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#1 Posted by Batman15 (192 posts) - - Show Bio

Now anakin never became darth vader he stayed a jedi and reached his full potential as did Luke who wins?

#2 Posted by The Stegman (25988 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin would win.

#3 Posted by Batman15 (192 posts) - - Show Bio

Why

#4 Edited by KnightRise (4762 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman said:

Anakin would win.

You think he had the potential to surpass NJO Grandmaster Luke?

#5 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

So... fan fiction Anakin vs a guy with established feats? Gotcha.

*leaves thread*

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#6 Posted by The Stegman (25988 posts) - - Show Bio
@KnightRise said:

@The Stegman said:

Anakin would win.

You think he had the potential to surpass NJO Grandmaster Luke?

I don't read the Expanded Universe, it's too daunting of a chore >.< I was speaking about Anakin as seen in Episode III vs Luke as seen in ROTJ. 
#7 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Are there any SW books/comics/etc that center around what would have happened had -insert specific event- not happened, or happened a different way?

#8 Posted by NeonGameWave (9024 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin would win due to having more experience.

#9 Posted by Bane_of_sith (2796 posts) - - Show Bio

So...someone with no imagination on a site based on hypothetical battles ..gotta love comicvine snobs....anyway Luke would still win..I believe the son usually surpasses the father,it's part of evolution

#10 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

@Xanni15 said:

@JediXMan: Are there any SW books/comics/etc that center around what would have happened had -insert specific event- not happened, or happened a different way?

Not this specific event, no. But there are others. See: Infinities, which shows alternate tellings of the movies.

@NeonGameWave said:

Anakin would win due to having more experience.

... in what way does he have any more experience?

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#11 Posted by e3zombie (720 posts) - - Show Bio

@NeonGameWave said:

Anakin would win due to having more experience.

I love Neon, always thinking what im thinking. Makes me have to type less.

#12 Posted by NeonGameWave (9024 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: He is more trained and has fought a great deal of tough opponents.

#13 Posted by KnightRise (4762 posts) - - Show Bio

@e3zombie said:

@NeonGameWave said:

Anakin would win due to having more experience.

I love Neon, always thinking what im thinking. Makes me have to type less.

I disagree, but I'll let JediXman argue. I 'd end up embarassing myself somehow lol

#14 Posted by rpottage (899 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin if he reached full potential?

Anakin stomps; there's a reason he's called the chosen one, and it's because even when he's mentally unable to reach full potential, is unable to use certain techniques/powers due to his physical health, and had half his body utterly destroyed; he still destroyes both the Sith and Jedi, both when they were at the height of their power.

#15 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

@NeonGameWave said:

@JediXMan: He is more trained and has fought a great deal of tough opponents.

... Luke has trained longer and fought more difficult opponents (Palpatine, Caedus, Lumiya, Vader himself. Shall I go on?). I have no idea where you're getting this idea from. Luke has exceedingly better feats, in both lightsaber combat and Force abilities. Anything regarding what Anakin could have been is nothing more than fan fiction.

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#16 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see how Anakin wouldn't have more Experience. He was trained since he was a little boy. Luke only had about 5 years or so under his belt by the time of Return of the Jedi.

If we are not including any EU stuff than Anakin whoops.

By OP standards give me Luke.

#17 Edited by NeonGameWave (9024 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Good point. But Anakin has more training as he has trained longer in regards to age, sheer skill and mastering of the Force, also he is a much more mature fighter. Also due to the conditions of the OP, Anakin has reached his full potential that means he would technically have more experience and understanding of the force which also means he wouldn`t have suffered his later injuries and Anakin is very gifted when it comes to what he can do with his abilities as well as skills. What makes Luke greater than Anakin? In what real aspects of the outclassing definity would he be classified better or greater within the tier and comparative analysis of hierarchy in regards to a Jedi?

#18 Posted by KingAres109 (1328 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke stomps!!Anyone thats able to defeat Sidous in a lightsaber duel I'll ride with them.

#19 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

@NeonGameWave:

Luke may have less training, but he equaled and possibly even surpassed his father by the end of VI only a year after meeting Yoda. Just 5 years after VI, he was toppling AT-ATs without a care. So essentially, Luke with 1-4 years of training > / = Anakin with thirteen. That's just within the movies; Luke has decades of experience under his belt, including fighting a war that was far worse than the Clone Wars.

If we're just going by Luke in VI vs Anakin in III, a case can be made either way. If this is hypothetical Anakin vs full power Luke, Luke already has better feats that go leaps and bounds beyond him. He toppled and rebuilt castles, manipulated small black holes, fought faster than any Jedi who came before him, fought Palpatine and Caedus, the two most powerful Sith of all time. What legitimate feats, beyond hyperbolic fan fiction, does full potential Anakin even have?

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#20 Posted by Inphase (336 posts) - - Show Bio

Are you kidding me? This would be a stomp for Anakin. As much as I like Luke, and don't get me wrong, he is really powerful. Anakin at full power without the suit would be like a silverback gorilla vs a kitten in an enclosed room!

#21 Posted by KingAres109 (1328 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Thank you..I love when you come in these SW threads.You tear it up.Lol.....

#22 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

@Inphase:

And full potential Anakin can do... what?

I'd love a list of feats right now.

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#23 Edited by NeonGameWave (9024 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@NeonGameWave:

Luke may have less training, but he equaled and possibly even surpassed his father by the end of VI only a year after meeting Yoda. Just 5 years after VI, he was toppling AT-ATs without a care. So essentially, Luke with 1-4 years of training > / = Anakin with thirteen. That's just within the movies; Luke has decades of experience under his belt, including fighting a war that was far worse than the Clone Wars.

If we're just going by Luke in VI vs Anakin in III, a case can be made either way. If this is hypothetical Anakin vs full power Luke, Luke already has better feats that go leaps and bounds beyond him. He toppled and rebuilt castles, manipulated small black holes, fought faster than any Jedi who came before him, fought Palpatine and Caedus, the two most powerful Sith of all time. What legitimate feats, beyond hyperbolic fan fiction, does full potential Anakin even have?

Possibly but not actually, Anakin has more training in regards to more aspects that include sheer skill, combat ability and understanding of the force also within this scenario, Anakin has reached his full potential meaning his experience>Luke`s experience, also Anakin has fought many powerful individuals as well such as Count Dooku, Obi-wan Kenobi, and Yoda considers him to being a top, gifted and exceptional Jedi that is within the movies alone if you were to include Clone Wars and etc it would just show how much a truly capable Jedi he is. Now imagine if he were to not become Darth Vader and remain as a Jedi honing his skills, how powerful will he truly be?

You brought up some really good points but why can`t a fully trained and full powered Anakin do those things or is so less capable of doing those things? Considering the fact that he has a lot of experience, is a very skilled and gifted Jedi also within the basis of reality having become Darth Vader and being corrupted hasn`t mastered his abilities as he had failed to know what made him a true Jedi. His powers and understanding of the Force exceeds that of Luke`s in my opinion.

#24 Posted by rpottage (899 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@Inphase:

And full potential Anakin can do... what?

I'd love a list of feats right now.

You're asking for feats of an unwritten hypothetical version of a character? Good luck with that.

#25 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

@NeonGameWave said:

Possibly but not actually, Anakin has more training in regards to more aspects that include sheer skill, combat ability and understanding of the force also within this scenario Anakin has reached his full potential meaning his experience>Luke`s, also Anakin has fought many powerful foes as well such as Count Dooku, Obi-wan Kenobi and Yoda considers him to being a top, gifted and exceptional Jedi that is within the movies alone if you were to include Clone Wars and etc it would just show much a truly capable Jedi he is. Now imagine if were to not become Darth Vader and remain as a Jedi honing his skills, how powerful will he truly be?

You brought up some really good points but why can`t a fully trained and full powered Anakin do those things or is so less capable of doing those things? Considering the fact that he has a lot of experience, is a very skilled and gifted Jedi also within the basis of reality having become Darth Vader and being corrupted hasn`t mastered his abilities as he had failed to know what made him a true Jedi. His powers and understanding of the Force exceeds that of Luke`s in my opinion.

Not really. Luke knows more Force abilities than Anakin does and utilizes more forms of Lightsaber combat. Sheer feats alone show that Luke knows more than Anakin, so again I don't see where you think Anakin's experience grants him a win in any regards. By the time Luke was a Grandmaster, he was more powerful than Yoda and more skilled than Yoda. Basically, that means Luke with 25+ years of experience > Yoda with 900. If experience were really a factor, shouldn't Yoda be more powerful than Luke? Than Palpatine? Because he's not more powerful than either of them. Also, you can't say Yoda wasn't in his prime; as far as we know, he was in his prime during the Clone Wars. There's no proof that he was more powerful before becoming the grandmaster (which is silly if you think of it in those terms). It's not the years of experience, but the product that comes from that experience is what matters. Once more: Luke with only 4 years of experience - one year after meeting Yoda - was equal to, or even more powerful than Anakin was during the Clone Wars when he had 10-13 years under his belt. If anything can be taken away from this, it means that Luke learns far faster than Anakin, or any Jedi, ever did. Just having a few more years doesn't matter. At all.

Why can he? This is a series of "What Ifs?" with no concrete proof. Full power Anakin is fan fiction. He has no feats. You can just as easily say he can kick moons around like soccer balls as easily as I can say he can't. It's all made up. There's nothing to say that he can do anything, making this a pointless debate. If we want to bring fan fiction in, yes, Anakin can beat Luke. But as things stand, no, he cannot.

We can only deal with what we know. What we know is that Luke is the most powerful character in Star Wars. We have no proof that "full power" Anakin can do anything at all, or if he would just be a more capable Vader.

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#26 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

@rpottage said:

@JediXMan said:

@Inphase:

And full potential Anakin can do... what?

I'd love a list of feats right now.

You're asking for feats of an unwritten hypothetical version of a character? Good luck with that.

I realize. I want to see what his answer is.

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#27 Posted by Inphase (336 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Yes, full potential Anakin has no feats, because he doesn't exist, I know this. But his power is implied. He is the chosen one, the Jesus of the Star Wars world. The current versions we have of Anakin would of course lose to the post RotJ Luke.

#28 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

@Inphase said:

@JediXMan: Yes, full potential Anakin has no feats, because he doesn't exist, I know this. But his power is implied. He is the chosen one, the Jesus of the Star Wars world. The current versions we have of Anakin would of course lose to the post RotJ Luke.

And how is his power implied? All that's said is that he'll bring balance to the Force by killing the Sith - which is accomplished when he beat Palpatine. Essentially, it's not about power, but about the act. So essentially, it could simply be a matter that Anakin is the only one who could have beat Palpatine, at that moment, because he was the Chosen One. No amp, no implied boost in power - just the Neo treatment where he was the only one who could beat a specific person at a specific time.

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#29 Posted by Inphase (336 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Well, first, he temporarily brought balance, if you count EU. But thats not the point. His potential is also shown throughout The Clone Wars. There is a particular episode of the series where Anakin, Obi Wan, and Ashoka travel inside some sort of giant lexicon, I cant recall much from the episode or its name, but a lot of potential was shown there.

#30 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

@Inphase said:

@JediXMan: Well, first, he temporarily brought balance, if you count EU. But thats not the point. His potential is also shown throughout The Clone Wars. There is a particular episode of the series where Anakin, Obi Wan, and Ashoka travel inside some sort of giant lexicon, I cant recall much from the episode or its name, but a lot of potential was shown there.

He essentially did. He stopped the Banite Sith Empire, and that's the beginning and the end of the prophecy. So he did what he was supposed to do. The only thing that happened is that Palpatine survived, but his Empire was almost completely gone. It was a pale shadow of its former glory.

So, yes, he did bring balance to the Force. What happened with the One Sith is because of the Galactic Alliance's screw ups.

I have not seen it, but from what I understand, it was all most metaphorical situations; essentially, a vision for him. Nothing about the Ones of Mortis refute me.

So, once more: there's nothing to say he'd be a near-omnipotent Jedi if he stayed with the light.

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#31 Edited by NeonGameWave (9024 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@NeonGameWave said:

Possibly but not actually, Anakin has more training in regards to more aspects that include sheer skill, combat ability and understanding of the force also within this scenario Anakin has reached his full potential meaning his experience>Luke`s, also Anakin has fought many powerful foes as well such as Count Dooku, Obi-wan Kenobi and Yoda considers him to being a top, gifted and exceptional Jedi that is within the movies alone if you were to include Clone Wars and etc it would just show much a truly capable Jedi he is. Now imagine if were to not become Darth Vader and remain as a Jedi honing his skills, how powerful will he truly be?

You brought up some really good points but why can`t a fully trained and full powered Anakin do those things or is so less capable of doing those things? Considering the fact that he has a lot of experience, is a very skilled and gifted Jedi also within the basis of reality having become Darth Vader and being corrupted hasn`t mastered his abilities as he had failed to know what made him a true Jedi. His powers and understanding of the Force exceeds that of Luke`s in my opinion.

Not really. Luke knows more Force abilities than Anakin does and utilizes more forms of Lightsaber combat. Sheer feats alone show that Luke knows more than Anakin, so again I don't see where you think Anakin's experience grants him a win in any regards. By the time Luke was a Grandmaster, he was more powerful than Yoda and more skilled than Yoda. Basically, that means Luke with 25+ years of experience > Yoda with 900. If experience were really a factor, shouldn't Yoda be more powerful than Luke? Than Palpatine? Because he's not more powerful than either of them. Also, you can't say Yoda wasn't in his prime; as far as we know, he was in his prime during the Clone Wars. There's no proof that he was more powerful before becoming the grandmaster (which is silly if you think of it in those terms). It's not the years of experience, but the product that comes from that experience is what matters. Once more: Luke with only 4 years of experience - one year after meeting Yoda - was equal to, or even more powerful than Anakin was during the Clone Wars when he had 10-13 years under his belt. If anything can be taken away from this, it means that Luke learns far faster than Anakin, or any Jedi, ever did. Just having a few more years doesn't matter. At all.

Why can he? This is a series of "What Ifs?" with no concrete proof. Full power Anakin is fan fiction. He has no feats. You can just as easily say he can kick moons around like soccer balls as easily as I can say he can't. It's all made up. There's nothing to say that he can do anything, making this a pointless debate. If we want to bring fan fiction in, yes, Anakin can beat Luke. But as things stand, no, he cannot.

We can only deal with what we know. What we know is that Luke is the most powerful character in Star Wars. We have no proof that "full power" Anakin can do anything at all, or if he would just be a more capable Vader.

That`s true but Anakin understands the force a lot more, and his limitations were based on the fact that he never truly mastered his abilities and also due to his critical injuries as well as health. Luke may have more experience within the field of accumulation of experience but I`m pretty sure if Anakin trained and honed his skills during the time when he became Darth Vader which he would have added amounts of experience, and the value from that training would be an important factor. Anakin would have surpassed Yoda with a adding of 3-4 years to his already impressive 10-13 years also if Luke is the faster learner, I believe Anakin is the faster thinker and is more focused when it comes to combat, the reason why experience matters is because within this scenario as conditions weren`t exactly specified within the OP the question and matters regarding canon as well as non canon should be taken into account, which versions are being used? Where does it take place? And what are the circumstances regarding morals, bloodlust and prep? Its not just a matter of comparison but a matter in understanding the nature as well as circumstances of a battle. I`m not really familiar with the comics, novels and central games but what is canon and non canon? Anakin most of the time is blinded by rage and is very unfocused in regards to his later fights as he became Darth Vader but if he were to be more focus and less rageful he would successfully become one of the greatest if not greatest Jedi, Luke had the opportunity as his father didn`t and that is another important factor.

The reason why I ask and wonder is because unlike Luke, Anakin did not have the same opportunity and time to become stronger or greater in all aspects in regards to his abilities. It also depends on the specificity of the versions as well as conditions, so my points still stand. Actually there is, based on what he`s done, accomplished and is proven to do is something but furthering that fact is the circumstance as well as condition in regards to being put to the test within battle. It comes down to combat ability, endurance, skill and variety. But encompassing those factors are conditions within a battle that interlink all factors in which points could be made logically rather than theoretically and associatively.

I agree but we must also deal with what we are given and factor in what is possible due to the conditions as well as limited specifications, this is what we have in regards to formulating as well as crafting an overall basic debate without leaning towards the methods of describing points with theory as well as speculation and non canon imagination. Actually we do know to a degree, due to his limitations and inconveniences as Darth Vader, being at full strength and having more added years of experience would be help a great deal, also through those factors Anakin would become more wiser, and would learn more abilities in regards to the Force.

#32 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@NeonGameWave:

Luke may have less training, but he equaled and possibly even surpassed his father by the end of VI only a year after meeting Yoda. Just 5 years after VI, he was toppling AT-ATs without a care. So essentially, Luke with 1-4 years of training > / = Anakin with thirteen. That's just within the movies; Luke has decades of experience under his belt, including fighting a war that was far worse than the Clone Wars.

If we're just going by Luke in VI vs Anakin in III, a case can be made either way. If this is hypothetical Anakin vs full power Luke, Luke already has better feats that go leaps and bounds beyond him. He toppled and rebuilt castles, manipulated small black holes, fought faster than any Jedi who came before him, fought Palpatine and Caedus, the two most powerful Sith of all time. What legitimate feats, beyond hyperbolic fan fiction, does full potential Anakin even have?

Didn't know that. Awesome.

#33 Posted by Inphase (336 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: I never said he would be near omnipotent. I'm saying that he would, at his full potential, be able to defeat Luke, yes the EU Luke. Anakin would have been one of the most powerful Jedi (or sith) of all time if he weren't so arrogant, he was already one of the most powerful Jedi during the Clone Wars.

#34 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

@Inphase said:

@JediXMan: I never said he would be near omnipotent. I'm saying that he would, at his full potential, be able to defeat Luke, yes the EU Luke. Anakin would have been one of the most powerful Jedi (or sith) of all time if he weren't so arrogant, he was already one of the most powerful Jedi during the Clone Wars.

Yet you've given me no proof to reinforce this sentiment.

@NeonGameWave said:

That`s true but Anakin understands the force a lot more, and his limitations were based on the fact that he never truly mastered his abilities and also due to his critical injuries as well as health. Luke may have more experience within the field of accumulation of experience but I`m pretty sure if Anakin trained and honed his skills during the time when he became Darth Vader which he would have added amounts of experience, and the value from that training would be an important factor. Anakin would have surpassed Yoda with a adding of 3-4 years to his already impressive 10-13 years also if Luke is the faster learner, I believe Anakin is the faster thinker and is more focused when it comes to combat, the reason why experience matters is because within this scenario as conditions weren`t exactly specified within the OP the question and matters regarding canon as well as non canon should be taken into account, which versions are being used? Where does it take place? And what are the circumstances regarding morals, bloodlust and prep? Its not just a matter of comparison but a matter in understanding the nature as well as circumstances of a battle. I`m not really familiar with the comics, novels and central games but what is canon and non canon? Anakin most of the time is blinded by rage and is very unfocused in regards to his later fights as he became Darth Vader but if he were to be more focus and less rageful he would successfully become one of the greatest if not greatest Jedi, Luke had the opportunity as his father didn`t and that is another important factor.

None of this is true. Luke was more mature when he was learning the Force. He knows more techniques and mastered those techniques before even becoming the Grandmaster. Also, no, Luke is a far more focused fighter than Anakin. He is a calm, calculated fighter. He has less formal training, but he knows far more than Anakin does and even more than Yoda. He does not understand the Force more; Luke does. Luke studied intently before and after Jedi. It's worth mentioning that Luke also lost a hand, so those limitations based on physical injuries prior to becoming Vader are a poor comparison.

Vader was not controlled by his emotions. People seem to think that Anakin is far weaker as Vader; this is not the case. He's simply slower and more susceptible to things like Force Lightning. But as Vader, he gained a better understanding of the Force and is arguably a better duelist. He focused less on speed and less on raw power. He also has better TK feats as Vader than as Anakin.

@NeonGameWave said:

The reason why I ask and wonder is because unlike Luke, Anakin did not have the same opportunity and time to become stronger or greater in all aspects in regards to his abilities. It also depends on the specificity of the versions as well as conditions, so my points still stand. Actually there is, based on what he`s done, accomplished and is proven to do is something but furthering that fact is the circumstance as well as condition in regards to being put to the test within battle. It comes down to combat ability, endurance, skill and variety. But encompassing those factors are conditions within a battle that interlink all factors in which points could be made logically rather than theoretically and associatively.

But that's the thing: it's all theoretical. Consider this: Anakin had masters and a Jedi archive with which to gain knowledge during his thirteen years. Luke did not have access to any masters aside from Yoda and Obi-Wan, and he learned a lot more after them on his own with the use of holocrons he found. He had much more of a thirst for knowledge. That's what separates them: he wanted knowledge, Anakin wanted power. Luke got it, Anakin didn't. In thirteen years, Anakin was able to beat Dooku. In nine years, he was fighting Palpatine; not beating, but fighting, and at least holding his own against attacks that Anakin never could have. This is also before he found the bulk of Jedi who would become part of his new Order and before rediscovering Ossus.

@NeonGameWave said:

I agree but we must also deal with what we are given and factor in what is possible due to the conditions as well as limited specifications, this is what we have in regards to formulating as well as crafting an overall basic debate without leaning towards the methods of describing points with theory as well as speculation and non canon imagination. Actually we do know to a degree, due to his limitations and inconveniences as Darth Vader, being at full strength and having more added years of experience would be help a great deal, also through those factors Anakin would become more wiser, and would learn more abilities in regards to the Force.

The only difference between Vader and Anakin, as I stated above, is that Vader is slower and could not use Force lightning. But again, Vader compensated: he was physically stronger than Anakin and more durable. He has better feats in other areas of the Force than he did pre-Vader.

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#35 Edited by NeonGameWave (9024 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Anakin is more mature and serious in regards to combat, Anakin becomes very unfocused because he is quick to anger and can be arrogant at times but has demonstrated that he is calm and acknowledgeable within a certain situation. Anakin knows the concept of the Force more as he was Chosen and Luke only knows in regards to actual abilities, I think Anakin is more disciplined and hard edged due to his experiences. Also like I asked before is any of the books, comics and games canon in regards to Luke?

That`s true but in regards to this scenario Anakin is fully trained and at full power so he isn`t exactly far behind or an inferior. Anakin would eventually surpass both his masters and superiors if he were to reach full potential its not simply based on the length of learning and experience as well as how fast either is accumulated but rather the basis of the fight and how it is applied. He wasn`t controlled by his emotions but it was what led him to become Vader in the first place and although wearing a suit has many health problems as well as flaws, he pursues justice in his eyes however is hold back by his failures and negative experiences, Anakin becoming a much better Jedi would make him>Darth Vader as he would understand the true meaning of the Force and wouldn`t lose his undiscovered as well as untapped potential.

When in the suit yes but Anakin being fully trained and at full power would add benefits or advantages of skill, experience, combat ability and etc. Vader is stronger as well as more durable but under certain conditions isn`t necessarily superior as Anakin did not even reach his true potential but was only an empty shell of his former self who embraced the dark side. Also what matters is what happens during the course of the fight in which conditions and circumstances should be considered not just what was done or accomplished.

#36 Posted by Inphase (336 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan:

The only proof I can give is his midichlorian count, he had the highest number in SW history. Midichlorians essentially show ones attunement to the force. The higher your count, the more attuned to the force you were, or you could be. Anakin didn't reach his full attunement, and the suit didn't help. Your asking me to give you proof of something that doesn't exist. Its not fact, but I think it would be highly likely that Anakin would have been one of the most powerful jedi of all time if he were to defeat Kenobi that day on Mustafar.

#37 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

@NeonGameWave said:

@JediXMan: Anakin is more mature and serious in regards to combat, Anakin becomes very unfocused because he is very quick to anger and can be arrogant at times but has demonstrated that he is calm and can be acknowledgeable within a certain situation. Anakin knows the concept of the Force more as he was Chosen and Luke only knows in regards to actual abilities, I think Anakin is more disciplined and hard edged due to his experiences. Also like I asked before is any of the books, comics and games canon in regards to Luke?

How can you say that he's more mature than Luke? In what way? Anakin was always cocky and arrogant. Luke grew over the course of the OT and overcame any anger he had. He does not give way to anger after VI (mostly) and is extremely calm. He sliced his way through armies of Yuuzhan Vong with such speed that it looked like he had 10-20 lightsabers with a calm look on his face.

He can be calm; he can be knowledgeable. Luke is calm and he is knowledgeable. Just because he's the Chosen One doesn't make him automatically wise, as evident by the fact that he so easily fell. Given the fact that Luke was also tempted and did not fall proves his wisdom. What you're saying makes no sense.

90% of the comics / novels / games are canon. There are a select few that are explicitly non-canon.

I must ask: since you acknowledge that you do not know much about the EU, how can you accurately debate a topic where the EU is being taken into consideration? Please keep in mind that, by default, all Star Wars topics take the EU into consideration, whether it's post- or pre-Jedi, it doesn't matter.

@NeonGameWave said:

That`s true but in regards to this scenario Anakin is fully trained and at full power so he isn`t exactly far behind or an inferior. Anakin would eventually surpass both his masters and superiors if he were to reach full potential its not simply based on the length of learning and experience as well as fast how fast either is accumulated but rather the basis of the fight and how it is applied. He wasn`t controlled by his emotions but it was what led him to become Vader in the first place and although wearing a suit has many health problems as well as flaws, he pursues justice in his eyes however is hold back by his failures and negative experiences, Anakin becoming a much better Jedi would make him>Darth Vader as he would understand the true meaning of the Force and wouldn`t lose his undiscovered as well as untapped potential.

How do you know he's fully trained? The OP never said he learned, just that he was able to access his full power. It's not the same thing. Jacen Solo wasn't trained in "Oneness" but he was able to use it when he fought the Vong.

Also, you failed to acknowledge my point that being the Chosen One has nothing to do with power or wisdow. It's just his place in the Force. It's the reason he was able to defeat Palpatine in Jedi. In theory, it means he's just capable of beating Palpatine because that is his role. It does not, in any way, mean he's more powerful than Palpatine. It just means that he and Palpatine are bound by fate, with no power in the universe being capable of stopping it.

@NeonGameWave said:

When in the suit yes but Anakin being fully trained and at full power would add benefits or advantages of skill, experience, combat ability and etc. Vader is stronger as well as more durable but under certain conditions isn`t necessarily superior as Anakin did not even reach his true potential but was only an empty shell of his former self who embraced the dark side. Also what matters is what happens during the course of the fight in which conditions and circumstances should be considered not just what was done or accomplished.

But he was trained as Vader, so that is a sign as to what training can do for him. So now it's Anakin with 36 years, by the time of Jedi, against Luke with 4 years. So again, it goes to show that Luke learns faster and better.

Once more: True Potential is never explained. By all evidence, my explanation for the Chosen One is more accurate than a random power boost.

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#38 Edited by NeonGameWave (9024 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan:

I agree but Anakin is more mature in regards to discipline and attitude as he is very serious when the time calls for it. He`s just very arrogant and blinded by rage as he lets his emotions take control so imagine if he were to train.

Thanks and point taken.

The OP states that he never became Darth Vader as he remained and stayed with the Jedi in which he reaches his full potential as does Luke which means he is trained within this scenario, which is my point.

I`m not ignoring your point but my point is that being destined as the Chosen One shows how special and gifted Anakin is, that`s my point, and he never got the real chance to live up to that reputation or potential. I think you are forgetting about my point in regards to this being a fight within a scenario its not about who is the better and more accomplished Jedi but its about a battle between two Jedi.

As Vader but not exactly as Anakin in his prime or upcoming prime. Yes but those years are not worthless in regards to Anakin and imagine him following the right path from the beginning.

Good point but within this scenario it matters, we must work with what is given and we must use what is present to help define what is possible.

#39 Posted by Silver2467 (16387 posts) - - Show Bio

I think JediX has suffered enough of this tripe.

Yes, EU sources are canon.

Leland Chee, the Keeper of the Holocron for Star Wars continuity, is the one who developed this system. He has personally attested to its validity and described it in his own blogs.

The database does indeed have a canon field for each individual entry and for sources, though the canon level of the entry would overide the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry. When determining canon levels for individual entries, anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. A new level we recently added is "T" canon, comprising of the theatrical release of The Clone Wars and the television series, in addition to the planned live-action television series. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else from the EU. There is a secondary "S" continuity classification used for older published materials created when there was less attention to making everything in the EU fit with everything else in the EU. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon entry that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction. Any contradictions that arise are dealt with on a case-by-case basis.



If there is any doubt that EU continuity is recognized as canon, those doubts should be summarily halted. George Lucas explained in the introduction to the novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye that he allowed for expounding on his works because he sees the potential for storytelling. Lucas himself has also been involved in the production of the novelizations of his movies, which ted to be released before the film itself. As well, Lucas has borrowed characters, locations, and events from the EU and used them in his movies (Coruscant, Quinlan Vos, etc.).

It was't long after I began writing Star Wars that I realized the story was more than a single film could hold. As the sage of Luke Skywalker and Jedi Knights unfolded, I began to see it as a tale that could take at least nine films to tell—three trilogies—and I realized, in making my way through the back story and after story, that I was really setting out to write the middle story.

After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story—however many films it took to tell—was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not the stories that I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imaginations of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga. This legacy began with Splinter of the Mind's Eye, published less than a year after the release ofStar Wars. Written by Alan Dean Foster, a well-known and talented science-fiction author, Splinter was promoted as a "further adventure" of Luke Skywalker. It hit the bookstores just as I was preparing to write my own "further adventure" of Luke, in the form of a script entitled The Empire Strikes Back.

It seems only fitting, after all these years, that Splinter would be republished as I prepare once again to write another further adventure set a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

--Taken from Splinter of the Mind's Eye


Further elaboration on Star Wars canonicity has been presented, as in Star Wars Galaxy #6, where a brief article describes the purpose of the Infinities logo and states that all stories without the Infinities logo are canon.

And why are people acting like Anakin's Force potential vastly exceeds Luke's? Lucas himself stated that Luke's Force potential equals or at least rivals Anakin's by saying that Luke could have become what Anakin would have been.

He's not Satan, he just goes down to the corner and gets Satan's cigarettes.
You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting of his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

--Taken from Rolling Stone #975

Vader even mused the possibility that Luke's potential surpasses the Emperor's and his own and may equal Anakin's.

Vader considered his upcoming meeting with Luke. Since last they'd met, the boy had had time to come to terms with what he'd been told. On some level, he must know the truth, that Vader was his father. Of course, that had been in another lifetime, when Vader had still been Anakin Skywalker, but the fact of it remained.
He would turn him. He knew he could, because he had felt the dark side rise in Luke, had felt the power of his anger. The boy had loosed it once; he could be made to free it again. Each repetition became easier. The dark side was a path that grew wider and deeper each time you trod upon it. Soon it would be no effort at all for Luke to allow the dark side to rule.
And the Emperor was right. Luke had much power in him. It was raw, unchanneled and untrained, but it was vast. His potential was larger than the Emperor's, larger than Vader's.

The Force was powerful; Vader thought the dark side even more so, but he had never been able to use it to heal his badly burned body to the extent that he wished. That he was alive at all was something of a miracle, but he had somehow failed to master the energies needed for complete regeneration. He believed it was possible; that with sufficient meditation and training, he would someday be able to rebuild himself into the man he once had been. Physically, at least.
He would never go back to what he had been mentally. Weak, foolish, idealistic. Anakin had been much like Luke Skywalker was now. Mere...potential. Yes, the Force was strong in Luke, perhaps stronger than it had been in Anakin. But the boy needed to embrace the dark side, to learn where the real power was, to achieve his true promise. If he did not, the Emperor would destroy Luke. Vader did not want that.

--Taken from Shadows of the Empire

The man beneath the fearsome armor has undergone profound change. After the battle of Yavin, Vader was obsessed with capturing the pilot who destroyed the Death Star. At last, he learned the truth: the pilot's name was Skywalker, a name almost forgotten by Darth Vader. Now Vader knew he had a son—a son strong in the Force, a son who might one day challenge the might of the Emperor himself.

--Taken from Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook

Anakin's Force potential does not far transcend Luke's, if it transcends his at all. And as JXM pointed out, this is a fan-fic battle. This is speculation Anakin vs canon Luke. There is no way to determine this.
#40 Posted by JediXMan (31284 posts) - - Show Bio

@NeonGameWave said:

@JediXMan:

I agree but Anakin is more mature in regards to discipline and attitude as he is very serious when the time calls for it. He`s just very arrogant and blinded by rage as he lets his emotions take control so imagine if were to train.

Thanks and point taken.

But, by your own admission, you've never seen EU Luke; how can you say that with such certainty? I'm not trying to be arrogant, but I have to bring this up.

Let me just say this: I have read / watched / played a lot of Star Wars material, and Luke is significantly more mature and more disciplined than Anakin is. Consistently. Luke rebuilt an entire Jedi Order from the ashes, fought a war that was significantly more deadly than the Clone Wars, was involved in politics, and raised a son. He had a lot more responsibility on his shoulders and he still went on. He has a lot more perseverance, willpower, mental fortitude, and maturity.

@NeonGameWave said:

I`m not ignoring your point but my point is that being destined as the Chosen One shows how special and gifted Anakin is, that`s my point, and he never got the real chance to live up to that reputation or potential. I think you are forgetting about my point about this being a fight within a scenario its not about who is the better and more accomplished Jedi but its about a battle between two Jedi.

As Vader but not exactly as Anakin in his prime or upcoming prime. Yes but those years are not worthless in regards to Anakin and imagine him following the right path from the beginning.

Yes but within this scenario it matters, that is what is given and we must use what is present to help define what is possible.

And my point is that being the Chosen One is about, essentially, fulfilling a specific task. It does not mean he's more powerful after fulfilling his potential. My point is this: killing Palpatine is the fulfillment of the prophecy, and that's all it ever was.

That's my point: being the Chosen One is a title. It does not mean that he would have been more powerful than Luke. If anything, Luke became what his father could never be. It could be argued that Luke has the power that Anakin could have had, which would mean stalemate. But there's no evidence - absolutely none - that he would exceed Luke.

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#41 Posted by NeonGameWave (9024 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan:

Based on what I know of both characters that is what I believe in regards to maturity.

I understand, but my point is that Anakin is gifted and Chosen for a reason its not without reason that it`s validity becomes certain or has meaning.

I could see the fight ending as a stalemate but as I said before there needs to be more specifications for the conditions, however I`m leaning towards Anakin although a stalemate is very likely.

#42 Posted by Mr_Hudson (300 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sorry but it's pretty clear Luke would win. There's no evidence that Anakin would exceed Luke and plenty of evidence that Luke surpassed even his father's potential.