Altair vs. Ezio (Assassins Creed battle)

Allow me to appeal to the audience for a moment.

All MisterGuyMan has done is show us what Altair has achieved. Nowhere in his rebuttals does he incorporate logic or apply those feats to the given circumstances. So in retrospect, MisterGuyMan really hasn't done anything to prove Altair wins. He's literally just wanked him off the entire time.

The part that is underlined and in bold is the important part. I factually proved what Altair has done in combat situations. You have failed to prove Ezio can accomplish anything on the level of Altair's best feats.

Altair can fight through two armies in open combat without getting damaged, 60+ enemies through multiple waves with 16 at max with the final battle against elite fully armed Templars to kill Robert de Sable, the Templar Grand master. The best quantifiable feat for Ezio is 12 cultists. Altair has never been captured, left for dead, required saving by his allies or been left fatally wounded. Ezio has.

It's that simple. Monsterstomp just dances around all these inconvenient facts, and they are facts, just because they are invonvenient. You can appeal to any audience you want. The facts literally remain exactly the same. Monsterstomp's arguments all hing on assumptions he can't prove. Ezio did this and that. Except you can't prove he did those things.

Let's talk about wanking. Monsterstomp, Remember when you argued how terrible Altair was when he was hurt in a non canon version of his Genghis Khan assassination? Then remember how you ignored how Ezio, during that same age was dying of old age? Yeap. Monsterstomp literally has to cite a noncanon 53 year old Altair AND has to ignore how Ezio is dying of old age to make what he considers a valid comparison. That's the blatant kinds of double standards he has to rely on just to make Altair look worse.

The part that is underlined and in bold is the important part.

Stopped reading when I saw this. Showcasing what someone has done is far from the most important part. Why? Because just about every fictional character is going to have different feats. The way you view those feats are subjective when applied to an actual hypothetical battle. Which is something you've failed to do or even grasp.

Sorry, mate. Come back when you learn how to apply those showings.

Let's go back to that great quote where Monsterstomp admits why those showings are relevant:

"Focus is obviously an essential skillset necessary in the art of combat"

Ironic how Monsterstomp has to literally ignore himself now because his own words point out how Ezio is worse than Altair in an "an essential skillset necessary in the art of combat"

Oh and literally nothing Monsterstomp has ever said has identified any feat for Ezio as being as good Altair's best feats. His response is his tacit concession that no such feat exists so he's going to try and shift to the burden of proof. So I proved Altair's feats (as just stated by Monsterstomp) and then instead of proving feats for Ezio Monsterstomp, two posts later tells me to prove the feats for Altair again... lol

... and you're recycling a statement I said, with no solid argument to prove how that applies to the given situation. How typical of you. Still not even attempting to apply showings/knowledge/logic. If anything ended the argument 2 months ago, its due to your inability to do exactly that.

"Focus is obviously an essential skillset necessary in the art of combat" and Altair and Ezio are in combat. Altair has never been captured, left for dead, required saving by his allies or been left fatally wounded from lack of focus or any other excuse. Ezio has been captured, left for dead, required saving by his allies and been left fatally wounded and, even without the focus argument, has been stabbed fatally even when he wasn't distracted (Orsi). On top of that we have Altair's ridiculous feats. Ezio, even with full focus, has never attained feats as good as Altair.

Now I wonder how you'll ignore all that.

You're doing it again.

You mean how I posted actual facts and feats for Altair and made valid comparisons with Ezio?

You're doing your thing again too. Your 'thing' being your pretending facts don't exist just because of your obvious Ezio bias. That's three posts in a row where you've ignored actual facts you quoted and went off into your ad hominem fallacy routine.

Comparing feats =/= applying feats. Nothing you said argues a case for Altair winning. You're simply showing his achievements to us.

Altair wins because his abilities in combat are better. They're better because his feats prove they're better.

You're all the way over here where you think it's ok to make excuses for fighters you like.

Altair in his prime > Ezio in his prime.

You're still using the "Altair has done things Ezio hasn't replicated, so he wins." argument. Its not even solid evidence that Altair is the better combatant. Why? Because just about every fictional character is going to have different feats. You're still not applying those feats, you're just showing them.

Please, for your sake, stop now.

We use feats on comicvine. I find it funny that you're implying that evidence is somehow a bad thing.

Altair has better feats. Ezio has different feats. So? Altair's feats are still better than Ezio's different feats. That's posts in a row where you've ignored actual evidence now btw. That really is your thing now.

Evidence isn't a bad thing. Its necessary, but alone it isn't soloing a debate. Apply logic, knowledge and showings to solidify it.

That's posts in a row where you've ignored actual evidence now btw.

Under the same token, that's several posts in a row you haven't even attempted to apply those showings. Literally, what's stopping you?

So are you claiming that you cant find any way to apply how Altair and Ezio have performed in actual combat to this hypothetical combat scenario?

Your complaint makes no sense honestly. They're applicable because they're combat feats and we're discussing who's better in combat.

I'm also going to point out the blatant hypocrisy of that stance. When it suited you, you painted Mario as this amazing agile fighter even though you failed to even find a single applicable example of his mobility in combat.

Your arbitrary demands illustrate your double standard further. So now I have to prove how Altair's combat feats are relevant to a fighting situation? If you want that standard then you're doing a good job of avoiding your own standard. So go ahead and prove how Ezio's feats are applicable and then show why Altair's feats are not. I want to see what justifications you come up with.

That's not my complaint. My goal is to try to get you to actually apply what Altair has done in combat to a hypothetical situation like this. Here, I'll give you an example:

Altair has never fought a skilled combatant, he has only fought quantities of fodder. Ezio, on the other hand, has fought and beaten combatants who've tested him in combat, his fighting style is also way more unorthodox, which begets the following: Altair has no armour, durability or pain tolerance showings to suggest he could outlast Ezio (who has armour and several showings of impressive pain tolerance) in combat. Thus, I have come to the conclusion that while it'll be an entertaining and brutal fight, Ezio wins by simply being more resilient.

1. Showings accounted for and compared.
2. Knowledge and logic applied.

This is how you debate. You can't simply say "Altair has better feats, he wins" without application.

Now you go.

you painted Mario as this amazing agile fighter even though you failed to even find a single applicable example of his mobility in combat.

I never said he was an amazing agile fighter. I said he was a credible fighter, and I proved it. You have no point with bringing mobility into this when you think parkour is full proof of somebody's ability to manoeuvre in combat. Moreover, when I flip the script applying your same exact logic against Altair, what do you do?

Next.

The point is that you think mentioning Mario's mobility on climbing and running out of combat is relevant as a combat feat but somehow Altair's actual combat feats need to be proven as relevant. So you think Mario's mobility would help against Moloch but cite mobility outside of actual combat. So explain this blatant double standard. Why can you cite noncombat feats as relevant to fighting buy somehow Altair's actual combat feats aren't?

I'm still waiting for your argument showing why all of Ezio's feats are allowed but somehow Altair's feats dont.

Your hypocrisy isnt even subtle at this point.

No, no, no. You were the one who thought Mario's freerunning achievements were points towards his mobility. I said Mario's combat knowledge and application was evident enough.

But nice dodging.

Can't believe I came out of retirement to hear the same old recycled and flawed arguments all over again.

Altair has never fought a skilled combatant, he has only fought quantities of fodder. Ezio, on the other hand, has fought and beaten combatants who've tested him in combat, his fighting style is also way more unorthodox, which begets the following: Altair has no armour, durability or pain tolerance showings to suggest he could outlast Ezio (who has armour and several showings of impressive pain tolerance) in combat. Thus, I have come to the conclusion that while it'll be an entertaining and brutal fight, Ezio wins by simply being more resilient.

http://postimg.org/image/89ic9mqk7/

http://postimg.org/image/468h87lyv/

So there's the argument. You claimed Mario could dodge Moloch's massive attacks. You cited Mario's out of combat freerunning feats. Now you're saying actual combat feats aren't applicable.

Again I made a claim when I said you're being hypocritical by citing noncombat feats as relevant to combat but then flip flop and are now saying that actual combat feats aren't relevant. Then I provided evidence.

I wonder how you'll dodge this time.

Lol I cant believe you came out of retirement only to corner yourself with this blatant hypocrisy.

Not sure why you're putting words in my mouth. I cited Mario's freerunning feats because YOU thought that his freerunning feats were full proof of his mobility in combat. The images you posted was part of the conversation we were having. He's you acknowledging that Mario's freerunning feats are proof of his mobility in combat.

You duck more than Floyd Mayweather.

That quote has me commending you for actually posting feats instead of avoiding it as per usual. He still doesn't free run in combat and that evidence still isnt very good.

So why are you allowed to cite Mario's out of combat mobility in a discussion on combat but Altair's actual combat feats are somehow not relevant?

I'll keep asking about this blatant hypocrisy just so you know.

I cited it because you thought it was valid.

All you've done since opening another can of worms is duck. Prove Altair wins. Do you seriously want to go back and forth like this again? We all know how this'll end up.

Ezio as he can kill Altair at range.

Hahaha no actually you were arguing that Mario's out of combat mobility was evidence hr could dodge attacks against Moloch in combat. That's YOUR out of combat evidence for in combat discussion. Read the pics. It spells it all out.

It's funny seeing you fail against your own hypocritical standards. I already proved Altair wins. The only reason you're still arguing is that you don't realize how hypocrital your standards are. This Mario thin literally shows you failing the standard with feats and relevancy you just asked me to meet.

Altair is the boss

No. You thought Mario's freerunning feats were proof of his mobility in combat. I initially brought up his combat knowledge and on-panel feats, which you dismissed at the drop of a hat. Then I brought up his freerunning showings and you said "At least you actually provided evidence this time.". If you can't get that from those images, you're clearly beneath my divine prowess. I can go back into retirement knowing I've claimed victory, yet again :)

Read it again. I asked for feats to prove your claim Mario can dodge Moloch. You respond with his freerunning. The pics literally spell it out.

You cited hlthe training montage too but that doesn't change the fact that you STILL cited noncombat feats too.

As per usual the hypocrite threatens to leave after having his double standards exposed. Lol

It's funny how after all this time you have still failed to show why all your Ezio feats count but Altair's feats don't. Must be those hypocrisy goggles making you only see what you want. Lol

"Ezio has better technology, but I think Altair is more stealthy, better strategist and fighter."

I'd bet on Altair

Nothing Ezio has done even comes close to Altair taking down several Master assassins in so high an age that he can't even run.

Altair takes this rather easily.

Lol I completely forgot about this. When I pointed out that Ezio was captured, left for dead and fatally stabbed a a few pages back, Monsterstomp replied that Altair was KOed by Mualim stabbing Altair. It's funny because he was literally citing an event where Altair was being publicly executed.

Lol so when Ezio gets captured in combat he can make excuses and ignore the failure. But when Altair gets stabbed as a punishment outside of combat, that's applicable. Oh and actual feats for Altair killing people in combat? They're not relevant either. Lol

That's literally how biased you have to be to try and make a case for Ezio apparently.

You should read the pictures again. This is the first and last time I'll spell this out for you.

_____________________________________________________________________

I said Mario > Moloch, and initially proved this stance by saying, and I quote:

He pretty much taught Ezio near everything about being an assassin. From the history books to swordplay. Not to forget about his own biography or the several combat instances that happened in What Goes Around.

Where in my initial argument does it say Mario can freerun so he's a mobile fighter? You can't see it because you didn't bring up mobility until now, and I quote:

No. Mario is not mobile nor has he shown any mobility.

I proceed to counter, and I quote:

Mario's not mobile? That's why he was able to train Ezio in full effectiveness in the art of swordplay (more namely, how to position himself in battle)... by standing like a robot?

You then respond by saying, and I quote:

Ezio was mobile before Mario. Mario in the memories actually does nothing to even imply he's a mobile fighter.

Then I counter by saying, and I quote:

Ezio was more mobile than Mario how? When Ezio first came to Monteriggioni, he was an amateur.

Then you respond, and I quote:

Just list Mario's mobility feats already. Ezio was climbing buildings with his brother before he ever trained under Mario.

Boom. See that underline? Implying that Ezio's freerunning capabilities are proof of his mobility in combat (considering that's what we were talking about). So I proceed to counter, and I quote:

This is literally the dumbest thing I've ever had to provide evidence for. Like Mario's teachings to Ezio about moving in combat doesn't matter whereas freerunning does? That makes no sense. Anyway, when Ezio and Mario escaped the Vatican, Mario was traversing buildings.

So I cite an example of Mario's freerunning anyway, because YOU thought that freerunning is proof of someone's mobility in combat. Then you said, and I quote:

At least you actually provided evidence this time.

Checkmate. You're either trolling or genuinely ignorant. You still haven't made a valid case for Altair winning since you kept ducking my attempts to get you to apply showings which is a fundamental part of a debate. Then you bring up Mario and put words in my mouth just to cover your failed attempts to both lowball Ezio and prove why Altair wins. Throw in a few condescending insults to show me how much salt is burning through your eyes and we've got another lacklustre debater on the Vine. Its quite petty, lol. Another thing I find silly is that we left the debate at a point where you simply couldn't contribute any more to the debate other than showcasing a demo of Altair's capabilities. Yet, you continue to recycle arguments from almost 2 months ago, which are just as irrelevant now.

@monsterstomp said:

Why are you talking about an earlier post? In your FOLLOWUP argument you tried pass off a noncombat feat as relevant to a combat situation. That's a fact:

I'm talking about THAT post RIGHT THERE. In THAT POST, and NOT YOUR PREVIOUS POST, you posted a noncombat feat. I asked for mobility feats. You respond by citing out of combat freerunning. So explain you obvious double standard. How are you allowed to post noncombat feats but somehow you can whine when actual combat feats are posted for Altair?

Do you think changing the subject to another post suddenly makes your hypocrisy in the post I highlighted disappear? Nope. You still tried to pass off a noncombat feat as relevant to combat and then flip flopped by claiming Altair's combat feats aren't relevant. I'll keep pointing this out until you address your hypocrisy in THAT post (the post in the picture).

Oh look at the hypocrisy on display here. First your earlier arguments are irrelevant. They're based on hearsay and assumptions. I kept asking for actual feats. All you could offer up were noncombat feats. Second whatever you said earlier doesn't change the fact that you ended up trying to use a noncombat feat as relevant to combat. According to your double standard, noncombat feats aren't relevant here. So that leaves you with nothing but your previous hearsay and baseless assumptions. I ask again: Why are you allowed to post noncombat feats as relevant but somehow all of Altair's combat feats are not? I put that question in bold so you answer it.

Oh and the best part is that you're still ignoring your even more blatant double standard. Here's the showing you tried to bring up against Altair:

Why did you think that Altair getting stabbed by Mualim during an execution while he was held on either side was in any way relevant to Ezio being stabbed fatally in actual combat? Are you avoiding that because your obvious hypocrisy can't be explained away here? Why is Altair destroying waves and waves of enemies in combat not relevant and yet that scene where he's not fighting IS relevant? I want your explanation.

You still haven't made a valid case for Altair winning since you kept ducking my attempts to get you to apply showings which is a fundamental part of a debate.

Altair wins because he's better at combat. He's better at combat because his actual combat feats are better. There's no ducking here. Facts are facts. Ducking is how you pretend that Ezio getting stabbed and left for dead is A-OK.

Your evidence for Ezio consists of assumptions and baseless speculation. My evidence is actual clear cut undisputable feats. I keep posting the evidence. You keep ignoring it. What does that say? Then you go off into your double standard nonsense where you pretend useless feats are relevant but combat feats don't count.

And here's the hypocritical post in question:

So when talking about Ezio getting captured, KOed, left for dead and needing saving from his allies IN COMBAT SITUATIONS, here's what you consider was a valid comparison:

Yeah... Altair getting stabbed above is REALLY the same thing as Ezio getting left for dead after actual fights. Oh and the event above is also relevant to a VS fight but Altair actually mowing down waves and waves of enemies nonstop...? Yeah that's irrelevant. Only the feats where he's being executed count for whatever reason. lol

What to you mean the former part of my argument is irrelevant? It's more relevant than me bringing up Mario's parkour feats. I said that in my follow up argument because you said freerunning was relevant showings in combat mobility, I'll quote again:

Just list Mario's mobility feats already. Ezio was climbing buildings with his brother before he ever trained under Mario.

Thus, is why I cited Mario's freerunning showing. Because YOU--YOU were implying that freerunning is a relevant showing of combat manoeuvrability. Why would I say, and I quote:

This is literally the dumbest thing I've ever had to provide evidence for.

? You dismissed my initial evidence which showcased Mario's knowledge and application of combat manoeuvrability. You brought up freerunning as a piece of evidence to strengthen someone's mobility in combat. Stop putting words in my mouth and quit dodging. You're failing at it.

And Ezio has shown that mobility in combat. Your Mario example is still literally irrelevant using your own double standard. Are you confused here and you somehow think Mario is comparable to Ezio? They're not. You also completely missed the point. Ezio was mobile BEFORE he trained with Mario. That's the point. You kept pretending that Mario must be mobile to to teach Ezio. He doesn't

I'm still amused at how you're ignoring the blatant double standard below:

You literally think Altair mowing down waves and waves of enemies in open combat without getting damaged is not applicable in a VS topic but somehow the above example where Altair is being executed is laughably useable evidence.

lol

You also completely missed the point. Ezio was mobile BEFORE he trained with Mario. That's the point. You kept pretending that Mario must be mobile to to teach Ezio. He doesn't

If I missed the point, it was because you weren't clear or concise about what you were asking for. In fact, the above quote, doesn't make your goal any more clearer. Regardless, I've shown Mario's accomplishments in mobility, both combative and free-running. So you're at a loss there -- again.

In addition, I love how you continue to reach and veer off topic. After post #218, you still haven't given a reasonable statement as to why/how Altair wins through the application of knowledge, logic and showings.

Get rekt.

What's clear and concise is the fact that you still decided to use noncombat feats even though later you would whine about combat feats as being irrelevant. Still haven't addressed that hypocrisy bucko. lol

Altair wins because he's better in combat. He's better in combat because he has better feats. It's funny how you think that statement isn't reasonable LITERALLY because you delude yourself into thinking every Altair feat I post doesn't count.

Here's your hypocrisy again:

lol

I love pointing out that double standard. It illustrated perfectly why you're still deluded into thinking I haven't given a reasonable argument. You LITERALLY pick and choose what you think counts and you LITERALLY just pick and choose based on what is good for Ezio. Altair mows down waves and waves of enemies? That doesn't count. Altair is stabbed during an execution? That counts. Ezio is captured and left for dead? That doesn't count.

Oh and here's one of the ACTUAL combat feats you think don't count:

Gallery

So Altair is being held during his execution and being stabbed? That counts! Why? Because Monsterstomp doesn't like Altair. Ezio is actually fighting people and ends up being left for dead or needs saving? Nope! Make excuses for Ezio and insist that the evidence doesn't count. Why? Because Monsterstomp likes Ezio. lol

Your obvious bias in picking and choosing evidence is literally indefensible it seems. You can't even touch it with a 10 foot pole. I suppose this is the next step in your "I don't like evidence but I'll argue for Ezio anyway" tactic.

:) I'm tipsy right now, but if I'm not seeing a reasonable statement as to why/how Altair wins, I'm just going to quote this comment over and over again for safety purposes. Good luck, dude.

Altair wins because he was never captured like this (in actual combat and not willinglngly like your ridiculous Altair example):

HAHAHA now double standard that away. Go! lol

Nope! Nothing to see here. This event doesn't happen because it's Ezio. lol

Due to being distracted by a once-in-a-lifetime hallucination that most likely won't occur in this situation.

Next.

HAHAHA so that doesn't count but this counts?

Your double standards aren't even subtle. lol

The entire basis of your argument for Altair winning seems to circle around the fact that Ezio was taken advantage of despite the context within those feats being non-existent in this scenario. See. That's how you apply showings. You're displaying Altair's feats like its an art convention, and comparing it to another painting, all while claiming that your painting (even though its subjective and opinionated) is factually better without explaining why. Instead, you dodge, bring up out of context conversations from 2 months ago, and put words in my mouth. Am I asking you to write an essay on aerospace here?

I feel so bad for Altair. Such a large fandom, yet little quality debaters.

So Ezio was taken advantage of? There's no way he could have NOT been captured:

Focus is obviously an essential skillset necessary in the art of combat.

-MonsterStomp

So Focus is essential to combat but it's somehow nonexistent in this combat situation. Did I just unearth another hypocrisy? Focus is this important skill essential to combat... except when Ezio fails. When Ezio fails, focus isn't important. Do you even see this stuff while you're typing it?

You're missing the ENTIRE point. You literally whine and whine about how I'm taking Ezio's showings out of context even though Ezio's in actual open combat but then reference the below showing even though Altair's being held by two guys during a trial outside of combat:

See the above? That shows perfectly your obvious bias. So Ezio actually fighting and losing to soldiers is out of context but Altair being executed...? How was that context even relevant? Your hypocrisy is showing.

lol Nope. Getting captured is a worse feat than killing everyone nonstop without getting damaged. Please just try to argue otherwise. lol

You're displaying Altair's feats like its an art convention, and comparing it to another painting, all while claiming that your painting (even though its subjective and opinionated) is factually better without explaining why. Instead, you dodge, bring up out of context conversations from 2 months ago, and put words in my mouth. Am I asking you to write an essay on aerospace here?