Alucard & Lucifer VS Darth Sidious & Vader

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Pope052

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#1  Edited By Pope052

Alucard Hellsing & Archangel Lucifer

No Caption Provided

Darth Sidious & Darth Vader

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Round #1

  • Starting Distance - 10 Meters Apart.
  • Pre-Schrodinger Alucard, Lucifer as Nick, Peak Movie Palpatine/Vader.
  • Alucard only has access to powers shown up to the fight with Luke Valentine.
  • Team Two are performing seriously, Team One are taking it easy.
  • The battlefield is destructible and may be used to an advantage.
  • Alucard's lives are limited to five, although he still has regeneration and is aware of these stipulations.
  • Everyone only has their standard equipment.
  • No prep, Team Two has basic knowledge on Team One.
  • Win by any means necessary.

Initial Locale - The Death Star

No Caption Provided

Round #2

  • Starting Distance - 25 Meters Apart.
  • Pre-Schrodinger Alucard, Lucifer as Nick, EU Sidious/Vader.
  • Each team has access to all of their demonstrated powers.
  • Both sides are fighting completely seriously and focused.
  • The battlefield is destructible, but may not be utilized to advantage.
  • Alucard's lives are all regained, Team Two are unaware of how many he has but have unlimited stamina themselves.
  • Sidious/Vader also have a back up lightsaber, Alucard also has Dandy Man's cards and Winkle's Bullets, Lucifer also gets a standard Angel Blade.
  • Fifteen minutes each to study their opponent's wiki pages, as well as knowledge from the previous round.
  • Win by Death, KO or Incapacitation.

Initial Locale - The Vatican

No Caption Provided

Round #3

  • Starting Distance - 200 Meters Apart.
  • Pre-Schrodinger Alucard, Lucifer is Sam, amalgam of all versions of Sidious/Vader - ignoring any contradictions.
  • Both teams have access to every one of their abilities.
  • Regardless of the inside/outside of a fight context, absolutely all powers/feats can be considered.
  • Both teams are moral less, performing out of character, and blood-lusted - but still sustain their intelligence.
  • The battlefield is entirely indestructible.
  • Archangel Gabriel is aiding Team One, Darth Maul is aiding Team Two.
  • They're given the same equipment akin to the second round.
  • Both teams possess complete knowledge on one another, but get no prep.
  • Win by Death, or KO only.

Initial Locale

No Caption Provided

Hopefully, this turns out to be good :P

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Mortal

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Team 1, spite.

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Jmarshmallow

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Interesting battle lol.

IMO, Alucard and Lucifer stomp every Round, with the only one that's even semi-arguable being Round 2.

Jmarshmallow

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Pope052

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Interesting battle lol.

IMO, Alucard and Lucifer stomp every Round, with the only one that's even semi-arguable being Round 2.

Jmarshmallow

How so? From what i've heard the Star Wars team should at least give them a run for their money, perhaps we'll get a few experts in here:

@shootingnova@dccomicsrule2011@i_like_swords@jedixman

Although if it's still that much of a stomp, i'll be inclined to change up some conditions.

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primebonnick

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lucifer snaps his fingers and kills vader and sidious.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@pope052: Top-tier Star Wars isn't really my debating ring, I'm afraid.

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ShootingNova

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Don't know about Alucard, but technically, Lucifer would solo stomp, but based on feats, then he wouldn't. On the basis of feats-only, then he has no way of stopping Palpatine's Essence Transfer, and Palpatine could just Wormhole the planet or attack him with other powers ie. TP, Lightning, Drain, etc.

By implication, Lucifer is immune to practically all of that, but based on feats, he has no defense against any of that.

That, and by feats, he can't even react to Palpatine, who could just as easily TK Lucifer's Archangel Blade to him and then stab him with it.

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Jmarshmallow

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#8  Edited By Jmarshmallow

@pope052 said:
@jmarshmallow said:

Interesting battle lol.

IMO, Alucard and Lucifer stomp every Round, with the only one that's even semi-arguable being Round 2.

Jmarshmallow

How so? From what i've heard the Star Wars team should at least give them a run for their money, perhaps we'll get a few experts in here:

@shootingnova@dccomicsrule2011@i_like_swords@jedixman

Although if it's still that much of a stomp, i'll be inclined to change up some conditions.

Lucifer in theory should snap his fingers and those guys should be dead.

Even at their most powerful, their durability shouldn't be on par with Castiel, an Angel.

And this is what SamLucifer did to Castiel:

No Caption Provided

And that's without even including Alucard, who is literally unkillable Post-Schrodinger.

I don't see how this isn't a mismatch, but I'll wait for some experts.

Jmarshmallow

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ShootingNova

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@jmarshmallow: Castiel has no durability feats that even compare to EU Palpatine or Vader's, and Lucifer has no reactive speed feats to allow him to react to Palpatine, who has fought faster than multiple hypersonic Jedi and Sith can see.

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Jmarshmallow

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@jmarshmallow: Castiel has no durability feats that even compare to EU Palpatine or Vader's, and Lucifer has no reactive speed feats to allow him to react to Palpatine, who has fought faster than multiple hypersonic Jedi and Sith can see.

Angels can't be killed by anything other then Angel Blades, Holy Fire, a stronger angel, Death, God, and Leviathans. So neither Vader nor Sidious would be able to hurt Castiel, let alone Lucifer.

And Archangels can control time and reality warp, not to mention instantaneous teleportation.

Jmarshmallow

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ShootingNova

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#11  Edited By ShootingNova

@jmarshmallow: That's what's claimed, but they have consistently been hit and affected by humans just striking them. Clearly their weakness is just to superior strength.

And none of those are durability feats.

Demons have also killed angels before by overwhelming them with sheer numbers. Even Bobby shooting Lucifer with a gun twice managed to open wounds in Lucifer's body (and that was with his true vessel), only that it didn't kill him. And you missed other things such as Eve, Abaddon and Cain, types of monsters, and pagan deities.

That's really just a No Limits fallacy. They keep adding things that angels are weak to, and Palpatine and Vader could just take their blades with TK and stab them before they can react. That, and they are certainly not going to resist Wormholes that tear the surface of worlds off and rip holes in space-time.

"Instantaneous" is a very broad term. Once their wings actually flap, then I agree that it's extremely fast, but the actual act of doing so or preparing to do so seems to take time, and they have no reaction speed feats.

And even if Lucifer blows Palpatine up, he has no way of overpowering or countering Palpatine's Essence Transfer.

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Pope052

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@jmarshmallow:

Castiel was utterly powerless in that instance, so it's not necessarily applicable to characters with much higher durability - and I removed Post Schrodinger shortly afterwards as I realized how much of a stomp that'd be among everything else on his and Lucifer's part.

Other than that, as far as I know both teams are capable of harming one another.

Don't know about Alucard, but technically, Lucifer would solo stomp, but based on feats, then he wouldn't. On the basis of feats-only, then he has no way of stopping Palpatine's Essence Transfer, and Palpatine could just Wormhole the planet or attack him with other powers ie. TP, Lightning, Drain, etc.

By implication, Lucifer is immune to practically all of that, but based on feats, he has no defense against any of that.

That, and by feats, he can't even react to Palpatine, who could just as easily TK Lucifer's Archangel Blade to him and then stab him with it.

Yeah i'd go with feats primarily, implications don't hold much baring since you can't clearly show it.

Alucard should be a decent opponent for Sidious I believe, he's roughly hyper sonic and has telekinesis, intangibility, dark energy/shadow manipulation, as well as his most formidable aspect being his higher level regeneration and countless lives thanks to his coffin's magic.

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NinjaWarrior268

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#13  Edited By NinjaWarrior268

Annie and Palps

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Jmarshmallow

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@shootingnova:

That's what's claimed, but they have consistently been hit and affected by humans just striking them.

Just by striking? When was this?!?!

Demons have also killed angels before by overwhelming them with sheer numbers.

Killed fodder, yes. But any angel worth his salt has never had any problem with any regular demons.

Even Bobby shooting Lucifer with a gun twice managed to open wounds in Lucifer's body (and that was with his true vessel), only that it didn't kill him.

I'm not saying that the lightsabers won't cut Lucifer. He'll just recover from it, like he does with every attack.

And you missed other things such as Eve, Abaddon and Cain, types of monsters, and pagan deities.

Fair enough, but you get the point. Besides, Lucifer has shown superiority to basically all of those beings.

That's really just a No Limits fallacy. They keep adding things that angels are weak to, and Palpatine and Vader could just take their blades with TK and stab them before they can react. That, and they are certainly not going to resist Wormholes that tear the surface of worlds off and rip holes in space-time.

Based off feats, no you're right they won't.

I'm basing it off of assumed power levels, statements, etc., which is basically what most characters in that show amount to. They're are very few concrete feats.

Hence why in my very first post I said "Lucifer in theory should snap his fingers and those guys should be dead."

"Instantaneous" is a very broad term. Once their wings actually flap, then I agree that it's extremely fast, but the actual act of doing so or preparing to do so seems to take time, and they have no reaction speed feats.

Sometimes they flap their wings for dramatic effect. Other times, a character will be looking at them and then the next second, poof, they disappear.

So as soon as the battle starts, Lucifer flies a safe distance away, and then snaps his fingers.

And even if Lucifer blows Palpatine up, he has no way of overpowering or countering Palpatine's Essence Transfer.

What does that do, exactly?

Jmarshmallow

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ShootingNova

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@pope052: Anakin was also hypersonic and he couldn't even see Sidious properly. Infinite lives would make it a stalemate with Palpatine's Essence Transfer, unless Palpatine possesses him, which I don't know if he could do, or if Palpatine BFRs him. I don't know how Drain would work against him.

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ShootingNova

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@jmarshmallow:

Just by striking? When was this?!?!

Humans have had physical fights with angels before. I don't have the exact episode's name, but as I recall, Dean has just pinned down an angel and stabbed him with his blade.

Killed fodder, yes. But any angel worth his salt has never had any problem with any regular demons.

Eh. Tessa is a Reaper, which is a type of angel, and she got possessed by Azazel. Castiel was also overpowered by Alastair.

And yes, I do know that neither of those are regular demons.

I'm not saying that the lightsabers won't cut Lucifer. He'll just recover from it, like he does with every attack.

Not sure if he can recover from getting lopped in half or sliced into countless pieces.

Fair enough, but you get the point. Besides, Lucifer has shown superiority to basically all of those beings.

Lucifer never showed superiority over Eve.

Based off feats, no you're right they won't.

I'm basing it off of assumed power levels, statements, etc., which is basically what most characters in that show amount to. They're are very few concrete feats.

Hence why in my very first post I said "Lucifer in theory should snap his fingers and those guys should be dead."

We're using concrete feats only as per the OP.

Sometimes they flap their wings for dramatic effect. Other times, a character will be looking at them and then the next second, poof, they disappear.

So as soon as the battle starts, Lucifer flies a safe distance away, and then snaps his fingers.

And a second is still far too long. Palpatine would strike Lucifer hundreds of thousands of times in a second.

Or rather, as soon as the battle starts, Palpatine stomps him via Drain, TK, TP, Storm, Lightning, etc. before he can respond.

What does that do, exactly?

Palpatine is mostly an energy being at his core, so Essence Transfer is just the epitome of that. He can possess others and he's just an essence. As for how powerful his possession is or whether the others can vanquish this form, Palpatine has escaped Chaos by virtue of sheer willpower and caused rips in the fabric of space-time with mere inclinations.

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@shootingnova: Angels have also been shown to take blows from things a lot stronger than humans and not even have their bodies depressed. It is sort of inconsistent, but the general assumption is that they let humans strike them if they want to. Demons HAVE been shown to overwhelm Angels, but generally they are either insanely strong demons (like the knights of Hell or Lilith or some such) and relatively weak angels, or the angels were weakened in some way. And these are archangels, which is another thing entirely. Actually this is so inconsistent that fans often come up with wild theories to explain individual instances. Like when Sam seemed to regain control over his body with Lucifer, and grabbed Micheal and toss them both into the pit. How could Sam do this without Lucifer's strength, when it has been shown plenty of times that archangels can take extreme force and not be even slightly effected? There are probably a half dozen theories, but the point is, the show is horribly inconsistent.

Regular angels keep getting new weaknesses, but Archangels generally don't. So far, the only thing that has been shown to kill them are Death's scythe (stated), an archangel's blade, and Castiel after he absorbed all the souls of purgatory.

It might be a no limits fallacy, but that is sort of how that world works. You either have to have a higher amount of spirit energy than someone else, or you use a very specific method. Without either of those things, it doesn't matter if you are freaking Son Goku, you can't actually harm one of them. And as for wormholes and whatnot, Archangels also casually rewrite time and space on a whim. Gabriel has been shown to take this to insane levels and be a casual reality warper that would impress certain Marvel comic characters (not saying he's like Mad Jim Jaspers or anything, but he's still at least a decent one), and Lucifer ate him for breakfast. And as far as speed goes, Lucifer obliterated an entire legion of pagan gods, including Mercury, who was faster than anything we have seen in star wars, and that was in his Nick body.

You are correct, they have no or very little reaction speed feats, and indeed it is usually by surprising them that lesser beings with the right tools manage to kill them, but all of this is moot since neither Vader nor Palpatine have the means to kill them, at least not quickly.

And actually, I'd say that Lucifer (and Alucard too actually) is one of the few characters who DOES have a counter to Essence Transfer. Manipulating spirits and souls is something that is actually pretty low level stuff for Supernatural characters. Even low level demons can do it (although they usually need something to give backing to what they are doing, but more powerful entities like angels can do it much more on a whim). There is no way for Palpatine to posses Lucifer if that is what you are saying. Lucifer is already possessing another body, and I'm pretty sure that his influence over it is a lot stronger than what Palpatine can manage. Heck, what is going to happen to Palps if he tries to inhabit the same body as an archangel? Remember that Castiel, a low level angel comparitively, said that his true form is like a pillar of light and fire as tall as the Chrysler building. An archangel is going to be that times 10. Palps' spirit would probably be incinerated just trying to inhabit the same body.

And since I mentioned it earlier, Alucard absorbs the essence and spirit of everyone he kills, and subjugates it to his will, so I'd say he also has a pretty good counter to that.

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Jmarshmallow

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@shootingnova:

Humans have had physical fights with angels before. I don't have the exact episode's name, but as I recall, Dean has just pinned down an angel and stabbed him with his blade.

As I said before, you can kill an Angel with an Angel Blade, which is what Dean did. Sidious and Vader don't have that.

Eh. Tessa is a Reaper, which is a type of angel, and she got possessed by Azazel. Castiel was also overpowered by Alastair.

And yes, I do know that neither of those are regular demons.

The first instance was because a Deal was made, and it's a common theme that Deals basically transcend power levels.

The second instance is, as you mentioned, not a regular demon. And as I recall, Castiel fought Alastair later on after he escaped from Dean's torture.

Not sure if he can recover from getting lopped in half or sliced into countless pieces.

That's what is implied. But again, it's never happened because most of the time he snaps his finger and it's GG.

Lucifer never showed superiority over Eve.

".....basicallyall of those beings."

We're using concrete feats only as per the OP.

The OP also says

  • Regardless of the inside/outside of a fight context, absolutely all powers/feats can be considered.

Which would include statements, assumed power levels, etc.

And a second is still far too long. Palpatine would strike Lucifer hundreds of thousands of times in a second.

I didn't literally mean it takes a second lol.

And then the next at zeptosecond, poof, they disappear.

Better?

And yes, I know. They've never displayed that speed. But they were clearly meant to be instantaneous, not to mention the fact that they can control time.

Or rather, as soon as the battle starts, Palpatine stomps him via Drain, TK, TP, Storm, Lightning, etc. before he can respond.

Very possible. But Angels, especially Archangels, have quite a few hax abilities as well. Plus, they can control time. Let's not forget that.

Palpatine is mostly an energy being at his core, so Essence Transfer is just the epitome of that. He can possess others and he's just an essence. As for how powerful his possession is or whether the others can vanquish this form, Palpatine has escaped Chaos by virtue of sheer willpower and caused rips in the fabric of space-time with mere inclinations.

Fair enough. But I don't think he'd be able to posses one of the most powerful characters in the series, especially since he's known for essentially not having a corporeal form unless he finds a host.

Jmarshmallow

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ShootingNova

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@theirishdoctor:

1. When they get caught off guard, as they would here by team 2's vastly superior speed, then it appears that they can be physically affected by even human-level strength, which Palpatine and Vader vastly transcend.

2. Leviathans were implied to be able to kill them as well.

3. I know how good Gabriel is, although technically, he might have fooled Lucifer with his death as he did return in Season 9.

Mercury has only ran in blurs and ran/moved invisibly fast. EU Anakin is faster than that or at least as fast and he couldn't even see Palpatine, who moves at a respectable fraction of light speed. Leia has ran several kilometers in seconds, and she couldn't see Palpatine either.

4. Just having spirit manipulation is not enough. Even Palpatine had that power, and if Palpatine attempted to fight with Lucifer, then the victor is arguable. Palpatine escaped Chaos by virtue of sheer willpower and has opened holes in the fabric of space time with mere willful inclinations as Silver describes it, so no, he wouldn't "get incinerated" trying to inhabit the same body, and how would you incinerate an essence to begin with?

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ShootingNova

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@jmarshmallow:

1. They can take it from them via TK and kill them.

3. No, it's not implied. There's a limit to their regeneration.

5. He said all power and feats, not implications, especially since he then explicitly reworded it to tell us:

Yeah i'd go with feats primarily, implications don't hold much baring since you can't clearly show it.

6. They would need to react first to freeze time, and they can't react.

7. Lucifer lost control over Sam's body just by looking at Sam's toys and having flashbacks of Sam's memories. Palpatine defying and escaping Chaos by sheer willpower transcends any willpower-possession feat that Lucifer possesses.

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Jmarshmallow

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@shootingnova:

1. They can take it from them via TK and kill them.

Are they equipped with it in this battle? Because if so I'd agree.

3. No, it's not implied. There's a limit to their regeneration.

Not really, especially not Archangels.

5. He said all power and feats, not implications, especially since he then explicitly reworded it to tell us:

Yeah i'd go with feats primarily, implications don't hold much baring since you can't clearly show it.

Fair enough. Then a Supernatural character really shouldn't have been used in this battle.

6. They would need to react first to freeze time, and they can't react.

But if Palpatine doesn't kill him in that initial assault, and he gets even a second to stop time, then BAM, it's GG.

7. Lucifer lost control over Sam's body just by looking at Sam's toys and having flashbacks of Sam's memories. Palpatine defying and escaping Chaos by sheer willpower transcends any willpower-possession feat that Lucifer possesses.

Agreed, but you can't possess an Archangel, that's my point.

Jmarshmallow

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ShootingNova

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@jmarshmallow:

Of course they would have TK in this battle. If you meant Lucifer, he has his angel blade.

Actually, yes. Lucifer was bleeding after he was shot by an ordinary gun. Obviously it didn't kill him, but it clearly penetrated his skin and affected him. If ordinary bullets could do that, then a lightsaber would easily butcher them.

Of course Palpatine would kill him in his initial assault.

All he needs to do is flush Lucifer out of Sam's body.

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TheIrishDoctor

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@theirishdoctor:

1. When they get caught off guard, as they would here by team 2's vastly superior speed, then it appears that they can be physically affected by even human-level strength, which Palpatine and Vader vastly transcend.

2. Leviathans were implied to be able to kill them as well.

3. I know how good Gabriel is, although technically, he might have fooled Lucifer with his death as he did return in Season 9.

Mercury has only ran in blurs and ran/moved invisibly fast. EU Anakin is faster than that or at least as fast and he couldn't even see Palpatine, who moves at a respectable fraction of light speed. Leia has ran several kilometers in seconds, and she couldn't see Palpatine either.

4. Just having spirit manipulation is not enough. Even Palpatine had that power, and if Palpatine attempted to fight with Lucifer, then the victor is arguable. Palpatine escaped Chaos by virtue of sheer willpower and has opened holes in the fabric of space time with mere willful inclinations as Silver describes it, so no, he wouldn't "get incinerated" trying to inhabit the same body, and how would you incinerate an essence to begin with?

1) Possibly, but that doesn't mean that they can be actually hurt by them.

2) Completely untrue. Not only were there no archangels during the Leviathan arc, Raphael having been killed by God-Cas recently before, but they were never even mentioned in conjunction with Leviathans. While it is certainly possible, any actual assumptions are nothing but conjecture.

3) Gabriel is that good, and Lucifer claims to have taught him everything that he knows, which means that although Lucifer preferred to get down and dirty with his fists, he also had that level of reality warping, or higher. Gabriel being still alive is debatable, since even during the season 9 episode, they questioned whether it was really him or not (and his allying with Metatron seemed highly out of character).

4) Mercury's speed dwarfed anything in the movies by a large margin, so you have to go to EU to make any claims that anyone might be faster, and the EU is highly inconsistent. Anakin is hypersonic, but he is matched by Obi-Wan who in turn fought Jango-Fett, Cad Bane, and other regular human level beings on an even footing? Odd. Leia ran several kilometers in a few seconds, but in several situations where this would be useful, is vastly too slow. Grandmaster Luke stalemates Darth Caedeus, but after getting humiliated by and then training with Boba Fett and the Mandalorians, Jaina can beat Caedeus? Mace and Palpatine can make glowing balls of fire with their lightsabers because they are so fast, which sounds great until you realize that the physical nature of lightsabers means that you would only have to go marginally faster than human speed to do this.

You mention that Sidious could strike Lucifer hundereds of thousands of times a second and...no. Just no. Not even close. There might be some EU authors who get over their head and write it like this, but the general, more consistent way that things are done is that skilled enough regular humanoids can still go toe to toe with masters and grandmasters. While I am willing to accept that Sidious is the most powerful Sith of all time, that would mean that he is at least 10s of thousands of times faster than even grandmasters like Satele Shan, and that is just rediculous.

5) The level of spirit manipulation between Lucifer and Palps is not arguable. Lucifer blows him out of the water. Palpatine can open holes in spacetime by willpower? Archangels can do it on a whim. Reletively weak demons like Crowley can manipulate hundreds of Souls effortlessly, and even a low level angel like Castiel absorbed all the souls of Purgatory into his body (and only lost it because he absorbed the Leviathans as well, not knowing about their existence). Supernatural smites and obliterates souls and spirits and essences all the time. Demons are often smited by angels, apparently leaving nothing left of them, not even an essence, to return to hell. So yes, Palpatine's essence could be destroyed, because Supernatural beings have the power to do that, if their own spirit power is great enough. Lucifer couldn't even be killed by the Colt, which was a supernatural artifact which was stated to be able to kill any being, no matter what they were or how powerful they might be, and said he was one of only 5 beings in all of creation that could survive it. His spirit power is off the charts. Palpatine wouldn't be an issue.

@jmarshmallow:

1. They can take it from them via TK and kill them.

3. No, it's not implied. There's a limit to their regeneration.

5. He said all power and feats, not implications, especially since he then explicitly reworded it to tell us:

Yeah i'd go with feats primarily, implications don't hold much baring since you can't clearly show it.

6. They would need to react first to freeze time, and they can't react.

7. Lucifer lost control over Sam's body just by looking at Sam's toys and having flashbacks of Sam's memories. Palpatine defying and escaping Chaos by sheer willpower transcends any willpower-possession feat that Lucifer possesses.

1) Lucifer also has TK. Heck, extremely low level demons have TK. Of course, I will say that high end Jedi and Sith TK seems to be more powerful, so I'll give you that. More important, the angel blades are never seen on the angels except when in use, which implies that they exist in a sort of hammer-space until they are brought out. Palps can't TK something that isn't even there.

3) Micheal has been shown to reconstruct himself from nothing. Any time an angel doesn't heal an injury applied with some sort of magic "this is your weakness" item, it has been shown to be either because they are reduced in power in some other way, or they just aren't bothering because the damage to their vessel isn't impeding them in any way (the regen has generally been shown to be done actively rather than passively). There are no shown limits to it, so long as the being has not been weakened in some way.

6) Yes they can. You're implying that Sidious is near-relativistic. He is at best hypersonic. Lucifer shouldn't have an issue with that.

7) Sam is like the freaking Chosen one in that show. He does things that are totally impossible all the time. Dean as well, to a lesser extent. Also, since we never really were shown what happened here, speculation is useless. Did Sam wrestle control back from Lucifer? Did Lucifer let him, having a momentary change of heart (since it seemed he DID have some level of compassion)? Did Lucifer just totally bail on everything and decide to end it all by dragging Micheal into the cage with him (this is a major theory since it explains how Sam was able to drag Micheal down with him when that should have been impossible)? Did God or the revived and rejuvenated Cas intervene and allow Sam to come back? Or could Sam just do this because he was Sam and no other reason?

My point is, this feat is so vague and we really have no idea what happened, that using it to say that Lucifer's willpower is below that of Palps is really not fair. If we had more information and could quantify it, then sure, but we can't.

I reiterate. You have mentioned no-limit fallacies, but fail to account for the fact that the Supernatural universe runs on no-limit fallacies. It is intentional and built into that universe. If a being is stated to be invulnerable except for "xiitem in y-situation", then it doesn't matter if you shove a grapefruit sized piece of anti-matter down their gullet and then have the combined force of SSJG Goku, All-Star Superman, and everything else you can think of at them, they are invulnerable except for that situation (and beings who have higher spirit power, and/or are older in the realm of creation).

Nothing Palpatine could do can harm Lucifer, and Lucifer can destroy Palps, body and essence both, with a snap of his fingers. Is Palpatine faster? Does he have better reflexes and combat speed? Yes, absolutely. But who cares when even if he reduces Lucifer's vessel to atoms, he can still just instantly reappear?

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@theirishdoctor:

1) Possibly, but that doesn't mean that they can be actually hurt by them.

I said they were affected, not hurt. IIRC, there was an angel screaming in pain when Dean was arm-locking him, but I could be wrong.

2) Completely untrue. Not only were there no archangels during the Leviathan arc, Raphael having been killed by God-Cas recently before, but they were never even mentioned in conjunction with Leviathans. While it is certainly possible, any actual assumptions are nothing but conjecture.

Not even close. Castiel clearly stated that the reason God kept them in Purgatory was because they were the "piranhas that would eat the whole aquarium". That clearly makes it a possibility that Leviathans could overcome Archanagels, which is why I said it was implicit only and not explicit.

3) Gabriel is that good, and Lucifer claims to have taught him everything that he knows, which means that although Lucifer preferred to get down and dirty with his fists, he also had that level of reality warping, or higher. Gabriel being still alive is debatable, since even during the season 9 episode, they questioned whether it was really him or not (and his allying with Metatron seemed highly out of character).

Setting aside the dubiousness of whether it was Gabriel or an illusion by Metatron (however, there may be reason for Gabriel to be asking Castiel to hear Metatron out and he displayed some characteristics, so I can make an argument for both sides), Lucifer claimed that he knew everything Gabriel did, but then, Lucifer was locked away for millennia, whereas Gabriel had utter freedom in that time, which makes it very plausible that he could've learnt knew tricks.

4) Mercury's speed dwarfed anything in the movies by a large margin, so you have to go to EU to make any claims that anyone might be faster, and the EU is highly inconsistent. Anakin is hypersonic, but he is matched by Obi-Wan who in turn fought Jango-Fett, Cad Bane, and other regular human level beings on an even footing? Odd. Leia ran several kilometers in a few seconds, but in several situations where this would be useful, is vastly too slow. Grandmaster Luke stalemates Darth Caedeus, but after getting humiliated by and then training with Boba Fett and the Mandalorians, Jaina can beat Caedeus? Mace and Palpatine can make glowing balls of fire with their lightsabers because they are so fast, which sounds great until you realize that the physical nature of lightsabers means that you would only have to go marginally faster than human speed to do this.

Of course I'm going to the EU, which from previous experience, is the version used by the OP.

No, it's not inconsistent. Anakin is inconsistent because of TCW, which only served to ruin so much writing in the EU and force the split between canon and "legends". Outside of that, Anakin is perfectly consistent, and so is Obi-Wan. Jango was far too slow to compete with Obi-Wan as per the AotC novel, surviving only because his armor was impervious to Kenobi's melee strikes and because Boba helped him.

Cad Bane is ridiculous. At some times, he competes with Obi-Wan and Quinlan Vos, and yet at others, an unarmed Ahsoka can stomp him casually? The EU is the only inconsistent source.

Luke never stalemated Caedus, and Legacy era Luke is ludicrously inconsistent, as with Caedus, which is why Troy Denning and Karen Traviss are the worst SW EU writers ever, as their writing, like TCW, contradicts all of the otherwise perfectly consistent EU writing. This is not applicable to other iterations of EU Luke, except if he is holding back.

Leia was never vastly too slow, and this was Leia whilst she was enhanced by Force Harmony with both Luke and her unborn child Anakin Solo. Once she became a Jedi, her speed levels were fine.

I don't even know what you mean with the last example.

You mention that Sidious could strike Lucifer hundereds of thousands of times a second and...no. Just no. Not even close. There might be some EU authors who get over their head and write it like this, but the general, more consistent way that things are done is that skilled enough regular humanoids can still go toe to toe with masters and grandmasters. While I am willing to accept that Sidious is the most powerful Sith of all time, that would mean that he is at least 10s of thousands of times faster than even grandmasters like Satele Shan, and that is just rediculous.

Oh, I think it's quite close.

Do you even read the EU? Palpatine is perfectly consistent in the EU. He is regularly shown to be faster than hypersonic characters can see unless he is holding back. Your examples of inconsistency were all of sources that didn't even include Palpatine fighting, and they were either all from TCW, the Legacy era, or TOR/TFU, which are all the most ludicrously inconsistent sources in SW history.

What does being a grandmaster have to do with anything? Why people continuously throw the titles around as if they meant anything in respects to power is beyond me.

No, he isn't tens of thousands of times faster than Satele, and he doesn't need to be.

5) The level of spirit manipulation between Lucifer and Palps is not arguable. Lucifer blows him out of the water. Palpatine can open holes in spacetime by willpower? Archangels can do it on a whim. Reletively weak demons like Crowley can manipulate hundreds of Souls effortlessly, and even a low level angel like Castiel absorbed all the souls of Purgatory into his body (and only lost it because he absorbed the Leviathans as well, not knowing about their existence). Supernatural smites and obliterates souls and spirits and essences all the time. Demons are often smited by angels, apparently leaving nothing left of them, not even an essence, to return to hell. So yes, Palpatine's essence could be destroyed, because Supernatural beings have the power to do that, if their own spirit power is great enough. Lucifer couldn't even be killed by the Colt, which was a supernatural artifact which was stated to be able to kill any being, no matter what they were or how powerful they might be, and said he was one of only 5 beings in all of creation that could survive it. His spirit power is off the charts. Palpatine wouldn't be an issue.

LOL. Palpatine opens them effortlessly with mere willful inclinations, whereas archangels require active gestures.

Palpatine has manipulated Sith spirits as well.

Castiel absorbing the souls of Purgatory is irrelevant because the nature of the Supernatural soul is not compatible with the type of essence which Palpatine is. Death himself conceded that he could not break a soul, only torture one.

No, he won't be destroyed, because he can just come back as he did in DE. He escaped Chaos itself by virtue of sheer willpower, which you seem to be intent on ignoring, whereas your example for Lucifer has nothing to do with spiritual willpower, and you clearly brought that up because Lucifer's actual possessive willpower feats are absolutely abysmal. Angels and even archangels require human permission to take over their bodies, including Lucifer, and Lucifer lost control over Sam when he looked at Sam's toys and had flashbacks of Sam's happy memories. Palpatine defying and escaping Chaos (which is practically oblivion) by virtue of sheer willpower infinitely transcends any of that.

1) Lucifer also has TK. Heck, extremely low level demons have TK. Of course, I will say that high end Jedi and Sith TK seems to be more powerful, so I'll give you that. More important, the angel blades are never seen on the angels except when in use, which implies that they exist in a sort of hammer-space until they are brought out. Palps can't TK something that isn't even there.

If Dean can just grab an angel blade and stab him with it, then yes, Palpatine can do the same.

3) Micheal has been shown to reconstruct himself from nothing. Any time an angel doesn't heal an injury applied with some sort of magic "this is your weakness" item, it has been shown to be either because they are reduced in power in some other way, or they just aren't bothering because the damage to their vessel isn't impeding them in any way (the regen has generally been shown to be done actively rather than passively). There are no shown limits to it, so long as the being has not been weakened in some way.

No, he didn't. He was banished by Holy Fire and came back. Raphael's vessel was turned to salt and he could never reconstruct it, and had to inhabit another body, which he also couldn't reconstruct when it was destroyed. Lucifer couldn't repair the damage caused to his first vessel which was caused by being an imperfect vessel.

6) Yes they can. You're implying that Sidious is near-relativistic. He is at best hypersonic. Lucifer shouldn't have an issue with that.

LOL. Sidious moves faster than hypersonic characters can see, and he is only hypersonic? He is certainly near-relativistic, and the only people that perpetrate otherwise are the people who haven't even read the EU and pretend to know where all the inconsistencies lie and how they negate Palpatine's supposedly inconsistent high showings, and so on.

7) Sam is like the freaking Chosen one in that show. He does things that are totally impossible all the time. Dean as well, to a lesser extent. Also, since we never really were shown what happened here, speculation is useless. Did Sam wrestle control back from Lucifer? Did Lucifer let him, having a momentary change of heart (since it seemed he DID have some level of compassion)? Did Lucifer just totally bail on everything and decide to end it all by dragging Micheal into the cage with him (this is a major theory since it explains how Sam was able to drag Micheal down with him when that should have been impossible)? Did God or the revived and rejuvenated Cas intervene and allow Sam to come back? Or could Sam just do this because he was Sam and no other reason?

PIS might be a permissible argument, but it hardly invalidates the other low showings angels have and their inconsistency.

My point is, this feat is so vague and we really have no idea what happened, that using it to say that Lucifer's willpower is below that of Palps is really not fair. If we had more information and could quantify it, then sure, but we can't.

Even if we can't use this, the fact that angels require a human's voluntary permission to possess them shows inferiority to Palpatine's willpower.

I reiterate. You have mentioned no-limit fallacies, but fail to account for the fact that the Supernatural universe runs on no-limit fallacies. It is intentional and built into that universe. If a being is stated to be invulnerable except for "xiitem in y-situation", then it doesn't matter if you shove a grapefruit sized piece of anti-matter down their gullet and then have the combined force of SSJG Goku, All-Star Superman, and everything else you can think of at them, they are invulnerable except for that situation (and beings who have higher spirit power, and/or are older in the realm of creation).

Supernatural doesn't run on no-limit fallacies at all. It's merely inconsistent (and to a ludicrous extent at times)

Nothing Palpatine could do can harm Lucifer, and Lucifer can destroy Palps, body and essence both, with a snap of his fingers. Is Palpatine faster? Does he have better reflexes and combat speed? Yes, absolutely. But who cares when even if he reduces Lucifer's vessel to atoms, he can still just instantly reappear?

Lucifer bled because of a bullet, so yes, Palpatine can hurt him, and Lucifer has no means of permanently putting down Palpatine's essence. And Palpatine has ample time to kill him before he can react.

LOL @ him instantly reappearing. Michael only reappeared because he was only banished, not killed. In every instance where an archangel was killed (Raphael's two deaths, Gabriel's supposed death if we take the Season 9 one as an illusion), he has never returned.

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@pope052: Anakin was also hypersonic and he couldn't even see Sidious properly. Infinite lives would make it a stalemate with Palpatine's Essence Transfer, unless Palpatine possesses him, which I don't know if he could do, or if Palpatine BFRs him. I don't know how Drain would work against him.

Then Palpatine would have a strong edge in speed, but yes Alucard's lives should tighten the gap. He doesn't have an infinite number of lives though, only a good bit over three million which will still prove to be an issue for Palpatine in order to properly take him out.

I doubt Palpatine could possess Alucard directly, since it'd be among so many souls and the magic of his coffin protects them unless it's destroyed. BFR' should only apply to the first round but where is he meant to transport him to, exactly? Anyway, Alucard can disregard his physical form and use his blood hounds to indirectly tear Sidious apart - as well as use hypnosis or the magic cards/bullets.

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@pope052: Fair enough. As I said, I don't know anything on Alucard, although I believe JXM does.

Vader sounds outclassed.

I don't know what his blood hounds do or what his hypnosis or cards do, but Sidious could BFR him across planets.

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#28  Edited By Noone301994
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Don't remember the arm-lock part. Again, Supernatural is horribly inconsistant. Dean has also punched an angel in the face, the result being him hurting his hand while the angel looked bored.

Castiel doesn't know everything. In fact, the longer things go, the less he seems to really know anything about what is going on. The Leviathans didn't have a whole lot of power. Their big deal was that almost nothing could kill them, but as far as combat ability goes, regular angels were way above them. If God had wanted to get rid of them because they were too dangerous (completely against his character seen in the rest of the show), he would have just obliterated them all. There is no legit evidence that Leviathans either could or could not kill Archangels. It is a complete unknown. Given how unkillable Lucifer was against...everything, I'd say it more reasonable to assume they couldn't kill him either. The thing which was literally just a "this kills everything" button, didn't kill him.

The OP states three matches, the first of which specifies only the movies, which is why I noted that.

Nothing, at all, that I know of, implies that Anakin is hypersonic other than one throwaway line while he is piloting a Jedi starfighter that is completely inconsistent with every other time we have seen those fighters being piloted or any time we have seen them go up against other starfighters. It makes no sense, and would throw the entire movie and novelization of said movie out of whack. And speaking of discrepancies between the novel and movies, the movies clearly show Jango getting more than a couple good hits on Obi-Wan. They are pretty close to being evenly matched. True, Obi-wan seems to have more of the upper hand, but only slightly. And while the movie novelizations might be CLOSE to the same level of canon as the movies, the movies still take precedent only slightly.

You're right. Cad Bane is ridiculous. Or maybe just Ahsoka is. But since TCW is still part of the continuum, even more so than the further removed books which depict Sidious, they are still legitimate.

And here is where we get into the really vague stuff. Sidious moves "Too fast for hypersonic people to see". What does that mean? Do you have to be moving 10x faster than someone for them to not be able to see you? No, not at all. In fact, it is entirely dependent on how large the object is. When Anakin (Supposedly hypersonic) cannot see Sidious' attacks, he can still see Sidious himself, just not his strikes. What does that mean? It means that Sidious is only going marginally faster than Anakin. If we assume Anakin IS hypersonic (as inconsistent with every form of media which shows him other than that one throwaway line as this may be) then he can react to speeds of mach 5, or about 1710 meters per second. That's really good (and would also make it completely impossible for some of the things which happen in all the other media to happen, but I'll let this go now), but it means that Sidious doesn't have to be much faster to make him invisible to Anakin's eyes. As a frame of reference, a lot of regular humans can't see punches thrown from the fastest punching people on earth, and they aren't going more than twice as fast as a regular guy. Which at a VERY generious level, puts Sidious at 3420 meters per second (and in truth he doesn't even have to by anywhere near this speed to cause the effect of a regular hypersonic person to not be able to see him. And in truth, since it is the strikes of his lightsaber which are a lever at the end of a fulcrum, Sidious himself doesn't even have to be moving at anywhere close to this speed.

Now you say that Sidious can strike hudreds of thousands of times a second. Since the longest point of the arc of one of his strikes might be around 2 meters long, that would mean that the lightsaber (the part that Anakin couldn't perceive, remember) would have to be moving at 200,000 meters per second, assuming that he lost no speed at all when stopping the sword to swing again. So if Anakin is hypersonic, then Sidious is over 100 times faster than Anakin given your statement. WAAAAAAY more than what he would need to be to make the "can't see him" statement valid.

And even incredibly strong warrior Jedi like Satele Shan haven't been shown to be able to strike more than 10 times a second or so, this puts Palpatine at 10,000 times faster than her. Palpatine wouldn't even need to have an army to kill all the Jedi. He could just walk into the Jedi temple, dash through the whole thing, kill every single one of them, and Yoda wouldn't even have the time to register the first youngling's death before he was killed himself.

Then you say that Sidious is near-relativistic. Near relativistic physics occur at around 10% the speed of light, which is 299,792,458 m / s. So to be near relativistic, Sidious' speed would have to be about 30,000,000 meters per second. Assuming that his body could handle the stress of doing this, not only is he stronger than the Hulk, and faster than Quicksilver, but durable enough that Godzilla could step on him and he wouldn't feel it. How exactly did Vader kill him again? Or...grab him for that matter?

For the record, I am perfectly content with saying that TOR, and the Legacy eras, and all that, are messed up all to heck, but so are all the rest of the EU. This is bound to happen with a dozen or so major writers who all have their own mental images of what these characters' capacities are. But Lucas' vision is and has always been paramount, and how he wanted to depict his Jedi and his Sith in the prequels, when he wasn't limited by the times that the original 3 came out, should take precedent, especially when 90% of characters who are not named Palpatine, Luke, or have some variation of the last name Skywalker or Solo, are pretty much in line with this. And ESPECIALLY when these EU depictions of Super-Luke and Super-Palps started to be made in this manner before the prequels so no one really knew just how much the limitations of the original movies weakened the depictions.

But none of this matters because Palpatine STILL doesn't have any feasible way to kill Lucifer. Even if he could destroy Lucifer's vessel, that doesn't mean a darn thing because Lucifer isn't his vessel. Lucifer is a massive Eldrich Abomination made out of pure divine energy whose mere presence can kill non-divine beings. When a human looked at Castiel's true form via telepathic visions, her eyes were burned out of her sockets, and she wasn't even looking at the real thing, just a psychic vision. A human who glanced Zacharia's true form died from just looking at it, and again Lucifer is several degrees of power higher than that. And considering that Palpatine uses the force for telepathically seeing things that are not really there, just trying to sense Lucifer and what he is would probably either destroy or seriously maim Palpatine. Try using that speed blitz when your mind is on fire.

Either way, Lucifer's ilk still manipulates souls on a level that is far beyond what Sidious can do. Heck, Crowley manipulates souls on a level beyond what Sidious can do. Sidious crawled out of oblivion? Big whoop. Finding yourself in eternal nothingness and finding a way back to the physical world. Oblivion is literally just nothing compared to Hell which is eternal torment, torture, and pain, where there are gatekeepers which keep the realms separate it from the physical world so that people can't just force there way through. Getting out of Hell is significantly harder than getting out of a quasi-buddhist nirvana, and again regular angels, not even archangels, can walk in and pull out people, even those who are under special lock and key. If Lucifer wanted to send Palpatine to Hell and keep him there, he could.

And for the record, no Micheal's body was incinerated. Watch the scene again, you can clearly see him writhing in pain and his skin being burned off of his body.

Loading Video...

Looks like incineration to me. Other things, which banish angels, just cause them to disappear in a flash of light, not burn away like that. Then a couple minutes later, he is back, no prob. Not a scratch on him. Why did Lucifer not restore Nick's body as it began to deteriorate? Most likely, the nature of the damage, since Castiel has said that he sometimes can't heal things depending on the cause. They also make note that Lucifer was trying to repair the body and keep it alive as long as he could, but it was deteriorating faster than he could keep it alive. Or, just that since it wasn't hindering his strength he didn't care to restore it beyond that.

And as for Raphael, his first body was turned to salt by a weapon from heaven, so saying that it is a show of weakness that he couldn't restore it is not exactly fair. His second body was destroyed by Godstiel who killed Raphael along with the body, so of course he's not going to be able to fix it. So long as they don't die, angels have been shown to regenerate from complete disintegration. It just all depends on WHAT it is that destroyed the body.

And saying that Angels and Archangels have weak will because they can't possess someone without their consent is completely incorrect. They cannot possess someone without their consent because God decrees that they cannot. It's in the rule-books. That's like saying that the Genie from Aladdin is weak since he can't kill anyone, when this has nothing to do with his strength and everything to do with what the rules made by something more powerful than him say. It has ALSO been shown that once an angel DOES possess someone, pretty much nobody can fight it off. Jimmy Novak makes a note of it being like having your soul strapped to a shooting star flying through space, and outside of Sam, no one has ever even been able to have any effect on the angel using their body at all. And Sam has done this twince, once with Lucifer and once with Gadreel, further enforcing the idea that Sam is just special. And I still hold that Sam taking control back from Lucifer is really not very well understood and it could have been a dozen things, PIS being one of them.

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#30  Edited By Pope052

@pope052: Fair enough. As I said, I don't know anything on Alucard, although I believe JXM does.

Vader sounds outclassed.

I don't know what his blood hounds do or what his hypnosis or cards do, but Sidious could BFR him across planets.

  • The blood hounds are ethereal summonings which Alucard uses at Level One, they simply devour the opponent.
  • His hypnosis can make manipulate someone into doing his bidding, unless they've resistance.
  • The magic cards have the ability to cancel a healing factor, and they're strong enough to slice through buildings, tank shells, and create explosions.

A BFR' would work if Sidious speed-blitzes, but could also be countered by intangibility if Sidious decides not to do it right off the bat:

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@pope052: Sorry, I meant to ask how strong his hypnotic powers are.

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#32  Edited By Pope052

@shootingnova said:

@pope052: Sorry, I meant to ask how strong his hypnotic powers are.

Ah, they're honestly not too powerful - he made a suspicious hotel manager believe there was no problem, and used it against a regular soldier:

No Caption Provided

But even so, does Sidious have a hypnotic resistance?

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#33  Edited By ShootingNova

@pope052: He has TP resistance, at least. He was able to prevent Plagusis from probing his mind before he even had any training in the Force, and he similarly prevented the likes of Shaak Ti and Vima-Da Boda from probing his minds in later years.

And then of course he has his TP feats like brainwashing Jedi and mind controlling a planetary population of twenty billion, and repeatedly reading Maul and Vader's minds, implanting dreams into Maul's mind, manipulating Plagueis's mind for years, etc.

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@theirishdoctor: Dude, you seriously need to give this a break. Your walls of text about why it's so awful that EU Force Users are hypersonic+ are such an eye sore and none of what you say actually adds up. A lot of it just demonstrates a lack of knowledge on the source material you're citing, and you appeal to ignorance quite a bit.

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#35  Edited By ShootingNova

@theirishdoctor: You might want to have the courtesy of pressing the reply button if you want me to respond. Ignoring most of your comments because they're just rambling off-topic, but the idea that you're applying natural physics to a supernatural force is laughable. You don't need to bring up Hulk or Godzilla in a match between Palpatine and Lucifer, nor do you need to bring up your personally interpreted and made-up mathematics. None of the statistics which you made up are canonical in the slightest, so why you need to calculate how fast Palpatine moves in units and what not is totally beyond me.

Considering even Grievous could make twenty strikes a second, I think it's easily plausible Palpatine could make vastly more.

No, the EU is not "messed up with dozens of different writers' opinions". That really just shows how lacking you are in knowledge regarding the EU. There are many novel series between different writers that flow in perfectly good continuity. There's always exceptions, of course, I could just as easily bring up instances in Marvel and DC. Any fiction with multiple writers is bound to have discrepancies, but none of it really matters unless they're gaping power or plot or character inconsistencies like TOR and LotF and FotJ and TCW.

Palpatine not being able to permanently kill Lucifer might be the case with just his powers, though the inverse is true, but he can also TK Lucifer's Blade and kill him with that.

Michael's skin was burning off from the Holy Fire, and after a few seconds of slowly disintegrating, the rest of his body just vanished. Clearly it was a painful and agonizing form of banishment, not utter disintegration. More than that, Michael is heavily implied to be superior to Lucifer anyways and has already beaten him once. Again, Lucifer's body has been wounded by regular gun shots, only that, of course, as an archangel, it never did anything to him. However, the idea that Lucifer could simply regenerate instantly from multiple lightsaber slashes is just flat out wrong.

Also, LOL @ Hell > Chaos, especially if you claim that Hell > Oblivion. Oblivion is essentially nothingness itself, so how in the world does a place of consciousness and reality exceed that? Of course, Chaos and Oblivion are not one and the same, but they are comparable.

What's equally laughable is that you claimed Palpatine's mind would disintegrate from looking at Lucifer, yet you use examples of regular humans. Palpatine's mental capacity is tremendous and Lucifer has no TP feats to compare. Also, yet again, you display ignorance. Neither Palpatine nor any Force user uses telepathy to look at others through the Force, and looking at something through the Force is akin to astral vision, not the natural human vision which you keep bringing up.

As for the whole idea of Luke and Palpatine being overpowered, I did make a blog on Luke a while ago as a counterclaim, but really, I'm sick of this. The only people claiming Palpatine and Luke are overpowered or super or too much or whatever are people who haven't even read the source material, because anybody who is sufficiently informed on them knows that their EU incarnations are perfectly compatible with how they are described in the EU.

Just about everything you claimed for Lucifer thus far is reliant on no-limits fallacies, incorrect applications of powerscaling, and implications, and the OP has already ruled that all of that is null and void and declared feats are the only things that matter. Stop appealing to ignorance, and stop making up these stupid mathematical statistics to try and understand Sidious's speed level. All you need to know is that Palpatine is too fast for certain beings to see, and those beings are, in turn, faster than Lucifer can see.

I almost want to quit responding entirely after the few discussions we've had in threads. You consistently try to find ways around EU feats by noting irrelevant inconsistencies and making up all this other baloney. Evidently, you haven't even read enough on Palpatine to be judging how consistent his speed and power is and what not, yet you insist on passing judgement on how he'll fare against Lucifer? It's outrageous enough that you're trying to pass judgement without even reading up on the character, but you keep pretending to be an expert on him and then making up all these statistics which are just mortifyingly agonizing to read. When you finally read up on Palpatine and say something that even resembles canonical legitimacy, come back to me. Until then, I think I've had enough of this.

I would really respect your opinion if you really actually read the source material instead of just pretending you did, and if you actually posted something approaching canonical veracity. But at the moment, I really can't do much other than disagree. I'm sorry, but I absolutely despise making up false statistics and pretense. So as much as I'd like to get along with you and discuss this, I really can't. We just find ourselves on opposite sides, unfortunately, so we might as well agree to disagree. Goodbye.

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okayalright_44

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Team 1 Spite. Imma flag you now.

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TheIrishDoctor

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@shootingnova: I apologize for not hitting reply. I thought I did. And sure, I don't think we're really getting anywhere, so that's fine (I have read quite a few of the books, by the by, although not all of them).

Just, to try and really quick sum up my points without going into insane detail. I don't think that Lucifer can be killed by physical means. That has always been the implication of Supernatural that angels and the like are immune to such things. And I think that Supernatural beings, although much weaker in a lot of other respects, generally outpace Star Wars characters in spirit manip by a huge amount.

And I agree that EU Sidious is extremely fast, I just have issue with tens of thousands of strikes a second and phrases like near-relativistic. If Anakin is hypersonic (If), which is is 1700 m/s about, and near relativistic is 30 million m/s, then Sidious would be 20,000 times faster than Anakin, which just seems unbelievable to me. And if Grevious (with 4 lightsabers) can land 20 hits per second, his whole technique being based around speed since he has no other way to counter force powers, then Sidious (with 1) landing 10s of thousands a second is just strange. Which is why I say that Sidious is just higher end hypersonic, not near-relativistic.

But the end crux of my argument though is that I just don't think that Sidious can kill Lucifer. Even if he could destroy the body to the point where Lucifer couldn't bring it back, which I can't imagine (especially in round 3 where it is Sam's body), he still can't harm Lucifer's true form. And since we have seen that people glancing at the form of a lesser angel via psychic vision causes their eyes to burn out have to be rushed to the hospital, and Lucifer is going to be that times 10 at least, I can't see Sidious not being horribly damaged by looking at him (and yes, Sidious has amazing mental willpower and dominance, but to me that is qualitatively different than resisting divine fire, and the two can't be compared).

I interpret the Holy Fire thing differently than you. It was never shown to banish Angels (on the contrary, it prevents them from leaving at all), so it makes no sense for it to just send him away. We are never shown WHY Angels cannot touch it, and this is the only instance where they do. I see it as incinerating him, since it should prevent him from escaping, not banishing him, and we see him skin begin to burn off before he suddenly disappears. Micheal just restores the body after a couple minutes. And Lucifer is at least comparable to Micheal, if one is marginally stronger than the other, it isn't by enough to make a huge difference (I always assumed Lucifer was stronger but also more emotional and couldn't bring himself to really fight his brother).

So, I still believe that Sidious would lose to Lucifer (and Vader would lose to Alucard). Not because he is less powerful per say, but because he matches up very poorly against him.

Again, I'm sorry if I came across as arrogant. I have some very strong opinions on the Star Wars EU that are majorly different than most, which mostly all stem from the fact that I figure the way Lucas depicts his characters should be the determining factor, and the EU depiction is just so insanely different. But I should have more respect for the fact that the EU is it's own thing and has plenty of validity as well.

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ShootingNova

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@theirishdoctor: No, it's not strange, and here we go again with your insanely preposterous numbers and statistics.

They might outpace SW characters' spirit manipulation on a general level, but to suggest that Palpatine is anywhere near the general level in SW is laughable in of itself.

You never responded to how Palpatine could slay Lucifer with his own blade, and Lucifer's true form is not going to damage Sidious to that extent, at the very least. True forms have always been only really harmful to mortals, and other angels could look at each other's true form without issue. EU Palpatine is more of an energy being than a living being by the time of DE, and considering the fact that he can withstand and defy powers far more threatening than Lucifer's true form, then I find it extremely implausible for Lucifer to be inflicting any real damage to Palpatine, or at least, to Palpatine's essence.

Holy Fire is fatal to angels, but obviously Michael was powerful enough to prevent it from killing him. Angels have never restored their hosts after they were obliterated. And for good reason, because when the angel dies, it's not merely separation from the host - the angel's true form is also killed. Clearly Michael never died to begin with.

Clearly the OP was using EU versions, and if we use film versions only, it would be an utter mismatch, so we clearly the objective would be to prevent that. Now, whether this is still a mismatch or not is questionable, but based on feats only, and disregarding implications and powerscaling and no-limit fallacies, I think it's safe enough to place Sidious above Lucifer.

That, and Lucas contradicts himself regarding his views on the EU, and he has prefaced, edited and/or approved a number of EU sources ranging from Splinter of the Mind's Eye to the RotS novel to Shatterpoint.

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TheIrishDoctor

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@shootingnova: You said Sidious was near-relativistic, and that he could land 10s of thousands of strikes per second. All my preposterous numbers are trying to say is that, however fast he might be, there is no way that he can possibly be that fast. Could be be hypersonic or somewhat above? I have issues with that, but I could believe it, at least for EU Sidious. But not near-relativistic.

Anyways, I'm done. My points I think were made. I don't think Sidious can kill Lucifer, and I think that it would be not only possibly but pretty easy for Lucifer to obliterate Sidious' body and then toss his spirit in Hell (which I still hold is harder to get out of than a big plane of nothingness). You disagree. This really isn't a matter than can be argued beyond that really since so much of Supernatural is based on assumptions and power-scaling with little context outside of their own scale.

I will note that the OP specifically says that only round 3 uses Sidious with all of his power regardless of contradictions, and that round also has Gabriel on Lucifer's side.

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ShootingNova

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@theirishdoctor: No, your numbers were just made up. And if you want to get scientific with the numbers, hypersonic starts at about 1, 710 m/s, and I'm confident that Anakin is higher up compared to that, and again, Palpatine makes him seem to stand still.

I didn't notice the edit for the rounds, though. Which Gabriel is he referring to? The anime one, or the Supernatural one? In either case, it's extremely biased towards team 1 because either Gabriel would absolutely spaghettify Maul.

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TheIrishDoctor

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#41  Edited By TheIrishDoctor

@shootingnova: What numbers did I make up? Reletivistic physics occur at 10% of lightspeed, and lightspeed is a smidgen under 300 million m/s. Even if Anakin is at the tip top of hypersonic, which is only mach 10 or possibly up to mach 25 depending on how you define it (3,420 m/s to 8,465 m/s), that's still comparing numbers in the thousands to the tens of millions. What is made up in that? The only thing I will concede is made up are when I tried to make a general assumption about the length of an arc of his swing, which was really way too subjective which is why I let it go after one post. But the numbers I gave for speed aren't made up at all. And again, I'm not making a claim about Sidious' speed at all, just disputing that they are anything close to near-relativistic.

If you want to say that he is near-relativistic, that is fine, but that is your claim so the burden of proof is on you.

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NeonGameWave

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Team 1 all Rounds.

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ShootingNova

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@theirishdoctor: The numbers you gave were made up. You decided to pit Anakin at the lowest of hypersonic speeds for reasons only known to yourself, and then you rambled on.

If Palpatine being faster than hypersonic/high-hypersonic characters can even see does not place him at near-relativistic speeds, then I don't know what does.

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deactivated-57b54fc9eb0d8

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Team 1 by Lucifer's statements

Team 2 by feats.

Stalemate due to Sidious's Essence Transfer. Sidious warps Alucard away with Force Storm. Sidious and Luke can destroy Luicifer's vessel pretty easily, but can't destroy his spirit/soul. Team two can't kill Lucifer, and I don't think Sidious can possess Lucifer with Essence transfer. Lucifer explodes Team 2 with a finger snap. Sidious lives due to Essence Transfer, and can't take over Lucifer.

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ZiggyStardust

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#45  Edited By ZiggyStardust

@shootingnova said:

@theirishdoctor: The numbers you gave were made up. You decided to pit Anakin at the lowest of hypersonic speeds for reasons only known to yourself, and then you rambled on.

If Palpatine being faster than hypersonic/high-hypersonic characters can even see does not place him at near-relativistic speeds, then I don't know what does.

Oh my. Science is clearly not your friend ;-)

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AdamAnouer

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#46  Edited By AdamAnouer

@impure_world: So basically the fight ends with Lucifer and Palpatine as the new two Sith.

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deactivated-57b54fc9eb0d8

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@impure_world: So basically the fight ends with Lucifer and Palpatine as the new two Sith.

Haha probably.

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AdamAnouer

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MarvelDCnerdkng

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@deactivated-57b54fc9eb0d8: science does't work in front of entity of satan ,lol. Lucifer solos will torture these ridiculously outfitted overrated villains lol. Even magneto can beat vader by just removing his machine parts lol.

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Earendill

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Team 1 either solostomps. Spite.