Alduin vs Superboy Prime

It doesn't seem like Alduin has much actually going for him here.

@zaied: Iv'e got one simple word that will take down everything that you just said: LORE!

@silverrings: I don't feel like telling you how awe inspiring The Great Alduin is, But read up on geths posts and some great feats are mentioned multiple times.

@_fox_: That's kinda what i mean though. He seems pretty impressive in theory but not necessarily in practice.

@silverrings: Trust me on this I've been playing elder scrolls games and reading lore for three years.

@zaied: Dragonborn only pulled a win because of Dragonrend and their being at the Time Wound.

That's like giving Thor a win against Superman because one time Batman beat him with Kryptonite.

Also, as far as "real" showings, Alduin casually reanimates armies of Dragons, who are worshiped as gods by ancient Nords. He also created the extremely powerful Daedric PRince of Destruction Mehrunes Dagon, who himself caused the Oblivion Crisis, during which hordes of Daedra rekt Tamriel.

In lore, a single word of a dragon shout is sufficient to level a city. Helgen took as much effort from Alduin as a sneeze.

That's because gameplay mechanics are poo-poo. Both times the Dragonborn fought him, he was either weakened by the location (Time Wound) or his personal Kryptonite (Dragonrend). The Ancient Nords needed an Elder Scroll, an object of immesurable power, to send him through time. The whole time displacement deal was their only option, as Alduin cannot be destroyed.

Just within games, forgetting any of the lore only shown in books, we still have his feats in reanimating a dragon army. Dragons are immensely powerful by mortal standards and were worshiped as gods by ancient Nords. Some Aedra and Daedra, including Alduin, choose to appear as a dragon due to their symbolism with power, and some of the most powerful magics in the Elder Scrolls originate form Dragons.

Alduin also created Mehrunes Dagon, who happens to be the extremely powerful Daedric Prince of destruction, who caused the Oblivion Crisis and rekt Tamriel real good. It took a player character in a full suit of plot armor to take him down, and this is just an idle creation of Alduin's.

Whether or not we've actually seen him complete his task as World-Eater (despite lore books stating that he has), he's still responsible for some of the most catastrophic events in the Elder Scrolls universe since Mannimarco and the Numindium.

@geth: Sneeze Fus ro dah and stomp super boys cry baby A**.

Supes

@geth: Fair enough, man. I'm definitely not saying that i think this would be an easy win, i'm not knowledgeable enough to say that anyway, but based on what i've seen i find myself leaning towards SBP. However, a lot of Alduin's lore feats and the idea of him being able to create living beings and raise armies from the dead to do his fighting for him make this quite hard to figure out, in my opinion.

Plus, game characters can be annoying in fights, as they can have perfectly good feats in cut scenes but then seem much less capable during actual gameplay and whatnot.

@_fox_: Yeah, i'm not doubting that the lore says some impressive stuff, i've read a lot of it on this thread alone, but based on actual feats it seems like Alduin is sort of a less capable version of his lore counterpart, if you know what i mean. Also, see above.

@_fox_: *sigh*

Dude, no. Lmao. Sure, Fus can level a city, but SBP literally shattered the fourth wall and decided to have a fly around the multiverse.

Reason? Cause he does.

People need to stop saying Alduin is universe level or whatever. He never displayed that type of power in a fight. He clearly has to do some kind of ritual or some thing out of battle to do whatever it is he does, or else he would have just blown up the Earth along with the Dragonborn on it. In all honesty, Aquaman could kill Alduin, let alone someone of SBPs level.

@klaus: Meh, I've heard that joke before. Quite frankly it's getting a bit stale.

If you cared to pay attention to the Lore, or even the in-game feats for that matter, you'd realize that Alduin doesn't just murder everyone outright because he'd rather rule the universe. He's limited only by his arrogance (and gameplay GIS [Gameplay Induced Stupidity], of coarse).

Since I don't care to repeat myself any more than I have, I'll just direct you to any of my recent posts above in case you only care about "Real" feats. His in-game showings put him on a world-Buster scale.

Lore, however, puts him on a multiversal scale, as his role as a deity is to destroy the current universe so that the next may begin. This is a cycle, and there is evidence of previous universes having existed, proving that Alduin has succeeded at this before.

Ignore what you want for whatever reasons you want, but for some reason people just love to deny lore in favor of gameplay despite it being clear that Todd Howard loves PIS more than Jeph Loeb in Deathstroke Jammies

Also, Aquaman couldn't do jack shit to Alduin because he is an indestructible being. He can't die until he fulfills the prophecy of destroying the universe, and even then he must survive so that he may do it again.

Just Joking around, It's just a fun way of saying The Eater of Worlds stomps on super-baby's cry baby A** 3 times.

@_fox_: Whatever you say, dude.

I've just been defending Alduin this whole time. This is in now way a stomp.

Alduin is practically featless, and my dragon born instakilled him with an iron dagger. SBP wins.

@nonokranendonk: lmao just stop

You can't seriously be trying to debate a character based solely on gameplay mechanics.

Please, read any of my previous posts in this thread for your precious "feats"

Try harder before posting. Just a suggestion.

@geth: I don't have time right now, but do you have a scan which says he is a universe destroyer? They call him the 'world eater'. A world is generally seen as one planet. And the part about the iron dagger was just a joke :P. You don't have to take it seriously. It's just that SBP has better feats (in my opinion, of course).

@nonokranendonk: World Eater is just a title. How are stupid, self-contained Ancient Nords supposed to be able to differentiate form the world and all of existence? To them, it's all the same.

Let me find the actual text which states Alduin's role as the being who ends the current Kalpa so that the next may begin. With my luck, I'll be spending all day on the Imperial Library only for people to ignore it anyway.

@geth:

If you find a scan saying he's a universe eater I'd be convinced.

@nonokranendonk:

Been having troubles on UESP finding the exact books that state it, and the Elder Scrolls Forums, Reddit, etc. Are blocked at my school.

Gonna bypass the filters for a sec and see if any of the lore scholars mentioned any books in particular on the Reddit.

With my luck, everything on Kalpas is going to be Kirkbride text

@nonokranendonk: Currently re-reading "The Seven Flights of The Aldudagga"

It is, of coarse, written by Michael Kirkbride. This is a paragrahph I ripped form the first chapter, "Flight One, The Eating-Birth of Dagon" which details Alduin's ending of the previous Kalpa as long as his creation of the Daedric Prince Mehrunes Dagon.

In fact, after many looks east, west, south, and north, and seeing only the churning dragon stop around him, Dagon realied that at some point when he was begging with his eyes closed that Alduin had eaten him, mountaintop and all, and he had not heard the big chomp because he had been begging too loud. And he knew that the last world had been eaten entirely, except for its stolen portions, and that when the new kalpa began to form The Greedy Man (who never stayed trapped for long) would begin sticking these stolen portions back on in the craziest of places, and that he himself could never jump again until all was put back right.

Note that the text states that the last world had been eaten entirely. This particular event takes place on Red Mountain, indicating that this last world is Nirn, the mortal realm. This would also indicate that Oblivion and Aetherius had been devoured before this, supporting the notion that he is universe-level, as Nirn, Oblivion, and Aetherius make up the realms of Mortals, Aedra, and Daedra respectively, indicating that the Aedra (think 9 Divines for the uninitiated) are devoured as well. Also note that in creating Mehrunes Dagon, he has created an immensely powerful Daedric Prince who would later be responsible for the Oblivion Crisis, which was merely one of Dagon's many momentaey escapes from Oblivion, yet caused catastrophic and long-lasting damage to Tamriel. For further reading on the Oblivion Crisis, click Here.

He prayed to Alduin the dragon of time, who was the greatest enemy of men, for he ate the world everytime he woke up. But Herkel knew that Dagon was a greater enemy to the dragon, so he put that in his prayer, saying, "Mighty time-eater, I am Herkel the Fool, and I am truly a fool. But I fought bravely at the fall of Sarthaal which lay now at my feet, as does the one responsible for its destruction. I do not ask you to wake up, Alduin, for that would ruin more than Dagon will (and that's a lot now that I keep hitting his head)! And I do not ask you to bring my fighting friends and king back to life, for that is the province of your brother and even I'm not foolish enough to ask all that! And I do not ask you to turn back time, for that is against the laws of all the gods! But I do ask you for a little help, even though...." (And here he kept praying.)

This is another text from the same book, this time from the second chapter. The man praying is Herkel the Fool, who is among the 500 Companions, who have rendered Mehrunes Dagon unconscious. Fearing what may come, he prays to Alduin for help. Note when he is pleading to Alduin that he mentions Alduin's skill in necromancy (further demonstrated in Skyrim when he raises an army of Dragons, who in themselves are low-level Aedra), as well as his ability to turn back time. Alduin is the Nordic aspect of Aka, the Aka oversoul being the various identities of certain time-related gods, most notably Akatosh and his aspects. Akatosh is supremely in control of the flow of time, which is demonstrated multiple times when catastrophic events occur when Akatosh loses control of the flow of time. These are called Dragon Breaks. For further reading on those, click Here.

Also, do bear in mind that Alduin is not singularly the world-eater. He is the time-eater as well, and, being a part of the Aka oversoul, his sphere is time. To end a Kalpa, he must devour all of reality, and time is no different. All time that ever has been and ever will be in that Kalpa must be devoured, ensuring even the dead and ascended gods cannot escape him hunger.

So yeah. Take Kirkbride text how you will.

@geth: Thanks for digging that up mate. If he is indeed the eater of time he should be well above SBP.

I'm gonna bump this.

Oh Skyrim fanboys...

@darthaznable: Skyrim? Please. One of the weakest games of the series.

Elder Scrolls fanboy, loud n' proud

@acrokat: Is that really necessary? I never understood why people do that. Just quote somebody and leave it there or quote somebody and say "This"

You're tagging them in a useless post to avoid 10 keystrokes

@geth: Save ten strokes for two clicks, I'm lazy.

Seriously though I do it because I either point out a flaw or this person says what is exactly on my mind

@acrokat: Yeah, but is it not customary to read the arguments in the thread before making a decision?

I'm pretty sure the post you quoted was the first or second post out of the 83 thus far.

Just to play Devil's advocate, wouldn't lore be like us using author statements, and not feats. We need feats to back this up, and Alduin just doesn't have them. I love the Elder Scrolls franchise so I'm not bashing it, but Alduin just doesn't have feats unless we use statements.

Wow I'm genuinely confused over how the OP has tried to make this clearly one sided match up a debatable topic but in case there needs to be actual proof, it took 3 Kryptonians, Superman, Supergirl and Power Girl to overpower Prime and that was when he wasn't at full strength since the solar armour hadn't restored him to full power. After he got back to full power, this is how he treated a couple Kryptonians, either of whom could stomp Alduin along with Kilowagg too.

When Black Adam, who's fought the main Justice Society all at once, one shotted Power Girl, had the upper hand or defeated Captain Marvel several times fought Prime, this is what he felt of his punches and what he did afterwards.

Gallery

When 30th Century Mordru, who can solo the Legion of Superheroes and destroy planets blasted Superboy Prime with his magic, this is what Prime had to say about it.

And Alduin's so called immortality and invulnerability won't last a second against Prime's blitzes given that he destroyed a 300 mile thick wall of pure Green Lantern willlpower and was only slowed down at best.

It should be pretty obvious that feats>sketchy lore and feats are what Prime has in spades. This isn't a fight regardless of whether the battle took place in or outside of Sovengarde, it's a dragon slaughter for Prime. Alduin is nowhere near Prime's level, this is fairly obvious to most people.

@geth: I did read through, made my decision, and quoted that post because it reflected my opinion.

@lvenger: Clearly one-sided?

See Time-Eater

@geth: Read it already, on panel verifiable showings>unclear, sketchy lore citation. A posteriori>a priori reasoning. Or Layman's terms feats>statements.

Good to have some level headed people in here.

Superboy Prime curbstomps not fair at all.

@lvenger: Actual, in-game showings still aren't trustworthy?

And if lore isn't, that what is?

Alduin gets his throat punched in.

@geth: Funny, I've played through Skyrim twice now and I don't seem to recall Alduin doing anything noteworthy in terms of in game showings. Just Fire Breath, Frost Breath, Meteor Shout, necromancy (which only worked on other dragons) and destroying Helgen. A town level feat which is laughable by Superboy Prime's standards, the spoiled brat who moves planets like chess pieces.

Because for one you can't actually prove that Alduin is capable of destroying a world, let alone an entire freaking universe or gorging all of time. And secondly, the lore is open to misinterpretation and taking it out of context. I can prove what Prime can do whereas you're having trouble doing the same with Alduin. Not to mention that Prime fodderises groups of DC heavy hitters who would also stomp Alduin in turn.

ya i quite like Skyrim played it three times as-well shame it had to end a better match would be all the Deadric princes vs prime.

SPB stomps by feats. Statements and lore alone mean nothing. Alduin could be killed with bear hands if you played well enough.

If this were a fight to the Death, Alduin wins by default in Sovengarde.

But it's not. Even in the realm of souls, he's just not powerful enough to contend with SBP. SBP can throw him half a planet away, and I'd consider that a win. Unless SBP is particularly weak against TP, and even then he can blitz Alduin 10 times over before Alduin can think about using it (GET IT!?).

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

SBP stomps to this

LoK Soul Reaver Intro-Ozar Midrashim by Information Society

What "he" said ;)

@lvenger: LOL

Yeah, they're ONLY dragons.

Dragons are lesser Aedra in themselves, and possess currently powerful magic in the form of shouts. A single word of Unrelenting Force is capable of leveling a city.

Since when do we debate game characters on their games' mechanics?

Oh, and don't forget the Oblivion Crisis.

Also don't forget that as a part of the Aka Oversoul Alduin's sphere is time. From what I can gather, destruction of time > speedblitzing. Because what's speed relative to? Time, of coarse.

@lvenger: @geth: I don't think that there's any doubt about Superboy Prime being the victor here, particularly after lvenger listed his feats, but I thought I'd revisit this topic because I think the topics of game mechanics and how they interact with lore in the Elder Scrolls is interesting :)

1. Game mechanics

I accept, having played Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim, that game mechanics are not necessarily supposed to be a reliable indication as to an entity's true power. A classic example would be in Tribunal, an expansion to Morrowind. As everyone who's played Tribunal would know, there's a particular wood elf in Mournhold, who is ridiculously overpowered. He's a more fearsome and powerful adversary than Dagoth Ur, the entire population of Oblivion, and everyone in Skyrim. He would solo all of them - and can only be defeated by most PCs by significantly powerful magic items, vast number of potions, or constantly spamming conjuration and then running away. And yet superficially he is just a Bosmer, even more annoying than most, but still with standard wood elf powers - except that he has a Luck characteristic literally five times the maximum possible for a PC.

Now, unless he's secretly an avatar of a Daedric Prince, I assume that he is not actually meant to be in lore more powerful than Alduin - he, and many of the others inhabiting Mournhold, are simply amped up in power to provide challenging gameplay for someone who has already completed the Main Quest.

So I accept that game mechanics don't tell the whole story, and I even would concede that people are particularly disdainful of Alduin because he is, frankly, a boring character and gameplay-wise one of the least challenging major antagonists of the game.

However, there's a difference between strict game mechanics and the feats that NPCs in the Elder Scrolls games display. These feats are important because they indicate not only what a character strictly speaking does in the course of a game, but what that character can do, how this bears out his or her stated power, and give some hint as to what his capability may be. These characters include (major spoilers for the games):

1. Dagoth Ur - Dagoth is stated in Morrowind to be basically incapable of being killed; his immortality is maintained by the Heart of Lorkhan. Proof:aAfter the Nerevarine kills him, he shortly resurrects himself in the chamber of the Heart. He is also shown to be capable, among other things, of infiltrating people's dreams.

2. Mehrunes Dagon and Sheogorath - Daedric Prices are stated in lore to be vastly poweful. This seems to be borne out by many Daedric quests, and in particular, Mehrunes in Oblivion shows his ability by creating a sub-dimension (Mankar Camoran's Paradise) and being impervious in his form when entering Nirn to the PC but only susceptible to an avatar of Akatosh. Sheogorath cannot be successfully attacked by the PC in Shivering Isles, and rules his own dimension.

What does Alduin display? More than many critics would maintain, tbf. He is difficult to kill except through Dragonrend, he can level a settlement, and he can rain down a meteor shower.

However, this is all far less than the instant resurrection and reality warping feats displayed by Dagoth Ur and the Daedric Princes.

2. Lore

The Elder Scrolls games show a relatively sophisticated approach to lore. Lore consists of statements made by characters in game, books, and other things you might reasonably be able to glean.

Is this lore absolutely reliable, therefore?

NO.

Are the books concerning Vivec reliable in Morrowind? No, they're intended to be religious/moral edification, as well as perhaps a way of Vivec communicated to the Nerevarine.

Are the statements made by Vivec reliable? No, he never directly lies, but he makes important omissions.

Are the books about the creation of the world reliable? No, the Monomyth gives a number of different creation myths, which can't all be literally true. Other books show that Men/Mer interpret existence very differently.

Are books about recent/current events reliable? No, the Bear of Markarth fingers Ulric directly for atrocities, and yet statements by prisoners in Markarth seem to place the blame on the Jarl at the time.

Is lore that gives vague hyperbolic feats for Alduin, including stuff about him allegedly creating Mehrunes Dagon, reliable? No, no, and no.

Is Odin omnipotent in Marvel because people used to use that term to describe him back in the Lee/Kirby Days.

3. Conclusion

As lvenger said, actual feats beats implied titles or hyperbolic feats.

Lo, Superboy Prime - verily he stompeth, even to the umpteenth degree.

@geth: Is there any lore where a Dragon actually levels a city with a word? Because it took 3 for Alduin to raze Helgen via meteor shout. That's not a game mechanic, that's what happened in the in game world. Oblivion Crisis is irrelevant, how does that apply to a fight? Can Alduin summon Mehrunes Dagon at will? I haven't heard that happening at all. And destruction of time is likewise irrelevant to combat since Alduin can't destroy time and the entire universe instantly nor is it relevant to a fight. And even if it was true that Alduin was a universe buster, you've made a mismatch in putting him against Superboy Prime. Nonetheless, your position isn't that valid based on the evidence and thus Prime's vastly superior feats stand. Lesser powerhouses than Prime could stomp Alduin, Prime just makes this easy.