He was fully backed at the time and this also makes me believe Presence is not omniscient because during the battle, Anti Monitor made Spectre see things the Presence himself couldn't imagine.
Anti Monitor vs Lucifer and Michael
@BigCimmerian: I also now find Lucifer to be a bit weaker than people claim because it is said he lost his powers when he was in the realm of the Japanese Gods.
@AdmiralNAkbar said:
@KINGJAMES447: But Lucifer lost his powers in a realm of Gods who themselves weren't omnipotent.
I believe this was A: A depowered Lucifer anyhow (he was looking to get his wings, and thus his full power, back, so he clearly wasn't at his full, multiversal reality warping powers yet) and B: Of his own willingness to do so, as they could not force him to give up his powers and immortality without his consent.
@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:
The Presence is not even omnipotent (well at least Pre-52). Anyways I say Lucifer and Michael win.
And exactly why do you assume that he is not omnipotent? You cannot tie that off shoot series Vertigo in with the entire DC U. Reason 1. It was a mini series that was made to be separate from continuity. 2. A comment in Vertigo about that even God was created does not mean he is not omnipotent. For heavens sake The One Above All is a comic book written from a different universe and he designed and created the Marvel U. So even he was created by someone else. His effects don't affect anything outside of the comic realm. 3. Non of that was said does not conclude that neither being is omnipotent. 4. The fact that in a swamp thing arc the Great Evil Beast made his way through heaven ect ect and easily went though Spectre and Heaven proves his omnipotence. The fact that God had evil and he made two sides to himself both living versions of him makes him omnipotent. Ive seen no sign that shows any limit to his power. None. So unless you have proof. Which their is none. He is omnipotent in the DCU.
@SpectresWrath01 said:
And exactly why do you assume that he is not omnipotent? You cannot tie that off shoot series Vertigo in with the entire DC U. Reason 1. It was a mini series that was made to be separate from continuity. 2. A comment in Vertigo about that even God was created does not mean he is not omnipotent. For heavens sake The One Above All is a comic book written from a different universe and he designed and created the Marvel U. So even he was created by someone else.His effects don't affect anything outside of the comic realm. 3. Non of that was said does not conclude that neither being is omnipotent. 4. The fact that in a swamp thing arc the Great Evil Beast made his way through heaven ect ect and easily went though Spectre and Heaven proves his omnipotence. The fact that God had evil and he made two sides to himself both living versions of him makes him omnipotent. Ive seen no sign that shows any limit to his power. None. So unless you have proof. Which their is none. He is omnipotent in the DCU.
Exactly what are are you trying to prove? I don't know why you bring TOAA into this when I didn't even mention him at all in my posts. It seems you rather go off-topic then stay on it. TOAA and Presence are creations of comic book writers so I don't see why they would have any affect on things outside their own comic book realms. So why bring it up? Also the Great Evil Beast existed before Presence even created the world. It predates him. It says so in the Swamp Thing Arc. Also if you were to discount Vertigo then practically anything with Lucifer, Michael, the Endless would be discounted from the DCU. Yet DC still acknowledges things that happen in Vertigo as being true in the DC universe (i.e. Morpheus' death and Daniel Hall becoming the new Dream). Presence from Vertigo is the same Presence in DC.
@AdmiralNAkbar said:
@Killemall: Imagine a batman with Zero Hour Parallax and became the host for the Spectre.
actually, though batman never became a host for the spectre he did once take control of the spectre (spectre allowed it).
@OmgOmgWtfWtf: Some say though the GEB was weaker than the Presence because Presence may have stalemated the GEB because of the Presnce's mercy.
@AdmiralNAkbar: It's really speculation if the Presence was greater than the GEB or vice versa. The ying and yang sign that appeared when they fused seems to indicate that they were equals.
@OmgOmgWtfWtf: Man I wish before they made DCnU they did something like COIE again. I know Infinite Crisis should suffice but it didn't have 2 big guys duking it out with reality collapsing around them.
I want a battle like an Anti Monitor being fighting off Michael or Lucifer. I want those 2 to make a legit appearance in the DC universe. Show their power to the Justice League and such. I want them to become characters of main continuity just like Living Tribunal pops up in Marvel every now and then.
@AdmiralNAkbar said:
I want a battle like an Anti Monitor being fighting off Michael or Lucifer. I want those 2 to make a legit appearance in the DC universe. Show their power to the Justice League and such. I want them to become characters of main continuity just like Living Tribunal pops up in Marvel every now and then.
You're gonna be waiting awhile since Michael is dead and Lucifer is chilling out in the void after having given up all of his powers and doing away with the rest of reality.
@AdmiralNAkbar said:
I want a battle like an Anti Monitor being fighting off Michael or Lucifer. I want those 2 to make a legit appearance in the DC universe. Show their power to the Justice League and such. I want them to become characters of main continuity just like Living Tribunal pops up in Marvel every now and then.
I can feel you hear. Lucifer is one of my favorite characters in any form of (fictional) literature. However, as someone said, Michael won't be coming back and Lucifer...well, I guess it would take some type of ancient ritual from Mazikeen or direct intervention of the Presensce.
@OblivionKnight: Well if DC rebooted everyone why won't those 2 reboot? And they also now made the Spectre even more puny than before I hear.
@AdmiralNAkbar said:
@Outside_85: I thought Mandrakk would be like the Ganthet of the Monitors because THE MONITOR split himself into 52 and Mandrakk I believe became the leader of these 52 monitors.
Mandrakk was at one point called Dax Novu who was introduced as the best and brightest of a race of science gods (it's never mentioned if they had a leader), but was eventually corrupted by his own research, if anything he's the Lucifer of the Monitors (or Pariah from COIE who shares the same kind of story).
Also while it is not told in a straight line Morrison explained it all as quasi-biblical.
First there was only the perfection that was Monitor.
Then Monitor discovered a flaw that is then contained within a concept for Monitor to make sense of it
Within the flaw Monitor finds infinite scope of possibility
Monitor then dispatched a probe to examine further, but is struck by the concept of 'story' and splits in two (presumably the probe is the COIE Monitor and Anti-Monitor)
The flaw is sealed inside a suit (The Thought Robot, Dax Novu's Final Gift)
But the damage is done, Monitor is infected with 'story' and creates the race of Monitors (numbering more than 52) who's civilization lasted for eons before Final Crisis.
So apparently I was wrong on some points, but given the split between Monitor and Anti-Monitor it is perhaps reasonable to think that both suffered some kind of amnesia.
@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:
@SpectresWrath01 said:
And exactly why do you assume that he is not omnipotent? You cannot tie that off shoot series Vertigo in with the entire DC U. Reason 1. It was a mini series that was made to be separate from continuity. 2. A comment in Vertigo about that even God was created does not mean he is not omnipotent. For heavens sake The One Above All is a comic book written from a different universe and he designed and created the Marvel U. So even he was created by someone else.His effects don't affect anything outside of the comic realm. 3. Non of that was said does not conclude that neither being is omnipotent. 4. The fact that in a swamp thing arc the Great Evil Beast made his way through heaven ect ect and easily went though Spectre and Heaven proves his omnipotence. The fact that God had evil and he made two sides to himself both living versions of him makes him omnipotent. Ive seen no sign that shows any limit to his power. None. So unless you have proof. Which their is none. He is omnipotent in the DCU.
Exactly what are are you trying to prove? I don't know why you bring TOAA into this when I didn't even mention him at all in my posts. It seems you rather go off-topic then stay on it. TOAA and Presence are creations of comic book writers so I don't see why they would have any affect on things outside their own comic book realms. So why bring it up? Also the Great Evil Beast existed before Presence even created the world. It predates him. It says so in the Swamp Thing Arc. Also if you were to discount Vertigo then practically anything with Lucifer, Michael, the Endless would be discounted from the DCU. Yet DC still acknowledges things that happen in Vertigo as being true in the DC universe (i.e. Morpheus' death and Daniel Hall becoming the new Dream). Presence from Vertigo is the same Presence in DC.
1.Off top comparisons are the best way to prove your point. The reason why I did this is because you were obviously targeting the Presence that was in Vertigo. You yourself were going to make a off topic comparison.
2. Just because TOAA is the writer for the all Marvel U Comics doesnt mean he does have power in the DCU. I said his power is limited to the comic book universe. Im sure he would still have his omnipotent powers in the DCU if he ever went there. Same goes for the Presence.
3. The Great Evil Beast is the Presence. So saying he came first is kind of weird. Granted I understand the quote came from the comics but it Prob ment that in the beginning there was evil in the Presence so the GEB coming first means exactly what it says before the Presence was got rid of all of his evil it was them together. And he was more evil.
4. Veritgo series Lucifer was not in continuity. And yes DC often does take things off continuity and put it into continuity. They do this to get fan approval.
Examples: Currently in New 52 DC has make references to Pre- 52 like they happened. Like Superman dying.
Superman Prime 1 million is a taking off of All Star Superman, and Prime 1 million was in continuity. The list goes on and on it really does.
@SpectresWrath01:
1.Off top comparisons are the best way to prove your point. The reason why I did this is because you were obviously targeting the Presence that was in Vertigo. You yourself were going to make a off topic comparison.
So what are you trying to say exactly? That Vertigo's Presence =/= DC's Presence?
2. Just because TOAA is the writer for the all Marvel U Comics doesnt mean he does have power in the DCU. I said his power is limited to the comic book universe. Im sure he would still have his omnipotent powers in the DCU if he ever went there. Same goes for the Presence.
What is the point of bringing this up? Of course their 'powers' are limited to the comic book world. They are works of fiction. Not real. This is basically semantics at this point.
3. The Great Evil Beast is the Presence. So saying he came first is kind of weird. Granted I understand the quote came from the comics but it Prob ment that in the beginning there was evil in the Presence so the GEB coming first means exactly what it says before the Presence was got rid of all of his evil it was them together. And he was more evil.
The Great Evil Beast is not the Presence. It was never stated to be anything related to him. It was the endless void from which the Presence was defined. It only gained sentience when Presence created the world thus creating light and dark (a.k.a. good and evil). If they were the same thing there would be no point in them fusing together in the end, because it would be redundant if they were truly the same being.
4. Veritgo series Lucifer was not in continuity. And yes DC often does take things off continuity and put it into continuity. They do this to get fan approval.
So how does this disprove the Presence in Vertigo is not the same Presence in DC? You just said yourself that DC takes things from Vertigo and make it canon. The reason behind why they do it is inconsequential.
Examples: Currently in New 52 DC has make references to Pre- 52 like they happened. Like Superman dying.
Given that they haven't gone into detail what is still canon and not in regards to the events of Pre-52 this is speculation. The fact they fused Vertigo, Wildstorm and DC together pretty much means that Vertigo's Presence is now DC's Presence, and that they are one in the same.
@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:
@SpectresWrath01:
1.Off top comparisons are the best way to prove your point. The reason why I did this is because you were obviously targeting the Presence that was in Vertigo. You yourself were going to make a off topic comparison.So what are you trying to say exactly? That Vertigo's Presence =/= DC's Presence?
2. Just because TOAA is the writer for the all Marvel U Comics doesnt mean he does have power in the DCU. I said his power is limited to the comic book universe. Im sure he would still have his omnipotent powers in the DCU if he ever went there. Same goes for the Presence.What is the point of bringing this up? Of course their 'powers' are limited to the comic book world. They are works of fiction. Not real. This is basically semantics at this point.
3. The Great Evil Beast is the Presence. So saying he came first is kind of weird. Granted I understand the quote came from the comics but it Prob ment that in the beginning there was evil in the Presence so the GEB coming first means exactly what it says before the Presence was got rid of all of his evil it was them together. And he was more evil.The Great Evil Beast is not the Presence. It was never stated to be anything related to him. It was the endless void from which the Presence was defined. It only gained sentience when Presence created the world thus creating light and dark (a.k.a. good and evil). If they were the same thing there would be no point in them fusing together in the end, because it would be redundant if they were truly the same being.
4. Veritgo series Lucifer was not in continuity. And yes DC often does take things off continuity and put it into continuity. They do this to get fan approval.So how does this disprove the Presence in Vertigo is not the same Presence in DC? You just said yourself that DC takes things from Vertigo and make it canon. The reason behind why they do it is inconsequential.
Examples: Currently in New 52 DC has make references to Pre- 52 like they happened. Like Superman dying.Given that they haven't gone into detail what is still canon and not in regards to the events of Pre-52 this is speculation. The fact they fused Vertigo, Wildstorm and DC together pretty much means that Vertigo's Presence is now DC's Presence, and that they are one in the same.
So what are you trying to say exactly? That Vertigo's Presence =/= DC's Presence?
Yes they are.....but only because Vertigo took the Presence character from DC. They are feeding off each other but one is normal continuity and the other is not.
what is the point of bringing this up? Of course their 'powers' are limited to the comic book world. They are works of fiction. Not real. This is basically semantics at this point.
Semantics definition- is the study of meaning. Or having a problem with understanding....that word doesnt really fit here. No offense. Maybe you mean that this is pointless or bothersome. Either way it doesnt matter Im not upset with you in the slightest I simply stated that if you say the Presence isnt omnipotent you need proof to back it up. Just saying it and going off what you said isnt enough. Prove your point.
Great Evil Beast is not the Presence. It was never stated to be anything related to him. It was the endless void from which the Presence was defined. It only gained sentience when Presence created the world thus creating light and dark (a.k.a. good and evil). If they were the same thing there would be no point in them fusing together in the end, because it would be redundant if they were truly the same being.
I remember the ending of the swamp thing story line going as the Presence and the Great Darkness not creating one another and they were two halfs of the same coin. The ultimate light and the ultimate darkness. At the end they merged together becoming one. Either way this does not prove the presence is not omnipotent.
So how does this disprove the Presence in Vertigo is not the same Presence in DC? You just said yourself that DC takes things from Vertigo and make it canon. The reason behind why they do it is inconsequential.
Its ment as a teaser. If its not in the main stream continuity it did not happen. So even though All Star Superman becomes Superman Prime 1 million in his own series. The fact that Superman Prime 1 million appeared in continuity means those two Superman Primes are two different characters and not the same. One is cannon and the other is not.
They are the same character but at the sametime they are not. Or its 2 different universes and it is the same character. Either way we cannot assume it is because its not cannon. Until Dc says otherwise that is.
Given that they haven't gone into detail what is still canon and not in regards to the events of Pre-52 this is speculation. The fact they fused Vertigo, Wildstorm and DC together pretty much means that Vertigo's Presence is now DC's Presence, and that they are one in the same.
Like you said its Speculation. It probably is but until stated otherwise they are two completely different universes and one is cannon the other is not.
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