#1 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Anti-Venom vs Midnighter

The rules for this battle go as followed

  • for Midnighter, both new 52 and pre-52 feats allowed
  • standard weapons, gadgets and gear for both
  • no doors for Midnighter
  • both are at their peak health, both fully rested
  • random encounter
  • no allies, or external resources or aid
  • Fight is won by Death, Incapacitation K.O. or Surrender

The battle takes place here

  • they begin on opposite sides of times square
  • no bystanders, except for people driving vehicles, buses and cars
  • the lights are all on so the battle looks awesome
  • 12:00 am, September 12th
  • no doors
  • buildings and subway are accessible
  • fully interactive environment

Two rounds in this battle

  • Round 1: Morals off
  • Round 2: Bloodlusted

Who wins and why?

#2 Posted by ei8trak (6 posts) - - Show Bio

midnighter

#3 Posted by comicace3 (4639 posts) - - Show Bio

Whoa... um does the time and date actually matter? And damn thats a lot of description.

#4 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3: i like to get specific, and no, they dont really matter at all

#5 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#6 Posted by laflux (15377 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice Battle

#7 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

Anti-Venom both rounds easily. Midnighter can't hurt him without doors.

#8 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter.

#9 Posted by Killemall (18536 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

Anti-Venom both rounds easily. Midnighter can't hurt him without doors.

#10 Posted by XiiX (8024 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

Anti-Venom both rounds easily. Midnighter can't hurt him without doors.

#11 Edited by SlimJ87D (9661 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going with Anti-Venom. He has no weaknesses and can heal instantly from most of what Midnighter can dish out at him. It pretty much took magic or a special poison to hurt Anti-Venom which Midnighter has neither of.

#12 Posted by dondave (36503 posts) - - Show Bio

Anti-Venom ftw

#13 Posted by laflux (15377 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92:

@Killemall:

He hurt Maul and Hawksmoor, who are both at least as strong, if not stronger than Anti-Venom. Anti-Venom also got Koed by a direct shotgun blast to the Head by Punisher, although he healed quickly enough. I favor Anti-Venom too, but I don't think it would be easy.

#14 Edited by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@Strider92:

@Killemall:

He hurt Maul and Hawksmoor, who are both at least as strong, if not stronger than Anti-Venom. Anti-Venom also got Koed by a direct shotgun blast to the Head by Punisher, although he healed quickly enough. I favor Anti-Venom too, but I don't think it would be easy.

Strength isn't the problem. What it comes down to is that Midnighter cannot harm Anti-Venom in the slightest. Physical attacks do nothing and Anti-Venom has no conventional symbiote weakness's. Fire and sonics don't do anything to him. Without some kind of energy projection Anti-Venom is nigh impossible to put down. Although Midnighter is faster and more skilled what it comes down to is there is nothing can do to give him the win. Whereas Anti-Venom is strong enough and brutal enough to take out Midnighter when he does eventually get his hands on him or he could simply "cure" Midnighter as he did to Spider-man.

#15 Edited by laflux (15377 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@laflux said:

@Strider92:

@Killemall:

He hurt Maul and Hawksmoor, who are both at least as strong, if not stronger than Anti-Venom. Anti-Venom also got Koed by a direct shotgun blast to the Head by Punisher, although he healed quickly enough. I favor Anti-Venom too, but I don't think it would be easy.

Strength isn't the problem. What it comes down to is that Midnighter cannot harm Anti-Venom in the slightest. Physical attacks do nothing and Anti-Venom has no conventional symbiote weakness's. Fire and sonics don't do anything to him. Without some kind of energy projection Anti-Venom is nigh impossible to put down. Although Midnighter is faster and more skilled what it comes down to is there is nothing can do to give him the win. Whereas Anti-Venom is strong enough and brutal enough to take out Midnighter when he does eventually get his hands on him or he could simply "cure" Midnighter as he did to Spider-man.

Midnighter's powers aren't Radioactive/Spider based though. I thought his curing powers only worked around those stipulations?

I'll give the Wildstorm expert a call.......

#16 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

Midnighter's powers aren't Radioactive/Spider based though. I thought his curing powers only worked around those stipulations?

The Queen's virus wasn't radioactive based and Brock was curing that just fine.

#17 Posted by laflux (15377 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@laflux said:

Midnighter's powers aren't Radioactive/Spider based though. I thought his curing powers only worked around those stipulations?

The Queen's virus wasn't radioactive based and Brock was curing that just fine.

Ah, but her powers derived around insects/Spiders etc.

#18 Edited by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Anti-Venom's powers work by purging impurities from the body. Spider-man's radioactive blood was an impurity as was the virus it had nothing to do with them being Spider-based. He's also cured drug users of their addiction in his mini-series if you need an example. The source of Midnighter's powers would be classed the same. The only thing that probably wouldn't be effected is his battle computer due to it being electronic however thats not much use if his superhuman stats are gone.

Again I doubt Anti-Venom would even need to do this to win given that he can take whatever Midnighter can dish out without much trouble.

#19 Posted by laflux (15377 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@laflux: Anti-Venom's powers work by purging impurities from the body. Spider-man's radioactive blood was an impurity as was the virus it had nothing to do with them being Spider-based. He's also cured drug users of their addiction in his mini-series if you need an example. The source of Midnighter's powers would be classed the same. The only thing that probably wouldn't be effected is his battle computer due to it being electronic however thats not much use if his superhuman stats are gone.

Again I doubt Anti-Venom would even need to do this to win given that he can take whatever Midnighter can dish out without much trouble.

Right I remember now in the Anti-Venom Punisher team up. I guess its my turn to use this Gif

#20 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: hey gif's are my thing!?

#21 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: if i changed it to doors on, what would your verdict be? would that make it a closer match?

#22 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@CalebHara: Well Midnighter would auto-win by BFR then so it wouldn't really be closer lol.

#23 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@laflux said:

@Strider92:

@Killemall:

He hurt Maul and Hawksmoor, who are both at least as strong, if not stronger than Anti-Venom. Anti-Venom also got Koed by a direct shotgun blast to the Head by Punisher, although he healed quickly enough. I favor Anti-Venom too, but I don't think it would be easy.

Strength isn't the problem. What it comes down to is that Midnighter cannot harm Anti-Venom in the slightest. Physical attacks do nothing and Anti-Venom has no conventional symbiote weakness's. Fire and sonics don't do anything to him. Without some kind of energy projection Anti-Venom is nigh impossible to put down. Although Midnighter is faster and more skilled what it comes down to is there is nothing can do to give him the win. Whereas Anti-Venom is strong enough and brutal enough to take out Midnighter when he does eventually get his hands on him or he could simply "cure" Midnighter as he did to Spider-man.

If Anti-Venom actually was knocked out, even briefly, by a shotgun blast to the head, then your claim that physical attacks do nothing is baseless. I don't know if it's true because I've read probably just a handful of appearances by Anti-Venom, but if it is, he can be hurt, and by something that's far less than what Midnighter can dish out. And that's before getting into Midnighter's range of explosives which top out at "visible from space" in their power. Not having a weakness doesn't mean you're unbeatable, it just means you get beaten by everything pretty much equally. As for this curing of Midnighter you suppose, I find it unlikely that it would work. Forgetting for a moment the various countermeasures inside Midnighter (some biological and some technological), Midnighter isn't impure the way your examples were. Radiation, a virus, and drug addictions aren't really the same as having your body made out of different materials or something like that. You don't "cure" a pacemaker or an artificial limb and Midnighter's impurities aren't biochemical impurities like Anti-Venom has dealt with.

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#24 Posted by laflux (15377 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot:

Again, Anti-Venom healed quickly, but he was Koed for a bit. Also kinda shows his lack of speed, although his back was turned and unsuspecting.

#25 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

If Anti-Venom actually was knocked out, even briefly, by a shotgun blast to the head, then your claim that physical attacks do nothing is baseless. I don't know if it's true because I've read probably just a handful of appearances by Anti-Venom, but if it is, he can be hurt, and by something that's far less than what Midnighter can dish out. And that's before getting into Midnighter's range of explosives which top out at "visible from space" in their power. Not having a weakness doesn't mean you're unbeatable, it just means you get beaten by everything pretty much equally. As for this curing of Midnighter you suppose, I find it unlikely that it would work. Forgetting for a moment the various countermeasures inside Midnighter (some biological and some technological), Midnighter isn't impure the way your examples were. Radiation, a virus, and drug addictions aren't really the same as having your body made out of different materials or something like that. You don't "cure" a pacemaker or an artificial limb and Midnighter's impurities aren't biochemical impurities like Anti-Venom has dealt with.

To be honest I don't remember this shot-gun scene that is being referred too any chance you could show me a scan of this? However in his first appearance Anti-Venom was shrugging off blows from Spider-man and Venom quite easily. I would say these should deal much more damage than a bullet. He was also shot multiple times in New Ways To Die with no ill effects. As for him curing Midnighter it was said in Midnighter's solo series (in issue 10 I believe) that he was a normal human before signing up with Stormwatch Black. Yes he has technological enhancements and these ones would most likely remain untouched but he also has biological ones as well. These would be considered impurities as they are foreign to his body due to them being placed there by Bendix and are just as curable as any other foreign variable.

#26 Posted by laflux (15377 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@Buckshot said:

If Anti-Venom actually was knocked out, even briefly, by a shotgun blast to the head, then your claim that physical attacks do nothing is baseless. I don't know if it's true because I've read probably just a handful of appearances by Anti-Venom, but if it is, he can be hurt, and by something that's far less than what Midnighter can dish out. And that's before getting into Midnighter's range of explosives which top out at "visible from space" in their power. Not having a weakness doesn't mean you're unbeatable, it just means you get beaten by everything pretty much equally. As for this curing of Midnighter you suppose, I find it unlikely that it would work. Forgetting for a moment the various countermeasures inside Midnighter (some biological and some technological), Midnighter isn't impure the way your examples were. Radiation, a virus, and drug addictions aren't really the same as having your body made out of different materials or something like that. You don't "cure" a pacemaker or an artificial limb and Midnighter's impurities aren't biochemical impurities like Anti-Venom has dealt with.

To be honest I don't remember this shot-gun scene that is being referred too any chance you could show me a scan of this? However in his first appearance Anti-Venom was shrugging off blows from Spider-man and Venom quite easily. I would say these should deal much more damage than a bullet. He was also shot multiple times in New Ways To Die with no ill effects. As for him curing Midnighter it was said in Midnighter's solo series (in issue 10 I believe) that he was a normal human before signing up with Stormwatch Black. Yes he has technological enhancements and these ones would most likely remain untouched but he also has biological ones as well. These would be considered impurities as they are foreign to his body due to them being placed there by Bendix and are just as curable as any other foreign variable.

The scan is just above your post lol.

#27 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

The scan is just above your post lol.

Oh snap. That will teach me too look instead of just following the message in my inbox lol!

#28 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

To be honest I don't remember this shot-gun scene that is being referred too any chance you could show me a scan of this? However in his first appearance Anti-Venom was shrugging off blows from Spider-man and Venom quite easily. I would say these should deal much more damage than a bullet. He was also shot multiple times in New Ways To Die with no ill effects. As for him curing Midnighter it was said in Midnighter's solo series (in issue 10 I believe) that he was a normal human before signing up with Stormwatch Black. Yes he has technological enhancements and these ones would most likely remain untouched but he also has biological ones as well. These would be considered impurities as they are foreign to his body due to them being placed there by Bendix and are just as curable as any other foreign variable.

With the image posted I think claims of Anti-Venom being "nigh impossible to put down" should be reassessed. Anti-Venom taking hits from Spider-Man and Venom is nice, but that doesn't make him invulnerable any more than Midnighter taking hits from Jack Hawksmoor then beating him nearly to death makes him invulnerable. What are the biological enhancements Anti-Venom would cure? To me, there is nothing similar to the clearly detrimental conditions that Anti-Venom has cured, and even if there were, Midnighter has actual defenses against alterations to his biological makeup.

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#29 Posted by laflux (15377 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

@Strider92 said:

To be honest I don't remember this shot-gun scene that is being referred too any chance you could show me a scan of this? However in his first appearance Anti-Venom was shrugging off blows from Spider-man and Venom quite easily. I would say these should deal much more damage than a bullet. He was also shot multiple times in New Ways To Die with no ill effects. As for him curing Midnighter it was said in Midnighter's solo series (in issue 10 I believe) that he was a normal human before signing up with Stormwatch Black. Yes he has technological enhancements and these ones would most likely remain untouched but he also has biological ones as well. These would be considered impurities as they are foreign to his body due to them being placed there by Bendix and are just as curable as any other foreign variable.

With the image posted I think claims of Anti-Venom being "nigh impossible to put down" should be reassessed. Anti-Venom taking hits from Spider-Man and Venom is nice, but that doesn't make him invulnerable any more than Midnighter taking hits from Jack Hawksmoor then beating him nearly to death makes him invulnerable. What are the biological enhancements Anti-Venom would cure? To me, there is nothing similar to the clearly detrimental conditions that Anti-Venom has cured, and even if there were, Midnighter has actual defenses against alterations to his biological makeup.

Could you elaborate on these defenses please?

#30 Posted by Strider92 (16265 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

With the image posted I think claims of Anti-Venom being "nigh impossible to put down" should be reassessed. Anti-Venom taking hits from Spider-Man and Venom is nice, but that doesn't make him invulnerable any more than Midnighter taking hits from Jack Hawksmoor then beating him nearly to death makes him invulnerable. What are the biological enhancements Anti-Venom would cure? To me, there is nothing similar to the clearly detrimental conditions that Anti-Venom has cured, and even if there were, Midnighter has actual defenses against alterations to his biological makeup.

I will agree that this does change my outlook on his durability slightly however this was done at close range and had plot help. Anti-Venom was unaware he was there and in that very series when Frank attempted to kill him again the symbiote acted of its own free will protecting Brock from the danger before he even knew about it. Allowing Punisher to creep up on him and put a shot gun to his head seems slightly fishy to me. Even then I would think a shot-gun shell at close range to the head probably deals more damage than a blow from Midnighter or his bo-staff.

How are Spider-man's powers detrimental? The allow him with superhuman abilities with no ill effects to himself. Yes Midnighter does have a healing factor but so does Venom and Anti-Venom had little trouble bypassing that (twice). As I said before things that are solidly implanted in Midnighter such as microchips or other electronics will remain unaffected however I see no reason why his biological ones should not be as Brock's powers have worked quite consistently on people with biological differences.

#31 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

Could you elaborate on these defenses please?

Midnighter's immune system beat aids in (I think) six weeks and colds never stay in system for more than a few minutes. His body reacts quickly and forcefully to foreign processes acting on it. His blood was also used to normalize The Doctor's body after he overdosed on heroin and was looking at permanent braid damage. As for the defenses that have been shown to be technological, when Angie went into Midnighter's brain nanomachines tried to kill her. And more recently, when Assassin8 had a nerve toxin tailor made to take Midnighter down, Midnighter was still fighting on unhindered well beyond when it was supposed to kick in, and when Assassin8 fought Midnighter again no long after (not long at all, he went to The Carrier, tried to kill the Authority and then got sent back to Midnighter by Jenny), Midnighter was completely immune.

@Strider92: A shotgun blast to Maul, Sebastian, Apollo, or Brutus would be shrugged off, and Midnighter has floored all of these characters. Jack Hawksmoor was still conscious and ready to fight after two close range shot gun blasts and getting hit by a wrecking ball when he was mostly depowered, and as I said before, Midnighter has beaten him nearly to death and he did that when he was at full power. Midnighter looks to be able to do damage to Anti-Venom with his fists, and if he can't he can't, he could always shove a large explosive down his throat.

I asked for specifically what biological enhancements Anti-Venom would cure. Spider-Man's powers don't seem detrimental but they technically fall under "radiation poisoning". You may not agree, but with Anti-Venom having cured things like diseases, chemical addictions, and radiation, to me his powers seem to work on a different set of things than Midnighter's upgrades so I don't think it would work, and even if it might potentially work, I think Midnighter's defenses are solid enough that on the off chance that Anti-Venom can affect him, the affect will be greatly minimized. And that's assuming Anti-Venom touches him. Midnighter once fought against two androids that only had to touch him once to deactivate his powers and we never found out if that claim was real because he effortlessly beat them both without them touching him or him making contact with them.

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