#1 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Both assassin's have a hidden blade only. Both with morals off and bloodlusted. Fight is in a deserted Masyaf.

Round 2: Both have the Apple of Eden and are using it to its full potential. Fight is in Abstergo HQ in the 21st century.

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Who wins?

#2 Posted by wr3h (396 posts) - - Show Bio

Altair stomps.

#3 Posted by Qpzmg (976 posts) - - Show Bio

Desmond stomps both rounds he has the knowledge of all 3 assasins and the skills of Ezio and Connor.

#4 Posted by Pyrogram (40854 posts) - - Show Bio

@Qpzmg: Altair has more skill them them both :P

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#5 Posted by GhostRider2 (3373 posts) - - Show Bio

Altair.

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#6 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram said:

@Qpzmg: Altair has more skill them them both :P

I don't want to argue with that as I am already arguing against it lol.

We know Desmond has been trained via bleeding effect within weeks to a few short months. I know Lucy mentioned something about "weeks". I just can't recall.

#7 Posted by Pyrogram (40854 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonsterStomp said:

@Pyrogram said:

@Qpzmg: Altair has more skill them them both :P

I don't want to argue with that as I am already arguing against it lol.

We know Desmond has been trained via bleeding effect within weeks to a few short months. I know Lucy mentioned something about "weeks". I just can't recall.

I know what your saying, I agree, but Desmond had trouble with abstergo gaurds, let alone a master assassin.

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#8 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

I think a case can be made for both. Desmond has taken out the Templar HQ head on without taking a hit. That's a note worthy feat. Altair has sliced through a small army without taking a hit. That is also a noteable feat.

#9 Posted by Pyrogram (40854 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonsterStomp: He did take a hit. and in AC2 he could barely take out 1 gaurd... An army vs agents?? Army stomps. He obviously got nothing from Ezio worth for this battle as AC2 desmond could not fight agents without help.

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#10 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: Though at the end of recieving his training in AC2, Desmond handled the agents easily.

#11 Posted by Pyrogram (40854 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonsterStomp: And Altair handled soldiers easier.

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#12 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: What would you say about round 2 then?

#13 Posted by Pyrogram (40854 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonsterStomp: Altair STOMPS, He used it for 20 years study. It is a bigger stomp than 1.

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#14 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: Hmm. Altair used his Apple for more physical attacks as seen where assassin's of a shadow appearance would fall from the sky and air assassinate enemies around him. Desmond's Apple (or Ezio's Apple) was used more for mental attacks causing the agents to shoot themselves.

Hard for me to decide.

#15 Posted by Pyrogram (40854 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonsterStomp said:

@Pyrogram: Hmm. Altair used his Apple for more physical attacks as seen where assassin's of a shadow appearance would fall from the sky and air assassinate enemies around him. Desmond's Apple (or Ezio's Apple) was used more for mental attacks causing the agents to shoot themselves.

Hard for me to decide.

Altair used it to also look into the future, to kill abbas I think and a few other things, he studied the thing for like 20 years lol

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#16 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: True. But Desmond jumped out of the Animus and used it like he's been using it his entire life.

#17 Posted by Pyrogram (40854 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonsterStomp: No feats though, Altair has been doing it for his life for a fact, lucy said he gets SOME of ezio and the rests stuff. He never showed much feats to be honest.

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#18 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2549 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonsterStomp: @Pyrogram:

This thread blew my mind for a second. Isn't this a paradox? Anyway, it either a stalemate, or Desmond wins.

The reason I say as much, is because through the Animus' bleeding affect, Desmond too has done what Altair has done...as well as Ezio, and Connor, and then there is the stuff he's done outside of the Animus. Altair has 1 lifetime of experiences to draw from, while Desmond has 4+.

Another thing is that Desmond is the culmination of many bloodlines containing precursor DNA. Of all the character in the AC series so far, Desmond is the one. Armed with the knowledge of Altair (bleeding affect), plus the training and experience of the others, Desmond with or without Apple in hand should match or defeat Altair.

And another thing, Abstergo agents (modern Templars) are ridiculous. Have any of you played AC's MP mode? The Abstergo agents train just like Desmond did (minus the bleeding effect), and they go out into the field to fight just like the soldiers of old and fight against the Assassins and whoever else. The Agents may not have lived and fought during the time of the crusades, or the Ottoman Empire, but because of their Animus' training they potentially could trained exactlty as they did, plus they would have had the benefit of the 100's, if not 1000's, of years of training (other people's memories) to draw from in Abstergo's database.

#19 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus: That is a good analysis sir.

#20 Posted by Pyrogram (40854 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus said:

@MonsterStomp: @Pyrogram:

This thread blew my mind for a second. Isn't this a paradox? Anyway, it either a stalemate, or Desmond wins.

The reason I say as much, is because through the Animus' bleeding affect, Desmond too has done what Altair has done...as well as Ezio, and Connor, and then there is the stuff he's done outside of the Animus. Altair has 1 lifetime of experiences to draw from, while Desmond has 4+.

Desmond could not show to be able to defeat some abstergo agents even though he spent years with Ezio, so its obvious he did not get that much of the effect.

Another thing is that Desmond is the culmination of many bloodlines containing precursor DNA. Of all the character in the AC series so far, Desmond is the one. Armed with the knowledge of Altair (bleeding affect), plus the training and experience of the others, Desmond with or without Apple in hand should match or defeat Altair.

Desmond cannot beat Altair with the apple. Altair studied it when desmond was not re-living his memory's.

And another thing, Abstergo agents (modern Templars) are ridiculous.

Not the gaurds, the actual agents yes.

Have any of you played AC's MP mode?

Yes, and seen the cutscenes

The Abstergo agents train just like Desmond did (minus the bleeding effect), and they go out into the field to fight just like the soldiers of old and fight against the Assassins and whoever else.

Not the gaurds.

The Agents may not have lived and fought during the time of the crusades, or the Ottoman Empire, but because of their Animus' training they potentially could trained exactlty as they did, plus they would have had the benefit of the 100's, if not 1000's, of years of training (other people's memories) to draw from in Abstergo's database.

The gaurds got beaten by some people doing boxing in AC2, they did not get this training.

Altair beat the best fighters in history during his run.

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#21 Posted by wr3h (396 posts) - - Show Bio

And about the Animus...while it's true that Desmond accuired the skills and abilities of his ancestors...I don't think we knew to what extent they were given. Was it the minimum? A mix?

#22 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2549 posts) - - Show Bio

Edit: Sorry about the wall of text I posted before.

@Pyrogram:

Altair beat some of the best fighters of his day to be more acurate.

@wr3h:

While we don't have a clear understanding of how much the bleeding effect infects the normal consciousness of a person, we do know that the bleeding effect does totally infect their subconscious. Clay (subject 16), Cross, and Desmond all experienced the bleed, the first two cases experiencing it to extreme levels, and were able to recall all types of info regarding their ancestor's past experiences as the bleed creeped into the conscious part of their brains forcefully. Desmond, through training, learned to cope with the visions (if they hadn't gone away all together), and to a degree control/draw from them to achieve his desired goal both subconsciously and consciously.

The bleeding effect, as I understand it, is the cross over of memories from ancestor to decendant, basically the latent ancestor DNA is awakened and allowed to integrate with the rest of the person. Desmond, who is a decendent of many assassins/templars, draws from the bleed both subconsciously and consciously to the point where when he does things instinctually. Think back to the begining of of the series. At the beginning of AC1...

"Vidic: What if I told you the human body not only housed an individual's memories, but the memories of his ancestors as well? Genetic memory, if you will. Migration, hibernation, reproduction... How do animals know when and where to go? What to do?

Desmond: That's just animal instinct.

Vidic: Now you're arguing semantics, Mr. Miles. Whatever you call it, the fact remains. These creatures hold the knowledge absent the first-hand experience. I've spent the last thirty years trying to understand why. Our DNA functions as an archive. It contains not only genetic instructions passed down from previous generations, but memories as well. The memories of our ancestors.

Desmond: And the Animus lets you decode and read these DNA files...

Vidic: Precisely."

While Altair learned to fight and kill and got pretty freaking good at it, Desmond, through the bleed, knows EVERYTHING he does...and Ezio...and Haytham...and Connor, plus what he's learned in his own life.

A good example of what I am (trying) to say is in Brotherhood when Desmond took a leap of faith off the back side of Monteriggioni because, "it just felt natural"; and also remember that the vision manifested at the precise time when the question of how to get where they, he, wanted to go came up. It happened again when he got the answer from Ezio about how to open the temple at the end of that game right when they needed it. Though he may not have consciously understood it, he still knew it.

Maybe the bleeding affect has something in common with Eagle sense? IDK. Even Ezio himself experienced the bleed in ACR to a degree when he travelled to Masyaf.

To contrast and possibly get a better understanding of this, think back to the fight Desmond had in the beginning of AC2 where he couldn't handle the Abstergo guards in his and Lucy's escape. Remember, for all of Desmonds life he's had the knowledge of all his ancestors within him, they were just locked away and he had no way of accessing the memories. Now think about when Desmond was in the Animus the first time; though he had the knowledge (DNA files) of what Altair did, he lacked the "confidence" to re-live and duplicate what Altair had done (Lucy said as much).

The same concept applies to the "real" world.

At the time of that fight Desmond lacked the confidnece to trust himself, and it was only after training that we saw his confidence level rise tremendously in both climbing and fighting to the point where he was basically in perfect "sync" with his acestor's abilities and knowledge outside of the Animus. Another example, and more proof that the bleed goes to the core of the infected's being, is Cross. In the canon AC comic, Cross took out a few trained assassins regardless of him not being officially trained himself.

#23 Posted by GodOfMischief (641 posts) - - Show Bio

Altair destroys Desmond easily...

#24 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2549 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram:

I also want to point out that the Abstergo guards were/are very well trained as they were able to fight and subdue the assassin unit that assaulted the Abstergo building in AC1 (it is unclear to me if Cross had any involvement so I'm leaving him out). Though we don't know who was apart of the raid, they must have been pretty good to have been picked to try and get Desmond out as who would sent the B or C string to do a job like that.

And also think about things this way. Desmond did what a whole unit of assassins couldn't do, and he did it by walking in the front door. They all had guns, modern guns, and they all knew exactly where Desmond way but it didn't matter cause Desmond was just that good.

Since we're all AC fans here, If you haven't seen AC generations, give it a watch. I'd say it's a pretty good fan film though they take liberties with some parts of AC lore. Also, the last part deals with the fight at Abstergo that I was talking about at the begining of the post, which is what made me think of it.

#25 Posted by BAKIMA3 (33 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah but altair watch his own fathers throat be slit in front of him giving him that passion and desire to win the fight

#26 Posted by Pyrogram (40854 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus: I understand but abstergo agents do not match to altair, and in AC2 with atleast a few years of ezio memory's he did not have it in him to easily beat the guards. Altair would have destroyed them. And Desmond has no proper feats that match to being able to defeat altair,

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#27 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

@BAKIMA3 said:

Yeah but altair watch his own fathers throat be slit in front of him giving him that passion and desire to win the fight

That has nothing to do with winning a fight. Just putting it out there.

#28 Posted by onilordasmodeus (2549 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram said:

@onilordasmodeus: I understand but abstergo agents do not match to altair, and in AC2 with atleast a few years of ezio memory's he did not have it in him to easily beat the guards. Altair would have destroyed them. And Desmond has no proper feats that match to being able to defeat altair,

Who is to say he couldn't/didn't beat them easily? Lowballing the feat, at the end of AC2 Desmond was probably at the same level that Lucy was, if not a better. The player (Desmond) had access to everything that Ezio could do in the past during that fight, versus when we saw him at the beginning of the game where Desmond's moves were limited.

Overall, I would agree with you if we were just talking about Desmond as he was just at the end of AC2 where he was still fresh in his training, but we are talking about Desmond at the end of AC3. At the end of AC3 Desmond had the full confidence and knowledge of at least 3 of his ancestors and proved it in his own missions during that game.

I'm not going to say Altair couldn't recreate what desmond did at Abstergo in some capacity, but I have my doubts about him doing it by just walking through the front door.

Also, and I don't know why I haven't mentioned it until now, but Desmond defeated Cross, another one of these "special" assassins. Cross had the memories of his ancestor Nikolai Orelov, and used them to great effect over the course of his story arch defeating many assassins which included 2 Mentors (1 was a cheap shot though). Desmond bested him twice before killing him (his death was kind of lame).

Again, am i going to say Altair couldn't do what he did? No. But the fact remains that Desmond has done what Altair has done through the Animus, and knows everything about Altair and what he would do through the bleed and he DNA...Altair literally has nothing on Desmond, that is why I said stalemate or Desmond wins.

#29 Posted by Pyrogram (40854 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus: Desmond has no feats, this is speculation that he is defeating somebody like altair.

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#30 Posted by Laurcus (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

Concerning using the apple, Desmond has far better feats. When Desmond uses the apple, there's no charge up time and each attack is instant death. Compare that to Altair's usage of the apple from Revelations, and it should be pretty obvious who wins that round.

The other round is much more debatable. They both have some pretty impressive combat feats, though it's difficult to tell just how good they are, especially with Desmond. We don't really get to see Desmond in a proper fight in the final portions of AC3, which is theoretically when he'd be at his strongest.

There is one thing that could tip this heavily in Altair's favor, and that's physical fitness. In Brotherhood, Lucy mentions that Desmond is getting fat because he does nothing but eat, sleep, and use the animus. In theory, with equalized, or even greater skill on the part of Desmond, Altair should win in a fight simply because Desmond will lack the physical strength, endurance, and speed to use his skill and knowledge effectively.

On the other hand though, this lack of physical exercise doesn't seem to impair Desmond at all in AC3, as he has free running feats that Olympic gymnasts wouldn't be able to duplicate. There's definitely an inconsistency there. Due to the ambiguous nature of Desmond's fitness level, I'm gonna give this round to Altair.

In summary, Altair takes the combat round, while Desmond takes the apple round.

#31 Posted by Pyrogram (40854 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus said:

There is one thing that could tip this heavily in Altair's favor, and that's physical fitness. In Brotherhood, Lucy mentions that Desmond is getting fat because he does nothing but eat, sleep, and use the animus. In theory, with equalized, or even greater skill on the part of Desmond, Altair should win in a fight simply because Desmond will lack the physical strength, endurance, and speed to use his skill and knowledge effectively.

So true. Desmond physically is not like Altair. Skill is nothing without the actual abilities to perform.

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#32 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

Physically, Desmond is in fine health. He hasn't shown any signs of degrading health. Fresh from the animus, Desmond was able to scale a skyscrapper with as reletive ease as Connor. He escaped the stadium in Brazil with a great number of guards on his tail. He defeated Daniel Cross in hand to hand. Took down highly trained Abstergo Agents with ease (at the end of AC2). Nothing suggests he has degrading health.

#33 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2549 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram:

To say he has no feats is strange since you know he has them, and since I've cited them in previous posts.

@Laurcus:

Very true. The only thing I can say is that his showings in ACB and AC3 speak for themselves. In gameplay he moved just like his counter parts, did so we have to assume he moves as they did since that is all that we are given. Also, we have to remember that this whole story takes place over the course of weeks, like 3 and a half months. People (with "good" genes)don't don't deteriorate that fast, so it is safe to assume that a few weeks worth of training in between real world workouts, would have that great of an effect.

As we don't know what Desmond's fitness life was before being abducted, we don't know what he was capable of before then either; but it is clear that he was in decent enough shape. In ACB we saw that he trained hard, to the point that he was recreating his ancestor's climbing manuvers, and in AC3 we saw him fight as they would have.

Edit:

We don't even know what Altair's training consisted of so bottom-line is that we are stuck having to go off asumptions on both sides for parts of this argument. If we were to leave it up to pure game mechanics though (which I'm not advovcating for) and a hint of lore, we know that ultimately Desmond moved as Connor did, and that Connor was stated to be stronger and faster than the other assassins.

Does that mean the Desmond was stronger and moved faster than Altair? Eeeh...I wouldn't say that...but it could be true.

#34 Posted by joshuagamer (634 posts) - - Show Bio

oh cool, someone made a desmond "suicide" battle