because he thinks they are mistakes that God created after he created angels.

That is just opinion. If he knew they were sealed away by God and god told them that they were abominations I don't see why he would be jealous of them. He had a hatred of humans because God told them to worship and protect the humans, his love for humanity was greater than his love for any angel and that infuriated Lucifer. They is why he turned humans into demons. 
 
 

You people talk like archangels are a different species, they just angels more powerful than rank and file angels but angels none the less and have the same weaknesses, Zach can do anything an archangel can do with enough backing from Heaven, and an ordinary angel that can get his hands on enough souls can beat and kill them the way the can beat and kill angels. God is protrayed in SN as the worst father in the universe, it would not surprise me at all if he never told them about leviathan considering all the other things he doesn't do. 

I'm not even sure what you are trying to get at here. It was shown quite a few times that arch angels are far superior to normal angels. The higher tier ones such and Michael and Lucifer are at the top of the food chain in that regards, Raphael has what was given to him by his superiors, same a Gabriel. Michael because he has access to all the souls in heaven and can use them as he sees fit (I.E empowering other angels), Lucifer because of the souls in hell. Why do you think Lucifer and also his minions were on a soul gathering contest with heaven for the past 10,000 years at least? There are far more souls in either heaven or hell than what are in purgatory. Purgatory has 30-40 million, whereas either heaven or hell has billions. Really, what do you think the human/monster ratio is? You do the math and get back to me.
#50 Posted by HolySerpent (12793 posts) - - Show Bio

How is this a debate. Leviathans are barely above the demons. And when I say "barely above", I mean since all the top demons are dead.