Ancients and Ori Vs the Tardis.

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Do I have to give a name?

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So I've read in other forums how a single Tardis could solo the federation, and I've read here how the Ancients and ori can also beat the hell out of the federation. So who wins if they're put against each other? Both sides are at full power.

I won't be getting involved in this thread as i know F*#k all about either side. But hopefully there will be some interesting replies. Thanks.

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Methos

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#2  Edited By Methos

firstly... what do you mean "The TARDIS"?

If you're talking about a race of Time Lords at their full power... well, nothing is going to stand against that... not The Federation, Not The Ancients, Not The Ori or anyone else from the SG universe...

Do some reasearch on what the Time Lords actually were capable of when at the height of their power... they mastered dimensional travel and regulated the entire timeline for millions of dimensions... they created Black Holes and mastered controling them with their minds...

Their technological level against The Ancients is laughable... it's like comparing The Ancients to Medieval Earth

M

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Do I have to give a name?

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@Methos:
"Do some reasearch on what the Time Lords actually were capable of when at the height of their power... they mastered dimensional travel and regulated the entire timeline for millions of dimensions... they created Black Holes and mastered controling them with their minds"
------------------------------------------------
They also changed the laws of physics so that magic no longer existed. Had handguns that could reduce anything to the gluon level, could trap people/Races in time loops and supposedly have the ability to ascend to god like beings, only they have a mental block. Plus a whole bunch of other ridiculous feats from like 40 years of shows.

Thing is the thread says The Tardis. the first line of the thread is "So I've read in other forums how a single Tardis could solo the federation" So I really don't see the confusion.
When I said "Both sides are at full power" I merely meant that the Tardis is running perfectly on all systems at the start of the battle and that the Ancients and Ori are bringing all they have.

Don't know how much a single Tardis is really capable of but I hear it's pretty damn unstoppable, and I know nothing about the other people but they seem to be popular on the boards so I figured someone would have a view on it.


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Methos

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#4  Edited By Methos

Well, a single TARDIS with a Time Lord who was willing to go as far as he wated, eg The Master or The Rani, would just go back in time and destroy the Milky Way Galaxy before The Federation or any of the Milkey Way inhabitants could evolve...

Job Done, 1 - 0 To the Time Lords

M

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randumo24

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#5  Edited By randumo24

 

Do I have to give a name? said:
So I've read in other forums how a single Tardis could solo the federation, and I've read here how the ... [more]


pre or post ascension?

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randumo24

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#6  Edited By randumo24
Methos said:
Well, a single TARDIS with a Time Lord who was willing to go as far as he wated, eg The ... [more]

they havent shown a whole lot of time lord technology, and the ancients developed time travel as well. after ascension time lords wouldnt have a chance.
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Methos

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#7  Edited By Methos

Really?

Funny, i have documents of Time Lords holding back Black Holes with their minds...

I've never seen any ascended being do anything like that before, and i'm a BIG Stargate fan

M

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randumo24

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#8  Edited By randumo24
Methos said:
Really?Funny, i have documents of Time Lords holding back Black Holes with their minds...I've never seen any ascended being do ... [more]

maybe, but do you have anything where they destroyed a fleet of ships with their minds, cuz i do.
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Methos

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#9  Edited By Methos

go on then... show me an ascended being destroying a fleet of ships with their mind?

this is just for fun of course, the thread states clearly the Ancients and the Ori, not the Ascended beings

M

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randumo24

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#10  Edited By randumo24

well it does say both sides at full power, and there's no denying that they are at full power after ascending. It happened on the atlantis episode "Sanctuary". Chaya Sar destroyed a fleet of wraith ships thousands of years earlier as well.

  
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Methos

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#11  Edited By Methos

Yup, the electromagnetic field created to destroy a few ships...

I don't see it destroying a fleet of ships, but i do recognise your point that they can create intense electromagnetic attacks... Oma Desala also showed they can control nature to a point when she oblitorated Apophis' army

But that's neither here nor there... creating an electromagnetic arc like that is pretty impressive... but again, that's nothing compared to holding back a black hole with just the power of your mind

M

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randumo24

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#12  Edited By randumo24
Methos said:
Yup, the electromagnetic field created to destroy a few ships...I don't see it destroying a fleet of ships, but i ... [more]

ah but its not just an electromagnetic field, it didnt harm the jumper, only the wraith ships.
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Methos

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#13  Edited By Methos

so it's a controlled EM field... i admit, it's a damn cool feat

M

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randumo24

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#14  Edited By randumo24

yup, i the fact that the time lords are still corporeal and can phsyically die would lose the fight for them.,

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rightprice

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#15  Edited By rightprice

Unfortunately the ascended ancients have never been shown doing anything really big like the time lords have done.  They may be able to do that kind of heavy duty stuff but they really don't interfere in the lower plains in any really significant way so we can't know their capabilities. 

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randumo24

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#16  Edited By randumo24
rightprice said:
Unfortunately the ascended ancients have never been shown doing anything really big like the time lords have done.  They may ... [more]

what we do know is that they cant be killed by conventional means, where as time lords can.
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Akwa

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#17  Edited By Akwa

Tardis wins.

Doesn't matter how powerful the Ancients are. TARDIS can just go back in time and stop the Ancients from ever existing in the first place.

When it comes to tech, the Time Lords are far above anything in the StarGate Universe.

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randumo24

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#18  Edited By randumo24
Akwa said:
Tardis wins.Doesn't matter how powerful the Ancients are. TARDIS can just go back in time and stop the Ancients from ... [more]

the ancients can time travel as well, your not very smart if you think a time lord could take an ascended ancient.
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Methos

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#19  Edited By Methos

i'm not arguing here, but the Time Lords have defeated Ascended beings and non-corporeal beings before...

it's not a stretch for them...

oh, and the Ancients never mastered Time Travel.. that is a canon fact as both Ancient Time Travel devices were discarded without using

M

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randumo24

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#20  Edited By randumo24
Methos said:
i'm not arguing here, but the Time Lords have defeated Ascended beings and non-corporeal beings before...it's not a stretch for ... [more]

they did use them, it was how the original weir saved atlantis, it was in an episode of atlantis. also by using the stargate, you can travel forward or back in time with the right calculations, the final episode of season 4 of atlantis.
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Methos

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#21  Edited By Methos
randumo24 said:
Methos said: i'm not arguing here, but the Time Lords have defeated Ascended beings and non-corporeal beings before...it's not a ... [more]

um, no... original Weir was put in a cryo-stasis pod, which froze her for the milennia after ending up in the past by accident...

the Ancients never mastered Time Travel... even the Time Travel Puddlejumper wasn't perfect which is why the scientist was told to abandon the project and dismantle the jumper

Yes, you can use the Stargate to travel back and forward in time with the right calculations, anywhere / when the Gate network exists...

the Time Lords aren't limited by that... they can go anywhere, any when...

M
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Chaos Prime

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#22  Edited By Chaos Prime

the police box ftw..
Just its defence system would be too much for SG ships to penetrate imo..

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randumo24

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#23  Edited By randumo24
Methos said:
randumo24 said: Methos said: i'm not arguing here, but the Time Lords have defeated Ascended beings and non-corporeal beings before...it's ... [more]

no it had nothing to do with the time travel not working properly, it had to do with the morality of changing the past.
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Akwa

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#24  Edited By Akwa
randumo24 said:
Akwa said: Tardis wins.Doesn't matter how powerful the Ancients are. TARDIS can just go back in time and stop the ... [more]

I am aware that the Ancients can time travel. But they wouldn't get a chance to use time travel.

If the TARDIS goes back in time and stops the Ancients from existing, then the Ancients can travel back and change the timeline. Because they won't exist anymore. In battle where both sides have time travel, whoever strikes first wins.

And the TARDIS strikes first.
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randumo24

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#25  Edited By randumo24
Akwa said:
randumo24 said: Akwa said: Tardis wins.Doesn't matter how powerful the Ancients are. TARDIS can just go back in time and ... [more]

its doesnt say that, and you dont know who would go back in time first, so i think time travel should be left out.
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Do I have to give a name?

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Well The Timelords have (for all intents and purposes) impenetrable defences up that make their timeline immune to alteration. However, I don't know if these are extended to each individual Tardis. With that said I was hoping to steer away from time travel tactics as I was more interested in The Tardis' defensive/offensive capabilities.

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randumo24

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#27  Edited By randumo24
Do I have to give a name? said:
Well The Timelords have (for all intents and purposes) impenetrable defences up that make their timeline immune to alteration. However, ... [more]

obviously they arent impenetrable or else they wouldnt be able to die. the ancients and ori have the more immpressive technology for this fight.
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Do I have to give a name?

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@randumo24:

Well I don’t really see how having temporal shields would make you immune to death, that’s like saying your car doesn’t work because you can’t paint your house with it lol.

 Anyways I did a little reading up on TARDIS tech and have put some of it below. What Could the Ancients and Ori do to counter it? I’m not being sarcastic when I ask, as I honestly don’t know what they’re capable of

-------------------------------

TARDIS’ are grown, not made They draw their power from several sources, but primarily from the singularity of an artificial black hole, known as the Eye of Harmony They are also said to draw power from the entire universe as revealed in the episode "Rise of the Cybermen"

Temporal invulnerability protects a TARDIS only from external damage caused by normal physical means. Sometimes, TARDIS systems suffer damage from massive disruptions of time/space (Bear in mind that the Doctor has been seen with his TARDIS parked comfortably on the mouth of a black hole, so it would have to be one hell of a disruption) ,stress that passes design tolerances, accidental impacts on or misuse of control equipment, or even deliberate sabotage. The interior of the TARDIS is said to be in a state of "temporal grace" The Fourth Doctor explains that, in a sense, things do not exist while inside the TARDIS. This has the practical effect of ensuring that no weapons can be used inside its environs

In the tie-in novels, the interior of the TARDIS has been known to contain an entire city, used to encompass an entire parallel Earth  and is big enough to dwarf Gallifrey itself when turned inside out.  It is also seen to exist in multiple timelines. The TARDIS also grants its passengers the ability to understand and speak other languages.

The TARDIS is able to tow another ship away, or chase a ship or a transmission through space and time In "Journey's End", the TARDIS is able to tow the Earth across space. TARDIS displays include a "chameleon arch", capable of  engineering an almost witness protection-style relocation by making its Time Lord another species and placing them in a new fabricated identity with new memories somewhere else in space and time

In the spin-off media, Gallifreyan Battle TARDIS’ have appeared in the comic books, novels and audio plays, which fire "time torpedoes" that freeze the target in time.

 Also if a Tardis were to leave it’s shields down and collide with another TARDIS within the vortex it would create a black hole “the size of Belgium” that would completely swallow the universe in minutes.....kinda overpowered for a BBC show lol.


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randumo24

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#29  Edited By randumo24

it's a very strange show

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Do I have to give a name?

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No doubt, but that's why I like it. It doesn't take itself too seriously but can still drop in the drama when necessary.

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randumo24

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#31  Edited By randumo24

well if were talking ancients & ori ascended then disruptions of time and space are nothing. ascended they win easy, before that i dunno.

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Do I have to give a name?

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Thing is Timelords have ascended stages too. I know nothing about what they're capable of in that form though so I haven't bought them into the thread. What kind of feats have ascended ancients got though?

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randumo24

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#33  Edited By randumo24

Powers

The Ascended plane offers many powers to its inhabitants. Ascended beings have been seen to be capable of miraculous things. Some of these powers include but aren't limited to:

Spectral Form: The ability to shape their form to appear human and communicate in that manner, but their manifestation remains intangible. Because of this, they can pass through solid objects and solid objects can pass through them. Energy weapon blasts also pass through them when they are in this state. When in this form they can also glow or appear as flames.

Tangible Form: The ability to take solid form and return to Spectral form at any time.

Unseen Presence: The ability to remain invisible and influence thoughts of those in the corporeal plane.

Deacension (w/ Knowledge retention): The ability to retake human form with some of the knowledge and power of an ascended being. However, the human mind was not meant to contain the amount of information an ascended being possesses, which would damage and mentally degrade the mind after a short period of time if too much was retained, although a small amount will cause no harm. The mind of a child can easily contain ascended knowledge for far longer then an adult. Some ancients like Merlin limited the knowledge when they deascended to just what they needed so as to not damage them in any way. Ascended beings can also place themselves in a state directly underneath ascension during their deascension to gain immense power such as healing, telekenisis, and energy blasts.

 

Nature Control: Ascended beings can control nature, such as lighting fires, levitate objects, make the wind blow, toss lightning, control electrical devices, and harness devastating energy.

Telekinesis: Ascended beings can move objects and people with their mind.

Space Flight: The ability to travel through space without the use of a Stargate. They also seem to be able to "teleport" themselves onboard orbiting ships or to other areas of a planet, sometimes they teleport in the same room to demonstrate power, but they usually use Stargates for long-distance travel.

Share Essence: Ascended beings can share their essence with humans, which is physically pleasant to the human.

Evolve: Ascended beings can advance humans and Jaffa (who were originally human) in their evolution and give them some of the powers of the ascended, or ascend them.

Energy Form: Ascended beings can manifest themselves in a bright, shape-changing, form of energy. They can also fly when in this form.

Destructive Energy Form: The ability to shape their form into destructive beams or orbs of energy that destroy anything that comes into contact with them, including space ships, regardless of their shields or strength, and even lower ascended beings.

Chaya Sar uses her ascended powers to destroy Wraith darts

Matter Materialization: They can appear solid and create solid objects, such as balls, tents, a temple, a pyramid, and a Stargate, with all of them fully working.

Sensory Manipulation: Ascended beings can select who hears and sees them in their manifestations.

Group Manifestation: Most ascended beings manifest themselves in a group. The Others typically do this as a storm cloud, while the Ori do this as a wall of fire.

Possession: The Ascended can take a human as a host with or without that person's awareness.

Telepathy: The Ascended can read the minds of people.

Resurrection/Smite/Heal: An ascended being can resurrect, completely heal, or kill any living being.

Advanced Conception: Ascended beings have the ability to impregnate a human woman with a genetically-altered, and therefore advanced, human offspring who inherits some of the powers and knowledge of the Ascended. While the knowledge this offspring possesses is no doubt vast, it is somewhat limited due to their half-human physiology.

there arent a ton of feats shown in the show because as a general rule, they arent supposed to interfere.

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Do I have to give a name?

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Well there's some things in there that would be quite usefull. But nothing really that hasn't been dealt with by The Doctor before.

Resurrection/Smite/Heal
: Sounds like it stands a good chance of stopping a timelord, as it could most likely stop regeneration. However, I see nothing in the list that would get them onto a Tardis in the first place (Remember the interior doesn't "exist" as such). 

Destructive Energy Form
: Stands a chance, but remember the Doctors Tardis (an obsolete model) survived the Big Bang without so much as a scratch.

Unseen Presence: Could maybe work using the thought influencing aspects of it, However a Timelords mind would be far harder to control than any "normal" race on Stargate and again they are faced with the issue of getting to the Timelord to begin with.

All in all they seem pretty impressive and against a Tardis with a regular crew (6 Timelords) they stand a pretty good chance. But against an "elite" like the Doctor or the Master they would be pretty common fair. Against the Timelords as a whole they would barely be recognized as a threat, and against a DW style ascended being such as Rose when she absorbed the time vortex They would most likely be erased from space and time instantly.

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randumo24

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#35  Edited By randumo24

there are millions of ascended beings though, it's not like there are just a few.

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Do I have to give a name?

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Not trying to sound like an ass, but I figured there would be. The Timelords were pretty much on top of all the ascended races in the DW universe, without even ascending themselves. And in their Imperialistic days it meant nothing to them to wipe out entire dimensions (ascneded beings included) if they thought there was the slightest chance that they could one day (even Trillions of years in the future) rival their power.

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randumo24

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#37  Edited By randumo24

honestly we dont know how powerful the highest ascended in SG is because they arent supposed to interfere in lower plains, and the longer they are around, the more they learn, the stronger they become. This girl is an example of the kind of power the ancients & ori had when their race was advancing toward ascension, but before they did.

  
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Eternalslash

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#38  Edited By Eternalslash

@randumo24: Ancients lose....

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#39  Edited By ComocYahweh

Ascended ancients are far more powerful. Even as mortals the ancients had same similar tech as Time lords. Wormholes, Time, dimensional, multiversal travel, control time with time bubbles, time loops, galaxy busting weapons. But after they ascended they became not only immortal but much more powerful, the most powerful ascended are nigh omnipotent.

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#40  Edited By Eternalslash

@ComocYahweh: lol! i cant help but laugh as to how wrong you are. First of all let me just let you know that Timelords can ascend, they dont need to ascend because they can basically do all the ascended ancients do while in mortal form. When the ancients were busy learning how to ascend and creating things like the destiny, The Timelords had already maxed out in knowledge of the universe. They have destroyed beings far far far more powerful than ascended ancients. Secondly all those things you mentioned are what the Timelord children create and play with in their schools. Like people have said putting the doctor and the master against the whole ancients will be a fairer fight, Put the whole timelords and it is a stomp you do not want to see.

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Lord_Johnathan

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#41  Edited By Lord_Johnathan

@Do I have to give a name? said:

So I've read in other forums how a single Tardis could solo the federation, and I've read here how the Ancients and ori can also beat the hell out of the federation. So who wins if they're put against each other? Both sides are at full power.I won't be getting involved in this thread as i know F*#k all about either side. But hopefully there will be some interesting replies. Thanks.

Destroying the TARDIS destroys the multiverse as per Doctor Who canon, so even if they win, they still lose as time collapses upon itself.

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Doctor!!!!!

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#42  Edited By Doctor!!!!!

Ummm..you what i'm going to say.

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hudyman

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#43  Edited By hudyman

My Tardis wins with little effort..

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Lord_Johnathan

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#44  Edited By Lord_Johnathan

Also, individual TARDIS' were casual sunbusters. Doctor Who tech is generally orders of magnitude more advanced than that of other scifi series'. Pretty much, once guarded by it's shields, the only thing that could even touch a TARDIS would be time war level tech, even flinging supernovas at it would accomplish jack and squat. And in that war, the Daleks and Time Lords were destroying entire universes, sealing off timelines from each other, rewriting the laws of reality on a mass scale, negating the existences of whole dimensions, and the Time Lords were willing and able to destroy the entire multiverse to win as the Daleks had pushed them all the way back to Gallifrey. Of course, the Doctor's TARDIS is considered outdated by Time War standards, but what it has done is nothing short of frightening. And guess what? With his outdated TARDIS and some MacGuffins, the Doctor managed to seal off both sides in the last great time war in a timelock that ended with both sides getting exploded by the moment. With the Doctor piloting, I have no doubt that the TARDIS would stomp.

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hudyman

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#45  Edited By hudyman

@Lord_Johnathan said:

Also, individual TARDIS' were casual sunbusters. Doctor Who tech is generally orders of magnitude more advanced than that of other scifi series'. Pretty much, once guarded by it's shields, the only thing that could even touch a TARDIS would be time war level tech, even flinging supernovas at it would accomplish jack and squat. And in that war, the Daleks and Time Lords were destroying entire universes, sealing off timelines from each other, rewriting the laws of reality on a mass scale, negating the existences of whole dimensions, and the Time Lords were willing and able to destroy the entire multiverse to win as the Daleks had pushed them all the way back to Gallifrey. Of course, the Doctor's TARDIS is considered outdated by Time War standards, but what it has done is nothing short of frightening. And guess what? With his outdated TARDIS and some MacGuffins, the Doctor managed to seal off both sides in the last great time war in a timelock that ended with both sides getting exploded by the moment. With the Doctor piloting, I have no doubt that the TARDIS would stomp.

couldnt have said it better myself.

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#46  Edited By Lord_Johnathan

@hudyman said:

@Lord_Johnathan said:

Also, individual TARDIS' were casual sunbusters. Doctor Who tech is generally orders of magnitude more advanced than that of other scifi series'. Pretty much, once guarded by it's shields, the only thing that could even touch a TARDIS would be time war level tech, even flinging supernovas at it would accomplish jack and squat. And in that war, the Daleks and Time Lords were destroying entire universes, sealing off timelines from each other, rewriting the laws of reality on a mass scale, negating the existences of whole dimensions, and the Time Lords were willing and able to destroy the entire multiverse to win as the Daleks had pushed them all the way back to Gallifrey. Of course, the Doctor's TARDIS is considered outdated by Time War standards, but what it has done is nothing short of frightening. And guess what? With his outdated TARDIS and some MacGuffins, the Doctor managed to seal off both sides in the last great time war in a timelock that ended with both sides getting exploded by the moment. With the Doctor piloting, I have no doubt that the TARDIS would stomp.

couldnt have said it better myself.

Yeah, you want a civilization that's a match for the Time War era Time Lords and Daleks, you're going to need stuff from the Xeelee sequence. And in that universe they have starfighter weapons that can cut galaxies apart, pistols that can blow up stars, tactical time travel where they find out where you're going to be at one point, then travel back and lay a black hole where you will be, and fling entire galaxies as projectile weapons. And even then, I'd still say the Time War era civs would win out over the Xeelee and the Photino birds, as they're much better at time travel.

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hudyman

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#47  Edited By hudyman

@Lord_Johnathan: So much faith in my race? Great!

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Lord_Johnathan

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#48  Edited By Lord_Johnathan

@hudyman said:

@Lord_Johnathan: So much faith in my race? Great!

When you have things like that Armageddon gem that can destroy universes and the apocalypse element that can do the same being flung around in a war, you're kind of on a league that 99.99% of sci-fi can't even hope to touch.

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hudyman

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#49  Edited By hudyman

@Lord_Johnathan: And the best creation of all time... The Hand Of Omega.......

Also jammy dodgers- even though its an earth creation

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ComocYahweh

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#50  Edited By ComocYahweh

@Eternalslash said:

@ComocYahweh: lol! i cant help but laugh as to how wrong you are. First of all let me just let you know that Timelords can ascend, they dont need to ascend because they can basically do all the ascended ancients do while in mortal form. When the ancients were busy learning how to ascend and creating things like the destiny, The Timelords had already maxed out in knowledge of the universe. They have destroyed beings far far far more powerful than ascended ancients. Secondly all those things you mentioned are what the Timelord children create and play with in their schools. Like people have said putting the doctor and the master against the whole ancients will be a fairer fight, Put the whole timelords and it is a stomp you do not want to see.

Show me proof of what you are saying.