Apocalypse vs Firelord
@Freefa11: I will post the ones of Apocalypse's Harbinger. I will even post the scans of Rachel Fighting Diamanda.
I'm actually more interested in an issue number for the Harbinger, so I can read it myself and see what actually happened. For Nero, don't bother. I just read the issues, and you are completely wrong.
1) Rachel didn't actually lose that fight, so you're whole point is rubbish.
2) Rachel gave her the Phoenix Force deliberately to burn her out.
BTW, here's what happened when Rachel did decide to just attack her with the Phoenix Force
One-hit KO. Nero is nothing to Rachel, Rachel just holds back a lot and doesn't like killing anyone if she doesn't have to.
That has nothing to do with it. The fact is they can hit any level of energy expulsion up to planet-busting. That doesn't mean they need to do that to win, but even relatively weak blasts from them will be devastating, and they can turn up the power as needed. None of the Heralds would actually need to go all-out to destroy Apocalypse because he hasn't demonstrated that level of durability.In every single fight with a herald vs whomever, people always say Heralds win because they have planet busting attacks or they try to make up moves they have never done like using molecule manipulation to turn a character into anything they want. What people here on Comic Vine don't get is no person in fiction would use their most powerful attacks in the beginning of the fight if ever at all.
When was Galactus beaten by Jean? Probably never. Galactus was severely weakened by his hunger when he encountered Rachel, and that was one of the rare times when she seemed to be fully in control of the Phoenix Force and not holding back. Normally she is not so powerful.Galactus has been beaten by Jean Grey and Rachel in Phoenix Form this wasn't the situation when confronting the likes of Apocalypse.
Apocalypse did not defeat Jean with the Phoenix Force. I already explained that to you; she had just decided to start using the name and costume again. She had none of the power. I just went over how Rachel actually defeated Nero, so you were dead wrong on that point as well. Not to mention it would be irrelevant anyway, since you never proved that Nero was weaker than Apocalypse in the first place.
1) No you haven't. Galactus won that encounter.I have seen Thanos mind rape Galactus.
2) Galactus let Thanos into his mind in the first place.
3) Thanos was about as prepped for the encounter as he possibly could be, and was using Moondragon's assistance.
4) Thanos is really friggin' powerful, both physically and mentally, and would also completely destroy Apocalypse.
Once is PIS more than once is consistency.
You don't even have once, let alone more than that.
What? Even Vegeta could destroy a planet. Vegeta claimed he could destroy the earth when his power level was only 18,000. Master Roshi actually destroyed the moon when his power level was only something like 200. Goku didn't defeat Freeza until he became a Super Saiyan, at which point he had a power level of 150 million. What makes you think Goku was incapable of destroying a planet? Even before either of them reached full power, Piccolo commented that both of them were perfectly capable of destroying Namek easily if they wanted to.Really get it through your head that people who have been able to destroy planets or Solar System have been beat people who can't do the same. Goku beat Frieza and he couldn't destroy a planet.
If they are as wrong and out of context as your previous examples, then that doesn't mean much.I can give you endless examples.
I dunno, but I'm pretty sure I at least understood the ones I have read a lot better than you did. Or at least I've understood all the Galactus comics I've read a lot better than you have. Seriously, I don't know how anyone could come to the conclusion that Apocalypse is superior to Galactus.How many Apocalypse's comics have you read?
Here, let's play with your "logic" a little bit. You are claiming that Rachel beat Galactus, and Nero beat Rachel, and assuming Apocalypse beats Nero;
Apocalypse > Nero > Rachel > Galactus
But hold on a second. Thor has beaten Rachel too. So Thor > Rachel > Galactus. But Hulk has beaten Thor, and Galactus has beaten Hulk. So...
Galactus > Hulk > Thor > Rachel > Galactus
Or cutting out the middle men;
Galactus >>>> Galactus
Brilliant!
She was only doing so because Rachel was holding back, and Nero herself says so. And no, she was not siphoning off the Phoenix at all by herself. Her powers actually don't work that way, which is another thing you've gotten wrong.@Freefa11: Why do you think Rachel needed to burn Diamanda out in that first scan? Diamanda was whooping her ass, she was already siphoning some of the Phoenix.
In the second scan Rachel does attack Nero but that doesn't put her down.
Nero lost. We don't see her again until a year later. She took Rachel by surprise, then got smacked away like she was nothing.
Another to consider is that Rachel never defeated Apocalypse even when she had the power. In the whole storyline of Cable's future she admitted Apocalypse is more powerful then her and is also increasing his power. Why is that?
Same reason she didn't take down any number of X-Men villains while she was part of Excalibur. Rachel isn't like that. She doesn't have great control over the Phoenix. It scares her, she doesn't want to hurt people, she definitely doesn't want to kill people, she's inexperienced, insecure, etc.
Do you get what a fight is? A fight isn't about who has the most powerful attack. A fight is a conflict of techniques and abilities, the outcome often depends on the person.
It's only an issue if the power levels are comparable or if there's some particular weakness that can be exploited. Rachel actually does have more weaknesses than Firelord, although that doesn't matter here because she didn't lose like you claimed.
There's a scan of Lobo hurting his hand punching Darkseid too. Just because there's a scan doesn't mean it's canon (which the Lobo thing isn't). The source of the scan is important. Plus, Jean never lost to Apocalypse, so what does it matter? That wouldn't help you at all.There is an actual scan of Jean in Phoenix form beating Galactus.
Show me the proof of Jean Grey just using the Phoenix as a name and not a power.
Obviously Frieza has practiced destroying planets with ease but Goku hasn't done this. Goku's power level never hopped up to 150 million when he became Super Saiyan. When he first fought Frieza his power level was 1 million then it went to 2 million. Use common sense his power wouldn't have hopped up that high.
It's almost funny how you can say that while missing the point by such an enormous margin. You just agreed Goku's power level was at least in the millions. Roshi destroyed the moon with a power level in the hundreds . Do you not get the difference? Goku doesn't need a PL of 150 million to destroy a planet, it just emphasizes the degree of overkill. Even 1 million is still far, far more than enough to destroy a world with ease.
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And yes, it actually was that high. It is stated canonically in a Daizhenshuu. Even without that, it's not too hard to figure that must be the same ballpark. Freeza's 2nd form was already 1 million. He got boosted twice more after that by changing to his 3rd and 4th forms. Say he shoots up to 3 million. Base Goku holds his own against him for a while. Kaioken x20 would boost 3 million to 60 million, which is half Freeza's max. Super Saiyan transformation is x50 (it obviously has to be better than the Kaioken x20), which would put Goku at 150 million.
It's obvious to everyone here except you that Heralds categorically outclass Apocalypse significantly by power. Nero cannot absorb energy; her mutant power is to steal other mutant's powers by killing them. You are completely wrong about how her powers work. Apocalypse's energy absorption is only a factor if you can provide evidence he can handle the kind of energy output a herald is capable of.Its obvious Apocalypse is better than his daughter by power level and experience. Nero can absorb energy like her dad so she has and advantage over people who disperse energy when they fight.
BTW, Galactus has energy absorption powers too, in case you didn't know that. He's also beaten Xavier psychically without much problem, while Xavier has mentally spanked Rachel.
Oh, and the encounter between "Rachel" and Galactus was a weakened, starving Galactus vs. the Phoenix Force; Rachel was actually not in control at the time so it wasn't really her fighting him. She did not regain consciousness until a few issues later. She has had enough poor showings, as well as basically had it stated, that her personal control of the Phoenix Force is limited and haphazard, and she is nowhere near as effective as an unfettered Phoenix, or even as effective as Jean had been with it.
LOLs good times
And also to show that Jean really did have the Shadow Form with Phoenix Eye Effect once since there are probably many fans that never read the Revolution run and may not completely believe it....
Heres pics from Uncanny #381 and #384.
More can be found at the Phoenix-first X-Woman site.
http://hem.passagen.se/hggblom2/phoenix/
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