#1 Posted by DarkScarecrow (372 posts) - - Show Bio

Battlefield ; The World Martial Arts Tournament. 
No prep. 
Goten and Trunks are serious. 17 is pretty serious but not too serious. 
KO ftw. 
Morals on. 
Who wins?

vs 
  
#2 Posted by demifiendninja (299 posts) - - Show Bio

team

#3 Posted by SpeedForceSpider (902 posts) - - Show Bio

The boys take this.

#4 Posted by Bane_of_sith (2796 posts) - - Show Bio

Team wins IMO

#5 Posted by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

17 wrecks the team.

#6 Posted by terry2012 (5719 posts) - - Show Bio

Team wins. They gave android 18 A hard fight and they can fuse together.

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe: You must had forgotten they can do the fusion.

#7 Posted by Laurcus (1303 posts) - - Show Bio

Goten and Trunks do dirty things to him. And by that I mean they win the fight, and everyone walks away like perfect gentlemen. Nothing else happened. Nothing.

#8 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

So people are saying the two kids together are more powerful than Vegeta, without fusion?

#9 Posted by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless they fuse, 17 destroys them easily. Goten & Trunks are just basic SSJ by themselves. Remember what the androids did to Vegeta, Future Trunks, Piccolo, & the others to start off with.

#10 Posted by Frozen (15041 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

So people are saying the two kids together are more powerful than Vegeta, without fusion?

What? In fusion, it's debatable. Without fusion, no. Their best chance is fusion, with fusion they might win.

Online
#11 Posted by Frozen (15041 posts) - - Show Bio

I see the OP states that Goten and Trunks are both serious. If so, I'd imagine them using their powers to the fullest of their abilities and fusing.

Online
#12 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@Frozen said:

@Killemall said:

So people are saying the two kids together are more powerful than Vegeta, without fusion?

What? In fusion, it's debatable. Without fusion, no. Their best chance is fusion, with fusion they might win.

Thats what i was thinking, Vegeta Super Saiyan 1 lost to Android 18 who on par with Andriod 17. I dont see the kids winning without a fusion.

#13 Posted by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio

The fusion does have a flaw though. 17 would have to let them fuse because it does take time to do.

#14 Edited by Man_of_Miracles (1817 posts) - - Show Bio

They lose without fusion.

Android 17 would probably let them fuse because he is not being too serious and he is overconfident.

If they fuse they take it easily.

#15 Edited by kcaz (1371 posts) - - Show Bio

android 18 was weaker than android 17, but when 17 was fighting with the 2 boys, she had the upper hand, even though she was holding back. ssj trunks wasnt at ssj vegeta's level when they spar, where vegeta was holding back, and android 18 defeated ssj vegeta. so android 17 will stomp, unless they fuse

#16 Posted by greenteaforme (1826 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Posted by niBBit (718 posts) - - Show Bio

Android 17 wins this.

#18 Edited by SHAZAM117 (3565 posts) - - Show Bio

The boys win this....Super17 would be a better fight....EDIT: then again that might make it a "stomp" in his favor

#19 Edited by Laurcus (1303 posts) - - Show Bio

@kcaz said:

android 18 was weaker than android 17, but when 17 was fighting with the 2 boys, she had the upper hand, even though she was holding back. ssj trunks wasnt at ssj vegeta's level when they spar, where vegeta was holding back, and android 18 defeated ssj vegeta. so android 17 will stomp, unless they fuse

That's terrible logic. Android 18 defeated Android saga Vegeta. The Zenkai he got from that alone would probably have put him on her level. Even not counting Ascended Super Saiyan, you can't discount his years of training, and the 2 other Zenkais he most certainly got from Cell.

In DBZ, you can't just say something is Super Saiyan level, or Super Saiyan 2 level, etc. Because those are just multipliers tacked on to the base power level. And as we see from earlier in the series, base power level goes up pretty consistently. In fact, I say Goten and Trunks stomp. They held their own against 18 pretty well when they were forced to hold back. Then they trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and fought Super Buu.

#20 Posted by demifiendninja (299 posts) - - Show Bio

i think trunks and goten are a little stronger than vegeta when he fought android 18. 
but a lotttt weaker than vegeta in buu series. 
 
 
team takes this

#21 Posted by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus said:

@kcaz said:

android 18 was weaker than android 17, but when 17 was fighting with the 2 boys, she had the upper hand, even though she was holding back. ssj trunks wasnt at ssj vegeta's level when they spar, where vegeta was holding back, and android 18 defeated ssj vegeta. so android 17 will stomp, unless they fuse

That's terrible logic. Android 18 defeated Android saga Vegeta. The Zenkai he got from that alone would probably have put him on her level. Even not counting Ascended Super Saiyan, you can't discount his years of training, and the 2 other Zenkais he most certainly got from Cell.

In DBZ, you can't just say something is Super Saiyan level, or Super Saiyan 2 le the andrivel, etc. Because those are just multipliers tacked on to the base power level. And as we see from earlier in the series, base power level goes up pretty consistently. In fact, I say Goten and Trunks stomp. They held their own against 18 pretty well when they were forced to hold back. Then they trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and fought Super Buu.

To beat the androids, Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, & Future Trunks had to move beyond super saiyan. All of them reached the full power super saiyan level. Kid Trunks & Goten did not reach that level, & they are not at 17's level seperate. Without fusion, 17 easily takes this. To think otherwise is just ignorant.

#22 Posted by SMDfanboys (158 posts) - - Show Bio
#23 Posted by Laurcus (1303 posts) - - Show Bio

@randumo24 said:

@Laurcus said:

@kcaz said:

android 18 was weaker than android 17, but when 17 was fighting with the 2 boys, she had the upper hand, even though she was holding back. ssj trunks wasnt at ssj vegeta's level when they spar, where vegeta was holding back, and android 18 defeated ssj vegeta. so android 17 will stomp, unless they fuse

That's terrible logic. Android 18 defeated Android saga Vegeta. The Zenkai he got from that alone would probably have put him on her level. Even not counting Ascended Super Saiyan, you can't discount his years of training, and the 2 other Zenkais he most certainly got from Cell.

In DBZ, you can't just say something is Super Saiyan level, or Super Saiyan 2 le the andrivel, etc. Because those are just multipliers tacked on to the base power level. And as we see from earlier in the series, base power level goes up pretty consistently. In fact, I say Goten and Trunks stomp. They held their own against 18 pretty well when they were forced to hold back. Then they trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and fought Super Buu.

To beat the androids, Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, & Future Trunks had to move beyond super saiyan. All of them reached the full power super saiyan level. Kid Trunks & Goten did not reach that level, & they are not at 17's level seperate. Without fusion, 17 easily takes this. To think otherwise is just ignorant.

The terms you're thinking in are far too binary. FPSS is just a higher Super Saiyan level. What matters is the base power level. If Goten and Trunks have a higher base power level than Vegeta and Trunks did during the Android saga, then they wouldn't need FPSS. And we don't have any idea what their base power level was in comparison to the Androids. You're acting as if their training in the Time Chamber did nothing for their base power levels.

Also, you're incorrect to include Goku and Gohan in your assessment. Neither of them fought 17 and 18 as Super Saiyans. Goku had a sham of a fight against 19, that Piccolo claimed Goku should have won easily. He was clearly weakened by the heart virus, and by how much is purely up to speculation. And Gohan never fought any of the Androids as a Super Saiyan, or period for that matter.

People on these boards need to stop acting like they have a clue about how powerful characters are past the Frieza saga.

#24 Posted by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus said:

@randumo24 said:

@Laurcus said:

@kcaz said:

android 18 was weaker than android 17, but when 17 was fighting with the 2 boys, she had the upper hand, even though she was holding back. ssj trunks wasnt at ssj vegeta's level when they spar, where vegeta was holding back, and android 18 defeated ssj vegeta. so android 17 will stomp, unless they fuse

That's terrible logic. Android 18 defeated Android saga Vegeta. The Zenkai he got from that alone would probably have put him on her level. Even not counting Ascended Super Saiyan, you can't discount his years of training, and the 2 other Zenkais he most certainly got from Cell.

In DBZ, you can't just say something is Super Saiyan level, or Super Saiyan 2 le the andrivel, etc. Because those are just multipliers tacked on to the base power level. And as we see from earlier in the series, base power level goes up pretty consistently. In fact, I say Goten and Trunks stomp. They held their own against 18 pretty well when they were forced to hold back. Then they trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and fought Super Buu.

To beat the androids, Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, & Future Trunks had to move beyond super saiyan. All of them reached the full power super saiyan level. Kid Trunks & Goten did not reach that level, & they are not at 17's level seperate. Without fusion, 17 easily takes this. To think otherwise is just ignorant.

The terms you're thinking in are far too binary. FPSS is just a higher Super Saiyan level. What matters is the base power level. If Goten and Trunks have a higher base power level than Vegeta and Trunks did during the Android saga, then they wouldn't need FPSS. And we don't have any idea what their base power level was in comparison to the Androids. You're acting as if their training in the Time Chamber did nothing for their base power levels.

Also, you're incorrect to include Goku and Gohan in your assessment. Neither of them fought 17 and 18 as Super Saiyans. Goku had a sham of a fight against 19, that Piccolo claimed Goku should have won easily. He was clearly weakened by the heart virus, and by how much is purely up to speculation. And Gohan never fought any of the Androids as a Super Saiyan, or period for that matter.

People on these boards need to stop acting like they have a clue about how powerful characters are past the Frieza saga.

Trunks & Goten were the weakest super saiyans ever before the time chamber. They were only in there for a couple months, not a whole year. The majority of the time was spent perfecting the fusion, not individual strength. The FPSSJ was a boost in power over basic SSJ. It's easy to assume Gohan's strength as FPSSJ by what others said. It was clear that Goku was stronger at FPSSJ than Vegeta or Trunks were in their super forms, and King Kai said that Gohan was actually stronger than Goku.

#25 Posted by Laurcus (1303 posts) - - Show Bio

@randumo24 said:

@Laurcus said:

@randumo24 said:

@Laurcus said:

@kcaz said:

android 18 was weaker than android 17, but when 17 was fighting with the 2 boys, she had the upper hand, even though she was holding back. ssj trunks wasnt at ssj vegeta's level when they spar, where vegeta was holding back, and android 18 defeated ssj vegeta. so android 17 will stomp, unless they fuse

That's terrible logic. Android 18 defeated Android saga Vegeta. The Zenkai he got from that alone would probably have put him on her level. Even not counting Ascended Super Saiyan, you can't discount his years of training, and the 2 other Zenkais he most certainly got from Cell.

In DBZ, you can't just say something is Super Saiyan level, or Super Saiyan 2 le the andrivel, etc. Because those are just multipliers tacked on to the base power level. And as we see from earlier in the series, base power level goes up pretty consistently. In fact, I say Goten and Trunks stomp. They held their own against 18 pretty well when they were forced to hold back. Then they trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and fought Super Buu.

To beat the androids, Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, & Future Trunks had to move beyond super saiyan. All of them reached the full power super saiyan level. Kid Trunks & Goten did not reach that level, & they are not at 17's level seperate. Without fusion, 17 easily takes this. To think otherwise is just ignorant.

The terms you're thinking in are far too binary. FPSS is just a higher Super Saiyan level. What matters is the base power level. If Goten and Trunks have a higher base power level than Vegeta and Trunks did during the Android saga, then they wouldn't need FPSS. And we don't have any idea what their base power level was in comparison to the Androids. You're acting as if their training in the Time Chamber did nothing for their base power levels.

Also, you're incorrect to include Goku and Gohan in your assessment. Neither of them fought 17 and 18 as Super Saiyans. Goku had a sham of a fight against 19, that Piccolo claimed Goku should have won easily. He was clearly weakened by the heart virus, and by how much is purely up to speculation. And Gohan never fought any of the Androids as a Super Saiyan, or period for that matter.

People on these boards need to stop acting like they have a clue about how powerful characters are past the Frieza saga.

Trunks & Goten were the weakest super saiyans ever before the time chamber. They were only in there for a couple months, not a whole year. The majority of the time was spent perfecting the fusion, not individual strength. The FPSSJ was a boost in power over basic SSJ. It's easy to assume Gohan's strength as FPSSJ by what others said. It was clear that Goku was stronger at FPSSJ than Vegeta or Trunks were in their super forms, and King Kai said that Gohan was actually stronger than Goku.

I'm not sure why you're linking videos about Gohan. I'm well aware of what FPSS is, and I'm also aware that Gohan was stronger than Goku, and that Goku was stronger than Future Trunks and Vegeta. None of that has anything to do with how strong Goten and Trunks are.

Because the fact is, we have no idea how strong Goten and Trunks were to being with, and we have no idea how much power they gained in the Time Chamber. The part that I bolded in the quote is something that you made up. There's no evidence to support that statement at all.

#26 Posted by solesamurai (591 posts) - - Show Bio

It's pretty Ignorant to try and Gauge Goten and trunks Power levels before they went into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. They never had a serious fight before hand to even gauge their full potential a bit, or afterwards even. Point is Goten and Trunks by themselves are featless. Comes down to whether They can fuse in 17's face and how he would fair against Gotenks. I say that because given how similar in personality 17 is to Vegeta, he would allow them to fuse even if he knew everything about it. It would be more fair to put super 17 against them since normal 17 cannot win against Gotenks.

#27 Posted by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus said:

I'm not sure why you're linking videos about Gohan. I'm well aware of what FPSS is, and I'm also aware that Gohan was stronger than Goku, and that Goku was stronger than Future Trunks and Vegeta. None of that has anything to do with how strong Goten and Trunks are.

Because the fact is, we have no idea how strong Goten and Trunks were to being with, and we have no idea how much power they gained in the Time Chamber. The part that I bolded in the quote is something that you made up. There's no evidence to support that statement at all.

It's obvious that they were the weakest. They were just natural super saiyans, and didn't get there by training really. Their base power would not have been very high, therefor their transformed form would be weaker than the others as well. A couple months practicing fusion in the time chamber is not going to do more than the years of training that all of them did for the androids coming. I don't know why you fail to see the obvious.

#28 Posted by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

SSJ Kid Trunks and SSJ Goten were both regular SSJ levels. They get absolutely murdered by 17 unless they can pull off the fusion into Gotenks.

#29 Edited by Laurcus (1303 posts) - - Show Bio

@randumo24 said:

@Laurcus said:

I'm not sure why you're linking videos about Gohan. I'm well aware of what FPSS is, and I'm also aware that Gohan was stronger than Goku, and that Goku was stronger than Future Trunks and Vegeta. None of that has anything to do with how strong Goten and Trunks are.

Because the fact is, we have no idea how strong Goten and Trunks were to being with, and we have no idea how much power they gained in the Time Chamber. The part that I bolded in the quote is something that you made up. There's no evidence to support that statement at all.

It's obvious that they were the weakest. They were just natural super saiyans, and didn't get there by training really. Their base power would not have been very high, therefor their transformed form would be weaker than the others as well. A couple months practicing fusion in the time chamber is not going to do more than the years of training that all of them did for the androids coming. I don't know why you fail to see the obvious.

You say it's obvious, I disagree. We have no data on them. There is no viable way to compare them to other Super Saiyans pre Buu saga. You're making assumptions based on data that doesn't exist. If their power followed the same patterns as the rest of their families, then they shouldn't even be Super Saiyans to begin with. It's impossible to say how strong they were when they first transformed. For all we know they couldn't take First Form Frieza, or they might be more powerful than Semi-Perfect Cell. There's just no way of knowing.

There is no such thing as "regular Super Saiyan levels" as you describe them. The various Super Saiyan forms just multiply the base power level. And we have no way of knowing the base power level of Goten and Trunks.

#30 Posted by Deranged Midget (17822 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless Trunks and Goten are able to turn into Super Saiyans, I don't see them winning. 18 was able to hold her own quite well and even gain a slight advantage against the two during the martial arts tournament. Albeit, they were restricted in terms of movement.

Moderator
#31 Posted by OmegaDynasty (9196 posts) - - Show Bio
@Deranged Midget said:

Unless Trunks and Goten are able to turn into Super Saiyans, I don't see them winning. 18 was able to hold her own quite well and even gain a slight advantage against the two during the martial arts tournament. Albeit, they were restricted in terms of movement.

Super Saiyan form didn't do much for Vegeta.  
  
#32 Posted by Deranged Midget (17822 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmegaDynasty: Different power levels completely. At the point where Goten and Trunks are in comparison, they are Full-powered Super-saiyans impressing both Vegeta and Gohan especially at their young ages. I'm not saying they'd win easily against 17, but 18 never defeated either of them when they transformed.

Moderator
#33 Edited by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget said:

@OmegaDynasty: Different power levels completely. At the point where Goten and Trunks are in comparison, they are Full-powered Super-saiyans impressing both Vegeta and Gohan especially at their young ages. I'm not saying they'd win easily against 17, but 18 never defeated either of them when they transformed.

They weren't full powered, they were just regular SSJ. Gohan & Vegeta were impressed more because of their ages.

@Laurcus: You're wrong. I'm not making baseless assumptions. I am making the best possible way to judge their power level based on everything in the series. You fail to realize that just because they aren't given a numbered power level, they can be judged.

#34 Posted by Deranged Midget (17822 posts) - - Show Bio

@randumo24: Full-powered Super Saiyans was the only state possible of retaining energy with such ease and maintaing a more "enlightened" attitude. It's completely evident between Goku's first transformations against Frieza and Android 19 compared to when he and Gohan mastered the form.

Goten and Trunks did the same.

Moderator
#35 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

Android 17>Android 18.

17 underestimates the, they get in a few good hits but then 17 beats them both down after a good fight.

Assuming fusion is out, of course.

#36 Posted by dbzmeister (73 posts) - - Show Bio

Non-canon but they were able to hold their own for a reaosnable amount of time against Broly who would stomp 17 imho.

#37 Posted by Laurcus (1303 posts) - - Show Bio

@randumo24 said:

@Deranged Midget said:

@OmegaDynasty: Different power levels completely. At the point where Goten and Trunks are in comparison, they are Full-powered Super-saiyans impressing both Vegeta and Gohan especially at their young ages. I'm not saying they'd win easily against 17, but 18 never defeated either of them when they transformed.

They weren't full powered, they were just regular SSJ. Gohan & Vegeta were impressed more because of their ages.

@Laurcus: You're wrong. I'm not making baseless assumptions. I am making the best possible way to judge their power level based on everything in the series. You fail to realize that just because they aren't given a numbered power level, they can be judged.

No, I'm not wrong. And your assessment of my position is also wrong. They do not have any numbered power level OR any significant feats that we could gauge their powers with post ROSAT. The best feats they have that don't involve fusion is their battle against Android 18, which frankly doesn't tell much. We don't know how hard 18 was trying, or how hard Goten and Trunks were trying. We also don't know if 18 is as powerful as she was back in the Android saga. For all we know she could have weakened, or even grown stronger over time. We also don't know exactly how much they improved during their training. They also could have gotten several Zenkais from their fights with Fat Buu and Super Buu respectively.

In short, we have a serious lack of information about their powers. But, all the facts we do have point to them getting stronger. By how much though is the unanswerable question.

#38 Posted by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget said:

@randumo24: Full-powered Super Saiyans was the only state possible of retaining energy with such ease and maintaing a more "enlightened" attitude. It's completely evident between Goku's first transformations against Frieza and Android 19 compared to when he and Gohan mastered the form.

Goten and Trunks did the same.

They didn't master the form. FP SSJ requires you to be in a constant state of SSJ. Gohan was only able to learn it because of Goku. Even Vegeta was not able to figure it out in his over a year in that room. Training for a couple months to practice fusion with Piccolo, clearly not an expert on the SSJ form, would not give them the FPSSJ form ability.

#39 Posted by Deranged Midget (17822 posts) - - Show Bio

@randumo24: It's been stated that both Goku and Gohan decided to master the first form of Super Saiyan instead of taking another turn inside the Hyperbolic Time chamber. In turn, they were able to constantly retain Super Saiyan form without the extreme stress that it puts on their body, and it allows them to become more powerful during a battle as they aren't required to use energy to transform.

Moderator
#40 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (4432 posts) - - Show Bio

17 beats the featless wonders unless they pull of fusion

#41 Posted by Living_Monstrosity (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus:Zenkais are no longer achieved once SSJ has been obtained.

#42 Posted by Laurcus (1303 posts) - - Show Bio

@Living_Monstrosity said:

@Laurcus:Zenkais are no longer achieved once SSJ has been obtained.

Prove it or it's BS. That is a fan created myth.

#43 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Without fusion, Team gets murdered.