#1 Posted by menaceforever (3696 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals off

Team all have there Starheart abilities

Location: Times Square

Pre New 52

Standard Gear

vs

#2 Posted by beatboks1 (7004 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure how Rayner has starheart (unless you meant ION) but three starheart vs parallax take him.

#3 Posted by menaceforever (3696 posts) - - Show Bio

ION was who I was reffering to.

#4 Posted by KRGL (47 posts) - - Show Bio

Is it Hog Ion?

#5 Posted by menaceforever (3696 posts) - - Show Bio

No I meant Parralax Rayner

#6 Posted by KRGL (47 posts) - - Show Bio

So it's Kyle Rayner, possessed by Parallax during the Sinistro Corps War..ok. I don't know a lot about Parallax Hal Jordan right now but I think this may be a close battle but I'm going to give it to Alan, Kyle, and Jade unless more evidence is given in favor of Parallax-Hal.

#7 Posted by Onemoreposter (3955 posts) - - Show Bio

Parallax was a grade A, top of the food chain reality warper who essentially destroyed the dcu a near infinite amount of times over. Alan, Jade, and Kyle, whichever versions they may be, die horribly.

Here's an old post of mine detailing some of Zero Hour Parallax's feats and why his power is superior to HOG Ion.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Onemoreposter said:

@SlimJ87D: Parallax Hal (merged with CPB) > Ion (HOG) Kyle

HOG wasn't fused with the CPB. He was leaching energy left behind in the sun from when Parallax did.

Parallax was a reality/time warper of the highest order. HOG Kyle had some serious skill, but not like Hal Jordan did back in '94.

That is debatable (See note 1) because Kyle was capable of restoring the corps back to what it was and recreate the Guardians of the Universe with male and female gender.

Note 1:
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/parallax-vs-the-ion/5878/
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/kyle-rayner-ion-vs-hal-jordan-parallax/390002/
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/kyle-rayner-ion-vs-hal-jordan-parallax/548267/ Feel free to express your opinion and debate against the 100s of post that may or may not disagree with your statement.

I think I'll do just that.

Parallax Hal created an entropy wave and sent it through time. Effectively destroying the entire universe many times over.

(not the greatest scan of what I'm referring to, but anyone who's read the series or pulls up a summary online can confirm what I'm saying)

While Kyle sacrificed his power to restart the CORPS and restore the guardians and the CPB, Parallax was able to create vast amounts of celestial bodies and life forms as seen here. (I believe the location is the void left where the universe was after Hal destroyed it infinitely over back to the beginning of time, wish I had my issues in front of me :(

He even implies his power goes so far as to creating multiple universes. (though i realize implication doesn't count as a feat)

He is only defeated after he himself defeats most of the heroes (including the spectre) and has expended vast amounts of energy destroying the universe (again, an infinite amount of times over) and beginning it's reconstruction.

When he returns in Final Night, not only does he have enough power to restart the sun, but obviously vast quantities of energy on top of that which would later be the basis of HOG Ion's power.

#8 Posted by beatboks1 (7004 posts) - - Show Bio

@Onemoreposter: Full starheart powered Alan is also a high end reality warper. Plus the power of the starheart was used by Eclipso in JLA (having possessed jade) to destroy Spectre and the Presence. Tow times the power to destroy the presence (the creator of the DCU) and HOG IMO definitely beats a measly destroyer of universes.

Full starheart Alan

Eclipso with Starheart power

#9 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12592 posts) - - Show Bio

The team. The whole Ion thing clenches it.

#10 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Avenging-X-Bolt said:
The team. The whole Ion thing clenches it.
Kyle had varying levels of power as Ion. And even during HoG, we mostly go by implied power rather than anything he did to call him Parallax's equal or superior. 
 
@beatboks1 said:


Eclipso with Starheart power

Eclipso didn't have the Starheart at the time he chopped Spectre in half. And the second is Eclipso fantasizing while being defeated, it never happened, so it's moot.
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#11 Posted by Saren (25332 posts) - - Show Bio

Considering that the DCU was falling apart in the Presence's absence during the Lucifer series, Eclipso's claim of having killed the Presence is a bit dubious.

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#12 Posted by eisjfiejss (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@Morpheus_ said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:
The team. The whole Ion thing clenches it.
And even during HoG, we mostly go by implied power rather than anything he did to call him Parallax's equal or superior.

Ion already stated to Spectre that he can undo everything Parallax did in Zero Hour. This at least means nothing Parallax did in Zero Hour is a threat to him. IMO this means Ion should defeat Parallax in a head on fight, since Ion can basically undo everything Parallax does. Personally I do not think this is implied power, because it was stated and agreed upon by the Spectre.

#13 Posted by Onemoreposter (3955 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1 said:

@Onemoreposter: Full starheart powered Alan is also a high end reality warper. Plus the power of the starheart was used by Eclipso in JLA (having possessed jade) to destroy Spectre and the Presence. Tow times the power to destroy the presence (the creator of the DCU) and HOG IMO definitely beats a measly destroyer of universes.

Full starheart Alan

Eclipso with Starheart power

Nothing in any of those scans to suggest full Star Heart Scott is any where close to being on the level with ZH Parallax.

@eisjfiejss said:

@Morpheus_ said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:
The team. The whole Ion thing clenches it.
And even during HoG, we mostly go by implied power rather than anything he did to call him Parallax's equal or superior.

Ion already stated to Spectre that he can undo everything Parallax did in Zero Hour. This at least means nothing Parallax did in Zero Hour is a threat to him. IMO this means Ion should defeat Parallax in a head on fight, since Ion can basically undo everything Parallax does. Personally I do not think this is implied power, because it was stated and agreed upon by the Spectre.

If tomorrow, your house was blown over by a hurricane, after the hurricane passed you would be able to rebuild your house. You would be able to rebuild your house because the hurricane was no longer around to contend with. This doesn't mean you're more powerful, but simply that with the destructive force gone you can undo the damages it caused.

Pre-retcon Ion (i.e. hand of god) gained his powers from the residue left by Parallax in earths sun after he rebirthed it. Ion's power was completely expelled after he restored the power in the central power battery which simultaneously restored the guardians as the two are intrinsically linked (remember also though, that Ion was NOT responsible for restoring Oa or the actual CPB itself, only the power with in it). Parallax on the other hand was able to infinitely destroy the universe and begin to recreate it and still his powers weren't completely drained. Even when Parallax reignites the Sun his power obviously still isn't expelled as a vast quantity of power still remains inside the sun for Ion to later use.

Also, in the first scan I posted above, Parallax mentions slipping inside of the time stream and absorbing vast chronal energies left over from the anti-monitor. HOG Ion never displays any sort of chronal or time manipulation abilities.

Pre-retcon/HOG Ions powers come directly from the left over power of ZH Parallax. Logically, a fraction of a thing can't be more than the sum of a thing. At the end of the day though, the most convicting evidence that ZH Parallax >>> HOG Ion is that he has far better feats.

#14 Posted by eisjfiejss (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@Onemoreposter said:

@beatboks1 said:

@Onemoreposter: Full starheart powered Alan is also a high end reality warper. Plus the power of the starheart was used by Eclipso in JLA (having possessed jade) to destroy Spectre and the Presence. Tow times the power to destroy the presence (the creator of the DCU) and HOG IMO definitely beats a measly destroyer of universes.

Full starheart Alan

Eclipso with Starheart power

Nothing in any of those scans to suggest full Star Heart Scott is any where close to being on the level with ZH Parallax.

@eisjfiejss said:

@Morpheus_ said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:
The team. The whole Ion thing clenches it.
And even during HoG, we mostly go by implied power rather than anything he did to call him Parallax's equal or superior.

Ion already stated to Spectre that he can undo everything Parallax did in Zero Hour. This at least means nothing Parallax did in Zero Hour is a threat to him. IMO this means Ion should defeat Parallax in a head on fight, since Ion can basically undo everything Parallax does. Personally I do not think this is implied power, because it was stated and agreed upon by the Spectre.

If tomorrow, your house was blown over by a hurricane, after the hurricane passed you would be able to rebuild your house. You would be able to rebuild your house because the hurricane was no longer around to contend with. This doesn't mean you're more powerful, but simply that with the destructive force gone you can undo the damages it caused.

Pre-retcon Ion (i.e. hand of god) gained his powers from the residue left by Parallax in earths sun after he rebirthed it. Ion's power was completely expelled after he restored the power in the central power battery which simultaneously restored the guardians as the two are intrinsically linked (remember also though, that Ion was NOT responsible for restoring Oa or the actual CPB itself, only the power with in it). Parallax on the other hand was able to infinitely destroy the universe and begin to recreate it and still his powers weren't completely drained. Even when Parallax reignites the Sun his power obviously still isn't expelled as a vast quantity of power still remains inside the sun for Ion to later use.

Also, in the first scan I posted above, Parallax mentions slipping inside of the time stream and absorbing vast chronal energies left over from the anti-monitor. HOG Ion never displays any sort of chronal or time manipulation abilities.

Pre-retcon/HOG Ions powers come directly from the left over power of ZH Parallax. Logically, a fraction of a thing can't be more than the sum of a thing. At the end of the day though, the most convicting evidence that ZH Parallax >>> HOG Ion is that he has far better feats.

The hurricane example you give I believe is an inaccurate comparison. If Ion is able to undo Zero Hour, then even in a face to face fight, no matter what Parallax tries to do, Ion can simply warp reality/time such that it never happened. Parallax took a big effort to make Zero Hour happen, and if Ion is able to undo it with ease logically Ion is higher. Unless you think Parallax has power beyond what he did in Zero Hour, or else everything Parallax does can be nullified by Ion.

If Ion was able to restore the green lantern battery and the guardians then in theory he has around as much power as Parallax, since Parallax's primary power was from the battery.

You're being too extreme when you say Ion never displayed any time manipulation. In green lantern 150 it started out with Ion observing the time stream, and contemplating which parts of it to change. This means Ion has the power to warp time to his liking. What ever he wanted to have occur in the past, he can make it happen. I'd say that's pretty good time control. Also, Ion states to the Spectre that he can change what has happened without changing what will be, so in other words he can change the past without affecting the future. That is something even Parallax cannot do. Also the following scan is also an example of Ion's time related feats:

Your last statement is a highly theoretical. Even if Ion's power was only a fraction of Parallax's, he still restored the battery. Doesn't that mean their powers are equal? This kind of inconsistency leads me to believe that such arguments should not be used.

Also, how do you suggest Parallax defeat Ion in a head on fight? If Parallax tries to attack Ion, there will always be another version of Ion somewhere else. If Parallax destroyed the universe, Ion would warp reality such that it never happened like Ion stated to the Spectre he could do. If Parallax went to the past to kill Ion, Ion can "hold the strings together" (like he said throughout the arc) such that even if a past version of himself was killed, the present version would not be affected. On the other hand, Ion can travel back in time to kill Parallax in the past (Parallax even stated in Zero Hour that he had to protect a past version of himself). Ion can also warp reality such that Parallax/Hal never even existed in the past. This is exactly what Ion told the Spectre he wanted to do. He was going to rewrite the timestream such that Hal never became Parallax (therefore making Parallax nonexistent) so that Hal would not have to atone for his crimes as the Spectre.

#15 Posted by Onemoreposter (3955 posts) - - Show Bio

@eisjfiejss said:

The hurricane example you give I believe is an inaccurate comparison. If Ion is able to undo Zero Hour, then even in a face to face fight, no matter what Parallax tries to do, Ion can simply warp reality/time such that it never happened. Parallax took a big effort to make Zero Hour happen, and if Ion is able to undo it with ease logically Ion is higher. Unless you think Parallax has power beyond what he did in Zero Hour, or else everything Parallax does can be nullified by Ion.

The hurricane example is not inaccurate. HOG never implies that he "can simply warp reality/time such that it never happened...no matter what Parallax tries to do." Ion would of had to recreate the entire universe to undo ZH (since zero hour ended with the universe being recreated). It's never specified what exactly Kyle means by "undo." Kyle also never mentions confronting Parallax. All you have here is baseless speculation.

@eisjfiejss said:

If Ion was able to restore the green lantern battery and the guardians then in theory he has around as much power as Parallax, since Parallax's primary power was from the battery.

No. Parallax started out with the sum of the power from the CPB. However, In my above scans Hal says he then traveled through the time stream and absorbed anomalous energies left over from COIE and the Anti-Monitor. The sum of these energies gave him vast control over chronal energy allowing him to easily manipulate time/space.

@eisjfiejss said:

You're being too extreme when you say Ion never displayed any time manipulation. In green lantern 150 it started out with Ion observing the time stream, and contemplating which parts of it to change. This means Ion has the power to warp time to his liking. What ever he wanted to have occur in the past, he can make it happen. I'd say that's pretty good time control. Also, Ion states to the Spectre that he can change what has happened without changing what will be, so in other words he can change the past without affecting the future. That is something even Parallax cannot do. Also the following scan is also an example of Ion's time related feats:

I'm not being extreme. He never did display any time manipulation. His contemplation doesn't mean squat. Just because he thinks about a thing doesn't mean he could do a thing easily. HOG might've of said he could changed the past without affecting the future but he never did. Also, Parallax never tried to do this so we don't know if he could or couldn't. You're just making more empty speculation.

@eisjfiejss said:

Nothing in this scan suggests time manipulation. All we know for sure is that Kyle has been watching Jade (in real time) and he cannot be seen.

@eisjfiejss said:

Your last statement is a highly theoretical. Even if Ion's power was only a fraction of Parallax's, he still restored the battery. Doesn't that mean their powers are equal? This kind of inconsistency leads me to believe that such arguments should not be used.

I have said little if anything that is "theoretical." Like I said earlier in this post, NO Parallax's power WERE NOT EQUAL to the sum of the CPB (again I refer you to the scans from my previous post) so Kyle restoring it does not make their powers equal. See? No inconsistency.

@eisjfiejss said:

Also, how do you suggest Parallax defeat Ion in a head on fight? If Parallax tries to attack Ion, there will always be another version of Ion somewhere else. If Parallax destroyed the universe, Ion would warp reality such that it never happened like Ion stated to the Spectre he could do. If Parallax went to the past to kill Ion, Ion can "hold the strings together" (like he said throughout the arc) such that even if a past version of himself was killed, the present version would not be affected. On the other hand, Ion can travel back in time to kill Parallax in the past (Parallax even stated in Zero Hour that he had to protect a past version of himself). Ion can also warp reality such that Parallax/Hal never even existed in the past. This is exactly what Ion told the Spectre he wanted to do. He was going to rewrite the timestream such that Hal never became Parallax (therefore making Parallax nonexistent) so that Hal would not have to atone for his crimes as the Spectre.

See, people who live in theoretical houses shouldn't throw stones.....

There is no evidence Kyle can do any of things you're supposing he can, because he has never done any of it.

Again, ZH Parallax feats >>>>>>>> HOG Ion feats.

#16 Posted by beatboks1 (7004 posts) - - Show Bio

@onemoreposter. your entire ststement above is solely about Ion. the Starheart is the collection of all magic in the universe done by the guardians. with this power and without really applying himself Alan was able to control all the forces of nature and wield them against esrths heros, possess and control several of the planets most powerful beings, fight alll earths heroes in miltiple locations and make normal people superpowered enough to take on several jla/ Jas members . He did all this simultaneously. with only a fraction of the power ( not fully giving himself over to it) in underworld unleashed he used his power prevent the destruction of multiple universe and realities by reaching into a rift and facing the force in all at once. he also without full starheart power has shown complete control over time having changed the flow of time ona planet whos existence threatened Earth so that centuries went past in minutes. if both he and Jade have the FULL power of the starheart with HOG beside them I reall cant see why they couldnt pull off a win

#17 Posted by Onemoreposter (3955 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: You're correct. I was only arguing ZH Parallax over HOG in that last post. I'm not quite as acquainted with Scott's higher end Star Heart feats like I am with he other two. However, in your above post the only point you make for the Star heart having comparable power is Scott preventing the destruction of multiple realities. You have scans?

#18 Edited by eisjfiejss (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@Onemoreposter said:

HOG never implies that he "can simply warp reality/time such that it never happened...no matter what Parallax tries to do." Ion would of had to recreate the entire universe to undo ZH (since zero hour ended with the universe being recreated). It's never specified what exactly Kyle means by "undo." Kyle also never mentions confronting Parallax. All you have here is baseless speculation.

How is this baseless speculation? Ion directly stated to the Spectre that he is capable making Parallax nonexistent. It doesn't matter how. Spectre clearly agreed that he CAN, and that's what's important. If Parallax and Ion were in the face to face fight, Ion can use the same tactic. There is no implication that Parallax can resist this. I'll put it like this: when the battle between Parallax and Ion starts, Ion immediately tries to make Parallax nonexistent by using whatever time control he has. How would Parallax resist?

@Onemoreposter said:

No. Parallax started out with the sum of the power from the CPB. However, In my above scans Hal says he then traveled through the time stream and absorbed anomalous energies left over from COIE and the Anti-Monitor. The sum of these energies gave him vast control over chronal energy allowing him to easily manipulate time/space.

This I can agree with. Nonetheless, Ion also absorbed power from elsewhere. Parallax may have had the chronal energies, but Ion absorbed Oblivion's power. My point is that It doesn't matter the power source. An individual's power source can be very inconsistent with his/her feats.

@Onemoreposter said:

I'm not being extreme. He never did display any time manipulation. His contemplation doesn't mean squat. Just because he thinks about a thing doesn't mean he could do a thing easily. HOG might've of said he could changed the past without affecting the future but he never did. Also, Parallax never tried to do this so we don't know if he could or couldn't. You're just making more empty speculation.

Seriously, you are becoming even more extreme than before. Spectre fully agreed that Ion can change the past without affecting the future. Why are you still denying it? Go back and reread the comic. If Ion really did changed the past then it would have defeated the moral purpose of the entire arc.

The following scan is one you've posted before. Parallax clearly states in it that he had to make sure a younger version of himself is at the proper time, so that it would not get destroyed by entropy waves. This means that Parallax's past self is tied to his future self. If he died in the past, then he wouldn't exist in the future. It is not the same for Ion. Ion clearly stated to the Spectre that he is able to "change everything that's happened without affecting everything that will be." Again, don't just counter by saying he didn't actually do it in action. If he did it would have defeated the moral purpose of the story.

@Onemoreposter said:

There is no evidence Kyle can do any of things you're supposing he can, because he has never done any of it.

I really want to refrain from insulting, but you are almost flaunting your negligence of everything I say. Seriously, even if you didn't read the Ion arc you should at least know some things, and if you did read it then you're just ignoring stuff. Throughout the Ion arc, Ion clearly had many many versions of him across the universe, so how do you suppose that Parallax destroy all of them? Are you still saying there is no evidence to prove that Kyle can be nearly omnipresent? In fact there is more evidence but I'm too tired to find all of them.

The fact that Spectre agrees with what Kyle says is proof that he can undo Zero Hour. I mean, do you actually need him to physically undo Zero Hour for you to believe this? If he really did it, then Spectre would have failed to convince Ion and the entire story would have been useless.

Lastly, I forgot to address this last time. You keep on bringing up Parallax's feats>>Ion's feats. That is NOT a valid comparison in this case. Parallax is a villain, and villains always have better feats than nonvillains. The only character in DC who's on the good side and can be argued to have done beyond what Ion's capable of is Spectre. Seriously, you can't compare feats between a good guy and a villain, because their purposes in story are very different. A villain is meant to cause destruction, but a good guy is used to show morals.

@Onemoreposter said:

@eisjfiejss said:

Nothing in this scan suggests time manipulation. All we know for sure is that Kyle has been watching Jade (in real time) and he cannot be seen.

I never said this is time manipulation. It does prove that Kyle can exist in multiple segments of time. It also proves that Kyle is beyond time, because essentially what this means is he is outside of time watching reality. That is why everyone cannot see him.

#19 Posted by lol (4079 posts) - - Show Bio

Hal

#20 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (4271 posts) - - Show Bio

stomp for Hal.

#21 Posted by dondave (34674 posts) - - Show Bio

Harold