Aquaman vs. Wonder Woman

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comicfan11

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#51  Edited By comicfan11

@spiderbuck: Yeah I agree.

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Pokeysteve

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#52  Edited By Pokeysteve

@comicfan11 said:

@Pokeysteve: It was mentioned in the AQ comics If I remember correctly that Triton was stripped from his "godhood" or smthing along those lines.

Also I want a speed feat because her speed is granted by Hermes. That doesn't translate to swimming speed automatically. In the same way that AQ is superfast on land but nowhere near as fast as he is in water.

Translating her land and flying speed to automatic Aquaman level speed underwater is completely speculative and not supported by the character's (WW) history.

It's like me saying that because AQ has Mach 5 speed swimming he automatically can move that fast on land.

And the point is that because AQ is definitely faster underwater he can take WW out with the trident.

And this is not counting anything that he can summon to distract her.

Plus for people unconvinced that WW and AQ are closer to strength than most think there is also the Flashpoint fight (apart from the JL 15 brief fight) where AQ had the advantage underwater and then was defeating WW on land (before she was saved by Captain Thunder).

And Flashpoint for the duration of the event WAS the main DCU. It was the same characters with the same powers, but with some changed events due to Zoom. But AQ and WW still had the same powers.

Oh. I haven't read anything from his solo series. Just JL stuff. I'll have to check that out. Any good recommendations on where to start?

No but see I mean "swimming" speed specifically. Why does she need to swim fast? It's not like she has to chase him down first. He'll probably attack her and when he does there is no way he can match her reflexes. The water should slow her down but not enough to give him an advantage.

How do you figure her flying speed wouldn't translate to water? She won't need to actually swim. And just like with reflexes she'll be slower but not dramatically so. Any reaction feats for Aquaman underwater? The sharks and things with big teeth will make a great distraction.

And you mentioned JL 15. I hope that's not New 52.

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spiderbuck1

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#53  Edited By spiderbuck1

@Pokeysteve said:

The water should slow her down but not enough to give him an advantage.

Strongly disagree!

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#54  Edited By comicfan11

@Pokeysteve: Aquaman underwater has insane reflexes. He has created Flash like funnels by moving his hands so fast. That should be enough as far as reflexes go. It's mentioned in the comic that they are Flash like. And he has other feats like the standard dodging multiple lasers or outrunning multiple machine gun fire (on land).

As for her flying through water, i don't buy it until i see it in a comic. It's possible but hasn't happened in 70+ years of publication, so it's just speculation. I see her speed underwater as superhuman but nothing close to Aquaman.

AQ has an advantage because he can get out of WW reach and then stab her. It's game over after that. that's where speed come's to play.

As far as AQ comic go, I'd suggest anything by PAD. It starts with Atlantis Chronicles (not AQ story but the whole history of DC Atlantis), then Time and Tide and then PAD's Aquaman monthly (with 5 Annuals). Also Grant Morisson's JLA (plus the Crisis of Conscience storyline), JLA Classified (issues 1-3, 50-54 and the Sacred Trust storyline), JLA Earth 2, Brave & Bold #32 (with Etrigan), and the two parter with King Shark in Sword of Atlantis (it's a flashback story with the original AQ and not the clone thing that was AQ at the time).

The Veitch series (later Pfeifer) had some good moments but nothing spectacular (the Sube Diego storyline was the high point)

The JL 15 I mentioned is from DCnU. Why?

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lilben42

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#55  Edited By lilben42
No Caption Provided

@comicfan11: Yeah but I was showing this is what would happen she would grab him out of the water. WW is stronger, faster, more skilled, more durable, more expirienced, more powerful etc.... She will win this with ease.

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comicfan11

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#56  Edited By comicfan11

@lilben42: I agree she would win on land but not underwater.

There Aquaman is faster, can summon anything he wants to distract her and can literally oneshot her with the trident.

Plus as I already posted the difference between WW and AQ strength wise is not as big as people think (see again AQ koed Olympian aka Greek Superman with Hercules strength and invulnerability). Durability wise AQ is much more durable to piercing attacks at least and durable enough to take some punishment from WW (also proven in comics).

Also in JL 15 AQ shows his superspeed and reflexes by tackling WW after she attacked him from behind.

And he is much faster than that underwater.

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lilben42

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#57  Edited By lilben42

@comicfan11: Thats great but WW is way better than him tactically and a better fighter. She would never get to the water because she knows what he can do. Probably would lasso him in the water and pull him out. The strength difference is very big.

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#58  Edited By comicfan11

@lilben42: The second fight takes place in the ocean. WW has to catch AQ first to try to pull him out of the water, and I see AQ koing her first as much more viable.

And the strength difference I already posted scans that disprove it being very big.

Especially in the Nu DCU.

You keep saying WW is much stronger but their fights so far don't support that (AQ 16, JL 15, Flashpoint 4). Do you have any other fight to post? Because so far there's no support for that. AQ has also knocked Martian Manhunter on his @ss twice and sent Superman flying. In Flashpoint AQ is clearly having an advantage against WW on land.

So where is this huge strength difference?

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lilben42

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#59  Edited By lilben42

@comicfan11: WW likes to match her opponents which is why with the fight with Medusa she didn't just kill her. She showed that in the fight with Big Barda and does it out of honor.

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#60  Edited By comicfan11

@lilben42: LOL

In Flashpoint she was fighting for her life and the fate of the entire world. Are you suggesting she was holding back?

And in AQ 16 she was convinced AQ was attacking the surface world.

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lilben42

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#61  Edited By lilben42

@comicfan11: Yeah honor goes a long way my friend. You can tell when she isn't holding back like the fight with Genocide, or All out Superman. I've only seen her go all out a few times.

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comicfan11

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#62  Edited By comicfan11

@lilben42: So WW would rather die at the hands of the person she hates most in the world (Flashpoint Aquaman who she thought had killed Hypolita) and let her entire race get wiped out in the process not to mention AQ taking over the world rather than, you know fight back?

Is that what you are saying?

Because this was also dissproven when she beheaded Mera (a character she didn't even have a specific grudge against up to that point).

Not to mention other random people she killed in the series.

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18hunt

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#63  Edited By 18hunt

@18hunt said:

@aranido said:

I think you guys are totally wrong. Aquaman is faster and stronger in his element (Water) than WW. Sorry guys, cuz WW has a huge fan club :).

Aquaman already took WW down more than one time : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGW7BkKlqgM

Now in Land, probably is goes either way.....

:)

LIKE A BOSS

Stilll think this, everyone is delusional, but god bless you all!

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Outside_85

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#64  Edited By Outside_85

@comicfan11 said:

Not to mention other random people she killed in the series.

Cept Trevor, whom we could assume she just neutered :)

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#65  Edited By SNascimento

@comicfan11: I don't think anybody was winning on Flashpoint. They were evenly matched there.

WW was bold enough to storm Arthur's flagship even underwater but decided to flee once her breathing mask was gone. And on land, it could go either way, although Diana seem to have the upper hand in previous fights. (because of Arthur's scars).

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#66  Edited By comicfan11

@Outside_85: LOL true.

@SNascimento: AQ was pushing her back and was ready to blind her, before she was saved. She was loosing ground panel after panel in their final fight.

The scar happened when AQ was trying to explain to her that he didn't kill Hypolita, then an explosion happened and she drew her sword and attacked AQ while he was still trying to prevent war. It was a sucker attack from WW against a non fighting AQ.

What you suggest (having the upper hand in a fight, hence the scar) never happened.

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#67  Edited By SNascimento

@comicfan11: I see. I assumed it was in a fight.

But my point in the fight stands... in the last panel before Shazam's explosion he trident was already not in WW's face. Even if it was, that's hardly decisive. It is like the page you talked about in which WW is holding AQ. Posting it and saying WW defeated AQ there is incorrect, seeing how he breaks free in the next page.

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#68  Edited By comicfan11

@SNascimento: My point is that they are at least close in strength, which is proven by facts. And she only gets free when AQ gets distracted by the lightning behind him. The last panel when AQ is not distracted has the Trident centimeters from her eyes.

I already said that WW would win more fights on land, but she would loose in the ocean.

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#69  Edited By SNascimento

@comicfan11: True enough. I actually believe WW and AQ would be a interesting fight. Both are strong and skilled. But my point was that from the panel with AQ's trident close to Diana's face you cannot imply that without Shazam he would have hit her. One could argue that they were already the way the they were in the last panel before the explosion. Let me make my argument more concrete:

No Caption Provided

This is the same fight, and considering what Diana is saying in the third panel is actually before the one in the other page.

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#70  Edited By comicfan11

@SNascimento: That's from a different book (WW and the furies), the same fight though. And still doesn't disprove that at some point in the fight AQ had an advantage.

Either way AQ and WW seem pretty even, on land which was my point all along.

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#71  Edited By SNascimento

@comicfan11: Point taken. Let's just hope together that they do this fight justice in the upcoming Flashpoint animated movie. Shall we?

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#72  Edited By comicfan11

@SNascimento: Agreed of course. I have high hopes for it and hope it will be a little longer than the usual 70 mins this time.

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Bane_of_sith

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#73  Edited By Bane_of_sith

WW on land ,,,,,Aquaman in the water by a slim margin

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#74  Edited By Charetter115

Aquaman takes both.

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Pokeysteve

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#75  Edited By Pokeysteve

@comicfan11 said:

@Pokeysteve: Aquaman underwater has insane reflexes. He has created Flash like funnels by moving his hands so fast. That should be enough as far as reflexes go. It's mentioned in the comic that they are Flash like. And he has other feats like the standard dodging multiple lasers or outrunning multiple machine gun fire (on land).

As for her flying through water, i don't buy it until i see it in a comic. It's possible but hasn't happened in 70+ years of publication, so it's just speculation. I see her speed underwater as superhuman but nothing close to Aquaman.

AQ has an advantage because he can get out of WW reach and then stab her. It's game over after that. that's where speed come's to play.

As far as AQ comic go, I'd suggest anything by PAD. It starts with Atlantis Chronicles (not AQ story but the whole history of DC Atlantis), then Time and Tide and then PAD's Aquaman monthly (with 5 Annuals). Also Grant Morisson's JLA (plus the Crisis of Conscience storyline), JLA Classified (issues 1-3, 50-54 and the Sacred Trust storyline), JLA Earth 2, Brave & Bold #32 (with Etrigan), and the two parter with King Shark in Sword of Atlantis (it's a flashback story with the original AQ and not the clone thing that was AQ at the time).

The Veitch series (later Pfeifer) had some good moments but nothing spectacular (the Sube Diego storyline was the high point)

The JL 15 I mentioned is from DCnU. Why?

Whoa....you know your Aquaman!

Creating Flash like funnels is not a reflex. I'm talking reaction time. Like that ever so popular scan of WW snaring Amazo before he finishes his syllable. I though AM was bullet proof? Why is he dodging gunfire? I've only read New 52 Aquaman's solo stuff.

Your skepticism on her flying in water is fair enough. Until we see it though, him being faster underwater is also just an assumption. I think she will have faster reaction time underwater so him getting her with the Trident isn't likely. She should be more worried about the sharks.

I mentioned the New 52 because those feats aren't relevant here. Flashpoint probably isn't either.

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#76  Edited By comicfan11

@Pokeysteve: Thx.

It still scratches his skin, drawing some blood, but it's more like an annoyance.

WW being close to AQ in speed underwater is an assumption without any feats.

Going 10000 feet per second is an actual AQ feat. Until you provide a feat WW is nowhere near as fast as AQ. Feats > speculation.

AQ preboot also in an old JL issue mentions he is faster than Superman uderwater, for what it's worth.

In Flashpoint btw WW gets attacked underwater by a Kraken. She does not show any superhuman speed or reflexes. It further proves my point that she is indeed much slower underwater than AQ.

It also shows how outmatched she would be if AQ summoned 4 or 5 of those things, while he still attacks her at superspeed.

Why are Nu 52 feats irrelevant? The thread starter didn't specify the version of the characters.

And even if they aren't, Flashpoint most certainly is (being the actual DCU with a few changes and not an "alternate reality" or "future timeline", same thing that Marvel is doing with Age of Ultron)

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aranido

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#77  Edited By aranido

AQ will take the second scenario very easy. On land can go either way depend on how close the water is.

Now if you put AQ in the desert.....hehehe we will have fried fish.

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#78  Edited By SUNMAN

1. Wonder Woman wins, but Aquaman makes her work for it don't low ball Arthur here

2. Close fight. Wonder Woman can still pull out a victory, but if Aquaman plays it smart he is capable of wining in the ocean

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#79  Edited By Pokeysteve

@comicfan11 said:

@Pokeysteve: Thx.

It still scratches his skin, drawing some blood, but it's more like an annoyance.

WW being close to AQ in speed underwater is an assumption without any feats.

Going 10000 feet per second is an actual AQ feat. Until you provide a feat WW is nowhere near as fast as AQ. Feats > speculation.

AQ preboot also in an old JL issue mentions he is faster than Superman uderwater, for what it's worth.

In Flashpoint btw WW gets attacked underwater by a Kraken. She does not show any superhuman speed or reflexes. It further proves my point that she is indeed much slower underwater than AQ.

It also shows how outmatched she would be if AQ summoned 4 or 5 of those things, while he still attacks her at superspeed.

Why are Nu 52 feats irrelevant? The thread starter didn't specify the version of the characters.

And even if they aren't, Flashpoint most certainly is (being the actual DCU with a few changes and not an "alternate reality" or "future timeline", same thing that Marvel is doing with Age of Ultron)

I'm not worried about her speed underwater. He's probably faster. I'm saying her ability to block his attacks and her striking would be almost the same as on land. The same way throwing a punch or whatever underwater for you or me would be slower it would be for her too. Since she is so fast on land they'd probably be about even underwater. That's just deductive reasoning.

New 52 feats are irrelevant because this thread is 3 1/2 years old. The New 52 and even Flashpoint didn't exist yet. It would have gone by their current versions with their standard weaponry.

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lilben42

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#80  Edited By lilben42

@comicfan11: Beheading someone doesn't mean she is going all out. You don't know if Aquaman would have hit her though, anything could have happened.

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#81  Edited By comicfan11

@lilben42:She was fighting FOR HER LIFE, the FATE OF HER ENTIRE RACE and the fate of the ENTIRE WORLD against the man who killed her mother and believed had betrayed her.

Are you seriously suggesting that she was holding up? I'm talking about the fight in Flashpoint.

Read it again please and tell me do you seriously believe that WW was holding back?

By your logic AQ was also holding back, since you know he also has honour being a king and all and had feelings for Diana at some point. There's also specific mention in a previous issue that AQ is usually holding back, so I guess AQ also didn't care about his life, his entire race and the fate of the world.

Maybe it was a friendly fight?

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#82  Edited By lilben42

@comicfan11: Looked at the fight, pretty sure she was holding back. She was holding back her powers, though she was fighting to almost the best of her abilities. She was trying to talk reason most of the time to Aquaman so of course she was holding back.

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iamthewolf88

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#83  Edited By iamthewolf88

Round 1. WW

Round 2. Aquaman

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#84  Edited By comicfan11

@lilben42: That's your opinion of course, which is not supported in the comics (Flashpoint).

You say you are "pretty sure she was holding back". So where s the evidence?

Can you post a scan from Flashpoint where she states she is holding back? Or give an issue number from Flashpoint where WW states that she is holding back against AQ?

Because again on panel evidence>speculation. And up to this point you only speculate.

And I also have to add that if she was holding back (as you alone in this thread claim) against a powerful opponent, who she hates and tries to kill her and her entire race , then Flashpoint WW is possibly one of the most idiotic and unrealistic characters ever (since she chooses to hold back, why exactly? Due to honor? the same honor that led her to invade and claim Britain killing millions of citizens unprovoked? not to mention that the whole "honor" thing is never brought up in Flashpoint and is only your claim against the actual comics)

And I'm sure she is not.

The scans prove otherwise, but you seem to be unable to accept that, you know Aquaman is that powerful (which again is disproven multiple times in this thread)

So in sum you have nothing to support your speculation, unless you can provide a scan or an issue number.

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lilben42

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#85  Edited By lilben42

@comicfan11: She was trying to talk him out of fighting. Yes she was holding back why would she try to talk him out of fighting then go all out she obviously doesn't want to fight him.

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#86  Edited By comicfan11

@Pokeysteve: Ah I see, i didn't check the date. Still AQ as a character has roughly similar feats pre and post reboot (eg preboot he koed Olympian postboot he has the fight with JL, preboot he lifted part of Sub Diego postboot he lifted the ocean liner, preboot he had 10000ft per second postboot he has the >Mach 5 feat). It's just that postboot he is featured more prominently in the DCU.

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#87  Edited By comicfan11

@lilben42: The ONLY time she tried to talk to him was when she went underwater. At one point WW even says "why did I even bother talking to you?" and proceeds to attack AQ. They fought and AQ had her running for her life. Then they fight again on New Themyscyra where AQ is about to kill herwhile the world is about to end and her people are being slaughtered right next to her while her island is being destroyed and somehow, without any proof or evidence in the comics, you still support she was holding back.

Unbelievable.

You know what. I'll do the same.

AQ didn't kill WW because he was holding back. The whole time.

See how easy it is?

I'm still waiting for you to provide any proof to your claim, but you only argument so far is "I believe..." without any actual proof.

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lilben42

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#88  Edited By lilben42

@comicfan11: On the land fight she said "Arthur listen to me were being decieved" trying to reason with him. If Wonder Woman was going all out you would see her using her speed, strength, and all her weapons and strategy. My proof is that she was trying to reason with him while they were fighting and wasn't using all her powers. I never said WW would beat him under water but I thinmk she would get out of the water or try to.

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#89  Edited By comicfan11

@lilben42: I see.

So where is the mention that she is holding back? Because even in her own series (not the main Flashpoint book) she is still fighting and trying to cleave AQ with her sword despite what she says.

Also this scene is actually an error on the part of the writer most likely. WW already told AQ about Orm and WW's uncle deceiving them, and already stopped trying to reason with AQ in the fight that took place underwater in a previous issue.

And still no matter what is said, you cannot claim something without it being mentioned in the comic. Superman, Thor, Orion, even Aquaman have instances in comics where they say they hold back. But so far you have not provided on panel evidence.

What you believe WW can and would do in a battle, greatly differs from what is actually shown on panel in 3 separate books nonetheless.

So until you can provide actual evidence of WW holding back against a character she actually wants to kill we don't have much to say.

Apart from that WW would most likely take a majority on land and AQ would take a majority in the water.

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Pokeysteve

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#90  Edited By Pokeysteve

@comicfan11 said:

@Pokeysteve: Ah I see, i didn't check the date. Still AQ as a character has roughly similar feats pre and post reboot (eg preboot he koed Olympian postboot he has the fight with JL, preboot he lifted part of Sub Diego postboot he lifted the ocean liner, preboot he had 10000ft per second postboot he has the >Mach 5 feat). It's just that postboot he is featured more prominently in the DCU.

I'd put Preboot Aquaman at a level or two below WW. People remember him as a joke and don't realize he's kind of a bad ass. I wasn't a big AM fan till I started reading his New 52 stuff. Really liking that book.

"Apart from that WW would most likely take a majority on land and AQ would take a majority in the water." You said this to lilben and I can agree with it.

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#91  Edited By comicfan11

@Pokeysteve: Yeah the current series is really good.

Of course WW was in general more powerful overall preboot, nobody is doubting that.

And I'm glad we agree.

Cheers

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#92  Edited By Pokeysteve

@comicfan11: Always great to agree. Good talking to you.

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#93  Edited By lilben42

@comicfan11: Yes but it would be close underwater that is what I'm saying.

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#94  Edited By Franchise1590

@Outside_85 said:

In a book not written by Geoff Johns, Wonder Woman, both rounds.

This.

Johns is a great writer but he is extremely bias towards certain characters and against others. Aquaman is going to have PIS feats under his pen that make him out to be stronger than history or logic dictates.

I'll be fair and say WW takes the first round with ease and Aquaman takes the second round with ease. But she should beat AQ 8/10 times.

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aranido

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#95  Edited By aranido

He should beat WW 8/10 times, if we go by logic dictates

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aquaman98

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I think it's a tie IMO their strength levels are even but If they are both bloodlusted I'd say WW even though I love Aquaman.

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CheeseSticks

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#97  Edited By CheeseSticks

Round 1 : tie, i don't know

Round 2 : Aquaman with a pretty large margin

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dondave

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#98  Edited By dondave

Round 1 Wonder Woman

Round 2 Aquaman

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HeartsUnity

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Lol at the fools who think WW can take AM in water. Maybe if were talking like backyard pond or fountain but anywhere deep enough to swim AM stomps. Obviously Diana wins on land in any situation.

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jojjimbo

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WW in both.