AoS Agent May vs. CW Canary [Sara Lance] - H2H

• H2H only
• No prep
• Regular morals
• They fight in a dojo.

Canary. League of assassins training trumps shield very close though both have incredible feats

Canary

May. Especially this being a H2H only fight.

May

May. She's taken down quite a few soldiers in just H2H, along with Ward and Bobbi.

@12_percent_of_a_plan: Yeah But Canary has taken down a fair few mirakuru soldiers. I know May has taken down centipede but not as often. Also would the canary have her staff because she tends not to go into battle without it.

Canary.

May just beat a superhuman two episodes ago in a re-telling of how she got the nickname, "The Calvary". It's fair to say that May has just as many feats against people who possess enhanced strength as Sara does. Also, she has more overall feats against superhumans in general as S.H.I.E.L.D. is regularly tasked to deal with superhuman threats on a more consistent basis than anyone on Arrow. So that whole "Sara has taken on better opponents" argument doesn't play here, bruh.

May handily

@super_mod: Hard to argue with that, Shield encounters more powers on a regular basis so maybe the better opponent argument doesn't play here, bruh. That being said I still feel that Sara would stand a better chance at winning than May because though they are both incredibly skilled fighters I don't think we ever saw Sara's true fighting potential as she was always being held back by Olivers no killing rule. I feel most of the league training would be aimed towards killing. maybe give the fight to Sara 6/10

@tomkr456: Nope, can't use that argument either. May is also a trained killer. She has dropped more bodies than Sara altogether. Sara has only been implied to have performed assassinations for the LoA before she came back to Starling City but we rarely actually saw her do it bc Oliver nerfed her. In contrast, we have seen May kill on at least a few occasions throughout both seasons. She killed like 3 or 4 people in the Calcary episode alone, tanked multiple hits from a superhuman, and reluctantly killed another superhuman who could control other people's actions. Sara is not fcking with May.

@super_mod: Yeah I saw the episode. most of Mays kills come from weapons. including both super powered beings in the cavalry ep. And that was my point we don't get to see Sara's lethal moves in hand to hand because of Oliver and as she has completed league training it is safe to assume she knows a variety of ways to finish people in hand to hand combat.

@tomkr456: Sara has used weapons to kill too; lol she even used one to kill the first character we ever saw her kill -- Dollmaker. Then she snapped Al-Owal's neck. May has replicated both of these methods of killing (long-range shooting and neck-snapping). May completed SHIELD training so it's safe to assume that she knows a variety of ways to finish people in H2H combat. You're not gonna be able to reference any Sara Lance feat that I can't counter with a superior Melinda May feat. Even if May did have to resort to using weapons to end those super humans, that still doesn't take away from the fact that she has ended better opponents than Sara has and on a much grander scale. They may be somewhat comparable in skill but May has better feats against people who are on par with Ollie in skill (Like Grant Ward) and has dealt with more superhumans on a more consistent basis. She is beating Sara Lance.

@super_mod: New here, is it bad to admit you 'may' have convinced me? pun intended

I don't think Ward is on par with Olliver

@the_real_seaman: neither do I

Nah it's not bad ot admit that. That's pretty much how it works here. You debate with someone and if you are convinced by or unable to counter their argument then you concede, no shame in that at all. There are different tiers of debaters on this site and there isn't one single user who knows everything about every character which means that, at some point, everyone is going to run into someone who knows more about a particular char. than they do and lose that debate. In your defense, you made an excellent case for Sara, better than anyone else who has commented thus far. You have nothing to be ashamed of.

On par meaning that Ward is close to or approaching Ollie's level of skills. He's really not that far off but he just needs more feats is all.

@super_mod: Cheers man, maybe we will see more canary feats in the Arrow/ Flash spin off that will help tip the balance in her favour!

You mean after she is eventually resurrected by the Lazarus Pits? ~ bc they are making it so obvious that's the direction they're heading in plot-wise lol

Rumor has it that she will be joining the cast of the Iron Ma- I mean "Atom" spin-off.

@super_mod: Haha yeah she's in the new spin off, starring super-man as... Ironman!!! honestly if he doesn't start shrinking soon

lol Exactly, everyone is waiting for him to shrink but, right now, the writers can't seem to figure out what to do with him lol

@super_mod: There are two Count Vertigos, the first one was killed by Oliver when he took Felicity hostage, the second one was beaten by Laurel Lance. Sara never killed any Count Vertigos. The one she killed was Dollmaker, by throwing a baton that pierced through the guy's chest.

Ah Dollmaker. Got my villains mixed up. Thanks, I'll edit that in my comment.

May handily I can barely remember all of Canary's strictly H2H fights.

How do you people say that shield training is better than league of assassin's training ???

Shield was started after 1942 after defeating redskull .

The League was created some time before 3200 B.C.

The league has training experience for centuries which is far more superior .

May wins in a close fight

You guys know that May has more than S.H.I.E.L.D's training, right?? If I remember well, May said that she started in martial arts at 12 or 13 years old, ages when she couldn't have S.H.I.E.L.D training for being too young, and if she has the same age the actress has, she has been practicing martial arts over 40 years!! that requires a lot, guys! so please don't underestimate May saying that she only has S.H.I.E.L.D training.

And I'm not saying Sara is not as good as May (I actually think they're nearly at the same level at this moment, being May better only for a bit (now I'm saying it oops)), I'm just saying that these kind of characters need more appreciation, like Sara, everybody thinks she's at the same level she was at the start, but no!! she has increased her skills to the level I said before, being trained by LOA again when she was in the past, and being capable of beating more bad guys easier than before, without needing her staff/sticks.

May wins only because of her having more experience and for demonstrating she can always kick bad guys's asses (even beatingthem in her current dreams that are as real as real life (I'm talking about her fight against AIDA 2.0)), but if Sara keeps getting better, I could switch my opinion one day...

Sara took down Malcolm while she was at a disadvantage. She has this.

@rbt: The guy that gets stomped by Ollie, barely beats Thea and seems to be worse than Diggle?

The guy who defeated S1 Ollie in cqc. Getting stomped by post Al Sah Him Oliver is barely a low showing since he was basically Ra's level by then. Thea is no slouch either considering she has bested Anarky on every occasion they fought. The same guy who once gave Oliver a tough time. Diggle would loose to Malcolm.

Now when you say bested Anarky, you mean in their 1v1s or the all vs Anarky?

If the former, then she was under pit bloodlust (I know I'm forgetting one of their fights, can't seem to remember it though, so this might change) and the latter only works for Anarky.

@supremegeneration:

Now when you say bested Anarky, you mean in their 1v1s or the all vs Anarky?

If the former, then she was under pit bloodlust (I know I'm forgetting one of their fights, can't seem to remember it though, so this might change) and the latter only works for Anarky.

In 1v1. She fought him by the end of season as well(when Thea was held hostage by Merlyn in Darhk's underground city) and was able to put him down despite being unarmed.

*snaps*

That was the fight.

@rbt: Diggle did way better in a swordfight against Olliver and was shown to be faster than Malcolm. Anarky took on the entirety of Team Arrow including Thea in the same episode, which makes him so inconsistent it is ridiculous and you seem to be operating on the idea Malcolm was actually better or as good as May.

@stahlflamme: Dig LOST to a holding back Oliver. That barely counts.

Holding off someone for a few seconds is not same as taking them on. Oliver had 'held off' China White and BT at same time and then almost got killed when the fight progressed. Same would have happened to Anarky. Thea is the most consistent combatant against him. She has bested Oliver(he was quite clearly holding back, but he lost). Oliver was surprised by how skilled she was. Thea matching Malcolm is a feat for Thea. It takes nothing away from Malcolm.

The very fact that Malcolm used to stomp Ollie is season 1 is enough to put him on higher grounds as compared to May. S1/2 Ollie is her superior by feats.

@rbt: He still did better than Malcolm, who was incapacitated by a single flip and Oliver did not hold back, even if he did not want to kill him, something he did not want to do when he fought Malcolm either.

Not what it looked like to me.

Maöcolm never stomped Oliver. In their first foght he got knocked out by him in a single punch. During theor second fight he got hit several times, which everyone seems to forget and during their third fight he lost.

And did Oliver in seasons 1 or two ever fight his way through building of armed criminals, took a punch from someone with enough super strength to wreck a car, then got shot in the leg and still managed to defeat the super strong opponent? Did he ever defeat three opponents simultaneously that could rip apart metal restraints with their bare hands and just get back up after being hit with heavy objects to the head, or defeat a guy that could bend metal bars with his bare hands without a weapon, did he take down a teleporter?

@stahlflamme:

He still did better than Malcolm, who was incapacitated by a single flip and Oliver did not hold back, even if he did not want to kill him, something he did not want to do when he fought Malcolm either

Oliver was putting on a show when he fought Dig. That feat does not count. And while Oliver was trying not to kill Malcolm, he was most definitely determined to beat him. Thea's life depended on him beating Malcolm.

Maöcolm never stomped Oliver. In their first foght he got knocked out by him in a single punch. During theor second fight he got hit several times, which everyone seems to forget and during their third fight he lost.

Malcolm got sucker punched in their fight. Kicked the crap out of Ollie in second. The fight barely lasted a minute. He beat Oliver in third fight in all sense and purpose. Just because Ollie got lucky does not mane everything that happened prior to it does not count.

And did Oliver in seasons 1 or two ever fight his way through building of armed criminals, took a punch from someone with enough super strength to wreck a car, then got shot in the leg and still managed to defeat the super strong opponent? Did he ever defeat three opponents simultaneously that could rip apart metal restraints with their bare hands and just get back up after being hit with heavy objects to the head, or defeat a guy that could bend metal bars with his bare hands without a weapon, did he take down a teleporter?

Pretty much, yeah. Ollie destroyed 18 guys in a tight hallway without getting touched once. May can't hope to replicate a feat like that. He took hits from Mirakuru soldiers, so there's that. Outskilling brutes mean absolutely nothing, no matter how strong they are. When serious, Oliver dodged each and every strike from Grundy, pushed him all the way back to where he wanted him to be and then dropped the building on him. May has physicals to hang with superpowered opponents(she can tank some serious damage), but she has never taken on fodders like Oliver does.

@rbt: So you're saying Oliver did not want to kill Diggle so he held back and didn't give it his all and then immediately claim he gave his all despite not wanting to kill Malcolm in the next instant. Logically Oliver had not reason to hold back against Diggle, because that would have increased the likeliness of Ra's seeing through his lies.

No, it means Malcolm lost when he had the advantage twice...

Olliver took out a couple of thugs one or two at a time using a lethal weapon and you use that as a h2h feat that puts him above May, who took out her entire shield tactical team, that cleared a warehouse in seconds, and defeated a superhuman, that would have replicated Ollivers hallway scene like it was a regular stroll, with a bullet in her leg. Yeah, right. And of course a fight against multiple sucky opponents is a much better way of showing skill in single combat then taking down an impressive opponent.

@stahlflamme:

So you're saying Oliver did not want to kill Diggle so he held back and didn't give it his all and then immediately claim he gave his all despite not wanting to kill Malcolm in the next instant. Logically Oliver had not reason to hold back against Diggle, because that would have increased the likeliness of Ra's seeing through his lies.

That's what I took from those scenes. Oliver was putting on a show for League when he fought Dig. He wanted someone to step up and stop him before he would have to kill him. I believe he held back so Dig could survive longer, giving someone else a chance at taking a shot at him. Which Thea did eventually.

Malcolm was another story. Yes, Oliver did not want to kill him. But that does not translate to Oliver holding back. It just means, that he did not want to kill him. But there was a lot riding on him defeating Malcolm(future of League, future of Nyssa and his sister's life). There is no reason for Oliver to hold back in such situation.

But that's my interpretation.

No, it means Malcolm lost when he had the advantage twice...

Sure. I get that. So, Malcolm chokes. So does every other villain. They can't have villain kill hero, can they? And in season 1 finale, Malcolm was taking on Ollie and Dig at same time. However, Ollie's win in their final fight was pure circumstantial. If we are looking to see who was more skilled combatant back then, it was, without a doubt, Malcolm.

Olliver took out a couple of thugs one or two at a time using a lethal weapon and you use that as a h2h feat that puts him above May, who took out her entire shield tactical team, that cleared a warehouse in seconds, and defeated a superhuman, that would have replicated Ollivers hallway scene like it was a regular stroll, with a bullet in her leg.

He shot, what 4 guys out of 18? And just taking them out is not the impressive part. He did it without getting touched once. I'd really like you to post a feat of Mat on taking on as many opponents at same time without getting tagged.

And I have already told you why taking down a superhuman brute means little to nothing when we are discussing skill. May took down a superhuman? All it shows is that she is skilled enough to dodge strikes of a brute(which Ollie is as well), durable enough to tank their hits(which Ollie is more than capable of) and has striking power to hurt them(Ollie does as well). You don't have to be a Batman level character to take down a brute.

Ollie literally dodged each an every strike of Grundy, hit him hard enough to push him all the way across the room, then took him down by giving him a taste of his own medicine. Literally.

And of course a fight against multiple sucky opponents is a much better way of showing skill in single combat then taking down an impressive opponent.

You want impressive opponents? More so that Ra's Al Ghul? A guy who can take on 8 swordsmen completely surrounding him, attacking him at once in 10 seconds?

This is the level of skill in Arrow. AoS doesn't even come close.

Question: What are you even arguing about at this point? This is about May vs Sara. You're argument is Sara beat one-handed Malcolm in hand-to-hand. So you say Malcolm is better than May as an argument, because he is better than season 1 Olliver and season 1 Olliver is better than May. How do you try to prove the last part. You bring up a fight against an opponent in S3 that he only won with luck after additional training, which allowed him to effortlessly stomp Malcolm in their next fight.

@stahlflamme:

Yeah, except he only fought one or two guys at a time. Ward in season 1 took out 12 highly trained agents rather than thugs by shooting six. May beat him.

The one where Ward was hiding with Skye?

So, he shot 6 guys, and basically got his ass kicked by 6 other and would have died had it not been for the knife. Circumstantial. And that's same as Ollie taking on 14 guys without getting touched once? Okaay.

And yet he run from the much weaker Sampson like a little bitch even in season 4 when he is supposedly much better.

Goes to show just how much you know about the character you are arguing against. A) Sampson was in S5. B) He literally could not feel pain. Go ahead. Point out an instance when May has gone against an opponent like that.

Yeah, no Olivers showings against super strong opponents are horrible. May got him.

Yeah, I mean, all Oliver has done is take down hordes of Mirakuru users, taken on superpowered aliens, one shotted seven foot giants with pressure point attack, has incpacitated superpowered guys who cannot feel pain by severing their tendons, but you're right. May got him.

And with that we've reached your actual argument. You say Arrow is just better by virtue of being Arrow. Arrow the show in which league assassins have been defeated by Quentin, Jax and Felicity, in which Nyssa was beaten by Roy and Laurel at a point they would lose whenever they faced two mooks simultaneously. The show in which Brick took on Olliver skill wise after he was shown to be ridiculously less skilled than Wildcat. Yes, no, that bullshit bias you can forget about right away.

Its also the show where LoA has flipped through bullets at point blank. Or deflected and caught arrows at point blank. Pointing out low showing goes without context goes to show your desperation. Oh and btw, the Roy who would loose to two mooks, did this-

Took down 3 guys bigger than him while he was handcuffed behind his back.

Now, when you are willing to not outright lie and lowball, tag me. Otherwise I have absolutely no interest in debating with someone whose first instinct is to lie and lowball.

You sure you are not hail hydra, because I'm pretty sure you are trying to declare Arrow the winner despite the character not actually being part of the fight right now.

@stahlflamme:

Except he actually fought these guys at once and they had way more training and body armor unlike Olliver who only took 1 or 2 at a time.

You mean he was fighting them six at a time. There were three moments of him even taking on 2. Though, he did take on 6 at a time. And pretty much got pounded to the ground. Its baffling that you would even consider the two feats comparable.

The robot last episode. Presumably the primitives.

You mean the one that she kept hitting and did absolutely no damage to? She stabbed her, ran away, and got caught. And it was all in her head, IIRC.

In the episode where Flash could suddenly run all over the world in a minute, in the crossover in which Supergirl was suddenly way more durable then on her own show?

Exactly. In the very same episode. You know the one that is a canon part of the show?

Oh, right comics. This are totally actually canon. Like how the episode with Slade out of prison totally shows Oliver had been there before fighting him and not the opposite.

Yes. Exactly those comics. Which are mentioned to be canon quite a few times. See? You're getting it.

Not to mention has the "giant" any feats?

Yeah. One shotting fodders. Beating Oliver and tossing him around cage like a rag doll. Until the pressure point attack, of course.

If he was actually good, he would have just shot an arrow through his brain or slit his throat to instant kill him, since he killed him anyways, but apparently he lacks the accuracy.May got him.

Wow. You do know Derek is still alive, right?

And before you attack me for using wiki, I can always post a screenshot of Cody Rhodes' fb post where he confirmed that his character was apprehended and could return.

But, yeah. May got him.

Those are the outliers. The great majority of league assassins can't hit the broadside of a barn uses bows as melee weapons and gets flattened by Laurel at a point she could not even take on a thug with a knife.

You mean the one where she outright said that she wasn't expecting him to have a knife and was taken by surprise? Keep digging man.

This is the outlier. Roy spent most of the season getting his asskicked everytime he fought two fodder opponents. And during his next appearance struggled with Curtis, who could not take on a single mook by himself.

Well, then there is no point in having this debate, right? Since you are hellbent on lowballing anything that I post.