Anakin & Asajj Ventress VS Darth Maul & Savage Opress

@shootingnova:

I understand the point being made here (referring to the TCW fight, no doubt) but what I've been trying to say is that this isn't a one-way edge. Savage being able to grab Ventress is great for him, but only worth mentioning when she's disarmed (like in that fight). Otherwise he risks losing his hand.

And she was disarmed as a result of fighting him. Having dual-blades and more space shouldn't really help her either. Dual blades give Ventress less strength to distribute to each arm, meaning a saber lock would be a terrible idea for her in most circumstances, forcing her to rely almost entirely on her agility and avoidance, and, Ventress's MO in duels is typically to bullrush her opponents with rapid strikes and acrobatics. When she attempts that against Savage (regardless of the location) it comes off like a fly trying to break through bazooka proof glass.

Both Ventress and Anakin still have a skill edge, though, which is the most important thing because landing a solid blow is an instant-win and can disregard the durability of the second team.

I agree Ventress has a skill edge over Savage, I just don't see it mattering more than Savage's edges. If she were a more conservative fighter who used her agility to look for gaps in an opponents defence, opposed to bullrushing them with acrobatics, rapid strikes, kicks, and on occasion mounting the opponent's back just to punch them, she may even take a majority over Savage, but she isn't, which is why I think he's a poor match up for her.

Her raw skill is also better. The fight area is relatively cramped, like on Florrum, where Savage really only made use of power once. So it's kind of even here. Pretty much all of these characters can get enraged, really. Savage can obtain edges once he's enraged but prior to that there's really no evident advantage that favors anybody here.

Savage getting enraged is more useful for him against Ventress than visa versa - he's already more powerful than her and a lot stronger physically. Ventress getting angry would serve to even the scales, whereas Savage getting angry means she's getting thrown about with TK or slammed several meters through the air by the sheer force of his strikes.

Not that either scenario is terribly likely, but it's worth mentioning at least.

I really don't see why emotional control gets brought up in Anakin-related fights. It goes both ways. It can hinder him (although honestly in this scenario it wouldn't, since he isn't fighting anybody who he was once friends with) or it could be a rather potent enhancement and fuel a dark usage of the Force.

Anakin's Force Rage is good for fights where him going tunnel-vision mode can't be exploited. But, put Maul in an environment like the Theed duel, and I can see him taking advantage of Anakin's "must destroy" game plan. Although I agree it would also serve to aid him.

Tactical awareness, as far as usefulness in duels, is honestly relatively even. It's about as negligible as Anakin's strength edge, which doesn't matter unless he's amped. Then Maul'll be sent packing :P

I wouldn't say it's negligible or that they're even. Strength is a passive edge which is pretty minor because Maul can compete there - I haven't seen anything from Anakin to suggest he's Maul's equal as a tactician, and at least tactical ingenuity can provide opportunities for advantage and victory in some scenarios. Minor strength edges don't.

On a more serious note, any of these characters can get enraged, so I'd say that emotional issues are best left alone.

I don't see any of them getting angry a majority of the time.

What are you talking about? Savage is nothing more than a mindless brute wielding a cudgel

@comicstooge: goddamnit

Savage would beat Asajj due to his style advantage over her, and if you think Savage is a mindless brute, then he has no business with beating council members Jedi Masters Adi Gallia and Plo Koon, and putting up a better fight than Kit Fisto against Darth Sidious. Savage would beat Asajj for a majority, in fact, he already beat her.

''Asajj Ventress, Savage's former ally turned bitter enemy, joined forces with Kenobi... But not even their combined might was enough to defeat the Brothers... Forcing Obi-Wan and Ventress to make a narrow escape.''

--- The Sith Hunters

As for Anakin vs. TCW Darth Maul, it is a good duel in terms of sabers, but Darth Maul would take it with his Force advantage, I see the Brothers winning this in a good fight.

Are you insane?

@mije_101: No, are you ?

Anakin has a weak Force defense, also stalemated with Obi-Wan in a Force contest, and I am not going to argue this again.

@erkan12: LOL

As for Ventress, she is at the same level with Kenobi and Anakin in terms of the Force, stalemated and pushed by Kenobi with the Force before.

She is vulnerable to Darth Maul's Force attacks as well.

Team 1.

And let the lowballing begin...

I lost it at Maul having the force advantage. Probably the single most biased individual I have ever seen post on CV when it comes to his favorite character.

Not lowballing, determining the hierarchy between combatants. Count Dooku and Darth Maul have better force defense and force command than Anakin / Obi-Wan / Asajj, which is very natural, since these are Dark Lords of the Sith, and they are more powerful Force users than these guys. You can't see the same weak Force defense from both Dooku and Darth Maul.

He_was_toying_with_him. Ugh, why do I even try....

@sxe619: Don't try, just provide a source.

http://www.starwars.com/video/wrath-of-the-sith

Dave Filoni : He (Savage Opress) puts up a better fight than Jedi Council did.

@erkan12: Yes, because Sidious was toying with Savage which is pretty much crystal clear if you have a logical mind; whereas Sidious was not toying with Fisto.

@sxe619: There is no logic in comparing these two duels if Sidious was toying with Savage, that would be meaningless and stupid to say ''He puts up a better fight'' ... Filoni was simply giving a credit to Savage.

@i_like_swords:

And she was disarmed as a result of fighting him. Having dual-blades and more space shouldn't really help her either. Dual blades give Ventress less strength to distribute to each arm, meaning a saber lock would be a terrible idea for her in most circumstances, forcing her to rely almost entirely on her agility and avoidance, and, Ventress's MO in duels is typically to bullrush her opponents with rapid strikes and acrobatics. When she attempts that against Savage (regardless of the location) it comes off like a fly trying to break through bazooka proof glass.

I've already said all this about how Savage has an edge in saberlocks and agility is one of Ventress's edge. She would get disarmed fighting him for some rounds, not all, and after she was disarmed Savage couldn't land a decisive blow.

Ventress doesn't always bullrush like Savage, she just engages them in duels.

I agree Ventress has a skill edge over Savage, I just don't see it mattering more than Savage's edges. If she were a more conservative fighter who used her agility to look for gaps in an opponents defence, opposed to bullrushing them with acrobatics, rapid strikes, kicks, and on occasion mounting the opponent's back just to punch them, she may even take a majority over Savage, but she isn't, which is why I think he's a poor match up for her.

She has done that. I doubt she would do all of this for a majority, but she has done this before and it could be an edge.

Savage getting enraged is more useful for him against Ventress than visa versa - he's already more powerful than her and a lot stronger physically. Ventress getting angry would serve to even the scales, whereas Savage getting angry means she's getting thrown about with TK or slammed several meters through the air by the sheer force of his strikes.

I already said Savage wins almost every time once enraged.

Ventress being enraged nearly evens the scales in physical/Force power, but her skill/agility etc. are still edges so she would have the edge.

Not that either scenario is terribly likely, but it's worth mentioning at least.

Any of these characters can get enraged, so it usually doesn't matter.

Anakin's Force Rage is good for fights where him going tunnel-vision mode can't be exploited. But, put Maul in an environment like the Theed duel, and I can see him taking advantage of Anakin's "must destroy" game plan. Although I agree it would also serve to aid him.

He can take advantage of it if he starts from a relatively decent distance. Once in the midst of a duel, though? He'll only be able to think about defending himself, not even counterattacking, let alone taking advantage of the opposition's mentality. Dooku has been decimated by two hits in TCW when Anakin was enraged, and in RotS, his defense simply caved in.

I wouldn't say it's negligible or that they're even. Strength is a passive edge which is pretty minor because Maul can compete there - I haven't seen anything from Anakin to suggest he's Maul's equal as a tactician, and at least tactical ingenuity can provide opportunities for advantage and victory in some scenarios. Minor strength edges don't.

Maul competing but not equaling in strength doesn't mean that Anakin has to be an equal as a tactician. Anakin has lead numerous assaults and planned attacks for fleets/armies, like Maul, and in RotS, he used various other forms to deceive Tyranus before utilizing his true form. There shouldn't be any real edge. Anakin can recognize things like Maul switching forms or trying to move the fight to a different location.

I don't see any of them getting angry a majority of the time.

Never said it was for a majority. I said they can all get angry, so we can just ignore that.

On a side note, that "weak Force defense" video is laughable. Anakin has weak Force defenses because when he's still recovering from being shocked by numerous electrostaffs, he gets thrown into a wall by one of the most powerful Force-sensitives in history? Anakin has a weak Force defense because The Sonof all people TK'ed him?

Also, to disprove that Savage putting up a better fight against the Council, it's heavily implied by Filoni that Palpatine was not unleashing himself fully in that fight and was intentionally restraining himself, since he makes reference to them not being able to compete with him and Sidious stomping them and finally going out at the end of the fight, and hence holding back in earlier portions of it:

(http://www.starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-five-part-2):

Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.

At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak. I love the part where Maul begs at the end, because that’s the thing about Sith. At the end of the day, if you break them…

From http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/05/star-wars-the-clone-wars-dave-filoni-talks-about-the-death-watchdarth-maul-arc-and-the-casualties-along-the-way?page=2:

It’s nice to see the villain of Star Wars really kick the butt of other villains you think are powerful, which helps establish Sidious as “Oh, yeah. This is why he is the Sith Lord.”

Yeah, I think that’s pretty literal at that point. I think that what you understand about Maul is that he is still not nearly as powerful as Sidious.

IGN: He really always does have the upper hand in that fight.

Filoni: And he's enjoying himself while he does it.

@shootingnova: I'm okay with most of what you said.

Maul competing but not equaling in strength doesn't mean that Anakin has to be an equal as a tactician. Anakin has lead numerous assaults and planned attacks for fleets/armies, like Maul, and in RotS, he used various other forms to deceive Tyranus before utilizing his true form. There shouldn't be any real edge. Anakin can recognize things like Maul switching forms or trying to move the fight to a different location.

I don't see why strength and tactics are in any way related to begin with.

Anakin leading military assaults isn't at all relevant to individual or small-group lightsaber combat.

In RotS him and Kenobi prepped for Dooku by pretending that they were using their old forms (or something along those lines), and then out of nowhere revealed themselves as Soresu/Djem So masters, catching him off-guard. Although TCW sort of retcons this, along with a lot of the dialogue and narrative in the RotS novelisation, but I digress. It isn't really a showing of tactical skill that I was getting at - using the environment, playing to the opponent's mentality ect, is Maul's speciality. He muddled the Kenobi/Jinn duo doing this, he backed Bondara into an inescapable position doing this, in TCW he goaded Kenobi into a rage which allowed him to be kicked around the environment and off the ledge ect.

For all Anakin's inherent aptitude for combat, he isn't anything special tactically. Maul is.

@i_like_swords:

1. They're not, I meant the actual edges are both negligible.

2. I was making comparisons to Maul, not this fight.

3. Which was pretty weird since Obi-Wan had gotten over Qui-Gon's death but whatever. Goading Anakin into rage won't be working wonders for Maul this time.

4. Yes, so? Maul has never faced Anakin before, so technically the same could be done here.

5. Anakin doesn't use people's mentality but he does use the environment. Although to be fair, TCW Maul is less tactical in his approaches than his TPM incarnation, as with all TCW characters, really.

And yeah, TCW retconned it by having Anakin fight Tyranus several times. That would just make it more of a feat, though.

@shootingnova: I don't see how Maul is any less of a tactician in TCW, or how tactical ability is negligible, but we can agree to disagree.

@i_like_swords: When has Maul ever made any extensive use of the environment in TCW that Anakin hasn't?

@shootingnova: Well for one, we don't even need to throw out Maul's tactical ability because there is no reason to assume that his TPM feats can't apply to his TCW iteration. Secondly, there's a quote on the Star Wars website stating that Maul is a "scheming mastermind", so take that for what you will. Then there are examples within TCW tie-in material where, across the board, Maul is portrayed as a genius, pretty much. Read Death Sentence and you'll see the scope of his tactical ability, and his ability to manipulate people's emotions. In TCW and related material Maul is portrayed as intelligent, scheming and manipulative throughout.

As for using the environment in-combat, I already mentioned his fight with Kenobi on the turtle tanker. The way he kicked him around the environment, off ledges ect, making full use of his legs, which was enhanced by the rage he induced in Kenobi, was a good showing of tactical skill. Admittedly there aren't too many examples to draw from outside of that (except for BFRing Grievous, I suppose), partly because he just hasn't been put in a situation that warrants that type of strategy.

Main point being- Maul's tactical ability isn't a negligible asset. It's not applicable 100% of the time, but acting like it's a non-factor in any kind of combat situation is just choosing to ignore an important character trait.

@i_like_swords:

1. We can assume that because his mentality has changed. His general tactics in fights are different, and he's more prone to just charging at enemies, more prone to using Dun Moch, etc.

2. I'm aware of his ability to manipulate emotions (and even thoughts) and he's intelligent, but I'm asking for fighting strategy.

3. His usage of legs isn't entirely applicable here, but I'm not sure how it's a showing of amazing tactical ability. He just kicked Obi-Wan around, and he landed in boxes, and eventually kicked Obi-Wan off a ledge. Which is great and all, but not exactly the type of strategy that Anakin can't replicate. The only thing in that fight which is impressive is his usage of Dun Moch.

If anything, even Obi-Wan made relative use of the environment as well (ie. Pushing/kicking Maul into boxes and taking the lightsaber, switching opponents with Ventress briefly to surprise the brothers). It's not above what Anakin has shown in terms of using the environment, such as hurling people into various parts of it or throwing parts of it at people. He's also utilized various different forms in fights, which is similar to Maul altering his strategy in TPM.

Regardless of whether Maul has an edge or not, I think it's safe to say that it won't matter very much. There's nothing he can do with the environment in this fight that Anakin can't adapt to, and his legs are different.

@shootingnova:

1. We can assume that because his mentality has changed. His general tactics in fights are different, and he's more prone to just charging at enemies, more prone to using Dun Moch, etc.

No, we can't. We can't assume anything, because that gets us nowhere other than where we want our own assumptions to take us. What we do know is that Maul either remained as smart as he was before, or got smarter.

2. I'm aware of his ability to manipulate emotions (and even thoughts) and he's intelligent, but I'm asking for fighting strategy.

You already know of every example I could bring up, because we've probably talked about this a million times - you think being smart isn't useful, I do.

3. His usage of legs isn't entirely applicable here, but I'm not sure how it's a showing of amazing tactical ability. He just kicked Obi-Wan around, and he landed in boxes, and eventually kicked Obi-Wan off a ledge. Which is great and all, but not exactly the type of strategy that Anakin can't replicate. The only thing in that fight which is impressive is his usage of Dun Moch.

I honestly, just, don't, care. He fought smart, I don't need to go into a step-by-step analysis just to prove that - go watch the fight.

If anything, even Obi-Wan made relative use of the environment as well (ie. Pushing/kicking Maul into boxes and taking the lightsaber, switching opponents with Ventress briefly to surprise the brothers).

That is completely irrelevant to Anakin, especially considering Obi-Wan is actually an expert in using the environment and unorthodox tactics. Anakin just attacks his opponents head-on. Which he's very good at, having said that.

t's not above what Anakin has shown in terms of using the environment, such as hurling people into various parts of it or throwing parts of it at people. He's also utilized various different forms in fights, which is similar to Maul altering his strategy in TPM.

Using a number of forms in a fight wasn't even what I was talking about. When I speak of tactics, I'm talking about things like what Plagueis did to get an edge over Venamis after he was losing. Nothing to do with lightsaber combat directly - using the environment, playing to an opponent's mentality, altering the location, ect......

Regardless of whether Maul has an edge or not, I think it's safe to say that it won't matter very much. There's nothing he can do with the environment in this fight that Anakin can't adapt to, and his legs are different.

Whatever, man. This discussion is tedious. It's not at all unreasonable to point out that one character who is plain as day, a smart fighter, is smart, and that this helps in a fight, whereas the other tends to operate with a very basic approach to combat.

I still disagree Ventress is inferior. Her dueling is agreeably on Obi Wan level, and her TK attacks and TK abuse are on par with Mauls. She could crush Savages heart in a few seconds like she did to the very uber powerful Master Fay. She has shown wih force alone to raise the dead, rip though meters of solid stones at the same time, and survive multi ton columns crushing her into a stone stair case only to have her body them TK through a solid wall. She took out a clone squad with TK alone if we go by Legends feats. Not seeing it.

@i_like_swords:

1. We know that he's smarter in general tactical ability, yes, but not in combat-applicable scenarios.

2/3. Whatever.

4. Okay. Switching forms in a fight is tactical, though.

Maul does have the edge in altering the location (Ventress has that edge over Savage too).

5. The environment given isn't particularly favorable to that. The only edge I can see for Maul is leaping up on the trains to try to make Anakin follow him to take advantage of heightened ground with a kick or something like Ventress did in Season 5. I suppose he could lead Anakin into the sheds as well, and that's really it.

I'm fine with the idea of the edge being present, but not that it would change the rate of wins for the two characters.

EDIT: I rewatched the fight with Palpatine and Maul manages to get Palpatine to jump up to avoid a leg sweep, and he follows by kicking Palpatine. Sure, Sidious was holding back, but it is a still a tactical display nonetheless. Honestly, the Palpatine fight is a better example of tactical ability than the Obi-Wan duel. Sidious is holding back, but the concepts that Maul employs are good enough.

Seriously? Ventress Crushing Savage's heart?

I'm thinking Anakin and Asajj can win this, but not easily. Out of all four, Savage is probably the last skilled and powerful, but not by a huge margin, so it'll be a close fight, but i reckon team 1 wins it.

I'm pretty sure Savage is more powerful than Ventress in the Force, or at least equally powerful.

@shootingnova:

EDIT: I rewatched the fight with Palpatine and Maul manages to get Palpatine to jump up to avoid a leg sweep, and he follows by kicking Palpatine. Sure, Sidious was holding back, but it is a still a tactical display nonetheless.

That's what I mean when I say he's smart. If I went and re-read/watched all of the material I have on him I could probably find dozens of examples of tactical ability, I just can't be bothered at this point.

I feel like, in general, people are dumbing Star Wars battles down to a set of statistics in order to determine the victor. All people seem to care about is -skill -power -physicals ect. People will bounce into a thread, say "X is more ___ than Y, and has more __ so he wins" and that will be that, unless someone else wants to chime in about why Y has more ___ than X. Debating is getting really overly simplified, from what I can see, and it sucks.

Savage is more powerful than Ventress.

And this is what I mean when it comes to dumbing battles down into simple statistics like "skill" and "power" as if that's all there is to it.

@i_like_swords: That's probably because this stuff isn't really noticeable at first, and even if it was, it's unlikely to be much of a difference to the generic "7-8/10" etc.

Anyways, I'm leaving the thread now. There's nothing good left to discuss.

Considering the intent and showing of power of Fay stated to Obi Wan, I can see his hart being crushed. Crushing a heart feat happen and I see no reason to discourse it, just shows how versatile and good in the dark side she is.

Savage destroyed Mandalorian Iron, which can tank repeated lightsaber strikes.

Ventress is less durable than Mandalorian Iron.

Savage shatters her into many pieces.

It is obvious that Savage has more power in the force than Ventress, he pushed T-6 Class Shuttle with the force which is better feat than anything Ventress did before, and she didn't crush Fay's heart, it was close but still she failed to do it.

I say Team 1 7/10,
Anakin can solo Maul and Savage. (1v1 that is)
Ventress is just under Maul.

@i_like_swords: I demand a CaV swords! XD

@killerwasp: orly? What kind?

There is no way Anakin can solo them, Anakin's feats are pretty much replicated by Savage Opress alone, which is beating Asajj Ventress and also disarming Count Dooku, not to mention Savage already matched with Anakin before without any trouble.

@erkan12: Clear your mind my young apprentice, I never said he could solo them at the same time. I said 1v1, which means Skywalker would beat Maul, and Savage, but together they would win.

@darthsamburger: Oh nice, at least you're not overrating him that high. And he isn't beating TCW Darth Maul, you can see my previous arguments here.

@i_like_swords: This one topic over these character... huehue XD

bump, still Anakin and Ventress.

Anakin tips it for his team.

Pretty much this.

Anakin is MVP

Team 2.