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#51 Edited by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@generator2000: Nobody said anything about no EU. I said you were using a doppleganger of Maul, and an amped one, at that. It's not applicable in this fight.

#52 Posted by generator2000 (1193 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: I know. I was talking about the Maul I mentioned.

#53 Posted by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio
#54 Posted by Silver2467 (16387 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: If I recall correctly, a source explicitly states that Anakin, when dual-wielding against Dooku in AotC, had to break out of his favored Djem So and change to an unfavored Jar Kai, which hindered more than it helped.

I can't off the top of my head name a source that confirms dual-wielding hindered Anakin, but Fightsaber did state that he adopted an Ataru fighting stance when dual-wielding.

is a more experienced swordsman and is a master of multiple fighting styles taught to him by Sidious (I don't remember the source; might have been The New Essential Chronology).

Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

"I took inspiration from the Jedi tradition of indoctrinating Force-sensitive infants when I selected one apprentice, whom I named Darth Maul. I took him from his home world, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side."

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

I don't think it'd create a lot of problems for Maul unless they're equally skilled in it, to which Anakin's comparable aggressiveness, physique and power might trouble Maul.

Makes sense.

#55 Edited by Intrepid37 (697 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: I think it might have been the Attack of the Clones novelization. I don't have the book on hand right now, but will look through it later.

Edit: I found what I was looking for. It's not directly confirmed, but hinted at. The source is Fight Saber.

Anakin's overconfidence in his own abilities causes him to break out of his usual Form V routine and engage Dooku with the two lightsaber variant of Form IV.

#56 Posted by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

@generator2000 said:

Vader had to attempt suicide to beat Maul in EU. Anakin is bantha fodder

That was an amped doppleganger. That's not the Maul we're considering.

That Maul exactly same with TPM Maul.

#57 Posted by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: No, it wasn't, unless there was some retcon I don't know about.

#58 Posted by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: No, it wasn't, unless there was some retcon I don't know about.

How do you know that was 'amped' ? They didn't say anything about it, so it was regular TPM Maul.

#59 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (7084 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin.

#60 Posted by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

There is great difference between Episode II Anakin and Maul...

#61 Edited by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Dooku's Lightning actually has feats, as opposed to Mighella's featless Lightning. Dooku would also beat Maul, so using Dooku as a benchmark is not the best idea.

On the other hand - there actually isn't a great difference. They are similar in levels of saber dueling, strength and speed.

#62 Edited by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@erkan12: Dooku's Lightning actually has feats, as opposed to Mighella's featless Lightning. Dooku would also beat Maul, so using Dooku as a benchmark is not the best idea.

On the other hand - there actually isn't a great difference. They are similar in levels of saber dueling, strength and speed.

Dooku's lightning not a true sith lightning. You can see the difference when you look at Obi-Wan stopped his lightning easily, but Sidious's lightning gave hard time to Windu and Yoda's lightsaber fall against his lightning. Also Yoda stopped Dooku's lightning easily with his tutaminis technique but when he try to stop Sidious's lightning he failed and fall.

Episode II Anakin is no match for the true dark side user like Maul. Dooku is expert about force but Maul is better dark side user than Dooku.

#63 Edited by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: LOL @ Dooku's Lightning not being Sith Lightning. I'm sorry, you have canonical evidence stating that? Obi-Wan blocking it is because Obi-Wan is well skilled, while Force Lightning is stated to be very difficult to block.

Palpatine is a horrible comparison because he is the most powerful Sith in the history of the galaxy, and has demonstrated the most powerful usages of Lightning (such as destroying armies). Maul stood no chance against Palpatine's Lightning anyways - and Palpatine has repeatedly stomped Maul.

None of this changes the fact that Mighella's Lightning is even worse - she has no feats. Dooku's Lightning has incapacitated Anakin and Ventress and repeatedly subjugating Anakin and Savage to it.

@erkan12 said:

Dooku is expert about force but Maul is better dark side user than Dooku.

LOL. And where have you come by this? "Better" is a very personal and opinionated term, so I assume you mean "more powerful". But Maul isn't more powerful. Aside from potentially having superior strength, and not by a significant margin, I see no reason why Maul would be more powerful, especially considering that this is only up to TPM. Beyond that, your avatar is of Maul, so tell me why I shouldn't be thinking of you as a biased poster. Beyond that, you also seem to have a history of advertising Maul, and at times mistakenly so. I think I will take the path of the likes of JXM, and look at avatars/post count/post history to decide who I'm dealing with. In any case, the comparison between Dooku and Maul is as follows:

For dueling - Maul has defeated Qui-Gon, defeated Siolo'urmanka and defeated/stalemated Anoon Bondara . The latter two have virtually no feats, and Qui-Gon wasn't in his prime yet still gave much of a run for Maul. On the other hand, Dooku has stomped Ventress across several occasions, defeated Obi-Wan, defeated Windu, defeated Grievous, contended/stalemated with Anakin across TCW in spite of the fact that Anakin held a tremendous advantage in form, has held his own against Yoda, stalemated Ventress and two of her Nightsisters while drugged to the point of blindness and relying solely Force to perceive his surroundings, and has humbled Sora and Tholme simultaneously. I take Dooku's showings over Maul's any day. Even if you were to regard the TCW feats, Dooku still takes this department.

As of TPM, Maul really hasn't got many Force feats - Dooku stomps via TK and Lightning. As of TCW, Maul has some impressive TK feats, such as collapsing part of a cave (which Dooku has done) and hurling a Republic shuttle. That's impressive but Dooku has collapsed a bridge with what appears to be ease, and also lifted over a dozen obelisks. If Intrepid's calculations can be trusted, then the latter feat is worth approximately 100 tons. Regardless TPM Maul is the one in this fight - so Dooku takes this area easily as well.

Beyond that, Maul has some impressive speed feats, including sidestepping/dodging blaster bolts and moving faster than a droid can see. Yet even in his prime (TCW) he was portrayed as equal to the Jedi Master Obi-Wan in speed. Dooku has dodged strikes from Ventress, Savage and Grievous, and was stated to be faster than Obi-Wan in his prime. Dooku takes this department as well.

The only area where Maul potentially has superior feats than Dooku, is physical strength. This is mainly because of Dooku's own lack of strength feats, but given how he has contended (and defeated in the case of the latter) with Anakin and Grievous, who possess better strength feats than Maul, I hardly see why this would really be of much difference in a fight.

There's absolutely no reason to suggest Maul is superior to Dooku. That's just nonsense.

If you were referencing knowledge, Dooku has plenty of holocrons and other ancient Sith knowledge he actually learned. Maul never learned any of that and was never the type to do so in the first place.

#64 Posted by JetiiMitra (8874 posts) - - Show Bio

For dueling - Maul has defeated Qui-Gon, defeated Siolo'urmanka and defeated/stalemated Anoon Bondara . The latter two have virtually no feats, and Qui-Gon wasn't in his prime yet still gave much of a run for Maul. On the other hand, Dooku has stomped Ventress across several occasions, defeated Obi-Wan, defeated Windu, defeated Grievous, contended/stalemated with Anakin across TCW in spite of the fact that Anakin held a tremendous advantage in form, has held his own against Yoda, stalemated Ventress and two of her Nightsisters while drugged to the point of blindness and relying solely Force to perceive his surroundings, and has humbled Sora and Tholme simultaneously. I take Dooku's showings over Maul's any day. Even if you were to regard the TCW feats, Dooku still takes this department.

About Dooku stalemating Anakin in TCW: in the novelization of RotS, it was pretty clear that Dooku was taken by surprise at Anakin's use of Djem So. If Anakin had been using it in their fights through TCW then obviously he wouldn't have been surprised. Do you think then that Anakin was actually using Djem So throughout TCW and chalk that bit in RotS up to an inconsistency?

#65 Edited by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran: Umm... Anakin used Djem So in AotC as well. Regardless, TCW came after RotS so yes we can consider that "surprise" to be "retconned" and no longer canon. I'm not sure how to better explain it.

Beyond that, Anakin did tap into his rage at the end, which led to Dooku's demise.

#66 Edited by JetiiMitra (8874 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: He used it in AotC, but I'd assumed he wasn't proficient enough to try and use it when fighting Dooku specifically.

I get what you're saying, I just feel it takes away from novels. TCW strikes again.

#67 Posted by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran: There's no reason for Dooku to be surprised. Dooku has already fought the likes of Grievous, who has similar levels of strength.

#68 Posted by JediXMan (31316 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm backing Anakin here.

Moderator
#69 Posted by JetiiMitra (8874 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Not surprised necessarily at the strength itself, but at the fact that Anakin was generating it through Djem So. I think he was expecting Ataru or some other form, so that threw him for a loop. It was the same deal with Obi-Wan and Soresu. Dooku was expecting to counter one form, so he was taken aback at fighting another. It didn't take long for him to adapt, but he did get worried for a moment.

#70 Edited by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran: No. Djem So is Anakin's primary form and Dooku has contended with that.

However, I think you were referring to the beginning instance in which the Jedi initiated with forms like Ataru and Shien, not their primary forms, against Dooku. Later they changed to their primary forms, which may have surprised Dooku (like the Jedi probably intended).

#71 Posted by JetiiMitra (8874 posts) - - Show Bio
#72 Posted by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran: In that case, it wasn't the actual form itself that Dooku was surprised by, but the sudden transition between forms.

#73 Edited by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio
@shootingnova: Darth Plagueis stated that,
''A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer one's will. But the Force cannot be treated deferentially. In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself.''
Who do you think ''a jedi sufficiently strong in the force'' ???
Of course Dooku. He was jedi for all his life, and he become Sidious's apprentice and he learned sith lightning after his 80's ? Of course not. He is using regular force lightning, like mighella like plo koon...
And he said this to Obi-Wan, (after his force lightning on Anakin)
''My jedi powers beyond on yours''
Why is he said 'jedi powers' because he was using force lightning when he was jedi... Not he achieve that because he become apprentice of Sidious.
Not only Sidious, also Plagueis or Bane can use true sith lightning too.
So Dooku's regular lightning nothing against, true sith apprentice like Darth Maul ;
''You know nothing of the dark side.''
The thing is, you guys be deceived by Dooku's archaic makashi style. His techinique just give him advantage in 'lightsaber duels' nothing more. This includes any kind of enemy or animal, plus blaster shoots... Also he can't use kinetic energy on his attacks like Maul does. Because of that i'm saying that 'generally' Maul is better lightsaber user, Dooku is just a duelist. He is not good like Vader or Maul in ''generally''.
So Maul would do the same to Dooku like he did to Vader ;
Dooku was no better than Vader's peak situation. Maul faster, much younger, he can use kinetic attacks, Dooku would tired if he didn't finish the duel quickly.
#74 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (26967 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12 said:
@shootingnova: Darth Plagueis stated that,
''A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer one's will. But the Force cannot be treated deferentially. In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself.''
Who do you think ''a jedi sufficiently strong in the force'' ???
Of course Dooku. He was jedi for all his life, and he become Sidious's apprentice and he learned sith lightning after his 80's ? Of course not. He is using regular force lightning, like mighella like plo koon...
And he said this to Obi-Wan, (after his force lightning on Anakin)
''My jedi powers beyond on yours''
Why is he said 'jedi powers' because he was using force lightning when he was jedi... Not he achieve that because he become apprentice of Sidious.
Not only Sidious, also Plagueis or Bane can use true sith lightning too.
So Dooku's regular lightning nothing against, true sith apprentice like Darth Maul ;
''You know nothing of the dark side.''
The thing is, you guys be deceived by Dooku's archaic makashi style. His techinique just give him advantage in 'lightsaber duels' nothing more. This includes any kind of enemy or animal, plus blaster shoots... Also he can't use kinetic energy on his attacks like Maul does. Because of that i'm saying that 'generally' Maul is better lightsaber user, Dooku is just a duelist. He is not good like Vader or Maul in ''generally''.
So Maul would do the same to Dooku like he did to Vader ;
Dooku was no better than Vader's peak situation. Maul faster, much younger, he can use kinetic attacks, Dooku would tired if he didn't finish the duel quickly.

lol. This post if so full of wrong I can't even begin to point it out.

Dooku> Maul. As a character and a force sensitive.

Online
#75 Posted by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio
@erkan12 said:
@shootingnova: Darth Plagueis stated that,
''A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer one's will. But the Force cannot be treated deferentially. In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself.''
Who do you think ''a jedi sufficiently strong in the force'' ???
Of course Dooku. He was jedi for all his life, and he become Sidious's apprentice and he learned sith lightning after his 80's ? Of course not. He is using regular force lightning, like mighella like plo koon...
And he said this to Obi-Wan, (after his force lightning on Anakin)
''My jedi powers beyond on yours''
Why is he said 'jedi powers' because he was using force lightning when he was jedi... Not he achieve that because he become apprentice of Sidious.
Not only Sidious, also Plagueis or Bane can use true sith lightning too.
So Dooku's regular lightning nothing against, true sith apprentice like Darth Maul ;
''You know nothing of the dark side.''

LOL. In other words you are going to make up information to try and turn things against me. No.

Dooku was never a Jedi all his life. He reached the pinnacle of his power like a Sith Lord, where he had stores of ancient Sith knowledge he actually learned, whereas Maul was simply a martial apprentice. Plo Koon never used Sith Lightning, only Electric Judgment.

"Jedi powers" is an obscure term that designates Force-based powers derived from the Jedi, since the Sith Order (not the species) began as outcasts of the Jedi Order. That said, throughout the Phantom Menace (and in the novelization), Qui-Gon notes that Maul is "trained in the Jedi Arts". Does this make Maul a Jedi? No - the only thing this implies is that Maul knew arts derived from the Jedi, which is true since the traditional combat forms were from the Jedi (save for Makashi, but that's irrelevant since it was integrated into Jedi combat anyways).

LOL @ Maul being a true apprentice. You quote a novel you didn't even read. It was made abundantly clear, especially in Darth Plagueis, that Maul was simply trained as an assassin to be disposed of - he was never going to continue the Order of the Sith Lords, and neither was Dooku. The thing was that Dooku was a much better initiator for the Clone Wars than Maul, so Sidious sought him out after he retired from the Jedi Order in disgust and realized his political potential would allow him to lead the Separatists, something Maul, being a martial assassin, would never be able to do.

Plagueis intended to rule the galaxy with Sidious, ending the Rule of Two, but Sidious killed Plagueis to institute his own way of ruling. When he learnt of Anakin, he wanted him to be his apprentice, and was prepared to dispose of Maul when the time was right. The problem was that Maul "died" prematurely, so Sidious took another apprentice temporarily, and that apprentice was Dooku.

If you really want to use out-of-context terms and titles which are utterly irrelevant in a fight, rather than feats, then I could do the same:

He is a fencer. Leverage, position, advantage—they are as natural to him as breathing.

Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

And beyond that, Maul stated he didn't want to meet Plo Koon in a fight. I'm sorry, but Dooku was outright stated to be superior/equal (depending on the source) to Windu, who was only matched/defeated by Yoda, and of course, Dooku.

We also have Dooku considering Maul a monster. But again, none of this matters in a fight.


The thing is, you guys be deceived by Dooku's archaic makashi style. His techinique just give him advantage in 'lightsaber duels' nothing more. This includes any kind of enemy or animal, plus blaster shoots... Also he can't use kinetic energy on his attacks like Maul does. Because of that i'm saying that 'generally' Maul is better lightsaber user, Dooku is just a duelist.

Wait, so you think this isn't a lightsaber duel? It's going to be some diplomatic solution, now, perhaps? Right, so Makashi isn't being useful here since it isn't a lightsaber duel. Why would you claim Maul is stronger, faster etc. when all that only matters in a duel, and then you claim Dooku's advantage is worthless because this scenario isn't a duel. Nice contradicting yourself, but anybody who has learnt to read can pick up on that.

Beyond that - Dooku has overcome two of the three principle weaknesses of the Makashi form - ineffectiveness against blaster bolts, and ineffectiveness against multiple enemies (not any kind of enemy, where in the world did you get that from). The third weakness was the ineffectiveness against forms like Djem So, which press immense strength into their attacks. Any master of Makashi, no matter how skilled, would be incapable of overcoming this simply because it was a weakness born of the core, fundamental aspects of the fighting style of Makashi. Yet, Dooku himself, amped with strength, was capable of preventing most beings from outright overpowering him, including General Grievous who is stronger than Maul from given feats.


Dooku was no better than Vader's peak situation. Maul faster, much younger, he can use kinetic attacks, Dooku would tired if he didn't finish the duel quickly.

Dooku is faster than Vader, and being younger doesn't necessarily give you a win-free ticket. Maul being faster and stronger than Qui-Gon does not translate to being faster or stronger than Dooku, especially since the latter is admirably superior in both respects, and is superior to Maul, at least in speed. Maul is not faster. Dodging blaster bolts and moving faster than a droid can follow is impressive, but at best he is equivalent to Obi-Wan Kenobi in his prime (this has already been illustrated). Unfortunately for Maul, Dooku is faster than Obi-Wan, and additionally is fast enough to dodge strikes from Ventress, Grievous and Savage, each of which have deflected numerous blaster bolts quite easily. Dooku is certainly faster.


Also he can't use kinetic energy on his attacks like Maul does.

Wrong. Dooku has demonstrated that he can kick Anakin backwards, and kick a Nightsister while drugged and dueling two other Nightsisters (and one of whom is Ventress). Beyond that, Dooku's weakness to strength is simply far overblown in this scenario. Dooku was struggling against Anakin and Yoda's strength because they supersede Maul in strength; Maul doesn't supersede Dooku in the first place.

Similarly, Dooku was only tired against Anakin and Yoda, who again are far superior to Maul in physicality. Against the likes of Ventress, Obi-Wan and Grievous - he fought them without getting tired at all.

You're grasping at straws.

There is nothing Maul beats Dooku in (especially TPM Maul, which is this one). Nothing.

#76 Edited by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

lol. This post if so full of wrong I can't even begin to point it out.

Dooku> Maul. As a character and a force sensitive.

Double lol. You can't make assumptions like a > b ,

unless you don't understand anything. Dooku and Maul very very different characters, saying that ''Dooku is better than Maul about everything'' means basically you are Dooku fan.

I explained Dooku's advantages and Maul's advantages, my vote goes Maul. It is not hard to understand...

@shootingnova said:
Dooku is certainly faster

Wow.

Dooku is absolutely not faster than Obi-Wan, his Makashi technique has great advantage against Obi-Wan's Ataru-Soresu technique...

Maul using Juyo+Teras Kasi, so Dooku has no advantage against Maul's dynamic and aggresive techinique. (Like djem so)

And Grievous, Savage, Ventress are Dooku's apprentices, they are no match for this contest, maybe Ventress...

Also Plagueis stated that Maul's speed is considerable.

About kinetic, i meant on lightsaber... He can't use his Makashi with force, like Juyo and Djem so does.

Why do you think Dooku lost against Episode III Anakin ? It is obvious, Anakin's agressive and kinetic attacks gave trouble to Dooku, and he get tired. It is possible that Maul can do that too.

And again, Obi-Wan's very defensive Soresu-Ataru style, is weak against Dooku's makashi, Maul's style is more like Anakin's...

And you are saying that Episode IV Vader would lost against Dooku ? Wow again.

#77 Edited by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio
@erkan12 said:

Dooku is absolutely not faster than Obi-Wan, his Makashi technique has great advantage against Obi-Wan's Ataru-Soresu technique...


Wrong.

The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat.

Source: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader

And anyways, Dooku has better speed feats overall, but slightly.

Maul using Juyo+Teras Kasi, so Dooku has no advantage against Maul's dynamic and aggresive techinique. (Like djem so)

And Grievous, Savage, Ventress are Dooku's apprentices, they are no match for this contest, maybe Ventress...

Also Plagueis stated that Maul's speed is considerable.

About kinetic, i meant on lightsaber... He can't use his Makashi with force, like Juyo and Djem so does.

Why do you think Dooku lost against Episode III Anakin ? It is obvious, Anakin's agressive and kinetic attacks gave trouble to Dooku, and he get tired. It is possible that Maul can do that too.

And again, Obi-Wan's very defensive Soresu-Ataru style, is weak against Dooku's makashi, Maul's style is more like Anakin's...

And you are saying that Episode IV Vader would lost against Dooku ? Wow again.

Dooku still maintained a working knowledge on other forms - which is how he trained Grievous in every one of the seven traditional lightsaber forms as well as Lus-ma and the Unorthodox. Form alone is not going to overpower Dooku.

What Plaguies states is irrelevant - since he never saw Dooku in a fight anyways. You have yet to give me any speed feat to indicate Maul is faster.

If you mean kinetic lightsaber hits, Dooku has disarmed Grievous before and shown enough strength to repel attacks from Anakin and Yoda who possess superior strength feats than Maul.

Dooku lost against Episode III Anakin because the latter entered a state of rage where he was further amplified. In any case, Anakin has superior strength feats relative to Maul - so until Maul strikes hard enough to crack stone beneath him or attack with the force of a meteor, this is an irrelevant matter.

Obi-Wan's style is certainly not weak to Makashi. For one, he stopped extensively utilizing Ataru and focused on Soresu, which is why he was labelled as one of the greatest Soresu masters in history. For the most part, his dueling was almost on par with Dooku's anyways.

As for Vader fighting Dooku, that's really not relevant to this fight anyways, since you seem to want to use this merely for the sake of ABC logic which doesn't work here.

And once again - remind me why I shouldn't think you are biased. You have a Maul avatar, and your history seems to involve advertising Maul.

#78 Edited by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

And once again - remind me why I shouldn't think you are biased. You have a Maul avatar, and your history seems to involve advertising Maul.

Then you need a Dooku avatar. I can provide you that.

Of course in these levels, every one of them learned other techniques. But Dooku expert about makashi, and Obi-Wan expert about Soresu-Ataru hybrid. Dooku defeated Obi-Wan easily two times, even episode II Anakin gave Dooku more trouble. Here a quote from wookiepedia ;

On Geonosis, Dooku demonstrated many of these skills against Obi-Wan Kenobi. His efficient defensive maneuvers left the Jedi's swift slashes seeming exaggerated and overdone, while Kenobi struggled to catch up to the Count's precise ripostes and unpredictable feints; many of Kenobi's parries and blocks missed Dooku's blade completely, forcing him to retreat. Kenobi was ultimately brought down by light, though damaging cuts across his left arm and thigh.[11] However, despite Dooku's absolute mastery of Form II, he was still prone to one of the style's weaknesses; the lack of kinetic power. Perhaps the most notable demonstration of this was during Dooku's fateful duel with Anakin Skywalker; Dooku was simply unable to generate the necessary power to evenly match Skywalker's preferred form, Djem So. The sheer, raw power of Form V wore down Dooku's defenses, physically exhausting him and draining his reserves of Force power.

Obi-Wan use very defensive technique and he use his opponents weakness when he catch him unbalance, against master of makashi, he has no attack power to defeat Dooku.

#79 Posted by dondave (38903 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin

#80 Edited by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Wookieepedia is not a canon source.

In any case - all you have done is reiterate my point. I said Dooku was weak to superfluously strong fighting styles, such as Djem So. Juyo is not as potent in strength, but has greater speed and mobility which almost makes up for that. Of course, that would hamper Dooku's defenses but there's no reason to suggest it would be equally effective against Dooku. Beyond that - Juyo is weak to Force powers which Dooku has plenty of. Of course, if Maul pressed Dooku enough, he wouldn't have the opportunity to bombard Maul with Force attacks, but I doubt it will happen that way.

Dooku's weakness to immense physical strength is being far too overblown. Just because Anakin, somebody who could strike with the force of a meteor and crack stone beneath him from a single strike gave Dooku trouble - that doesn't suddenly give Maul the ability to do so - he has nowhere near the level of strength necessary to actually enable him to outright beat Dooku via strength. While drugged, Dooku constantly repelled strikes from Ventress and her Nighsisters, and did so with enough force so as to knock them back/force them to recoil. In fact, in one moment Dooku pushed Ventress back several meters kinetically while heavily drugged (in other scenarios, he did the same to the other Nightsisters - it's just not much of a feat when the other two had no real feats). And no - this isn't kicking, this is legitimate saber fighting.

Furthermore, Dooku has constantly repelled strikes from Grievous and Anakin, who both possess superior strength than Maul. In fact, Dooku managed to disarm both Grievous and Anakin once (on separate occasions, of course), and by strength and strength only.

Then you need a Dooku avatar. I can provide you that.

No, I don't - because I'm not biased and I don't have a history of advertising Dooku.

Of course in these levels, every one of them learned other techniques. But Dooku expert about makashi, and Obi-Wan expert about Soresu-Ataru hybrid. Dooku defeated Obi-Wan easily two times, even episode II Anakin gave Dooku more trouble.

What does this have to do with anything? For one - this is getting more and more irrelevant - what I stated earlier was that comparing Dooku's Lightning to Mighella's Lightning was not applicable because of the feat/power differences - you dragged this into a duel between the two.

Anyways, Dooku was stated to have mastered numerous classical fighting techniques and untraditional fighting forms across the galaxy:

Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsaber may not be as ornate as that of his mentor, Count Dooku, but true to his rebellious ways, he used it to master the same classical fighting techniques as well as untraditional combat forms from across the galaxy.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

The reason he exclusively utilized Makashi in combat was really due to his competitive nature. Similarly, Maul doesn't utilize the other six forms he learnt, only Juyo.

#81 Edited by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: If you really want to continue - there's another thread pertaining to this. If it's locked, you can PM me.

None of this is relevant to the fight at hand.

#82 Edited by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

You right it become Dooku vs Maul topic, then i will continue with Maul's specialities...

Quote from wookiepedia ;

Darth Maul was a highly skilled lightsaber duelist, trained by Darth Sidious in Juyo, which drew heavily on volatile emotions and the dark side. However, Maul only devoted himself to Form VII's physical focus, desiring pure physical victory, rather than the "higher" Sith tradition of Dun Möch; dominating the opponent's spirit and exposing his inner doubts through taunts and psychological warfare.

He manage to defeat a force sensitive Drovian without lightsaber combat ; This shows his physical strength, plus against Vader himself ;

And about his speed, from wookiepedia ;

His speed was such that even Darth Plagueis himself was astounded by it

#83 Posted by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Do not use Wookieepdia. It is not a canon source. And don't use his fight against Vader, either.

In any case Maul has dodged blaster bolts at a fairly close range, deflected blaster bolts at a close range, moved faster than a droid could perceive, and so on. Qui-Gon personally admitted Maul was faster.

He also admitted Maul was stronger. Considering Maul has kicked through people's torsos, I would say so as well.

Plagueis was astounded doesn't mean he is faster than Plagueis, which he certainly isn't. It more or less pertains to the fact that Plagueis expected Maul to be far less impressive in the physicality department.

#84 Posted by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Do not use Wookieepdia. It is not a canon source. And don't use his fight against Vader, either.

No it is canon if they show a source. You can see the little numbers like that ; (4-1-3)

Maul, the Dathomirian[4]Zabrakmale[1] who would become the feared Darth Maul, was born on Iridonia[3

these shows they have source about that.

Also why not Vader vs. Maul ?, it is a great source for TPM Maul version.

#85 Posted by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: No, it isn't. It strives to be canon but there are always users who make up information, and sometimes make up sources. Of course there are admins, but those who make up information outnumber the admins.

Wookieepedia has never been recognized as a canon source, and does not fit into the canonical scheme. I know the information you just presented would be canon, but the only source you should be using are movies, novels, comics and sourcebooks. That's pretty much where the good part of Wookieepedia gets its information from, but as a source, Wookieepedia isn't canon.

And the Maul that fought Vader wasn't TPM Maul - it was a doppleganger that was arguably amped.

#87 Edited by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova

I use that for finding sources. I agree some lines are comment, but it is very useful.

And about Vader vs. Maul, dark side prophets didn't say anything about 'amped' or not. So you can think that it was 'amped', but i accepting that as a TPM Maul.

Plus here there is line about it ;

Saying that ;

It was a tragedy when Maul died at the hands of a jedi. Now he lives again.

#88 Posted by Reactor (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin would soundly defeat Darth Maul, no question in my mind about it

#89 Posted by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: I'm not trying to be offensive, but it seems like English isn't your main language.

In any case, in any story there are plenty of metaphorical/hyperbole/inaccurate suggestions, and that is one of them. Vader "willed" himself to life before, if you want to use that logic. We don't know which Maul was the one in Resurrection, since canonically the one that survived Naboo was the one in TCW, who got captured by Palpatine for unknown reasons. We have no reason to assume this doppleganger was TPM Maul. And I don't have Resurrection on me right now so I can't outright scan anything to prove that he was amped.

Anyways, Anakin has superior speed feats to Maul and they possess around the same amount of strength. I'll take Anakin as the victor.

#90 Edited by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@erkan12: I'm not trying to be offensive, but it seems like English isn't your main language.

In any case, in any story there are plenty of metaphorical/hyperbole/inaccurate suggestions, and that is one of them. Vader "willed" himself to life before, if you want to use that logic. We don't know which Maul was the one in Resurrection, since canonically the one that survived Naboo was the one in TCW, who got captured by Palpatine for unknown reasons. We have no reason to assume this doppleganger was TPM Maul. And I don't have Resurrection on me right now so I can't outright scan anything to prove that he was amped.

Anyways, Anakin has superior speed feats to Maul and they possess around the same amount of strength. I'll take Anakin as the victor.

Which Anakin ? If you are talking about Episode II Anakin, i would never accept that possibility. But Episode III Anakin maybe.

About resurrection, i upload full comic on that video ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkHJgp56zbQ

You can read passages with stopping.

I'm thinking that TPM Maul, because when they wrote that comic, there was no CW revival Maul.

Plus, Maul wearing same clothes, same lightsaber, his face same as TPM. His skills same. He is using his athletic skills, and he is not using dun moch like CW revival Maul.

#91 Posted by KingAres109 (1334 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn Maul is funny...It seems like he have no respect for Vader..Calling him a Jedi and Skywalker..Lol..Ha!!

#92 Posted by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn Maul is funny...It seems like he have no respect for Vader..Calling him a Jedi and Skywalker..Lol..Ha!!

Is he wrong ? He turn to the lightside and killed the Emperor.

#93 Posted by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Maul has no speed feats matching this:

"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

...Anakin worked the two blades in perfect harmony, spinning them over and about with blinding speed and precision.

Source: Attack of the Clones

#94 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (26967 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Maul should take the majority here.

Online
#95 Posted by KingAres109 (1334 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: I never said he was.Just that he funny.But at that time their both Sith..

#96 Posted by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Maul has no speed feats matching this:

"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

...Anakin worked the two blades in perfect harmony, spinning them over and about with blinding speed and precision.

Source: Attack of the Clones

Maybe, but i highly doubt that Episode II Anakin would duel both Qui-Gon + Obi-Wan equally.

#97 Posted by Perethorn (3802 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Maul wins.

#98 Posted by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: What does that have to do with speed?

Maul won because of his exotic style and form, and because neither of his opponents were in his prime. Beyond that both his opponents suffered from fatigue as a result of their more physically demanding styles (Ataru). Maul managed to get Qui-Gon alone, and with a weak defense in his style, lack of potency in his prime and lack of space to support his form, Jinn didn't really stand a chance. Neither did Obi-Wan once his little amp went out.

#99 Posted by Erkan12 (3092 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: What does that have to do with speed?

Maul won because of his exotic style and form, and because neither of his opponents were in his prime. Beyond that both his opponents suffered from fatigue as a result of their more physically demanding styles (Ataru). Maul managed to get Qui-Gon alone, and with a weak defense in his style, lack of potency in his prime and lack of space to support his form, Jinn didn't really stand a chance. Neither did Obi-Wan once his little amp went out.

I agree they were not their prime. Though Obi-Wan was 25, he was using Ataru not Soresu-Ataru hybrid and Qui-Gon was 60.

But they were really good team. I believe that team work is important factor, in their duel you can see that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon using deception tactics against Maul ;

#100 Posted by ShootingNova (19093 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: How does that relate to anything? Their "teamwork" doesn't compensate for the fact that neither of them were in their prime. In fact, form-wise, they disadvantage each other, if anything.

Qui-Gon alone has sent strikes capable of staggering Maul, in spite of the latter's general superior strength and speed. Obi-Wan simply doesn't match up at this point, and is inferior to Anakin of AotC anyways.