tough battle... I may actually side with Apollo and Captain Atom though... I think Apollo would do pretty well against Captain Marvel... and I think Captain Atom can defeat Green Lantern Hal Jordan in an epic battle
"tough battle... I may actually side with Apollo and Captain Atom though... I think Apollo would do pretty well against Captain Marvel... and I think Captain Atom can defeat Green Lantern Hal Jordan in an epic battle "
No way CA is gonna carrie his team i think hes gonna put up a hell of a fight against both if hes not holding back but i dont see Apollo doing much
I think it could go either way. I see Hal being able to drain apollo and i see cap being able to drain the ring of Hal's leaving one of the teams to gang up. Who ever's team has their partner drained first or faster loses. Ill come back to this.
"tough battle... I may actually side with Apollo and Captain Atom though... I think Apollo would do pretty well against Captain Marvel... and I think Captain Atom can defeat Green Lantern Hal Jordan in an epic battle "
No way CA is gonna carrie his team i think hes gonna put up a hell of a fight against both if hes not holding back but i dont see Apollo doing much "
I think you are underestimating Apollo... he is more powerful than you think...
Team 1 wins in a decent fight, Cap Atom could KO Hal while Apollo holds off Billy. Now it's a 2 on 1 situation. Or he could drag both of them into the QF and well, use your imagination.
I think it could go either way. I see Hal being able to drain apollo and i see cap being able to drain the ring of Hal's leaving one of the teams to gang up. Who ever's team has their partner drained first or faster loses. Ill come back to this.
Atom could also power up Apollo. Then Hal is the only one drained and Apollo will stay at the height of his power for the whole fight, which is now a two on one.
Apollo is very durable, IIRC his best durability feat was withstanding an attack with the force of 10 Hiroshimas. Atom has already beaten Hal Jordan.
when was that? that he took the force of 10 Hiroshimas. Even so thats not very impressive.
When fighting the Renegade Doctor
He takes the force of 10 Hiroshima's to the head for as long is takes Midnighter to attack, get punted into a mountain, have a conversation with Jack Hawksmoor, and for Jack to teleport them all to New Mexico. That's maybe a minute and it takes less time than that for him to get back up and take the Doctor to the sun. (The above is also a nice showing of Door's moving to catch a target who is standing still, Jack's gravity control, and The Doctor's ability to time travel during combat.)
@Buckshot: yeah i remember. Still Apollo's feats aren't on par with his status as a powerhouse. Loved that arc though and i miss Jerone!
No one that I know of is punching Thor with the force of 10 atom bombs yet he gets rocked by people's punches. You think Thor would shrug off 10 nukes hitting him at once? How about if their destructive output was concentrated on him? How about if the force were concentrated in his head? How about if it kept up for a minute? I think not getting killed by that and only being downed momentarily by it lives up to the title of powerhouse.
I think it could go either way. I see Hal being able to drain apollo and i see cap being able to drain the ring of Hal's leaving one of the teams to gang up. Who ever's team has their partner drained first or faster loses. Ill come back to this.
Atom could also power up Apollo. Then Hal is the only one drained and Apollo will stay at the height of his power for the whole fight, which is now a two on one.
Wouldn't you think Atom powering up Apollo be more around the lines of them having prep? Even with that still lies the question to whether Atom could pull that off before Hal drains Apollo, which is unlikely due to Hal showing superb reaction timing( in the nanoseconds actually and without amping) and the ring being able to respond much faster than that.
And when concerning Lanterns I see the word 'drain' get tossed around alot but - How many times have they lost to a foe who didn't have a device specifically built to absorb Green Lantern energy? Because by my count there are less instances of Hal having his ring absorbed by 'randoms' than there are of characters like Surfer getting drained by generics but that never gets brought up in his battles(which is pretty absurd if you ask me).
Not to mention Hal has already shown the ability to will his energy back:
@CitizenBane said:
Apollo is very durable, IIRC his best durability feat was withstanding an attack with the force of 10 Hiroshimas. Atom has already beaten Hal Jordan.
It probably should be mentioned that in Hal's loss to Captain Atom he was far from 100%. Hal stated that his ring was running out of power during the fight because he hadn't had a chance to recharge it and the time limit was almost up. At the end of the fight, he threw everything he had left in his ring at Captain Atom, while Captain Atom fired a blast back with all of his power, an energy duel that Atom won. It was made clear in the fight that Hal's ring was almost out of juice. AND Hal was physically weakened not having slept for 2 days and earlier having trouble with things he'd normally do no problem (like hold up a building).
Just sayin that there battle against each other is a poor assessment to who would win both 100%.
@CitizenBane said:
@difficlus said:
@CitizenBane said:
Apollo is very durable, IIRC his best durability feat was withstanding an attack with the force of 10 Hiroshimas. Atom has already beaten Hal Jordan.
when was that? that he took the force of 10 Hiroshimas. Even so thats not very impressive.
In the Earth Inferno arc. 10 Hiroshimas isn't impressive? Hal has lost to far less than that.
And Hal has also tanked much more than that like Black Holes, Supernovas, planets exploding around him, moon vaporizing blasts, several hundred megaton explosions ect.
Anyways, Team 2 takes this , theres really no denying that Apollo is the weaklink and I don't see Atom being able to solo this.
I think it could go either way. I see Hal being able to drain apollo and i see cap being able to drain the ring of Hal's leaving one of the teams to gang up. Who ever's team has their partner drained first or faster loses. Ill come back to this.
Atom could also power up Apollo. Then Hal is the only one drained and Apollo will stay at the height of his power for the whole fight, which is now a two on one.
Wouldn't you think Atom powering up Apollo be more around the lines of them having prep? Even with that still lies the question to whether Atom could pull that off before Hal drains Apollo, which is unlikely due to Hal showing superb reaction timing( in the nanoseconds actually and without amping) and the ring being able to respond much faster than that.
And when concerning Lanterns I see the word 'drain' get tossed around alot but - How many times have they lost to a foe who didn't have a device specifically built to absorb Green Lantern energy? Because by my count there are less instances of Hal having his ring absorbed by 'randoms' than there are of characters like Surfer getting drained by generics but that never gets brought up in his battles(which is pretty absurd if you ask me).
Not to mention Hal has already shown the ability to will his energy back:
Why would Atom powering up Apollo be like prep? Atom controls energy, all he'd have to do is output a ton of sunlight and Apollo would be amped. That's no more prep than GL draining him, and it's far more likely since Atom knows Apollo and knows how to amp him up and that more sunlight would make him more powerful. And even if it were a race (I don't see why it would be btw) that Atom loses its not like if Hal drains him then Atom can no longer give him energy. Atom can't always make Apollo stronger.
I don't think other people's awareness of how often Surfer gets drained is really relevant. Also, your claim that it's never brought up is incorrect as that's something I do regularly.
I think it would be pretty tough for Hal to will his energy back to him if Apollo takes that opportunity to kill him, something no one would be expecting because that's not how anyone else in this fight thinks.
@Buckshot: I didn't mean that it would be like prep but require it. I just don't see how they would have the time to conjure up strategy like that mid battle against these two, I mean whats also stopping Hal from deputizing CM into a Green Lantern? Its pretty simple also not mention Hal has done it several times - Hal has deputlized Wally West, Hal has deputized Alan Scott, Hal gave a ring to freaking Green Arrow, Hal's ring split itself off in "Rebirth", etc. -, point is thats more of a strategy move that they can't put to use mainly due to Hal & CM having better combat speed showings(meaning Apollo would be drained in that time or Atom would be blitzed by Captain Marvel).
No... its not more likely that Atom would know to amp Apollo then it is Hal knowing to drain him, The rings have prodigous scanning abilities. they give real time information about their foes' natures and weaknesses and incoming attacks on spot, which is a defiant advantage. And in this match it's really all about who reacts first, after Hal drains Apollo it's not like he or CM will just wait till Atom restores Apollo's power(especially seeing as Atom would be busy dealing with the latter), no there going to be able to easily knock Apollo unconscious while he's defenseless, leaving Atom. Apollo is screwed on either matchup.
I was really just using the Surfer thing as a comparison( since he's pretty much the self proclaimed best energy manipulator on this site) but you did make a claim that Atom could drain Hal's ring and I would just like some reasons why/how? Yes, lanterns have been drained before but only by plot devices but even that applies to all characters from Surfer to Thor to Atom. And I by no means meant that you make these claims regularly if ever, my fault if it came off as that way.
As for the last part its more likely for that to happen vice versa, due to Hal and CM being faster.
@YoungGunna: I don't see it as requiring prep any more than GL taking energy away from Apollo. It would basically be the same thing except that the energy would be flowing in a different direction. Hell, Atom has already facilitated the amping up of Apollo during a fight. It's not a brilliant strategy especially if he sees Hal attempt to do the opposite. The rings may scan well, but Apollo wouldn't have to find out information like Hal would since he's actually seen it done before. Why is Hal having to scan Apollo to find out something Atom has known because he's done it before, an advantage? I didn't claim Atom would drain Hal, god_spawn did, I just didn't disagree with it since Atom is supposed to be able to manipulate every type of energy. My post was less about Atom draining Hal and more about him being able to do the opposite of what Hal could do to Apollo. As for speed, Captain Marvel is the only one I know to have significant reaction speed. The others don't generally display (and I don't recall examples of) above normal speed except in travel, and that's not the same as reflexes.
I mean whats also stopping Hal from deputizing CM into a Green Lantern? Its pretty simple also not mention Hal has done it several times - Hal has deputlized Wally West, Hal has deputized Alan Scott, Hal gave a ring to freaking Green Arrow, Hal's ring split itself off in "Rebirth", etc. -
What good would this be, anyway? One would have to have a sufficient amount of will to use the ring effectively, so how can we be sure that Captain Marvel would be competent enough to use it? Even when he gave a ring to Ollie, he struggled just to form an arrow out of willpower. I don't see this being of any use.
@YoungGunna said:
point is thats more of a strategy move that they can't put to use mainly due to Hal & CM having better combat speed showings(meaning Apollo would be drained in that time or Atom would be blitzed by Captain Marvel).
Captain Marvel rarely, if ever, displays any combat speed showings. So, it can be argued that he wouldn't use his combat speed at first or at all. As Hal, I don't recall seeing this, either. Just flying around in battle, blasting your enemies doesn't account for combat speed showings, unless you've seen something I haven't seen.
As far as Atom being blitzed, Atom has reacted to blitzes before (like he did against Majestic in his first fight), tagged the Ray who was in mid-flight (and he normally flies close to or at light speed), has displayed some combat speed against Ultraa, and on three or more occasions, he has also blitzed his opponents, also. It's a two-way street.
@YoungGunna said:
but you did make a claim that Atom could drain Hal's ring and I would just like some reasons why/how? Yes, lanterns have been drained before but only by plot devices
This doesn't mean that Atom cannot pull this off. Many people think that the rings can't be drained because no one has ever tried. How does that hold up, considering the fact that Captain Atom is able to absorb and manipulate all forms of energy? You can only claim that it isn't possible if it's been attempted but also a failure.
The energy he absorbed from Parallax in Zero Hour is the same energy in Hal's ring.
@YoungGunna said:
It probably should be mentioned that in Hal's loss to Captain Atom he was far from 100%. Hal stated that his ring was running out of power during the fight because he hadn't had a chance to recharge it and the time limit was almost up. At the end of the fight, he threw everything he had left in his ring at Captain Atom, while Captain Atom fired a blast back with all of his power, an energy duel that Atom won. It was made clear in the fight that Hal's ring was almost out of juice. AND Hal was physically weakened not having slept for 2 days and earlier having trouble with things he'd normally do no problem (like hold up a building). Just sayin that there battle against each other is a poor assessment to who would win both 100%.
Around that time, the rings retain a full charge until the end of the time limit. You should read the comic after their fight. The time limit ran out after Hal was defeated. Thus, he retained a full charge during the fight. As far as being physically weakened, he stated that he didn't get any sleep the night before because he was looking for that alien. However, this didn't seem to matter in his fight with Atom in the following issue because he showed no signs of fatigue.
@YoungGunna: I don't see it as requiring prep any more than GL taking energy away from Apollo. It would basically be the same thing except that the energy would be flowing in a different direction. Hell, Atom has already facilitated the amping up of Apollo during a fight. It's not a brilliant strategy especially if he sees Hal attempt to do the opposite. The rings may scan well, but Apollo wouldn't have to find out information like Hal would since he's actually seen it done before. Why is Hal having to scan Apollo to find out something Atom has known because he's done it before, an advantage? I didn't claim Atom would drain Hal, god_spawn did, I just didn't disagree with it since Atom is supposed to be able to manipulate every type of energy. My post was less about Atom draining Hal and more about him being able to do the opposite of what Hal could do to Apollo. As for speed, Captain Marvel is the only one I know to have significant reaction speed. The others don't generally display (and I don't recall examples of) above normal speed except in travel, and that's not the same as reflexes.
Ok, I see, didn't know Atom has actually amped Apollo in the past, all I remember was Atom over dosing him with sun radiation or something. Even if amped whats still stopping Hal from absorbing Apollo's energy then immediately k.o. him? Hal being able to exploit Apollo's weakness is just to much of an edge, the rings scanning /tactical abilities works in a manor similar to Surfer's, Mother box's , and Worldmind's own, it's pure information, you get an answer to whatever question you pose.
Well here is two of the best reaction I've seen from a Lantern, both in the nanoseconds range - First is Hal's own then the latter being Stel who turned himself into antimatter a nanosecond before he got destroyed.
Gallery
@Static Shock
@Static Shock said: What good would this be, anyway? One would have to have a sufficient amount of will to use the ring effectively, so how can we be sure that Captain Marvel would be competent enough to use it? Achilles? Billy can draw tons of inner strength from him aka willpower.
Even when he gave a ring to Ollie, he struggled just to form an arrow out of willpower. Green Arrow struggling to form constructs has nothing to do with CM, all that shows is exactly how weak willed Ollie really is. I don't see that comparison being able to hold up considering Billy has godly inner strength and wisdom to draw on.
I don't see this being of any use. Why not? Random, no name folks who just got there rings that day have displayed feats from sealing black holes to diving through stars unharmed to space/time manip. and when Hal's ring split itself Marty displayed insane feast like beating the JLA and recreating Oa( including oan tech, ecosystems & all) CM would have clear advantages over them.
Captain Marvel rarely, if ever, displays any combat speed showings. So, it can be argued that he wouldn't use his combat speed at first or at all. Well if Billy knew that he wouldn't have a chance of beating Atom unless he blitz's him then why not? Or are you saying that he doesn't have any combat speed showings? And I'm not saying CM beats Atom by blitzing him, but it sure as hell gives Hal time to completely exploit Apollo... leaving Atom.
As Hal, I don't recall seeing this, either. Just flying around in battle, blasting your enemies doesn't account for combat speed showings, unless you've seen something I haven't seen. I was more of referring to Hal being able to preform multiple attacks with his ring before Atom or Apollo could comprehend due to Hal displaying reaction timing in the nanoseconds and his ring being able to respond/attack at light speed( shown when John was scanning and sniping several sectors away, Hal being able to send beams multiple times the speed of light through space ect.).
As far as Atom being blitzed, Atom has reacted to blitzes before (like he did against Majestic in his first fight), tagged the Ray who was in mid-flight (and he normally flies close to or at light speed), has displayed some combat speed against Ultraa, and on three or more occasions, he has also blitzed his opponents, also. It's a two-way street. Lanterns have reacted to Flash's on multiple occasions and wasn't Majestic holding back there first fight? Was it stated that Ray was moving at lightspeed when Atom tagged him? What are Ultraa's reflexes like?
This doesn't mean that Atom cannot pull this off. Many people think that the rings can't be drained because no one has ever tried. How does that hold up, considering the fact that Captain Atom is able to absorb and manipulate all forms of energy? Its not that Atom couldn't but I don't see draining as winnable tactic mid battle, you would need to out will Hal( which Atom can't do) as the ENERGY ITSELF, not just the ring, responds to will power cues.
You can only claim that it isn't possible if it's been attempted but also a failure.
Dr. Light, a being who controls magical god lightning (outside of the electromagnetic spectrum) just as easily as sunlight, was once able to control Kyle's constructs. But, of course, he was also UNABLE to control or absorb Hal's energy on one occasion, in v3. It was only until after he got trapped into Hal's ring for comicbook months to years that he was able to absorb Lantern rings.
Black Hand made a device that specifically absorbed the energy of a Green Lantern. It was made specifically with that purpose in mind, not just to absorb all different types of energy. Hal has flatly overloaded Black Hand in a number of instances, so there is that. There's also an instance where Hal resisted Krona when he had control over the entire Emotional Spectrum, I'll post the scan later when I have the time.
The energy he absorbed from Parallax in Zero Hour is the same energy in Hal's ring. I'm not doubting whether Atom could absorb energy blasts or whatever but that he can't drain Hal's ring while there battling. Anyways that doesn't really matter since no one was resisting being drained which Hal would be doing.
Around that time, the rings retain a full charge until the end of the time limit. Where is that stated though? Around that same time a rookie was unable to preform various actions due to having a depleted ring.
You should read the comic after their fight. The time limit ran out after Hal was defeated. Thus, he retained a full charge during the fight. He was in a rush though, how could you fight to full potential knowing your energy is going to run out?
As far as being physically weakened, he stated that he didn't get any sleep the night before because he was looking for that alien. However, this didn't seem to matter in his fight with Atom in the following issue because he showed no signs of fatigue. I have to take another look at both issues but I believe both happened the same day, thus the ring running low on charge in both.
Achilles? Billy can draw tons of inner strength from him aka willpower.
Green Arrow struggling to form constructs has nothing to do with CM, all that shows is exactly how weak willed Ollie really is. I don't see that comparison being able to hold up considering Billy has godly inner strength and wisdom to draw on.
He still lacks experience with the ring, regardless, so I don't see him being able to do much with it.
@YoungGunna said:
Why not? Random, no name folks who just got there rings that day have displayed feats from sealing black holes to diving through stars unharmed to space/time manip. and when Hal's ring split itself Marty displayed insane feast like beating the JLA and recreating Oa( including oan tech, ecosystems & all) CM would have clear advantages over them.
Because of what I stated above.
@YoungGunna said:
Well if Billy knew that he wouldn't have a chance of beating Atom unless he blitz's him then why not? Or are you saying that he doesn't have any combat speed showings? And I'm not saying CM beats Atom by blitzing him, but it sure as hell gives Hal time to completely exploit Apollo... leaving Atom.
He doesn't have enough for me to think that it was be something he'd use right off of the bat. I've only seen one speed showing from him, in was in a non-canon book.
@YoungGunna said:
Lanterns have reacted to Flash's on multiple occasions and wasn't Majestic holding back there first fight? Was it stated that Ray was moving at lightspeed when Atom tagged him? What are Ultraa's reflexes like?
I didn't say anything about the Lanterns. I'm comparing Atom to CM as far as blitzing goes. Majestic was trying to significantly hurt Atom, but at the same time, there's a likely chance that he underestimated him. It wasn't stated how fast the Ray flies, but he's shown to fly at those speeds in many other showings. Ultraa's reflexes are unclear. But, what does any of this have to do with anything? You stated that Captain Marvel could blitz Atom, and I'm providing examples of Atom blitzing and reacting to blitzes. The Lanterns aren't relevant.
@YoungGunna said:
I was more of referring to Hal being able to preform multiple attacks with his ring before Atom or Apollo could comprehend due to Hal displaying reaction timing in the nanoseconds and his ring being able to respond/attack at light speed( shown when John was scanning and sniping several sectors away, Hal being able to send beams multiple times the speed of light through space ect.).
The example with John seems like something he'd do with stealth or something, not something he'd in the heat of battle. Shooting beams that move at speeds faster than light has nothing to do with combat speed or reaction speed.
@YoungGunna said:
Its not that Atom couldn't but I don't see draining as winnable tactic mid battle, you would need to out will Hal( which Atom can't do) as the ENERGY ITSELF, not just the ring, responds to will power cues.
Atom's power is based on will, also.
@YoungGunna said:
Dr. Light, a being who controls magical god lightning (outside of the electromagnetic spectrum) just as easily as sunlight, was once able to control Kyle's constructs. But, of course, he was also UNABLE to control or absorb Hal's energy on one occasion, in v3. It was only until after he got trapped into Hal's ring for comicbook months to years that he was able to absorb Lantern rings.
Black Hand made a device that specifically absorbed the energy of a Green Lantern. It was made specifically with that purpose in mind, not just to absorb all different types of energy. Hal has flatly overloaded Black Hand in a number of instances, so there is that. There's also an instance where Hal resisted Krona when he had control over the entire Emotional Spectrum, I'll post the scan later when I have the time.
Dr. Light's ability to absorb energy is limited in comparison to Captain Atom's. I'm also willing to bet that Atom's ability is more potent that some device.
@YoungGunna said:
He was in a rush though, how could you fight to full potential knowing your energy is going to run out?
Did you read what Hal said? It needs recharging after 24 hours. That said, he had enough at time before his ring ran out on it's time limit. The ring wasn't depleted until after the fight.
@YoungGunna said:
I have to take another look at both issues but I believe both happened the same day, thus the ring running low on charge in both.
well for the first time we agree. Apollo is extremly weak link to be more precise. At his regular power level he is weaker than combined strength of 13 000 000 people (evident when Godhead with this strength level stomped him), and that's below 1 000 000 tons. In the same issue he was amped extremly by a binary star and done this. Feat which Static posted. But he only had 1 good shot at Godhead who at that time had strength of 70% of earth's population (he might go to that strength level later in issue i'm not really sure, but let's say at that time he had). So even massivly sun dipped Apollo is below 1 000 000 000 tons. Even in case we say that all of the 70% of earth's population are peak human which can lift 800lbs or 360kg over their heads, he would be below 1 800 000 000 tons. That's way way below Captain Marvel.
His best speed feat is crossing the half of the world in 30 seconds which puts him at 667 km/s - massivly hypersonic speed. Again way way below Cap. Marvel.
About his durability. he was almost killed by force of 10 Hiroshimas. That force is equal to explosion of 180 kilotons of TNT or 180 000 tons of TNT. Little boy which destroyed Hirshima had energy between 13 and 18 kilotons. For example Tsar Bomba had energy of 50 megatons of TNT or 50 000 000 tons of TNT so it was 2777.7 times stronger than Little Boy. Apollo would easily be killed by Tsar Bomba for example. Also not that force of 10 Hiroshimas =/= actual explosion of nuke which would have heat(hotter than Sun) and radiation. So we really don't know if Apollo can endure nuke. He can do the Sun bath, but Sun is his power source so that's not the same. Anyway his greates durability feat is again way, way below cap Marvel.
As seen he is totlay outclassed by Captain Marvel and would easily go down. Hal and Cap are more than enough to defeat Atom.
People seem to base Apollo's strength only on fact that he was stated to be Majestic's class, but that for sure doesn't mean that he is as strong as Majestic, and his actual feats and limitations he has confirm that.
@Static Shock said:
@drkhwk2001 said:
"
Why do people always under estimate Apollo?
"
It somewhat difficult to take a powerhouse seriously when he doesn't have enough feats... However....
@Static Shock: He still lacks experience with the ring, regardless, so I don't see him being able to do much with it. What does experience matter when I just listed big time feats done from Lanterns with none? But I guess sealing black holes and recreating entire planets is no big deal, right? Good luck on that one. Regardless of experience the ring still can function on commands meaning Apollo would get drained by CM or Hal, making them useful.
Because of what I stated above. Which didn't mean anything..
He doesn't have enough for me to think that it was be something he'd use right off of the bat. I've only seen one speed showing from him, in was in a non-canon book. I'll list some later, there defiantly better than the ones listed for Atom.
I didn't say anything about the Lanterns. I'm comparing Atom to CM as far as blitzing goes. Majestic was trying to significantly hurt Atom, but at the same time, there's a likely chance that he underestimated him. Point was reacting to random blitz's( even from speedsters) isn't saying much, characters with human reflexes have done the same, show me Atom doing this on a consistent basis then I'll find it as credible.
It wasn't stated how fast the Ray flies, but he's shown to fly at those speeds in many other showings. i know what you were stating but if it didn't say how fast Ray was traveling when Atom tagged him then how could one deem that impressive?
Ultraa's reflexes are unclear. If Ultraa has no type of reflexes feats, then how is blitzing her impressive?
You stated that Captain Marvel could blitz Atom, and I'm providing examples of Atom blitzing and reacting to blitzes. I'll give it to you for providing examples, problem is none of them are impressive.
The example with John seems like something he'd do with stealth or something, not something he'd in the heat of battle. Shooting beams that move at speeds faster than light has nothing to do with combat speed or reaction speed. You entirely missed what I was saying, I didn't say Hal would be snipping anyone but that the ring can fire at FTL speeds and Hal would be quicker on the draw due to him actually showing worth wild reflexes. Point being, that team 2 gets the first move resulting in the doom of Atom and Apollo.
Atom's power is based on will, also. What does that have to do with anything? Practically all heroes powers are will based. If Atom can't out will Hal, then he's not draining his ring, simple as that.
Dr. Light's ability to absorb energy is limited in comparison to Captain Atom's Dr Light being limited in comparison has nothing to do with this, he's still a superb energy manipulator who couldn't absorb the ring. You specifically stated that " You can only claim that it isn't possible if it's been attempted but also a failure. ", which was obviously proven wrong.
I'm also willing to bet that Atom's ability is more potent that some device. Than you'd be wrong on that bet, there's no way that Atom would have a better chance absorbing a ring than what you referred to as "some device" that was created by beings who have an intimate knowledge of power rings to specifically drain that type of energy. But I guess Atom is more potent than Krona to, right?
Did you read what Hal said? It needs recharging after 24 hours. That said, he had enough at time before his ring ran out on it's time limit. No.... you stated earlier that the rings of that time had full charge until it completely ran out, I want to know where's that stated at?
The ring wasn't depleted until after the fight. The scan you should didn't prove that it ran out after the fight but only that it was dead.
Or, the time limit was nearing its end. I was referring to that being the same day that Hal was in a weakened state from not having slept in days. That was far from a credible win at all.
Hal still has to ask about doing something that Atom would know to do without having to ask. The images you posted to support Hal's reaction time aren't very helpful. How old is the first? Regardless, it seems to show travel speed, not reflexes. The second is performed by someone that's not even human. One races reaction times don't necessarily equal another's just because they wear the same jewelry.
What does experience matter when I just listed big time feats done from Lanterns with none? But I guess sealing black holes and recreating entire planets is no big deal, right? Good luck on that one. Regardless of experience the ring still can function on commands meaning Apollo would get drained by CM or Hal, making them useful.
It doesn't make sense as to how people are able to pull this off when they have no experience with the ring. Smells like PIS to me. Hal, Kyle, and the like did nothing like this when they first became Lanterns. How is it that inexperienced people are doing things that veteran Lanterns do?
@YoungGunna said:
Which didn't mean anything..
It meant a lot, if you take into account that rookie Lanterns don't normally pull off feats like that.
@YoungGunna said:
Point was reacting to random blitz's( even from speedsters) isn't saying much, characters with human reflexes have done the same, show me Atom doing this on a consistent basis then I'll find it as credible.
Any examples of Captain Marvel actually blitzing anyone on a consistent basis?
@YoungGunna said:
i know what you were stating but if it didn't say how fast Ray was traveling when Atom tagged him then how could one deem that impressive?
For the same reason that tagging the Flash is impressive, even though it's not stated on panel how fast he's moving.
@YoungGunna said:
If Ultraa has no type of reflexes feats, then how is blitzing her impressive?
Ultraa is male. The fact that Atom blitzed him isn't about how impressive it is, and that's not why I brought it up. My point was that Atom has shown to blitz his opponents, too. Ultraa just happened to be one of those people. My issue is that Atom can blitz, too.
Superman has blitzed a lot of people that have no superior reflex showings. If we went by how impressive his ability to blitz was, blitzing wouldn't be a valid tactic for him.
@YoungGunna said:
I'll give it to you for providing examples, problem is none of them are impressive.
How impressive you think they are is not my problem. I was showing that Atom can and has blitzed his opponents before, and like Marvel (since you claimed he could blitz Atom), Atom is also open to the same tactic. Thing is, you haven't listed any examples of Marvel blitzing anyone yet. At the same time, I haven't seen any examples of Captain Marvel reacting to blitzes, either.
@YoungGunna said:
You entirely missed what I was saying, I didn't say Hal would be snipping anyone but that the ring can fire at FTL speeds and Hal would be quicker on the draw due to him actually showing worth wild reflexes. Point being, that team 2 gets the first move resulting in the doom of Atom and Apollo.
I didn't miss anything. You had one thing (combat speed) mixed up with another (firing energy blasts at speeds faster than light). It is what it is. Even with his ability to fire blasts that move that quickly, they can still defended against with energy shields. His aim isn't as quick as his attack is, and Captain Atom has been able to block Hal's attacks before.
@YoungGunna said:
Dr Light being limited in comparison has nothing to do with this, he's still a superb energy manipulator who couldn't absorb the ring. You specifically stated that " You can only claim that it isn't possible if it's been attempted but also a failure. ", which was obviously proven wrong.
It has a lot to do with it, since Dr. Light is only able to absorb energies based on the electromagnetic spectrum. Captain Atom's ability to absorb energy covers that and all other forms of energy, even those along the Unified Field. Just because he couldn't absorb it doesn't mean that Captain Atom cannot. The difference in power level is the issue here.
@YoungGunna said:
Than you'd be wrong on that bet, there's no way that Atom would have a better chance absorbing a ring than what you referred to as "some device" that was created by beings who have an intimate knowledge of power rings to specifically drain that type of energy. But I guess Atom is more potent than Krona to, right?
Considering the fact that Atom has been stated to absorb all forms of energy, I would have to think so vs. some device. Never mind Krona.
@YoungGunna said:
Practically all heroes powers are will based. If Atom can't out will Hal, then he's not draining his ring, simple as that.
Not all superheroes have powers based on will. The fact that Atom's power is based on his will and that he has no limits means that Hal has his work cut out for him as far as keep his energy from being drained from the ring. Plus, Hal's main method of attack is energy blasts and the like. Captain Atom could just absorb those, making things easier.
@YoungGunna said:
The scan you should didn't prove that it ran out after the fight but only that it was dead.
Hal was still able to use the ring right before he was KO'ed. Thus, it wasn't depleted until after when he said it was dead and needed to be charged every 24 hours. What that tells me is that during the fight, Hal's ring was still within the 24-hour time limit. If not, the ring would have been depleted during the fight.
@YoungGunna said:
I was referring to that being the same day that Hal was in a weakened state from not having slept in days. That was far from a credible win at all.
My point is that during the fight, he showed no signs of fatigue, or anything that would suggest he wasn't competent enough to fight. That same night after Atom and Hal kiss and make up, Hal had enough energy to fight off some thugs without his powers. Where was his fatigue?
Hal still has to ask about doing something that Atom would know to do without having to ask. The images you posted to support Hal's reaction time aren't very helpful. How old is the first? Regardless, it seems to show travel speed, not reflexes. The second is performed by someone that's not even human. One races reaction times don't necessarily equal another's just because they wear the same jewelry.
I'm not doubting whether Atom could power up Apollo before Hal drains him anymore but that whats still stopping Hal from draining Apollo even with his amp?
If your referring to that being Pre Crisis, its not - btw Hal wasn't effected by the crisis, they already had a in story explanation on how he was on the Anti matter universe's moon at the time and plenty of other Post Crisis references to back that up, just saying -. As for the scans, the Hal instance is both a travel and reaction feat, the latter being Hal being able to track/save the ship nanoseconds before the creatures drained it. As for Stel, your probably right he was being shoved face first into anti matter by another lantern, and the transmutation didn't take full effect in the nanosecond he had to react.
@Static Shock: It doesn't make sense as to how people are able to pull this off when they have no experience with the ring. Smells like PIS to me. Hal, Kyle, and the like did nothing like this when they first became Lanterns. How is it that inexperienced people are doing things that veteran Lanterns do? Actually Kyle as a rookie was pulling plenty of stunts like these, have to check on Hal though. And when concerning Lanterns about raw power feats it's less about experience and more about willpower.
Any examples of Captain Marvel actually blitzing anyone on a consistent basis? Can I give you examples of Marvel blitzing, yes - can give you Marvel blitzing on a consistent basis, no. So, fair enough but I still see no reason why he wouldn't if he didn't have any other choices of beating Atom though.
For the same reason that tagging the Flash is impressive, even though it's not stated on panel how fast he's moving. But in the case of Lanterns, there's multiple instances of them being able to tag Flash which is pretty impressive due to more consistency. Not mention tagging Flash is just overall more impressive than tagging Ray.
Ultraa is male. The fact that Atom blitzed him isn't about how impressive it is, and that's not why I brought it up. My point was that Atom has shown to blitz his opponents, too. Ultraa just happened to be one of those people. My issue is that Atom can blitz, too. Fair enough.
Superman has blitzed a lot of people that have no superior reflex showings. If we went by how impressive his ability to blitz was, blitzing wouldn't be a valid tactic for him. Superman has also blitzed people with a ton of reflex showings to though not mention him having proven superb reflexes of his own.
How impressive you think they are is not my problem. I was showing that Atom can and has blitzed his opponents before, and like Marvel (since you claimed he could blitz Atom), Atom is also open to the same tactic. Yeah, but if Atom hasn't blitzed anyone with any kind of reflex showings then how could you say he could sussesfully blitz characters who have actually shown some?
Thing is, you haven't listed any examples of Marvel blitzing anyone yet. At the same time, I haven't seen any examples of Captain Marvel reacting to blitzes, either. Honestly don't feel like searching for examples of so fair enough.
I didn't miss anything. You had one thing (combat speed) mixed up with another (firing energy blasts at speeds faster than light). No... I even mentioned I wasn't referring to that type of combat speed concerning Hal.
Even with his ability to fire blasts that move that quickly, they can still defended against with energy shields. Show me Atom putting up shields before self-guided faster than FTL blasts hit him?
His aim isn't as quick as his attack is, and Captain Atom has been able to block Hal's attacks before. The ring has already shown it can lock on targets and there were defiantly circumstances in there fight.
It has a lot to do with it, since Dr. Light is only able to absorb energies based on the electromagnetic spectrum. Thats not true, Light easily manipulated the Zeus's magical lightning from Cassie's lasso.
Captain Atom's ability to absorb energy covers that and all other forms of energy, even those along the Unified Field. Just because he couldn't absorb it doesn't mean that Captain Atom cannot. The difference in power level is the issue here. I see Light having just as good of a shot absorbing Lanterns ring due to him actually having experience doing so and there energy being perfectly within his "limited" scope of manipulation.
Considering the fact that Atom has been stated to absorb all forms of energy, I would have to think so vs. some device. Atom being stated to absorb all forms of energy does not give him a better chance than a device that we have already seen drain Lantern rings dry easily. The fact is, that plot device was built to specifically drain green lantern rings and Hal overloaded it on multiple occasions through will.
Not all superheroes have powers based on will. The fact that Atom's power is based on his will and that he has no limits means that Hal has his work cut out for him as far as keep his energy from being drained from the ring. Okay then can you give me any Atom feats specifically stated through willpower then? Hal has immense feats in that area like in Green Lantern #67 where Hal took Krona out, Krona was wearing seven different rings(with control over the entities). Hal's will overrode the 'no-killing a guardian policy' that was imposed on his capabilities. I don't see Atom being able to touch Hal in the willpower department. Plus, Hal's main method of attack is energy blasts and the like. Captain Atom could just absorb those, making things easier. So your telling me Atom has never been harmed by energy blasts in the past? Not to mention Hal is a very proficient energy absorber himself who has manipulated energy outside of the EM spect. multiple times, it works both ways.
Hal was still able to use the ring right before he was KO'ed. Thus, it wasn't depleted until after when he said it was dead and needed to be charged every 24 hours. What that tells me is that during the fight, Hal's ring was still within the 24-hour time limit. If not, the ring would have been depleted during the fight. I'm not saying that the ring was dead before he got K.Oed but that it being extremely low on charge which limited it's effectiveness( I don't believe that Hal's ring was at full power until it was absolutely out of charge) . Hal has tanked moon vaporizing blasts around that time without flinching and his durability is pending on concentration which he had fully when the attack happened and a simple explosion knocked him unconscious? That right there right there tells me that the ring being low on charge or him being physically weakened had effected him. I also have scans showing of a Lantern unable to preform a couple of tasks due to his ring being low on energy BEFORE Rebirth happened, proving that the ring didn't( or didn't always) have full charge for 24 hours.
My point is that during the fight, he showed no signs of fatigue, or anything that would suggest he wasn't competent enough to fight. Hal didn't have the time to show any fatigue, he was running low on his time limit and fighting against a top tier opponent. There battle happened the same day of him stating he hadn't slept for days and he had alot of trouble maintaining a building for a couple of hours, the guy stated he was going to black out in the process.
That same night after Atom and Hal kiss and make up, Hal had enough energy to fight off some thugs without his powers. Where was his fatigue? Because maybe he had the time to sleep it off from being knocked unconscious by Atom.
Actually Kyle as a rookie was pulling plenty of stunts like these
Specifically?
@YoungGunna said:
Can I give you examples of Marvel blitzing, yes - can give you Marvel blitzing on a consistent basis, no. So, fair enough but I still see no reason why he wouldn't if he didn't have any other choices of beating Atom though.
Just like I'd see no reason why Captain Atom wouldn't react to his ability to blitz or blitz him, offensively.
@YoungGunna said:
But in the case of Lanterns, there's multiple instances of them being able to tag Flash which is pretty impressive due to more consistency. Not mention tagging Flash is just overall more impressive than tagging Ray.
Because it's the Flash, right? If that's what you're going to say, I don't really buy it, since people less powerful than Lanterns have tagged the Flash, too.
@YoungGunna said:
Superman has also blitzed people with a ton of reflex showings to though not mention him having proven superb reflexes of his own.
Such as, besides Wonder Woman? Very few of those people have those reflex showings, while several others don't. There have even been other characters that lack reflex showings (Konvikt and Eiling) and have stop Superman's blitzes before.
@YoungGunna said:
Yeah, but if Atom hasn't blitzed anyone with any kind of reflex showings then how could you say he could sussesfully blitz characters who have actually shown some?
Characters like who? Captain Marvel, who probably hasn't shown any?
@YoungGunna said:
No... I even mentioned I wasn't referring to that type of combat speed concerning Hal.
The problem is that it's not really combat speed. Cyclops has shown to fire his optic beams at light speed on occasion. Is that combat speed, too, or is it just his beams moving at that speed?
@YoungGunna said:
The ring has already shown it can lock on targets and there were defiantly circumstances in there fight.
I'm aware of the ring can do, but it doesn't mean that Atom can't defend himself. The only Lantern that I've seen do this was John, programming his ring to hit anything that moves faster than sound or whatever. Thing is, John and Hal are not the same. As far as their being any circumstances, I don't recall any. Hal had enough energy to fight Atom, and there were no signs of fatigue, either. Even if there were circumstances, it wouldn't prevent Atom from defending himself accordingly.
Anyway, I was referring to a difference instance. A more recent one.
@YoungGunna said:
Show me Atom putting up shields before self-guided faster than FTL blasts hit him?
Ah. I see what you did there. You didn't say self-guided the first time. I was referring to Captain Atom blocking energy attacks from Hal when they aren't self-guided, when Hal just moves to aim his ring and fire. Even if the blasts were just faster than light, Hal's ability to aim at his target isn't as fast as the attack itself and Atom could just time his aim and contest the shot that way. At the same time, I don't recall Hal often using self-guided attacks or attacking with beams faster than light.
It's just like Static putting up an electromagnetic shield just as gunmen move to aim their guns at him.
@YoungGunna said:
Thats not true, Light easily manipulated the Zeus's magical lightning from Cassie's lasso.
Yes, which further proves my point. Lightning is electromagnetic in nature (under the principles of electromagnetic force). Plus, it gives off visible light, which is radiation from the electromagnetic spectrum. All of this allows him to manipulate it. So, yes. It's true.
How do you think Light was able to manipulate Kyle's constructs? Green willpower gives off light, too.
@YoungGunna said:
I see Light having just as good of a shot absorbing Lanterns ring due to him actually having experience doing so and there energy being perfectly within his "limited" scope of manipulation.
Atom's scale of manipulation and energy absorption is higher, though. His source is the Quantum Field, and all energy in the universe comes from there, even the energy of a Oan ring.
@YoungGunna said:
Atom being stated to absorb all forms of energy does not give him a better chance than a device that we have already seen drain Lantern rings dry easily. The fact is, that plot device was built to specifically drain green lantern rings and Hal overloaded it on multiple occasions through will.
The difference between the device and Atom is that Atom generally doesn't have a limit to what he can absorb, as long as he regulates his absorption rate. The only reason for the device is because the Black Hand himself needed something to combat an Oan ring. It doesn't mean other people or things cannot absorb energy from the ring.
@YoungGunna said:
Okay then can you give me any Atom feats specifically stated through willpower then? Hal has immense feats in that area like in Green Lantern #67 where Hal took Krona out, Krona was wearing seven different rings(with control over the entities). Hal's will overrode the 'no-killing a guardian policy' that was imposed on his capabilities. I don't see Atom being able to touch Hal in the willpower department.
Aight. Read what Hal says. No limits.In a contest of wills, Hal has his work cut out for him.
@YoungGunna said:
So your telling me Atom has never been harmed by energy blasts in the past?
I'm not telling you that. You misread what I said, assuming that I said something of that nature. I said that Atom can absorb incoming energy attacks.
@YoungGunna said:
I'm not saying that the ring was dead before he got K.Oed but that it being extremely low on charge which limited it's effectiveness( I don't believe that Hal's ring was at full power until it was absolutely out of charge) . Hal has tanked moon vaporizing blasts around that time without flinching and his durability is pending on concentration which he had fully when the attack happened and a simple explosion knocked him unconscious? That right there right there tells me that the ring being low on charge or him being physically weakened had effected him. I also have scans showing of a Lantern unable to preform a couple of tasks due to his ring being low on energy BEFORE Rebirth happened, proving that the ring didn't( or didn't always) have full charge for 24 hours.
Okay. But the point is that Hal still had enough energy to fight Atom.
@YoungGunna said:
Hal didn't have the time to show any fatigue, he was running low on his time limit and fighting against a top tier opponent. There battle happened the same day of him stating he hadn't slept for days and he had alot of trouble maintaining a building for a couple of hours, the guy stated he was going to black out in the process.
Saying he didn't have time doesn't really make sense. If a man is tired during a fight, signs of fatigue will be shown, regardless of what they have time for. It's an issue of how the body reacts in that situation, and if exhausted while doing strenuous activity, there's no hiding it. If you watch two boxers fight each other, there's an obvious difference in physical ability at the beginning of the match and toward the end of the match if it lasts for 12 rounds. Fatigue sets in, affecting each boxer's punches, their breathing, and their ability to move around the ring. In Hal's case, while fighting Atom, he fought him as if he wasn't tired because there were no signs.
If you check Action Comics 629, Hal collapses into unconsciousness from holding the building together after all of the people are clear. The next pages takes place long moments after that, and we see Hal engage Atom in battle. Who's to say that Hal wasn't able to rest during that period, however long it may have been?
@YoungGunna said:
Because maybe he had the time to sleep it off from being knocked unconscious by Atom.
Maybe, if we actually knew how long he was knocked out after the fight.
@Static Shock: Specifically? Off the top of my head creating Heavens Ladder( I could stop right there, that feat was beyond impressive), recreating a planet against Traitor, containing a Supernova, shielding himself against a galaxy busting antimatter wave, triggering a sun to go nova ect. all done as a rookie. Just like I'd see no reason why Captain Atom wouldn't react to his ability to blitz or blitz him, offensively. To make it short, Marvel actually NEEDS to blitz while Atom doesn't not to mention the original point of me saying Marvel blitzing Atom was in a attempt to to hold him off long enough for Hal to beat Apollo.
Because it's the Flash, right? If that's what you're going to say, I don't really buy it, since people less powerful than Lanterns have tagged the Flash, too. Pretty much, not only due to Flash having superior speed/reflex feats over Ray but also Lanterns being able to pretty consistently tag Flash on multiple occasions moving at incredibly high velocities( Hal doing so numerous times alone). And if the less powerful people you have in mind haven't tagged Flash consistently or shown the reflexes to back that up, than it's PIS.
Such as, besides Wonder Woman? Well Wonder Woman was really the one I had in mind but he has done it on a couple of occasions so that should be accounted and I was also saying he has the reflex feats to back that up. And the two people you listed for stopping Superman blitzes are virtual juggernauts mainly Eiling. Besides Wonder Woman we also have Orion - who has speedblitzed Darkseid, Darkseids dogs of carvery, an army of advanced alien bugs, a group of humans and I would say 'skill blitzed' Valkryie, who is basically the equivalent of Gamora (Martial Arts master of New Genesis). And has reacted to bullets while blind, Mr Miracle blitzing him and has reacted to Lightray going all out.-. I listed his just in case you weren't buying him having great speed and reflexes. He's blitzed Hank Henshaw, Bizzarro, Ultraman, Doomsday, and Superwoman also.
Characters like who? Captain Marvel, who probably hasn't shown any? I wouldn't say he doesn't have any feats in that area, CM has caught Superman's punches in there fights, was able to punch an army of demons so quickly that they effectively were all hit in the same instant. and Wonder Woman stated that Marvel's speed was comparable to her own during one of there battles.
The problem is that it's not really combat speed. Cyclops has shown to fire his optic beams at light speed on occasion. Is that combat speed, too, or is it just his beams moving at that speed? It is to a degree, Hal would be preforming multiple actions with his ring before Atom or Apollo gets a chance to defend themselves. And unlike Cyclops, Hal actually has on panel nanosecond reacting feats and decent reflex showings against credible speedsters to back that up.
The only Lantern that I've seen do this was John, programming his ring to hit anything that moves faster than sound or whatever. Thing is, John and Hal are not the same. True, but there's more instances of Hal using his ring to analyze battle tactics to win battles or to get tasks done or scanning for weakness's then any other lantern.
Ah. I see what you did there. You didn't say self-guided the first time. I was referring to Captain Atom blocking energy attacks from Hal when they aren't self-guided, when Hal just moves to aim his ring and fire. Even if the blasts were just faster than light, Hal's ability to aim at his target isn't as fast as the attack itself and Atom could just time his aim and contest the shot that way. At the same time, I don't recall Hal often using self-guided attacks or attacking with beams faster than light. The reason I said self guided was in response to you saying "His aim isn't as quick as his attack is". And Hal has sent constructs on specific tasks light years through space and beams through time for similar purposes.
It's just like Static putting up an electromagnetic shield just as gunmen move to aim their guns at him. The ring automatically does all the aiming and firing for Hal if he wants though. As for the scan I never said Atom wasn't capable of blocking Hal's attacks.
Yes, which further proves my point. Lightning is electromagnetic in nature (under the principles of electromagnetic force). Plus, it gives off visible light, which is radiation from the electromagnetic spectrum. All of this allows him to manipulate it. So, yes. It's true. I see where your coming from this would be kind of like Quasar not being able to effect Surfer's power while draining him( and it wasn't because Surfer's power is limitless, he's been sucked dry of energy plenty of times). As stated and proven multiple times Quasar can NOT manipulate energy outside of the EM spectrum.Quasar didn't drain the power cosmic. He drained some aspect of the Surfer's energies, which is just star/stellar energy for the most part. I have no doubt that he could do that under almost any circumstances. The Power Cosmic itself is what Surfer possesses, what gives him his powers. If Quasar had been absorbing that, than Surfer would have been powerless (see vs Doom). Dr Light did in fact manipulate the magical properties of lasso if not it wouldn't of effected the power/magical properties of the lasso which clearly wasn't the case.
How do you think Light was able to manipulate Kyle's constructs? Green willpower gives off light, too. Again, Dr. Light was INCAPABLE of controling the Green Lantern energies until AFTER he had become trapped in Hal's battery for comic book months/years. Dr. Light was once able to control Kyle's energy and I stress once, in GL 3D, because he was INCAPABLE of doing so without the aid of the Worlogog when they later met.
Atom's scale of manipulation and energy absorption is higher, though. His source is the Quantum Field, and all energy in the universe comes from there, even the energy of a Oan ring. it's not a matter of Atom really being to absorb Oan energy but more of him beating Hal in a willpower contest for all the ring's energy.
The difference between the device and Atom is that Atom generally doesn't have a limit to what he can absorb, as long as he regulates his absorption rate. The only reason for the device is because the Black Hand himself needed something to combat an Oan ring. It doesn't mean other people or things cannot absorb energy from the ring. Its not even really about having limits but a willpower duel that when concerning others absorbing Hal's ring, he usually wins and the Black hand device has actually sapped rings tdry. Even concerning the more advanced ( and a tremendous plot device) Manhunters actually made by Guardians draining is incosistent, when Hal was facing the two Manhunters, the issue was that they could absorb the energy out of his ring. Those that Kyle fought couldn't, same with John. And when he actually went to the Manhunter planet, he and Guy were tearing through dozens and dozens. The same thing happened during the Millenium event -- Hal had trouble with a single Manhunter in the Green Lantern tie in issue, and then later tore through dozens like they were paper on their homeworld of Biot.
In a contest of wills, Hal has his work cut out for him. After seeing that scan I agree(i'm truly convinced that Atom could drain Gl rings now, due to willpower), but mid battle is where Hal's willpower excels the most( exceeding his rings limit in the process of killing a immortal amped Guardian through Will alone and stuff) I just see draining Hal as not being a winnable tactic..
I'm not telling you that. You misread what I said, assuming that I said something of that nature. I said that Atom can absorb incoming energy attacks. Well you did state Atom could just absorb all Hal's energy attacks who has proven time after time that he can generate or create just about anything.
Okay. But the point is that Hal still had enough energy to fight Atom. But my point is simply that Hal's ring was effected by it being low on charge. Around that time during the Byrne days, Hal tanked a 300 megaton explosion without any sustained injury( without any secondary shielding either) that Superman was fearful of surviving, being knocked out by Atoms explosion while fully focused just doesn't add up.
Saying he didn't have time doesn't really make sense. If a man is tired during a fight, signs of fatigue will be shown, regardless of what they have time for. It's an issue of how the body reacts in that situation, and if exhausted while doing strenuous activity, there's no hiding it. If you watch two boxers fight each other, there's an obvious difference in physical ability at the beginning of the match and toward the end of the match if it lasts for 12 rounds. Fatigue sets in, affecting each boxer's punches, their breathing, and their ability to move around the ring. In Hal's case, while fighting Atom, he fought him as if he wasn't tired because there were no signs. Is comparing the boxers to Hal really fair knowing the ring can temporarily enhance his endurance?
If you check Action Comics 629, Hal collapses into unconsciousness from holding the building together after all of the people are clear. The next pages takes place long moments after that, and we see Hal engage Atom in battle. Who's to say that Hal wasn't able to rest during that period, however long it may have been? Although the time is unclear, It was daylight when Hal collapsed under the pressure of the building and still daylight when he woke, with the ring still low on charge but not dead, so I doubt it was too long.
Maybe, if we actually knew how long he was knocked out after the fight. Very true, there's alot of unknown factors to the fight which is why I don't see there battle against one another as a credible reason to just why/how Atom would beat Hal in a battle forum battle both a 100% at blast.
Off the top of my head creating Heavens Ladder( I could stop right there, that feat was beyond impressive), recreating a planet against Traitor, containing a Supernova, shielding himself against a galaxy busting antimatter wave, triggering a sun to go nova ect. all done as a rookie.
What issues? I'm asking, because I have a feeling that these came much later in his ongoing, and/or in other books long after he acquired the ring. If he's doing all of this, he must gained a lot of experience to do them.
@YoungGunna said:
To make it short, Marvel actually NEEDS to blitz while Atom doesn't not to mention the original point of me saying Marvel blitzing Atom was in a attempt to to hold him off long enough for Hal to beat Apollo.
Which is why said that Captain Atom could either blitz too, or stop Marvel mid-blitz, since Atom has stopped blitzes before.
@YoungGunna said:
Pretty much, not only due to Flash having superior speed/reflex feats over Ray but also Lanterns being able to pretty consistently tag Flash on multiple occasions moving at incredibly high velocities( Hal doing so numerous times alone). And if the less powerful people you have in mind haven't tagged Flash consistently or shown the reflexes to back that up, than it's PIS.
The only problem with this is that Lanterns aren't the only ones that have tagged the Flash. Blaming it on PIS is the best solution to this either. Flash doesn't always maintain high velocity while in motion, and only really uses the high-end of speed when the situation calls for it. In essence, the Flash holds back a lot. Even with the Flash is tagged by someone, it's never stated how fast he's moving. So, I wouldn't put much stock into the Lanterns doing something that several others have done, regardless of whether they have enough reflexes to do it.
@YoungGunna said:
Well Wonder Woman was really the one I had in mind but he has done it on a couple of occasions so that should be accounted and I was also saying he has the reflex feats to back that up. And the two people you listed for stopping Superman blitzes are virtual juggernauts mainly Eiling. Besides Wonder Woman we also have Orion - who has speedblitzed Darkseid, Darkseids dogs of carvery, an army of advanced alien bugs, a group of humans and I would say 'skill blitzed' Valkryie, who is basically the equivalent of Gamora (Martial Arts master of New Genesis). And has reacted to bullets while blind, Mr Miracle blitzing him and has reacted to Lightray going all out.-. I listed his just in case you weren't buying him having great speed and reflexes. He's blitzed Hank Henshaw, Bizzarro, Ultraman, Doomsday, and Superwoman also.
Doesn't really matter at this point, because Atom could still legitimately blitz Marvel, who probably doesn't have reaction speed feats.
@YoungGunna said:
I wouldn't say he doesn't have any feats in that area, CM has caught Superman's punches in there fights, was able to punch an army of demons so quickly that they effectively were all hit in the same instant. and Wonder Woman stated that Marvel's speed was comparable to her own during one of there battles.
Catching a punch that isn't backed up with superhuman speed doesn't say much. The fight Wonder Woman had with Captain Marvel was quite old, but it doesn't mean he can stop a someone blitzing in his direction.
@YoungGunna said:
The reason I said self guided was in response to you saying "His aim isn't as quick as his attack is". And Hal has sent constructs on specific tasks light years through space and beams through time for similar purposes.
Seems like his self-guided ability is more situational than it is a valid tactic in a fight.
@YoungGunna said:
The ring automatically does all the aiming and firing for Hal if he wants though. As for the scan I never said Atom wasn't capable of blocking Hal's attacks.
Thing is, I've only seen another Lantern do this. I've never seen Hal do it. I said that you said Atom wasn't capable of blocking. I said that Atom would and should be able to defend himself, regardless of the ring's capabilities.
@YoungGunna said:
Dr Light did in fact manipulate the magical properties of lasso if not it wouldn't of effected the power/magical properties of the lasso which clearly wasn't the case.
Despite the fact that the lasso possessed magical lightning, the lightning was still electromagnetic, even if it was magical.
@YoungGunna said:
True, but there's more instances of Hal using his ring to analyze battle tactics to win battles or to get tasks done or scanning for weakness's then any other lantern.
So, Hal's never locked on his targets then?
@YoungGunna said:
Again, Dr. Light was INCAPABLE of controling the Green Lantern energies until AFTER he had become trapped in Hal's battery for comic book months/years. Dr. Light was once able to control Kyle's energy and I stress once, in GL 3D, because he was INCAPABLE of doing so without the aid of the Worlogog when they later met.
The difference between Light and Atom. The latter absorbed Parallax's energy without any issues.
@YoungGunna said:
Its not even really about having limits but a willpower duel that when concerning others absorbing Hal's ring, he usually wins and the Black hand device has actually sapped rings tdry. Even concerning the more advanced ( and a tremendous plot device) Manhunters actually made by Guardians draining is incosistent, when Hal was facing the two Manhunters, the issue was that they could absorb the energy out of his ring. Those that Kyle fought couldn't, same with John. And when he actually went to the Manhunter planet, he and Guy were tearing through dozens and dozens. The same thing happened during the Millenium event -- Hal had trouble with a single Manhunter in the Green Lantern tie in issue, and then later tore through dozens like they were paper on their homeworld of Biot.
Maybe it depends who he's fighting.
@YoungGunna said:
After seeing that scan I agree(i'm truly convinced that Atom could drain Gl rings now, due to willpower), but mid battle is where Hal's willpower excels the most( exceeding his rings limit in the process of killing a immortal amped Guardian through Will alone and stuff) I just see draining Hal as not being a winnable tactic..
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then.
@YoungGunna said:
Well you did state Atom could just absorb all Hal's energy attacks who has proven time after time that he can generate or create just about anything.
Yes, I did say that. How does the rest of this post refute what I said? Why can't Atom absorb Hal's energy attacks?
@YoungGunna said:
But my point is simply that Hal's ring was effected by it being low on charge. Around that time during the Byrne days, Hal tanked a 300 megaton explosion without any sustained injury( without any secondary shielding either) that Superman was fearful of surviving, being knocked out by Atoms explosion while fully focused just doesn't add up.
Maybe Atom's nuclear explosion was more powerful than the one Hal tanked.
@YoungGunna said:
Is comparing the boxers to Hal really fair knowing the ring can temporarily enhance his endurance?
Interesting. Maybe that explains why Hal showed no signs of fatigue. LOL.
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