Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Sidious

Dark side Anakin from episode 3 against Darth Sidious from episode 3.

Anakin believes that only he can rule the galaxy, and decides to confront The Emperor. Who takes it? Despite Anakin's intense skill, I believe Palpatine may have the advantage in terms of power. Though Anakin IS the choosen one, so his force potential may give him a better chance.

Fight takes place where he fought Yoda.

I have wanted to discuss this with @JediXMan for a while.

This essentially depends on whether or not the will of the Force bears any precedence. Palpatine's deliberations purposely defied the Force's natural state (between his various rituals to imbalance it, corrupting the Republic, corrupting the Jedi, demeaning life, etc.), which is why the Force was inclined to restore its natural state by having him eliminated. Under those conditions, Anakin was supposed to kill him, being the Force's Chosen One. To my knowledge, it makes no difference how Anakin kills him; all that matters is that he does kill him, which will cause the Empire to dissipate as it can't function without the Emperor's dark side applications, and in the process will allow the galaxy to operate as it should (instead of existing under corrupt/tyrannical government systems that diminish the value and quality of life and by extension imbalance the Force). In RotJ, Anakin destroyed the Emperor by just throwing him down a reactor shaft, which accomplished this. With that in mind, if Anakin's foretold task is to be taken into account, it should basically guarantee his victory. How would he do so, I have no idea. By all accounts, Sidious by this point is noticeably more powerful (greater versatility, destructive capacity, physical stats, etc.), but Anakin is mandated by the Force to kill Palpatine. So he does.

Without that, Anakin would lose. Not much debate to be had there. His feats are simply inferior, Palpatine dueled evenly with superior duelists to Anakin, and Sidious already showed that he can fight too fast for Anakin to see.

@Silver2467 said:

I have wanted to discuss this with @JediXMan for a while.

This essentially depends on whether or not the will of the Force bears any precedence. Palpatine's deliberations purposely defied the Force's natural state (between his various rituals to imbalance it, corrupting the Republic, corrupting the Jedi, demeaning life, etc.), which is why the Force was inclined to restore its natural state by having him eliminated. Under those conditions, Anakin was supposed to kill him, being the Force's Chosen One. To my knowledge, it makes no difference how Anakin kills him; all that matters is that he does kill him, which will cause the Empire to dissipate as it can't function without the Emperor's dark side applications, and in the process will allow the galaxy to operate as it should (instead of existing under corrupt/tyrannical government systems that diminish the value and quality of life and by extension imbalance the Force). In RotJ, Anakin destroyed the Emperor by just throwing him down a reactor shaft, which accomplished this. With that in mind, if Anakin's foretold task is to be taken into account, it should basically guarantee his victory. How would he do so, I have no idea. By all accounts, Sidious by this point is noticeably more powerful (greater versatility, destructive capacity, physical stats, etc.), but Anakin is mandated by the Force to kill Palpatine. So he does.

Without that, Anakin would lose. Not much debate to be had there. His feats are simply inferior, Palpatine dueled evenly with superior duelists to Anakin, and Sidious already showed that he can fight too fast for Anakin to see.

"Sidious already showed that he can fight too fast for Anakin to see"

He has? When was this? I always thought that Anakin was much faster than Palpatine.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once. 
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine? 
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

 He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.

@Silver2467:

It's all speculation, but my theory is that the fight in Palpatine's chamber with Mace was the deciding point for Anakin. If he turned on Palpatine right then, Mace or no Mace (because I don't want to have that discussion for the hundredth time), he would have killed him because he was the Chosen One and that is exactly what he is meant to do. I don't know if you read my story (it's not nearly as well written as my newer stuff), but I actually did write about this and what would happen.

Going by feats only and ignoring all the prophetic stuff, it's quite obvious that Palpatine would crush little Annie.

Palps all day everyday. Raw power goes to Ani but experience-wise, Sidious leads by a great deal.

Wee bit off-topic: Wasn't there a hoax once that said that Anakin was supposed to be twice more powerful than Palpie then when he got burned he became just 80% of Palps? I don't remember the exact numbers but I was fooled by that one. Hehehe!

@JediXMan: Do you think Palps had a sudden increase in power post-ROTS because he no longer needed to cloud his presence as a Sith Lord?

@ssejllenrad said:

@JediXMan: Do you think Palps had a sudden increase in power post-ROTS because he no longer needed to cloud his presence as a Sith Lord?

No. My theory is that he got more powerful because he raided the vault in the Jedi Temple; the Jedi hid away a lot of Sith texts and holocrons.

That's my theory, anyway.

@JediXMan: Your theory is waaaaay more logical than mine. hehe!

@Silver2467:

It's all speculation, but my theory is that the fight in Palpatine's chamber with Mace was the deciding point for Anakin. If he turned on Palpatine right then, Mace or no Mace (because I don't want to have that discussion for the hundredth time), he would have killed him because he was the Chosen One and that is exactly what he is meant to do. I don't know if you read my story (it's not nearly as well written as my newer stuff), but I actually did write about this and what would happen.

Going by feats only and ignoring all the prophetic stuff, it's quite obvious that Palpatine would crush little Annie.

Raw power goes to Ani but experience-wise

Wee bit off-topic: Wasn't there a hoax once that said that Anakin was supposed to be twice more powerful than Palpie then when he got burned he became just 80% of Palps? I don't remember the exact numbers but I was fooled by that one. Hehehe!

@Silver2467: I just remembered. The hoax came from that wanker Supershadow.

@ssejllenrad said:

@JediXMan: Do you think Palps had a sudden increase in power post-ROTS because he no longer needed to cloud his presence as a Sith Lord?

No. My theory is that he got more powerful because he raided the vault in the Jedi Temple; the Jedi hid away a lot of Sith texts and holocrons.

That's my theory, anyway.

@Silver2467: I just remembered. The hoax came from that wanker Supershadow.

@Silver2467 said:

@JediXMan said:

@Silver2467:

It's all speculation, but my theory is that the fight in Palpatine's chamber with Mace was the deciding point for Anakin. If he turned on Palpatine right then, Mace or no Mace (because I don't want to have that discussion for the hundredth time), he would have killed him because he was the Chosen One and that is exactly what he is meant to do. I don't know if you read my story (it's not nearly as well written as my newer stuff), but I actually did write about this and what would happen.

Going by feats only and ignoring all the prophetic stuff, it's quite obvious that Palpatine would crush little Annie.

This is what I was thinking. At any point, if Anakin decided to turn on Palpatine, he could and would have killed him. As you said, this is speculative to an extent, because it relies on a specific interpretation of the prophecy that, as far as I know, has never been confirmed. Our interpretation is that Anakin will kill Palpatine, and when and how he does so is inconsequential. He simply has the ability to because he is supposed to. However, there is the interpretation that Anakin was foreseen as killing the Emperor in RotJ right when that happened, and therefore, throwing him down a shaft was the only time and way he could have defeated him. That theory is less plausible, in my opinion, because I see no reason why that event is when it needed to happen or why it needed to happen in that manner, but it could be debated, I suppose. Still, interesting to see you are of the same opinion I am on this.

I don't know about that. I don't know how true it is, but I think it may have been a matter of when. The how is meaningless. But I feel like some events have more... weight and importance than others. Think Doctor Who and its thoughts on "fixed points in time." I have a difficult time believing that Anakin could have killed Palpatine at any other time than in the chamber or on the second Death Star. It's not about power, but those specific fixed points. That's my opinion, at any rate. I have no facts to back that up.

Palpatine. Anakin had the potential to be the greatest but never utilized that. Also Darth Revan>any other star wars character. And don't give that meidchlorian crap, that ruined the mystery of star wars.

I have wanted to discuss this with @JediXMan for a while.

This essentially depends on whether or not the will of the Force bears any precedence. Palpatine's deliberations purposely defied the Force's natural state (between his various rituals to imbalance it, corrupting the Republic, corrupting the Jedi, demeaning life, etc.), which is why the Force was inclined to restore its natural state by having him eliminated. Under those conditions, Anakin was supposed to kill him, being the Force's Chosen One. To my knowledge, it makes no difference how Anakin kills him; all that matters is that he does kill him, which will cause the Empire to dissipate as it can't function without the Emperor's dark side applications, and in the process will allow the galaxy to operate as it should (instead of existing under corrupt/tyrannical government systems that diminish the value and quality of life and by extension imbalance the Force). In RotJ, Anakin destroyed the Emperor by just throwing him down a reactor shaft, which accomplished this. With that in mind, if Anakin's foretold task is to be taken into account, it should basically guarantee his victory. How would he do so, I have no idea. By all accounts, Sidious by this point is noticeably more powerful (greater versatility, destructive capacity, physical stats, etc.), but Anakin is mandated by the Force to kill Palpatine. So he does.

Without that, Anakin would lose. Not much debate to be had there. His feats are simply inferior, Palpatine dueled evenly with superior duelists to Anakin, and Sidious already showed that he can fight too fast for Anakin to see

@Silver2467 said:

this

I agree with Silver and JediXman. Palps would win the fight on paper, as he is noticeably superior in almost every aspect to Ep 3 Anakin. Raw power, experience, combat ability, knowledge of the Force, etc. all lean in Palpatine's favor.

But since Anakin is The Chosen One, he is destined to kill The Emperor. But as Jolee Bindo said in one his stories in KOTOR: "Just because you have a destiny doesn't make you invulnerable" or something to that degree.

Anakin may very well die in the act of killing Sidious. Actually, that's exactly what would happen in my opinion. Anakin takes Sidious out in some unexpected way after being thoroughly trounced and fatally wounded by Sidious.

@Silver2467 said:

@JediXMan said:

@Silver2467:

It's all speculation, but my theory is that the fight in Palpatine's chamber with Mace was the deciding point for Anakin. If he turned on Palpatine right then, Mace or no Mace (because I don't want to have that discussion for the hundredth time), he would have killed him because he was the Chosen One and that is exactly what he is meant to do. I don't know if you read my story (it's not nearly as well written as my newer stuff), but I actually did write about this and what would happen.

Going by feats only and ignoring all the prophetic stuff, it's quite obvious that Palpatine would crush little Annie.

This is what I was thinking. At any point, if Anakin decided to turn on Palpatine, he could and would have killed him. As you said, this is speculative to an extent, because it relies on a specific interpretation of the prophecy that, as far as I know, has never been confirmed. Our interpretation is that Anakin will kill Palpatine, and when and how he does so is inconsequential. He simply has the ability to because he is supposed to. However, there is the interpretation that Anakin was foreseen as killing the Emperor in RotJ right when that happened, and therefore, throwing him down a shaft was the only time and way he could have defeated him. That theory is less plausible, in my opinion, because I see no reason why that event is when it needed to happen or why it needed to happen in that manner, but it could be debated, I suppose. Still, interesting to see you are of the same opinion I am on this.

I don't know about that. I don't know how true it is, but I think it may have been a matter of when. The how is meaningless. But I feel like some events have more... weight and importance than others. Think Doctor Who and its thoughts on "fixed points in time." I have a difficult time believing that Anakin could have killed Palpatine at any other time than in the chamber or on the second Death Star. It's not about power, but those specific fixed points. That's my opinion, at any rate. I have no facts to back that up.

sidious wins

May The Force Be With You!!

Yoda and Mace are more powerful than Sidious. Yoda nearly beat Palp, but lost his Saber and fell so it was a stale mate. Mace over powered him and almost killed him until....Anakin. But I think Sidious would utterly destroy Anakin.

LOL @ Yoda and Mace being more powerful then Sidious.

Why do people bump old threads just to post wrong info?

Also, Palpatine would wreck Anakin.

Mace beat Sidious. Yoda and Sidious fought to a stalemate, although Sidious did have the unfair advantage of having an army come in and back him up, forcing Yoda to flee.

I believe Anakin has the potential to defeat Sidious, although his arrogance could be his downfall (which caused him to lose to Obi wan). In the "What if..." Story where Anakin defeats Obi wan instead, he immediately kills Sidious when he arrives on Mustafar and crowns himself Emporer. That's exactly what would've happened if he didn't lose to Obi wan.

If the premise of the Chosen One becomes realized in this fight, Anakin would win. Otherwise, Sidious would wreck Anakin.

@shootingnova

If the premise of the Chosen One becomes realized in this fight, Anakin would win. Otherwise, Sidious would wreck Anakin.

You guys give Sidious too much credit. While he was indeed powerful, he wasn't the type to fight his opponents head on. His power lie in his deception and manipulation not raw strength, combat skills or power. Mace Windu was a better swordsman than him and I'm pretty sure Anakin had more force power than him. It's the reason why Sidious killed his master in his sleep instead of face him.

Sith Lords in older times were stronger fighters. Darth Malgus, Darth Revan and Darth Nihilus could take Sidious in a toe to toe battle. Even Darth Vader (literally half the man Anakin was) killed Sidious by simply picking him up and tossing him down that shaft. Think about that for a moment.

Ugghh

1. Mace Windu was not a better swordsman he was significantly amped in his fight.

2. Anakin had the POTENTIAL to become more powerful then Sidious but he never came close to realizing it.

3. At the time he killed his master in his sleep he wasn't even half as powerful as the EU version of Palpatine we're using here.

4. Complete assumption. What has Darth Malgus, Revan or Nihilus done that is in any way better then Sidious? Nothing that's what. Not even Nihilus's force drain is better as Sidious has drained continually and without any strain a planet with the population of 20,000,000,000 while simultaneously telepathically manipulating them. And Revan and Malgus are almost featless.

5. It is clear you are new to CV so don't feel too bad about these mistakes we all learn eventually.

People desperately need to stop underselling movie characters because they felt their EU was redundant and then fanwanking OR era Sith Lords because they came from awesome games or had a badass factor or because the game mechanics made them look that powerful or whatever it was. Let's be honest - most of the people that insinuate that OR era Sith Lords are more powerful only recognize the movie Sith from the films, not from their EU which appears redundant or whatever of the sorts, especially because the movies were believed to be bad or anything along that line. EU Sidious would slaughterhouse Revan, Malgus and Nihilus at once via Force Storm, TK, speedblitz, Lightning, TP, Essence manipulation, etc.

This made me chuckle. Even if it is inaccurate

You should read the novelization of ROTS, it quite clearly states that Yoda was no match, and was never a match for Sidious, which is why ended up retreating and eventually going into exile! This page perfectly sums up Yoda's battle with Sidious.....

"That he (Yoda) the avatar of light.....JUST DIDNT HAVE IT!" (referring to his ability to beat Sidious/The Dark Side!

Sidious. ROTS Sidious is still much more faster and, the better duelist than Anakin would ever be.

I think Sidious was more impressive, in the films. He was more powerful with the Force than Anakin and, i think, a superior lightsaber duellist to and more physically capable than Anakin, too. EU feats may change that, but as it is, with the films in mind, imma give this fight to the Emperor.

Sidious curbstomps, and I'm inclined to believe that this fight would end with Anakin losing, but surviving through a plot device in order to later fulfill the prophecy. There's no way he can just out-duel the Emperor. It's not within his capabilities.

EU sidious is non canon

@ssejllenrad: @assman: @ssjdarthplagueis: @i_like_swords: @mjolnirson: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/venger-and-wrath-amon-vs-emperor-palpatine-and-dar-1655688/

If anakin never joined the dark side he didn't know force lighting and force lighting is big thing. He would use lighting like he did to end master windu

If the force wanted Anakin to win so badly, why doesn't the force take away Sidious' powers and give him a spontaneous heart attack?

Because the Force isn't a massive hypocrite.

Sidious is still much too powerful and skilled.

Anakin Skywalker could and would win, I think. And it doesn't just have to do with being The Chosen One. It would probably take Anakin just about all his power to do the deed as a Jedi Knight in ROTS, but nevertheless I think he could win. I have read alot of replies on here with excellent points in Sidious' favor. But there is more to consider:

First off, just because Anakin in the novel in his head considered Palpatine a 'blur of speed' and so on doesn't mean he would be no match for Palpatine. Anakin may have just been surprised that Palpatine could pull such moves, let alone know he were even capable. For Pete's sake, how long did Anakin and Palpatine chill like buddies or nephew-and-uncle before Sidious revealed himself? 13 years?

Secondly, Darth Sidious would be Bantha fodder if Anakin hadn't intervened against Mace Windu. Windu would have destroyed Sidious. Don't get me wrong. There are many experienced and vastly powerful Jedi who wouldn't last 5 minutes against Sidious, including Obi-Wan, Luke Skywalker (at least prior and during the events of ROTJ. Post-ROTJ Luke Skywalker is a totally different ballpark), Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, (to a lesser extent) Kit Fisto, probably a vast majority of the Jedi Order then and in many other timelines. And many of those Jedi are as awesome all the same. Yoda was just as capable of beating Sidious as Windu. Though Yoda's burst of Force Energy knocked Sidious back, they were in a huge, spacious area filled with the Senate. Lol. While Mace Windu was one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the prequels, he also described Anakin in the novel as 'arguably the most powerful Jedi alive.' And, 'all the more reason to fear an outsider's influence.' Also in the book, 'the shadow'(Sidious) says to Dooku of Anakin, 'He is powerful. Potentially more powerful than even myself.'

That being said, I think Anakin Skywalker could beat Darth Sidious in a legit lightsaber duel and that every bit of potential was there before Obi-Wan fubar'd him on Mustafar.

Bump

Palpatine would win this with little trouble.

Palpatine 6/10

Anakin. Sidious himself says to Yoda that Anakin is more powerful. Also, Mace Windu defeated Palpatine in their lightsaber duel. Regardless of what Sidious' fans would like to believe there's nothing anywhere that shows he lost on purpose. Also, Windu deflected his force lightning back on his face. Anakin saw that happen so he obviously already has a counter for the only move Sidious could use against him.

Sidious: "You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

Palpatine said that Anakin would supersede himself and Yoda at some time in the future; this was a statement of potential power, not achieved power.

According to George Lucas and starwars.com, Mace winning non-circumstantially is not so clear-cut. Three different pages on starwars.com state that Mace's victory over Sidious is open to viewer interpretation.

10 Best Fights

The ending continues to be debated; Windu seemingly has Sidious beaten, unarmed and cowering. But was this all planned to get Anakin to come to his defense?

Mace Windu Databank

Mace seemed to defeat Sidious and raised his lightsaber to strike down the Sith Lord, but a desperate Anakin ignited his own weapon and severed Mace’s forearm.

Mace Windu Biography Gallery, Image 31 of 32

Mace prevailed and appeared to defeat Sidious.

Lucas also has refused to comment on whether or not Palpatine intended to lose in a Homing Beacon article.

Homing Beacon #139 Archive

It's one of the fieriest debates of online fan forums: when Palpatine was cornered in his office's giant window-frame, was he really overpowered by Mace? Or was he faking to lure Anakin? Could Mace really have gotten the upper hand on the Sith Lord?

George Lucas is the ultimate keeper of the true answer, and he's not telling... yet, anyway. If you had asked me in the Summer of '03, when the sequence was first shot, I would have had a solid answer. But, if you asked me in the Fall of '04, when the sequence was re-shot, well... for those who want to debate, it's best to know more of the story of how this scene came to be.

So... with this revised duel, if Sidious threw the fight, it places an awful lot of faith on Anakin's timing ...and he suffered a kicked-in face to boot. For what it's worth to those arguing, I doubt there's anyone who thinks Palpatine's serious when he claims he's too weak. That's obviously a lie. But was the fall into the corner that preceded his pleas for help a lie as well?

The fight is open for debate. There are no definitive facts one way or another. If your opinion is that Mace legitimately outmatched Palpatine in the duel, fair enough; I honestly take no issue with that interpretation. But what I do take issue with is when people act like the debate is settled. There are no absolute facts on this in either case; there are hints from various sources that Mace straight-up outfought him and hints from various sources that Palpatine held back to garner Anakin's sympathy. As it stands, the scene is subject to viewer discretion. The filmmakers and SW's official website has left this a matter of opinion; we should do the same.

Whether or not you believe Sidious refrained from killing Mace in the duel and allowed him to win, Palpatine holding back during the Lightning exchange once Anakin entered the room is not open to interpretation. Several sources have outright stated that he held back. In fact, the RotS novelization says clearly that Palpatine was overpowering Mace via Lightning before he stopped producing the bolts. One way or another, even if you think Mace can defeat him blade to blade, the fact is that Palpatine can defeat Mace, armed or not, with Lightning.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

However, all of this is one long red herring. The skills Mace possesses are not translatable to Anakin. Who would win in a fight between Mace and Anakin is itself arguable, but we know for certain based on Attack of the Clones featurettes that Mace was the second most capable swordsman in the Order by the time of AotC, beneath only Yoda. Anakin may or may not have surpassed him as of RotS. As a result, Mace winning is by itself ambiguous, and Anakin being superior to Mace is also ambiguous.

To the fight itself, Anakin may win if the will of the Force bears any relevance here (and depending on whether or not you call the will of the Force PIS), but otherwise, in a straight fight, Palpatine wins.

With prophecy amp, Anakin autowins.

No prophecy amp? Sidious stomps.

Anakin did became one with the Force... Twice. Otherwise no, Palps wins hands down.