@theirishdoctor:
1) Possibly, but that doesn't mean that they can be actually hurt by them.
I said they were affected, not hurt. IIRC, there was an angel screaming in pain when Dean was arm-locking him, but I could be wrong.
2) Completely untrue. Not only were there no archangels during the Leviathan arc, Raphael having been killed by God-Cas recently before, but they were never even mentioned in conjunction with Leviathans. While it is certainly possible, any actual assumptions are nothing but conjecture.
Not even close. Castiel clearly stated that the reason God kept them in Purgatory was because they were the "piranhas that would eat the whole aquarium". That clearly makes it a possibility that Leviathans could overcome Archanagels, which is why I said it was implicit only and not explicit.
3) Gabriel is that good, and Lucifer claims to have taught him everything that he knows, which means that although Lucifer preferred to get down and dirty with his fists, he also had that level of reality warping, or higher. Gabriel being still alive is debatable, since even during the season 9 episode, they questioned whether it was really him or not (and his allying with Metatron seemed highly out of character).
Setting aside the dubiousness of whether it was Gabriel or an illusion by Metatron (however, there may be reason for Gabriel to be asking Castiel to hear Metatron out and he displayed some characteristics, so I can make an argument for both sides), Lucifer claimed that he knew everything Gabriel did, but then, Lucifer was locked away for millennia, whereas Gabriel had utter freedom in that time, which makes it very plausible that he could've learnt knew tricks.
4) Mercury's speed dwarfed anything in the movies by a large margin, so you have to go to EU to make any claims that anyone might be faster, and the EU is highly inconsistent. Anakin is hypersonic, but he is matched by Obi-Wan who in turn fought Jango-Fett, Cad Bane, and other regular human level beings on an even footing? Odd. Leia ran several kilometers in a few seconds, but in several situations where this would be useful, is vastly too slow. Grandmaster Luke stalemates Darth Caedeus, but after getting humiliated by and then training with Boba Fett and the Mandalorians, Jaina can beat Caedeus? Mace and Palpatine can make glowing balls of fire with their lightsabers because they are so fast, which sounds great until you realize that the physical nature of lightsabers means that you would only have to go marginally faster than human speed to do this.
Of course I'm going to the EU, which from previous experience, is the version used by the OP.
No, it's not inconsistent. Anakin is inconsistent because of TCW, which only served to ruin so much writing in the EU and force the split between canon and "legends". Outside of that, Anakin is perfectly consistent, and so is Obi-Wan. Jango was far too slow to compete with Obi-Wan as per the AotC novel, surviving only because his armor was impervious to Kenobi's melee strikes and because Boba helped him.
Cad Bane is ridiculous. At some times, he competes with Obi-Wan and Quinlan Vos, and yet at others, an unarmed Ahsoka can stomp him casually? The EU is the only inconsistent source.
Luke never stalemated Caedus, and Legacy era Luke is ludicrously inconsistent, as with Caedus, which is why Troy Denning and Karen Traviss are the worst SW EU writers ever, as their writing, like TCW, contradicts all of the otherwise perfectly consistent EU writing. This is not applicable to other iterations of EU Luke, except if he is holding back.
Leia was never vastly too slow, and this was Leia whilst she was enhanced by Force Harmony with both Luke and her unborn child Anakin Solo. Once she became a Jedi, her speed levels were fine.
I don't even know what you mean with the last example.
You mention that Sidious could strike Lucifer hundereds of thousands of times a second and...no. Just no. Not even close. There might be some EU authors who get over their head and write it like this, but the general, more consistent way that things are done is that skilled enough regular humanoids can still go toe to toe with masters and grandmasters. While I am willing to accept that Sidious is the most powerful Sith of all time, that would mean that he is at least 10s of thousands of times faster than even grandmasters like Satele Shan, and that is just rediculous.
Oh, I think it's quite close.
Do you even read the EU? Palpatine is perfectly consistent in the EU. He is regularly shown to be faster than hypersonic characters can see unless he is holding back. Your examples of inconsistency were all of sources that didn't even include Palpatine fighting, and they were either all from TCW, the Legacy era, or TOR/TFU, which are all the most ludicrously inconsistent sources in SW history.
What does being a grandmaster have to do with anything? Why people continuously throw the titles around as if they meant anything in respects to power is beyond me.
No, he isn't tens of thousands of times faster than Satele, and he doesn't need to be.
5) The level of spirit manipulation between Lucifer and Palps is not arguable. Lucifer blows him out of the water. Palpatine can open holes in spacetime by willpower? Archangels can do it on a whim. Reletively weak demons like Crowley can manipulate hundreds of Souls effortlessly, and even a low level angel like Castiel absorbed all the souls of Purgatory into his body (and only lost it because he absorbed the Leviathans as well, not knowing about their existence). Supernatural smites and obliterates souls and spirits and essences all the time. Demons are often smited by angels, apparently leaving nothing left of them, not even an essence, to return to hell. So yes, Palpatine's essence could be destroyed, because Supernatural beings have the power to do that, if their own spirit power is great enough. Lucifer couldn't even be killed by the Colt, which was a supernatural artifact which was stated to be able to kill any being, no matter what they were or how powerful they might be, and said he was one of only 5 beings in all of creation that could survive it. His spirit power is off the charts. Palpatine wouldn't be an issue.
LOL. Palpatine opens them effortlessly with mere willful inclinations, whereas archangels require active gestures.
Palpatine has manipulated Sith spirits as well.
Castiel absorbing the souls of Purgatory is irrelevant because the nature of the Supernatural soul is not compatible with the type of essence which Palpatine is. Death himself conceded that he could not break a soul, only torture one.
No, he won't be destroyed, because he can just come back as he did in DE. He escaped Chaos itself by virtue of sheer willpower, which you seem to be intent on ignoring, whereas your example for Lucifer has nothing to do with spiritual willpower, and you clearly brought that up because Lucifer's actual possessive willpower feats are absolutely abysmal. Angels and even archangels require human permission to take over their bodies, including Lucifer, and Lucifer lost control over Sam when he looked at Sam's toys and had flashbacks of Sam's happy memories. Palpatine defying and escaping Chaos (which is practically oblivion) by virtue of sheer willpower infinitely transcends any of that.
1) Lucifer also has TK. Heck, extremely low level demons have TK. Of course, I will say that high end Jedi and Sith TK seems to be more powerful, so I'll give you that. More important, the angel blades are never seen on the angels except when in use, which implies that they exist in a sort of hammer-space until they are brought out. Palps can't TK something that isn't even there.
If Dean can just grab an angel blade and stab him with it, then yes, Palpatine can do the same.
3) Micheal has been shown to reconstruct himself from nothing. Any time an angel doesn't heal an injury applied with some sort of magic "this is your weakness" item, it has been shown to be either because they are reduced in power in some other way, or they just aren't bothering because the damage to their vessel isn't impeding them in any way (the regen has generally been shown to be done actively rather than passively). There are no shown limits to it, so long as the being has not been weakened in some way.
No, he didn't. He was banished by Holy Fire and came back. Raphael's vessel was turned to salt and he could never reconstruct it, and had to inhabit another body, which he also couldn't reconstruct when it was destroyed. Lucifer couldn't repair the damage caused to his first vessel which was caused by being an imperfect vessel.
6) Yes they can. You're implying that Sidious is near-relativistic. He is at best hypersonic. Lucifer shouldn't have an issue with that.
LOL. Sidious moves faster than hypersonic characters can see, and he is only hypersonic? He is certainly near-relativistic, and the only people that perpetrate otherwise are the people who haven't even read the EU and pretend to know where all the inconsistencies lie and how they negate Palpatine's supposedly inconsistent high showings, and so on.
7) Sam is like the freaking Chosen one in that show. He does things that are totally impossible all the time. Dean as well, to a lesser extent. Also, since we never really were shown what happened here, speculation is useless. Did Sam wrestle control back from Lucifer? Did Lucifer let him, having a momentary change of heart (since it seemed he DID have some level of compassion)? Did Lucifer just totally bail on everything and decide to end it all by dragging Micheal into the cage with him (this is a major theory since it explains how Sam was able to drag Micheal down with him when that should have been impossible)? Did God or the revived and rejuvenated Cas intervene and allow Sam to come back? Or could Sam just do this because he was Sam and no other reason?
PIS might be a permissible argument, but it hardly invalidates the other low showings angels have and their inconsistency.
My point is, this feat is so vague and we really have no idea what happened, that using it to say that Lucifer's willpower is below that of Palps is really not fair. If we had more information and could quantify it, then sure, but we can't.
Even if we can't use this, the fact that angels require a human's voluntary permission to possess them shows inferiority to Palpatine's willpower.
I reiterate. You have mentioned no-limit fallacies, but fail to account for the fact that the Supernatural universe runs on no-limit fallacies. It is intentional and built into that universe. If a being is stated to be invulnerable except for "xiitem in y-situation", then it doesn't matter if you shove a grapefruit sized piece of anti-matter down their gullet and then have the combined force of SSJG Goku, All-Star Superman, and everything else you can think of at them, they are invulnerable except for that situation (and beings who have higher spirit power, and/or are older in the realm of creation).
Supernatural doesn't run on no-limit fallacies at all. It's merely inconsistent (and to a ludicrous extent at times)
Nothing Palpatine could do can harm Lucifer, and Lucifer can destroy Palps, body and essence both, with a snap of his fingers. Is Palpatine faster? Does he have better reflexes and combat speed? Yes, absolutely. But who cares when even if he reduces Lucifer's vessel to atoms, he can still just instantly reappear?
Lucifer bled because of a bullet, so yes, Palpatine can hurt him, and Lucifer has no means of permanently putting down Palpatine's essence. And Palpatine has ample time to kill him before he can react.
LOL @ him instantly reappearing. Michael only reappeared because he was only banished, not killed. In every instance where an archangel was killed (Raphael's two deaths, Gabriel's supposed death if we take the Season 9 one as an illusion), he has never returned.
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