Apocalypse Vs. Martian Manhunter

@hellionvulcan said:

@manchine said:

@hellionvulcan said:

also Apocalypse has something Manhunter doesn't have any resistance too his blood "Blood of Apocalypse: As recently revealed, Apocalypse's techno-organic blood has many unique properties. With only a drop of his blood into a vat of organs, blood, etc. the virus can rewrite the genetic code of the material within to form a new body for Apocalypse." so even if by chance Manhunter could harm him making Apocalypse bleed in any way is a fools mistake.

Only thing I haven't read up on is when Apocalypse Tanked the Black Bolt Scream...... So I actually can't say anything about that. I am the type of person to absorb everything around it what issue was that from?

As for stryfe that easy he phased through it. We have already talked about fighting Thor. This is a younger Thor before his hammer so he is not equal to what thor is today. So he is considered a unknown level (best guess higher then a seasoned warrior but lower then Thor.)

What is the "Blood of Apocalypse"? First I have heard of it. =) They actually had something similar to this in the 80's for him so it might be something similar.

Its from X-Factor#68.

Stryfe is a powerful mutant yet blood lusted he couldn't harm Apocalypse so i posted the picture to show that Manhunters optic blast would be handled the same way.The fights with Thor has shown Apocalypse has generally had the upper hand

Gallery

The blood of Apocalypse i think was first shown in the Dracula vs but its been more detailed by Apocalypse Clan Akkaba ,which takes samples of Apocalypse blood to turn themselves into vessels or gain powers from it but what i'm getting at is that if Manhunter gets Apocalypse blood in/on him hes screwed.

As usual alternate dimension stuff don't count. Because they are not the real characters. Otherwise we can say... Magneto has defeated Apocalypse.... so he is really easy to beat.

Apocalypse blood was mentioned way back in XFactor. In there first fights. That's why I said this is old being new again.

@manchine: I have noticed that you really do not like Apocalypse, as even when I looked at an Apocalypse vs Thor thread, you seem to think that Apocalypse gets beaten easily by Hulk.

You also stated 'Put him up against the Avengers and he goes down hard. He is not a top teir Villain (Doom, Loki, Magneto, Hulk, Kang). He is a step below'. That is completely wrong as anyone who can hold his own against the High Evolutionary is extremely powerful, or can tank multiple Optic blasts, and a Black Bolts scream makes you extremely powerful.

Sorry I am unbias just seeing him how him how he is. I easily see several people trying to push him up higher then what he really is that is biased.

@manchine: Ok, but he was powerful as crappy as his current showings, and took on and defeated some extremely powerful characters.

Jonn

This needs to be addressed, as simply ignoring continuity and making things up and deciding that it doesn't count because you think it's an alternate timeline version when it's not gives you little credit. You said you don't have to prove anything? I wasn't aware the battles forum had changed so much? All you've stated is that it actually goes with what the comics go by?? What are you talking about?? Let me turn you to some facts, not my opinion, Heroes Reborn was a separate event that hapend outside of marvel 616 continuity at the end of the onslaught saga when a lot of the main heroes jumped into onslaught and Franklin unknowingly saved them by creating an alternate earth where they resided. There were 4 main Heroes Reborn 12 issue comics, FF, Avengers, Captain America & Iron man that were all set in the Heroes Reborn universe that Franklin created. The rest of Marvel was not affected by this, Spiderman, Incredible Hulk etc, they and their issues were still in continuity, the two issue "War & Remembrance" in Incredible Hulk 456-457 with Apocalypse where Hulk was dying due to shrapnel in his head moving towards his brain which is where Apocalypse comes in and says he can help him and take it out which he does but also turns him into his Horseman War who that takes out both Absorbing Man & Juggernaut, this hapend in Hulk's own title, had nothing to do with the Heroes Reborn comics/universe, it's continuity, so saying you can't use that cause it's not canon and not the real Hulk, Apocalypse etc is false! So, bring some hard evidence, show me a link please where it says those issues and any other issues of Incredible Hulk at the time are set out of continuity? Until you do, stop saying feats that count don't because they are alternate versions, that's flat out lying!

http://marvel.wikia.com/Heroes_Reborn

WOW. ok so you don't know the truth and you want to keep with your false opinions fine. I thought were a person that could talked to and understand basic reasoning guess not. Oh well. When you want to stop pushing your opinions on people let me know. =)

PS this is derailing the thread which is against the rules.

@kingant27: Celestials technology makes Apocalypse Galactus heralds level of power.

@jagernutt: so he wins I agree

I still think there should be a CAV thread with Martian Manhunter and Apocalypse.

@jwwprod: Agreed, but someone who knows about Apocalypse and will not lowball him, as we all know Martian Manhunter is much more popular.

@manchine: Stop trolling. If you're going to avoid direct responses, don't bother to respond, and stop being insulting.

Manhunter stomps.

Me...wait. He's ignoring my responses. I have asked him nicely to look it up and not derail the thread which is against the rules. Thats not ignoring the response... I even asked to link me in it. He refuses and continues to try and argue in here.

Just to clarify, Incredible Hulk 450

Features Doctor Strange and is set in Hulk's own title which is set in 616 canon continuity as it always has been and for the first time he finds out the heroes he and the rest of the 616 marvelverse thought were dead are actually alive in an alternate universe, the Heroes Reborn universe and Strange encounters them for the first time since they jumped into Onslaught thinking they had perished, even though they don't recognize him...

Which ends in telling you in the last page...."Meanwhile, in the REAL universe (aka 616)",in Hulk's own title, which 6 issues later he encounters Apocalypse and takes on Juggernaut & Abosorbing man, which, as shown above, are in actual continuity, aka 616 canon, so that is Apocalypse and counts as him and any feats attributed to him!

As for this pic, here it is in it's entirety, which is....

Basically Apocalypse pulling Hulk into the astral plane while Nur show's Hulk his past as a slave, so that doesn't count as a feat of strength. It does however, show that Apocalypse has the tech to empower others like the Hulk to be able to take out easily beings like the Jungernaut, though.

As for the Blood of Apocalypse, which, again, is in continuity and 616 canon, started of in the 4 issue mini Apocalypse vs Dracula which was set in the 18th century which by the end of the 4th issue actually continues into Xmen 182 titled "The Blood of Apocalypse" which is actually a continuation of the Apoc vs Drac mini..

These feats should be enough by themselves. Apocalypse has more team busting feats than Martian Manhunter and a far more diverse power set. Celestial tech by itself places him on herald level.

@jagernutt: So I guess J'onn taking on the Justice League physically and/or telepathically doesn't mean anything...

@reaverlation: I didnt say Jonn wasnt badass. I just said Apocalypse has more feats in that area of team busting and no actual weakness either.

@jagernutt: quality over quantity

And a weakness J'onn doesn't have nor Apocalypse wouldn't of known of

@reaverlation: Jonn not vulnerable any more to heat?

Not saying Jonn cant win. Im just leaning toward Apocalypse, because all the powers im familiar with MM Apocalypse already has as well and then some more. Incalculable strength and invulnerability, but also reality altering abilities VIA Celestial tech and can mimic any kind of energy blast as long as he has been exposed to it before and TP.

But Jonn is faster.

Some higher end feats for Apocalypse

Apocalypse wins

@assman: Thank you for posting the feats, because this doesn't allow me, however these were the feats I was explaining. I wonder how revelations will respond.

@kingant27: Martian Manhunter is stronger and has much better telepathic feats.

@kingant27: Far too many assumptions have been made on this thread about Manhunter.

Manhunter's striking power is enough to lift Superboy Prime (a planetary being at Pre-Crisis levels) off his feet:

Infinite Crisis

His telepathy can seperate beings from The Spectre.

Gallery

^ The Spectre has resisted mental attacks from Stigmonus

Breaks the connection of Maggedon. Maggedon has mind-raped a planet of gods and Hector Hammond came across as nothing more than a joke to him, telepathically.

Gallery

Drops Maxima with a TP attack.

In an older 2002-era issue, JLA #75 he pulled 1/3 of The Earth.

Manhunter is also a better telepath than Xavier, just to let you know.

@kingant27: This is what I was talking about. Im neither a Marvel or DC fan, but I like certain characters from both.

I been reading marvel and DC over 25 years now and never would have come up with at least 50 percent of the conclusions that ive seen on comicvine so far.

@Frozen: While Martian Manhunter may be a slightly better telepath than Professor Xavier, he is not better than both Jean Grey and Professor Xavier, Apocalypse overpowered both, and has mind block to any sort of telepathy, meaning Martian Manhunter's telepathy will not be a factor in deciding whether Martian Manhunter could beat Apocalypse.

Pulling 1/3 of the is a great strength feat, however Apocalypse is amp his strength is limitless, Martian Manhunter's is not; therefore base strength=Martian Manhunter, Potential Strength= Apocalypse, although I don't believe strength will be a deciding factor, purely because both can go intangible, meaning neither can physically harm each other.

Martian Manhunter may have matched Superboy Prime, for a short while, however Apocalypse matched the High Evolutionary for a short while. High Evolutionary>> Superboy Prime.

@frozen Trumping that up a bit, "enough to lift SBP off his feet??" That's not really a feat in it'self, as he didn't actually hurt Prime, I honestly believe Apocalypse can do the same, hit Prime of his feet, just not actually physically harm him with punches much like MM or even BA who'm Prime laughed at when punching him with his lightning punches. Punching someone, whether planetary or not, is not a feat, punching them and causing them harm enough to hurt or ko them is!

@kingant27: Yes he is better than Xavier. He has much better TP feats and I have provided you with some. Manhunter has broken through TP defences on multiple occasions and he has an extremely high TP resistance, as I've pointed out.

Again, wrong. The feat is from 2002, Manhunter increased as the years progressed. Through strength feats and striking feats, Manhunter has him outclassed.

Sure it is. Prime had just laughed off a punch from the Black Adam, for Manhunter to do that speaks power. Is Apocalypse really at Superboy Prime level? I don't think so.

Knocking them off their feet requires strength. Prime is an easy planet mover. He's fought Superman, Supergirl and Power Girl at the same time and was stomping them until he was weakened.

@assman: Agreed, it doesn't show give evidence, that, that is a strength feat.

Although in another time line, but Apocalypse physically bested the Hulk, that is more of a strength feat.

which timeline did he defeat the Hulk?

Lol, Hulk is not comparable to Superboy Prime. He really isn't --- Prime is about 3-4x stronger than Superman and he can move planets like chess pieces rather easily.

@frozen: it doesn't mean Superboy Prime weighs over the same as a planet, if he did, then that would be a strength feat, however what you have displayed is not.

Superboy Prime laughing of hit from Black Adam, shows invulnerability not strength. :P

Martian Manhunter is nit going to overwhelm Apocalypse in a telepathic duel, Apocalypse has mind block, meaning Martian Manhunter's telepathy will be a non-factor, and even without it, Apocalypse's telepathy rivals Martian Manhunter.

@kingant27: I'm not arguing he weighs the same as a planet, I don't know why you think I meant that. However, it takes strength not to move when a character punches you. Prime already has durability feats and he's stomped multiple powerhouses at the same time, through pure physicality alone. Manhunter has broken very strong telepathic connections and his feats put his TP above Xavier, the ones I pointed out (especially against Spectre) showcase such.

J'onn.

@frozen: I never said he was the same strength, but Overpowering the Hulk is a strength feat, punching Superboy Prime is not; it doesn't show any strength, and depending on the Weight of Superboy Prime, would it be a strength feat.

Blue Marvel punched Sentry into orbit, Sentry is planet level+, does that mean Blue Marvel has strength to lift a planet, no, only if Sentry weighed the weight of the Earth.

@assman: He defeated him in Franklin Richards's pocket universe, reality, from what @Machine said.

@frozen For the record, I'm not saying Apocalypse or even Hulk is on Prime's level of strength, far from it, but to be fair, we are straying from the thread here, as neither is MM, and all I'm saying is that i think both Hulk & Apoc can punch SBP no different to MM, none of them actually hurting him, is what I'm saying, meaning that showing a pic of MM doing nothing more than punching sbp with no effect other than lifting him off his feat is really showing anything that Apocalypse couldn't do, ie punch someone even of that calibre simply of their feet, cause once prime comes back to his feat to deal with them, then he makes that punch mute and irrelevant is my point, and I'm going to leave it at that as it is straying from the fight. For the record, I think this fight is down the line and could go either way, I'm giving MM a slight majority myself, as both have been shown and written poorly at times, I just think Apocalypse has more so than MM.

@kingant27:

I never said he was the same strength, but Overpowering the Hulk is a strength feat, punching Superboy Prime is not; it doesn't show any strength, and depending on the Weight of Superboy Prime, would it be a strength feat.

Blue Marvel punched Sentry into orbit, Sentry is planet level+, does that mean Blue Marvel has strength to lift a planet, no, only if Sentry weighed the weight of the Earth.

It's not a strength feat. It's a striking feat. So few were able to do that to Prime because in that entire story he was smacking around every hero and villain like they were nothing.

I'm not saying Manhunter is at Prime's strength either. However I do not think Hulk could ever do that or Apocalypse because most other heroes failed to do that to Prime. He was stomping them, smacking them around and laughing off their attacks --- Prime did surprise attack Manhunter in the Watchtower and KO him, the punch was Manhunter's revenge. Prime's facial expressions are self-explanatory too, he didn't expect Manhunter to have the power to knock him off his feet. Very few could actually do what Manhunter did given Prime's other showings.

@frozen: Martian Manhunter is a top tier telepath, but it has no effect on someone who is immune to telepathy, however good the telepath.

Durability and Invulnerability is different from strength, and punching Superboy Prime shows strength, but Superboy Prime weight is not that of something Apocalypse couldn't lift.

Could you drop this irrelevant point, it shows know no high level of strength, I can punch some over 300ibs, and they would move; however it doesn't mean I can lift them over my head easy, as a strength feat.

@assman: Agreed.

You said he has a strong mental block, not that he's per-se immune? Manhunter has overcame the resistance of Maggedon and broken bonds with the Spectre himself. Those are sufficient feats.

Why are you talking about weight? Prime has high-level durability. In most of his showings, characters can't hurt him. He's broken through 40 Green Lantern constructs. With powerhouses, to punch someone who is nearly 4x stronger than you off their feet is a feat. Analogies with real people do not hold up.

@frozen: You should have said it was a striking, because you were beginning to worry me, because there is a difference between one punching a planet and lifting a planet.

How does Superboy Primes durability have anything to do with this thread.

Base Strength: Martian Manhunter

Potential Strength: Apocalypse

Speed: Martian Manhunter

Invulnerability: Apocalypse, by far, he survived multiple Optic blasts, and Black Bolt scream, without a scratch; Celestial Armour is so strong, that when Zeus, Odin and Vishnu combining there most powerful attack, which created a galaxy-buster attack, it didn't even scratch a Celestial.

Fighting Ability: Apocalypse, he was trained as a Warrior since birth.

Intelligence: Apocalypse, both are geniuses, however Apocalypse is definitely superior speed, he can easily use Celestial technology to his pleasing, even genius intellect on Earth wont be able to do. Apocalypse is also a prep master.

Versatility: Apocalypse, by far, he has these additional abilities, that Martian Manhunter doesn't:

Energy Projection,

Matter Manipulation,

Celestial Armour(Tech ,Weapons , Shields ,ect) Martian Manhunter will not be able to get past Apocalypse's Celestial level force fields.

Molecular Control(for himself and Others) He can control every molecule in his body, better than Martian Manhunter.

Size Manipulation

Immortality

Teleportation

(Apocalypse)5-2(Martian Manhunter)

If it is pre-52 MMH

@kingant27: Lol, that is not how you judge a battle and casually giving Martian Manhunter speed actually speaks for itself, he is much faster. Superboy Prime's durability is related to this thread because few could do what Manhunter did to him. Yes, Martian Manhunter is at Superman's level of strength and stronger and will be throughout the fight. He punched harder (and has better feats in regards to that area). Martian Manhunter's telepathic feats are still superior. Post #227 I've provided them, unless you can come up with a suffice counter to them. He's dropped powerful telepaths such as Maxima with a TP blast, he's temporarily used TP on Flash (at superspeeds), he's mentally seperated The Spectre from another being; The Spectre himself has resisted attacks from Stigmous, Mannhunter has resisted Maggedon, etc. As far as telepathy goes, Manhunter has both Xavier and Apocalypse beat, Manhunter has a history of feats of overcoming strong telepaths. Manhunter has Apocalypse beat in the categories of strength, speed, teleapthy and punching bar. Manhunter himself also has the tendency of going intangible. It's not ''Apocalypse 5, Manhunter 2'' --- it's rather Manhunter takes the majority.

Can you elaborate on that? Are you referring to Heroes Reborn? Your not referring to the pick I posted of Apocalpse holding Hulk with back by the mouth?

@frozen: Apocalypse is stronger, Martian Manhunter has a limit to his strength, Apocalypse does not, therefore Apocalypse is stronger. Logic.

Speed will not be a factor, both can be intangible.

Martian Manhunter could not beat both Professor Xavier(Alpha level mutant) and Jean Grey(Omega level mutant) at once; besides stop bringing up telepathy, Apocalypse is immune to telepathy.

Apocalypse has the same abilities as Martian Manhunter, and easily to the same level, but he also has more powers.

Answer this, how can Martian Manhunter even hurt his Celestial level Force fields, never mind him.

One thing I never liked from The Twelve storyline was showing Apocalypse to be a withered little old man in a shell/suit

^lol logic on ant.J'onn still wins.

Is this just going to keep coming back to Apocalypse being able to beat both Xavier and Jean in a TP battle? If so, let's just prove that MM can (or can't if that's the case) do this better than Apocalypse did and get it over with.

Because for the record, MM stomps :D