Since it's to the death. Juggy and Cyttorak win since they can't die. Anyway Tenebrous and Aegis can't beat Cyttorak (his more powerful than them since he is at least as powerful as Vishanti). On the other hand each of them can solo 8th Day Juggy (Surfer chanelling the power of The Crunch was a plot device and no being lesser than abstract or high level skyfather should beat Proemial gods).
cyttorak will destroy these proemial entities with ease. these two can't even harm 8th day, although they can kick him around like an indestructible ball, but when he turns into trion, he'll be punching holes in them bigger than the holes of stephen hawking's black hole theory was! no bfr??? you just took away the only possibility to defeat juggernaut to push cyttorak back into the crimson cosmos.
Well Juggernaut can't be absolute invulnerable, otherwise his power would surpass Cyttorak, who is the source of his power.
If you are a being that surpasses Cyttorak you would be able to break Juggs in half with your bare hands.
I made this thread because so many people thought Galactus would beat Cyttorak, and if that were the case, then Juggernaut would be physically defeat-able if the opponents exceed Cyttorak.
Well Juggernaut can't be absolute invulnerable, otherwise his power would surpass Cyttorak, who is the source of his power.
If you are a being that surpasses Cyttorak you would be able to break Juggs in half with your bare hands.
I made this thread because so many people thought Galactus would beat Cyttorak, and if that were the case, then Juggernaut would be physically defeat-able if the opponents exceed Cyttorak.
cyttorak will destroy these proemial entities with ease. these two can't even harm 8th day, although they can kick him around like an indestructible ball, but when he turns into trion, he'll be punching holes in them bigger than the holes of stephen hawking's black hole theory was! no bfr??? you just took away the only possibility to defeat juggernaut to push cyttorak back into the crimson cosmos.
But they might do other things to 8th day juggy. You forget that they posses a cosmic awarense. It would tell them that Juggy is invurnable so they would go for mind -raping. But question is : Do they outclass Bedlam in telephatic power, given the fact that they suppose to be equal to Galactus i say that they theoreticly should (abstract > demi god in every aspect). Anyway i forgot about disabled BFR when a posted.
Also fact is that Stonecutter's creation (machine that was going to take out the free will, basicly to undone the work of Apple from Eden :-) ) was decribed by Thor as possesing power equal to Odin. Juggy was uneffected by it's mystical energies, and him and Stonecutter trashed it like it was nothing. Besides when battled Stonecutter and Juggy were totaly imune to telepathic attack, so your point might be 100 % right Lance.
But still i don't see how can demi-god be > abstract ?
P.S. Check my topic about Fear Itself and Cyttorak on Juggy's page (actually Juggy's forum on his page). I would like to hear you're opinion.
Well Juggernaut can't be absolute invulnerable, otherwise his power would surpass Cyttorak, who is the source of his power.
If you are a being that surpasses Cyttorak you would be able to break Juggs in half with your bare hands.
I made this thread because so many people thought Galactus would beat Cyttorak, and if that were the case, then Juggernaut would be physically defeat-able if the opponents exceed Cyttorak.
Well Juggernaut can't be absolute invulnerable, otherwise his power would surpass Cyttorak, who is the source of his power.
If you are a being that surpasses Cyttorak you would be able to break Juggs in half with your bare hands.
I made this thread because so many people thought Galactus would beat Cyttorak, and if that were the case, then Juggernaut would be physically defeat-able if the opponents exceed Cyttorak.
every now and then cyttorak gives juggernaut trial runs where juggernaut fights a metaphoric manifestation of a physical spec of cyttorak ( notice i used "a" instead of "the" ) to see if cain is still worthy of holding the title of juggernaut. if cyttorak really wanted to destroy cain, he can at an instant, but that would defeat the whole purpose of having an avatar. say if tenebrous were holding juggernaut's legs and aegis was holding onto juggernaut's neck and both of them were tugging in opposite directions in an attempt to rip him in half, they would tire and fail... because juggernaut is not made out of atoms. he is not made out of gravity, weak force, strong force and electromagetism. any power fundamental to a reality, he is constructed out of crimson magic.
pay attention to the box panel to the bottom left corner. "molecule upon molecule or whatever passes as the same thing"
without bfr, the two promiel entities can somehow contain 8th day for some time, but it will be an attempt of delaying the inevitable. if there is no bfr, 8th day will eventually win, even if it takes him 100 years.
P.S whoever told you people that T n A were as powerful as Galactus lied to you. They defeated him one time and that was with a ton of prep and a well thought out plan hatched by Thanos and annilious.
Galactus killed every single primordial god, he left T n A alive as a show of mercy and just imprisoned them for a few billion years. Galactus>>>T&A
cyttorak will destroy these proemial entities with ease. these two can't even harm 8th day, although they can kick him around like an indestructible ball, but when he turns into trion, he'll be punching holes in them bigger than the holes of stephen hawking's black hole theory was! no bfr??? you just took away the only possibility to defeat juggernaut to push cyttorak back into the crimson cosmos.
But they might do other things to 8th day juggy. You forget that they posses a cosmic awarense. It would tell them that Juggy is invurnable so they would go for mind -raping. But question is : Do they outclass Bedlam in telephatic power, given the fact that they suppose to be equal to Galactus i say that they theoreticly should (abstract > demi god in every aspect). Anyway i forgot about disabled BFR when a posted. Also fact is that Stonecutter's creation (machine that was going to take out the free will, basicly to undone the work of Apple from Eden :-) ) was decribed by Thor as possesing power equal to Odin. Juggy was uneffected by it's mystical energies, and him and Stonecutter trashed it like it was nothing. Besides when battled Stonecutter and Juggy were totaly imune to telepathic attack, so your point might be 100 % right Lance. But still i don't see how can demi-god be > abstract ? P.S. Check my topic about Fear Itself and Cyttorak on Juggy's page (actually Juggy's forum on his page). I would like to hear you're opinion.
i will get back to the mind thing... give me a moment... basically when it comes to mind raping cain, it takes a "special" kind of telepath to do this.... we know only two of thee special cases and i will tell you about it after these messages we'll be riiiight bback...
Well Juggernaut can't be absolute invulnerable, otherwise his power would surpass Cyttorak, who is the source of his power.
If you are a being that surpasses Cyttorak you would be able to break Juggs in half with your bare hands.
I made this thread because so many people thought Galactus would beat Cyttorak, and if that were the case, then Juggernaut would be physically defeat-able if the opponents exceed Cyttorak.
No things in Marvel work different. Anyone killed is subject to the Death(evident when he was the same badass even as skeleton, could walk and talk) and anyone deleted from existance is subject to Oblivion. Juggernuat was stated several times as immortal and unkillable and Oblivion couldn't effect him. So he isn't subject to Death and Oblivion. Since Cyttorak is his power source that means that Cyttorak isn't subject to Death and Oblivion also.
Classic Juggernuat has been stated numorous times as indestructible and totaly invurnable to physical harm. He can't be hurt physicly, but with magic you can hurt him (evident when D'Spayre reduced him with Crimson Magic to skeleton and Shatterstar pirced his head with sword , she actually stabbed him through the eye). Fact is that this hurting with magic does nothing, since even as a skeleton he was the same badass and his eye (and brain since sword was putted deep) well it regenerate almost instantly. Anyway writer(s) apologized about this incident with Shatterstar to fans and declare it non-canon. You can ask users Lance Bastro and Kenshiroo, one of them posted scan confirming that.
cyttorak will destroy these proemial entities with ease. these two can't even harm 8th day, although they can kick him around like an indestructible ball, but when he turns into trion, he'll be punching holes in them bigger than the holes of stephen hawking's black hole theory was! no bfr??? you just took away the only possibility to defeat juggernaut to push cyttorak back into the crimson cosmos.
But they might do other things to 8th day juggy. You forget that they posses a cosmic awarense. It would tell them that Juggy is invurnable so they would go for mind -raping. But question is : Do they outclass Bedlam in telephatic power, given the fact that they suppose to be equal to Galactus i say that they theoreticly should (abstract > demi god in every aspect). Anyway i forgot about disabled BFR when a posted. Also fact is that Stonecutter's creation (machine that was going to take out the free will, basicly to undone the work of Apple from Eden :-) ) was decribed by Thor as possesing power equal to Odin. Juggy was uneffected by it's mystical energies, and him and Stonecutter trashed it like it was nothing. Besides when battled Stonecutter and Juggy were totaly imune to telepathic attack, so your point might be 100 % right Lance. But still i don't see how can demi-god be > abstract ? P.S. Check my topic about Fear Itself and Cyttorak on Juggy's page (actually Juggy's forum on his page). I would like to hear you're opinion.
i will get back to the mind thing... give me a moment... basically when it comes to mind raping cain, it takes a "special" kind of telepath to do this.... we know only two of thee special cases and i will tell you about it after these messages we'll be riiiight bback...
Thats simply not true, Jean and professor X were able to navigate his twisted mind and stop him, they did this because prof X did not want to harm him. If his helmet is off a high lvl telepath can simply fry his brain, Prof X and Jean could have done the exact same thing.
cyttorak will destroy these proemial entities with ease. these two can't even harm 8th day, although they can kick him around like an indestructible ball, but when he turns into trion, he'll be punching holes in them bigger than the holes of stephen hawking's black hole theory was! no bfr??? you just took away the only possibility to defeat juggernaut to push cyttorak back into the crimson cosmos.
But they might do other things to 8th day juggy. You forget that they posses a cosmic awarense. It would tell them that Juggy is invurnable so they would go for mind -raping. But question is : Do they outclass Bedlam in telephatic power, given the fact that they suppose to be equal to Galactus i say that they theoreticly should (abstract > demi god in every aspect). Anyway i forgot about disabled BFR when a posted. Also fact is that Stonecutter's creation (machine that was going to take out the free will, basicly to undone the work of Apple from Eden :-) ) was decribed by Thor as possesing power equal to Odin. Juggy was uneffected by it's mystical energies, and him and Stonecutter trashed it like it was nothing. Besides when battled Stonecutter and Juggy were totaly imune to telepathic attack, so your point might be 100 % right Lance. But still i don't see how can demi-god be > abstract ? P.S. Check my topic about Fear Itself and Cyttorak on Juggy's page (actually Juggy's forum on his page). I would like to hear you're opinion.
i will get back to the mind thing... give me a moment... basically when it comes to mind raping cain, it takes a "special" kind of telepath to do this.... we know only two of thee special cases and i will tell you about it after these messages we'll be riiiight bback...
Thats simply not true, Jean and professor X were able to navigate his twisted mind and stop him, they did this because prof X did not want to harm him. If his helmet is off a high lvl telepath can simply fry his brain, Prof X and Jean could have done the exact same thing.
those are the two special cases... i will get back to this... let me collect my items 1st.
Thats simply not true, Jean and professor X were able to navigate his twisted mind and stop him, they did this because prof X did not want to harm him. If his helmet is off a high lvl telepath can simply fry his brain, Prof X and Jean could have done the exact same thing.
First of all this is 8th day Juggernaut not Classic. 8th Day Juggernaut is more powerfull than Classic at least 100 times (stated on panel). Bedlam >>>>>>>>>>>>> Prof X (shown on panel) in terms of telepathic power couldn't effect 8th Day Juggy when he went serious with Stonecutter, so using Prof X and Jean for argument will make no point (plus things you stated in post are twisted facts, his brain can't be fried at classic levels, but that really is of topic now). You said that T 'n' A are inferior to Galactus ok.
I ask you how will they take this easily if Galactus (along with Classic Strange, Surfer and Nova) could't do anything to stop Cyttorak from kidnaping them from 616 (main) universe to his Crimson Cosmos. Galactus couldn't escape from Crimson Cosmos on his own. Cyttorak later let them out because Strange convinced him. Even Infinity Gauntlet was no concern to Cyttorak. fact that Eternity was in great danger was of no interest to Cyttorak(confirming that Cyttorak isn't part of Eternity, like Proemial Gods for example - since they belong to 616 universe). This happened in Infinity War # 44
Galactus stealmated (was going to be defeated - stated on panel) by Agamotto who didn't even used full power and was about to used but other Vishanti intevented. Agamotto isn't even the most powerful member of Vishanti. Full might of Vishanti is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> full might of Agamotto, and Full might of Vishanti is <= Cyttorak.
Even futhere Vishanti fought Slorioth th Omnivorus who was going to kill the Eternity and LT intervented since side effect of Slorioth vs Vishanti was going to destroy the universe.
Crimson Magics of Cyttorak were destroying the entire realm/dimension/universe (it was called by all 3 names so i posted it like this) of TRion (extra dimensional gods). So I ask you how will T and A defeat Cyttorak ?
P.S whoever told you people that T n A were as powerful as Galactus lied to you. They defeated him one time and that was with a ton of prep and a well thought out plan hatched by Thanos and annilious. Galactus killed every single primordial god, he left T n A alive as a show of mercy and just imprisoned them for a few billion years. Galactus>>>T&A Team one stomps.
Thats simply not true, Jean and professor X were able to navigate his twisted mind and stop him, they did this because prof X did not want to harm him. If his helmet is off a high lvl telepath can simply fry his brain, Prof X and Jean could have done the exact same thing.
First of all this is 8th day Juggernaut not Classic. 8th Day Juggernaut is more powerfull than Classic at least 100 times (stated on panel). Bedlam >>>>>>>>>>>>> Prof X (shown on panel) in terms of telepathic power couldn't effect 8th Day Juggy when he went serious with Stonecutter, so using Prof X and Jean for argument will make no point (plus things you stated in post are twisted facts, his brain can't be fried at classic levels, but that really is of topic now). You said that T 'n' A are inferior to Galactus ok.
I ask you how will they take this easily if Galactus (along with Classic Strange, Surfer and Nova) could't do anything to stop Cyttorak from kidnaping them from 616 (main) universe to his Crimson Cosmos. Galactus couldn't escape from Crimson Cosmos on his own. Cyttorak later let them out because Strange convinced him. Even Infinity Gauntlet was no concern to Cyttorak. fact that Eternity was in great danger was of no interest to Cyttorak(confirming that Cyttorak isn't part of Eternity, like Proemial Gods for example - since they belong to 616 universe). This happened in Infinity War # 44 Galactus stealmated (was going to be defeated - stated on panel) by Agamotto who didn't even used full power and was about to used but other Vishanti intevented. Agamotto isn't even the most powerful member of Vishanti. Full might of Vishanti is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> full might of Agamotto, and Full might of Vishanti is <= Cyttorak. Even futhere Vishanti fought Slorioth th Omnivorus who was going to kill the Eternity and LT intervented since side effect of Slorioth vs Vishanti was going to destroy the universe. Crimson Magics of Cyttorak were destroying the entire realm/dimension/universe (it was called by all 3 names so i posted it like this) of TRion (extra dimensional gods). So I ask you how will T and A defeat Cyttorak ?
Juggernaut with his helmet is imune to telepathy so it wouldnt matter if he was 50 billion times more powerful than professor x. Galactus didnt try, he was curious and sent Nova and Strange to look around. The I.G was no threat to Cyttorak because its powwer was not directed at him, he resides outside the normal universe and is not part of eternity, if Thanos while in possesion wanted Cyttorak dead he would have traveled to his dimension and killed him. Aggamotto faced a very sick and weak Galactus, his power fluctuats greatly while in these states. I do not know why I replied to this post, everything you just stated is known by everyone and most of it has nothing to do with this thread or what I said,
All I said in my post was Galactus >>> T n A and that a powerful telepath could defeat JuggsIF HIS HELMET WAS REMOVED.
Juggernaut with his helmet is imune to telepathy so it wouldnt matter if he was 50 billion times more powerful than professor x. Galactus didnt try, he was curious and sent Nova and Strange to look around. The I.G was no threat to Cyttorak because its powwer was not directed at him, he resides outside the normal universe and is not part of eternity, if Thanos while in possesion wanted Cyttorak dead he would have traveled to his dimension and killed him. Aggamotto faced a very sick and weak Galactus, his power fluctuats greatly while in these states. I do not know why I replied to this post, everything you just stated is known by everyone and most of it has nothing to do with this thread or what I said,
All I said in my post was Galactus >>> T n A and that a powerful telepath could defeat JuggsIF HIS HELMET WAS REMOVED.
This is 8th Day Juggernaut, not Classic. He doens't have weakneses like Classic. Galactus didn't try ? They were on extremly important mission and for sure he tried, sicne all the time Strange, and Nova were held by Cyttorak, Galactus was ploting how to escape from Crimson Cosmos.
Galactus wasn't very sick and weak when fought Agamotto, he was well fed (this confirms that you're unfamilliar with isue and yet you post things about it). Cyttorak can't be killed or deleted from existance, he can be for sure overpowered by forces more powerful than him- it's logical, but we have yet to see what are forces more powerful than him (except TOAA and Tribunal- although Lance will disagree with this one).
And you also said team one stomps. So it has to do with what you said.
I don't know why my text keeps disappearing every time I post, but two posts above I have the scans of Aegis & Tenebrous stated as beings equal to Galactus.
Also the other panel says Galactus' used the power of the crunch against them, which to me sounds like he is utilizing some of his tech to imprison them, as a opposed to say, just walking into a fight against them and seeing who wins.
P.S whoever told you people that T n A were as powerful as Galactus lied to you. They defeated him one time and that was with a ton of prep and a well thought out plan hatched by Thanos and annilious. Galactus killed every single primordial god, he left T n A alive as a show of mercy and just imprisoned them for a few billion years. Galactus>>>T&A Team one stomps.
Thanks for the scans man XD. That is an extremely weakend Galactus shown there, he did not even reconize the Silver Surfer. Galactus was the one who first imprisioned both T n A as said by himself in that scan. I have more scans to show but not on this PC, Sorry :)
If you need later confermation of the power levels they both generate during the TI story arc A was killed by the canvcerverse minions, T tucked tail and ran along with the Celestails on the battle field including Arshiem the judge leaving Galactus the only big gun left to hold the line.
Couldn't the same be said of T&A though? They could be weakened from the years of imprisonment. I figure if a statement like "they are equal" is made, it means the writer doesn't want to bog down on expositions and keep it concise, and let the reader take it at face value that they are on the same tier; as one might be stronger than the other, but the difference is miniscule enough that a fight could go both ways.
Juggernaut with his helmet is imune to telepathy so it wouldnt matter if he was 50 billion times more powerful than professor x. Galactus didnt try, he was curious and sent Nova and Strange to look around. The I.G was no threat to Cyttorak because its powwer was not directed at him, he resides outside the normal universe and is not part of eternity, if Thanos while in possesion wanted Cyttorak dead he would have traveled to his dimension and killed him. Aggamotto faced a very sick and weak Galactus, his power fluctuats greatly while in these states. I do not know why I replied to this post, everything you just stated is known by everyone and most of it has nothing to do with this thread or what I said,
All I said in my post was Galactus >>> T n A and that a powerful telepath could defeat JuggsIF HIS HELMET WAS REMOVED.
This is 8th Day Juggernaut, not Classic. He doens't have weakneses like Classic. Galactus didn't try ? They were on extremly important mission and for sure he tried, sicne all the time Strange, and Nova were held by Cyttorak, Galactus was ploting how to escape from Crimson Cosmos.
Galactus wasn't very sick and weak when fought Agamotto, he was well fed (this confirms that you're unfamilliar with isue and yet you post things about it). Cyttorak can't be killed or deleted from existance, he can be for sure overpowered by forces more powerful than him- it's logical, but we have yet to see what are forces more powerful than him (except TOAA and Tribunal- although Lance will disagree with this one).
And you also said team one stomps. So it has to do with what you said.
Says who? Do you have a scan of his helmet removed and someone trying to mind rape him, if you do please enlighten me. No, he did not, show me scans of an enraged Galactus trying to get out of the crimson Cosmos or going after Cyttorak (the source) for that matter.. BTW the reason they escaped is because juggernaut beat Cyttorak into a coma and removed the jem from his head thus cutting Juggs own power source off, he was then forced to put the jem back in and revive Cyttorak from that coma. Cyttorak agreed to let them go if they agreed to spread his fame. When they returned to Galactus he was still there just chillin, they even joked about it.
Show some scans of this if I am wrong about aggamotto and not select extracts of the comic the story line in its entirety, if you do you may feel a bit silly.
I do agree with you on this point however he has yet to battle anyone that is a high end powerhouse, not even a sky-father level being to date so his limits are still unknown.
I havent read all of them yet but in fear itself wasnt the Juggernaut possed by an Asgardian hammer that superseided Cyttorak's control over him? Like I said I havent read them all yet so I'm asking this question.
I will be the first one to say this so here you go. You sometimes do make some good points, some I may agree with and some I disagree so from now on lets forgo the trolling and be civil, that goes both ways XD.
cyttorak will destroy these proemial entities with ease. these two can't even harm 8th day, although they can kick him around like an indestructible ball, but when he turns into trion, he'll be punching holes in them bigger than the holes of stephen hawking's black hole theory was! no bfr??? you just took away the only possibility to defeat juggernaut to push cyttorak back into the crimson cosmos.
But they might do other things to 8th day juggy. You forget that they posses a cosmic awarense. It would tell them that Juggy is invurnable so they would go for mind -raping. But question is : Do they outclass Bedlam in telephatic power, given the fact that they suppose to be equal to Galactus i say that they theoreticly should (abstract > demi god in every aspect). Anyway i forgot about disabled BFR when a posted. Also fact is that Stonecutter's creation (machine that was going to take out the free will, basicly to undone the work of Apple from Eden :-) ) was decribed by Thor as possesing power equal to Odin. Juggy was uneffected by it's mystical energies, and him and Stonecutter trashed it like it was nothing. Besides when battled Stonecutter and Juggy were totaly imune to telepathic attack, so your point might be 100 % right Lance. But still i don't see how can demi-god be > abstract ? P.S. Check my topic about Fear Itself and Cyttorak on Juggy's page (actually Juggy's forum on his page). I would like to hear you're opinion.
cosmic awareness is like knowing what's going down in a cosmic shift, but it doesn't necessarily mean, "i know every move you're making before you do it." if this were the case, galactus' can't even jobber. he would be a winner every time. but no.. it's different and galactus can probe minds just as these two can as well, however... the key word is "probing".... meaning read to learn how it ticks.... the conscious is more complicated than it seems, this is why xavier had to take several years to know the short cuts to cain's mind to. yet, there are still places he can not roam in fact, xavier wishes not to enter that unknown area of cain because he is afraid that he will be lost forever inside the consciousness of either cain or the crimson cosmos... (the crimson cosmos is a consciousness of its own). so the only places xavier walks in inside cain's mind, is only the "humanity" side of cain marko... this is the area xavier exploits to attack cain when he is the juggernaut. and the reason why and how xavier knows the way to get in this part of the mind is because xavier and cain knew eachother since they were 11. and there's a huge 20 year gap of unknown areas xavier walks in because remember.... cain's consciousness was stuck inside the crimson cosmos and his body was trapped under trillions of mountain for a good 20 plus years.... (keep in mind that cain looks 20 years younger than xavier too)
xavier passed this "info of cain's past" to jean grey, because she is the 2nd telepath in the x-men. keep in mind that jean could not do anything to the juggernaut until AFTER the fake death of charles xavier. ever since xavier helped jean with her abilities and passing her the keys, jean was able to defeat the juggernaut with her powers.... (will continue with this subject with bedlam)
cosmic awareness vs eye from the outside....
on my old argument (chthon vs cyttorak), i explained the extra-dimension and it's relevancy to the 11 spatial dimensions. galactus is 5th to maybe 7th dimensional in a consciousness scale.... but his entire being is locked into the area of the power cosmics... this means he is effective only at the area of the 3rd dimension, but he has a comic awareness that let's him sense other things like what is happening at the 4th, 5th up to the 7th dimension.... but eventhough he can sense it, doesn't mean he can do anything about it.... cyttorak on the other hand is somewhere between the 7th to 11th dimension. meaning he is the eye that looks down on sheets of paper with letters written on it. when trion juggernaut became trion he had this awareness... (the EYE from outside) and was smashing up realities just to get to the trion reality.
remember that dark place xavior doesn't want to open up inside cain's mind.... he believe's this is were cyttorak's 12.5% essences is of the crimson gem of cyttorak. if he wakes that, juggernaut would be able to see pretty much everything from a bird's eye view, just like the scans below.... (as examples):
now... speaking of bedlam....
bedlam is beeeeeyyyyyooooonddd!!!! xavier in telepathy! she is able to use it's powers to pierce right through juggernaut's helmet just like jean (the phoenix) can.... but the difference between her and the phoenix is that, jean know's how cain' mind works thanks to xavier AND her helping him out during the onslaught saga... here are scans that prove that WILL POWER out weights mental powers depending on the circumstances.
bedlam seemingly doesn't have the time to probe juggernaut's mind, let alone breaching into his will power since it is greater than her own.... and cain has super will power thanks to the trials of cyttorak. so even if aegis and tenebrous had vast mental powers, they would need two things... to probe the mind of juggernaut 1st (given time if he allows it) and to fight off his immense will power that is supposedly backed up by cyttorak... another event to keep note is how oblivion tried to trick cain to let go of his will. but even though oblivion partially managed to shake some of that will off, all he was able to do was age cain into an old man, but was unable to kill him nor cease his existence... oblivion is a power telepath too and so is nightmare, but the two could not defeat his mind which is why i say the TWO SPECIAL CASES ARE XAVIER AND JEAN GREY.
Couldn't the same be said of T&A though? They could be weakened from the years of imprisonment. I figure if a statement like "they are equal" is made, it means the writer doesn't want to bog down on expositions and keep it concise, and let the reader take it at face value that they are on the same tier; as one might be stronger than the other, but the difference is miniscule enough that a fight could go both ways.
Well T & A were both tapping into another power source that enhanced there powers so they are now a bit weaker. Dont get me wrong, they are not leagues below Galactus but they are not quite up on his level. they also do not have many showing show casing there abilities so its hard to compare them in battles against others, much like Cyttorak.
In those scans Galactus was nearly dead at that point, in the end of that story he had to absorb energy of a huge star cutting its lifespan down to next to nothing just to re gain the energy to keep him alive. Keep in mind that Galactus only consumes what he needs to survive, He is all over the place though so its hard to gauge his power at any given time. At full power he is arguibly at (616) Eternity level.
every now and then cyttorak gives juggernaut trial runs where juggernaut fights a metaphoric manifestation of a physical spec of cyttorak ( notice i used "a" instead of "the" ) to see if cain is still worthy of holding the title of juggernaut. if cyttorak really wanted to destroy cain, he can at an instant, but that would defeat the whole purpose of having an avatar. say if tenebrous were holding juggernaut's legs and aegis was holding onto juggernaut's neck and both of them were tugging in opposite directions in an attempt to rip him in half, they would tire and fail... because juggernaut is not made out of atoms. he is not made out of gravity, weak force, strong force and electromagetism. any power fundamental to a reality, he is constructed out of crimson magic.
That seems kind of a cop-out explanation. That's just saying magical enchantments makes things invulnerable (unless countered by magic?)
Also didn't Onslaught tear out Juggernaut's gem? He shouldn't be a magical entity; it must have been done with psionic energy. That seems to indicate you can substitute damage types with sufficient energy.
For example, the Ultimate Nullifier should be able to kill Juggernaut right? That would be all physical force, enough to create the big bang.
every now and then cyttorak gives juggernaut trial runs where juggernaut fights a metaphoric manifestation of a physical spec of cyttorak ( notice i used "a" instead of "the" ) to see if cain is still worthy of holding the title of juggernaut. if cyttorak really wanted to destroy cain, he can at an instant, but that would defeat the whole purpose of having an avatar. say if tenebrous were holding juggernaut's legs and aegis was holding onto juggernaut's neck and both of them were tugging in opposite directions in an attempt to rip him in half, they would tire and fail... because juggernaut is not made out of atoms. he is not made out of gravity, weak force, strong force and electromagetism. any power fundamental to a reality, he is constructed out of crimson magic.
That seems kind of a cop-out explanation. That's just saying magical enchantments makes things invulnerable (unless countered by magic?) Also didn't Onslaught tear out Juggernaut's gem? He shouldn't be a magical entity; it must have been done with psionic energy. That seems to indicate you can substitute damage types with sufficient energy. For example, the Ultimate Nullifier should be able to kill Juggernaut right? That would be all physical force, enough to create the big bang.
That seems kind of a cop-out explanation. That's just saying magical enchantments makes things invulnerable (unless countered by magic?)
this is partially true. it's not only about the level of magic, it's also about the comprehension of magic and frankly, tenebrous and aegis can't comprehend it....meaning that.... they can not study it to the point of learning it. they are only aware of it. the reason i say this is because of dr. doom. if not for dr. doom's study and explanation of the mystic arts compared to science i would not have concluded this. but look at it this way, dr. doom was a scientist. he strives to be the best, but always found himself 2nd place (under reed), out of countless endeavor he turned to the arts of magic following his roots of his gypsy parents. but he tried to perfect it knowing that he never can..... so he uses dr. strange as a target of his goal.... if he can at least be on par to dr. strange in the mystic arts, he would be satisfied. dr. doom went through a billion years of training (time hopping) trying to become the top wizard, but couldn't... because he has learned that the extra-dimensional area is far beyond his comprehension. all he can do to gain that power is by invoking these higher entities. cyttorak is one of them. and doom has a respect for cyttorak since he (like strange) was imprisoned by cyttorak as well. he even tried to siphon the juggernaut's power once and failed. and forevermore, never attempted doing it again.
the reason why is.... due to dr. doom's pride, he would rather gain a power that is under his complete control ie: power cosmic, cosmic cube, IG, heart of the universe rather than BECOMING an avatar of another being. doom wants no master basically... that's why we don't see dr. doom hunting down the juggernaut or traveling back in time to take the crimson gem to himself. he can't comprehend all of the power and he doesn't want to be a slave for something else.
Also didn't Onslaught tear out Juggernaut's gem? He shouldn't be a magical entity; it must have been done with psionic energy.
this has been discussed several times in this forum already. let's go back to the beginning of the onslaught saga.... after xavier mind wiped and absorbed magneto's mind, his (alter ego) went after the juggernaut more times than once.... the alterego was catching juggernaut in his dreams asking juggernaut to be a recruit of some new world order.... juggernaut refused and the shadow figure later reviled as xavier (walking ---- a dead give away that this is in cain's mind in a dream). xavier leaves cain in the bar and juggernaut wakes up inside a small shack..... juggernaut realizes something is wrong and says, "stay out of my head... whatever you are... you're telepathic powers are far more powerful than charles...." in the next issue, juggernaut is flinged from one state to another.... the x-men try to figure it out, but it is later hinted that it was the power of magneto through charles. juggernaut gets help from jean grey, but by this time onslaught had already absorbed nate grey. when juggernaut felt the familiar power he freaked out, and ran away from jean straight into the office of charles xavier. this is when onslaught reveals itself casting the illusion that he ripped out the gem off of juggernaut's chest....
but see.... this is how we know it was an illusion...
juggernaut did not have his helmet on, he took it off so that jean can help by unlocking the memory of events of cain's dream of xavier when xavier asked him to be a recruit of the new cause.
the gem is not really a physical object. needless to say, a physical object that is embedded inside cain... the reason why is because the gem can materialize out of thin air when ever it pleases... cain threw that gem in space and the next moment later, it is inside his drawer in his bed room....
it doesn't make sense that cain can be the juggernaut when the gem is floating in space, but then again he is weaker when it is shown to be inside of his chest 0_0
the onslaught series was pretty confusing because the artist was using ALOT of illusions..... onslaught tricked jeans for awhile too with these illusions that even tricked it's readers.... do you remember onslaught crushing the phoenix force with it's hand??? that was also an illusion.... and so was the gem being ripped off of cain marko.
what the arc intended: was that xavier used a scare tactic to weaken the will power of cain marko so that he can induce fear into himself.... if cain is fearful, the power of cyttorak will reject that emotion and absorb it..... this is why cain ended up inside the crimson cosmos. cyttorak sucked in cain's consciousness back for more trails, but due to cain's cowardice, the two crimson dawn monks had to literally help cain regain his will power back. and afterwards, cain is fighting cyttorak again and beats cyttorak... cyttorak allows cain to become the juggernaut again and juggernaut finds himself waking up as the juggernaut...
now the point of the whole onslaught thing was: onslaught knew that juggernaut would be a problem.... this is why xavier tried to recruit juggernaut from the get go at the very beginning of the onslaught saga, but since juggernaut refused, onslaught needed a way to get rid of juggernaut.... this was his prep-time... to make juggernaut not be a future problem.....
That seems to indicate you can substitute damage types with sufficient energy. For example, the Ultimate Nullifier should be able to kill Juggernaut right? That would be all physical force, enough to create the big bang.
i doubt it can.... the beyonder scanned the juggernaut before..... and decided that the only ways to physically get rid of him was to teleport him away from the battle field.... a big bang would push juggernaut but it will not disintegrate him if that's what you're asking...
Says who? Do you have a scan of his helmet removed and someone trying to mind rape him, if you do please enlighten me. No, he did not, show me scans of an enraged Galactus trying to get out of the crimson Cosmos or going after Cyttorak (the source) for that matter.. BTW the reason they escaped is because juggernaut beat Cyttorak into a coma and removed the jem from his head thus cutting Juggs own power source off, he was then forced to put the jem back in and revive Cyttorak from that coma. Cyttorak agreed to let them go if they agreed to spread his fame. When they returned to Galactus he was still there just chillin, they even joked about it. Show some scans of this if I am wrong about aggamotto and not select extracts of the comic the story line in its entirety, if you do you may feel a bit silly. I do agree with you on this point however he has yet to battle anyone that is a high end powerhouse, not even a sky-father level being to date so his limits are still unknown. I havent read all of them yet but in fear itself wasnt the Juggernaut possed by an Asgardian hammer that superseided Cyttorak's control over him? Like I said I havent read them all yet so I'm asking this question. I will be the first one to say this so here you go. You sometimes do make some good points, some I may agree with and some I disagree so from now on lets forgo the trolling and be civil, that goes both ways XD.
About Juggy knocking Cyttorak, later in isue it was revield that Cyttorak let him do that on purpose (Lance Bastro has the scan). Furthere God Aspect of Cyttorak falling in coma from gem lose doesn't make sense, since: - Crimson Gem is creation of Destructive aspect of Cyttorak (the demon looking one). He ripped a part of his own heart and made a gem. That aspect, which is titled as his most destructive aspect(indicating that there are more aspects) was actually imprisoned inside of the gem, unlike the God aspect who was in Crimson Cosmos, and could go out of it on his own will (evident in War Of Seven Spheres) - Ripping part of his own heart had no effect on Destructive Aspect.
What is even more interesting is the fact that both (all) aspects appear to be sentinent beings on their own. For example Destructive Aspect was sent to temple in Korea by Cyttorak (original). That furthere implicates that Cyttorak persona (power) has been devided into several aspects, which are sentinent on their own, and one aspect (God aspect) is >= Vishanti.
Here is the scan which confirms this (about aspects)
Note the paragraph, renegade monks summoning Cyttorak. Or furthere confirmation (about two aspects)
And i have already made a topic about Serpent recruitiing Juggy, and Cyttorak no where to be seen
That seems kind of a cop-out explanation. That's just saying magical enchantments makes things invulnerable (unless countered by magic?) Also didn't Onslaught tear out Juggernaut's gem? He shouldn't be a magical entity; it must have been done with psionic energy. That seems to indicate you can substitute damage types with sufficient energy. For example, the Ultimate Nullifier should be able to kill Juggernaut right? That would be all physical force, enough to create the big bang.
UN deletes from existance. It doesn't kill. And when something is deleted from existance it becomes the subject of Oblivion. Oblivion is unable to effect Juggy, so UN shouldn't be able to do anything to Juggy either.
@CapitolPunishment:
Down there is the link of thread @Lance Bastro said:
@TheFallenOne said:
P.S. Check my topic about Fear Itself and Cyttorak on Juggy's page (actually Juggy's forum on his page). I would like to hear you're opinion.
ok. hold up. hmm can't find it! there are alot of "fear itself" topics, but none under your handle.
Cyttorak is only omnipotent within his own realm, and Juggernaut gains his powers from Cyttorak himself. Therefore, Juggernaut must be/should be massively inferior to Cyttorak in every way. If Cyttorak were to be in the canonical 616 universe where (I think) Aegis and Tenebrous are located, then Cyttorak would no longer be omnipotent. He would have a limit, but that limit would either be incalculable (isn't measured) or immeasurable (can't be measured). This would mean that Juggernaut must/should become weaker the longer Cyttorak is within the 616 universe. And in other words, Aegis and Tenebrous, being Premordial Gods (more powerful than Galactus, or just as), would be capable of destroying Cyttorak (together, at least), and destroy Juggernaut effortlessly (single-handedly). To me, it just wouldn't make sense if the A & T were in the Realm of Cyttorak.
No things in Marvel work different. Anyone killed is subject to the Death(evident when he was the same badass even as skeleton, could walk and talk) and anyone deleted from existance is subject to Oblivion. Juggernuat was stated several times as immortal and unkillable and Oblivion couldn't effect him.
Oblivion did affect him. Juggernaut aged rapidly when not playing by Oblivion's rules. The arguments about Oblivion being incapable of destroying Juggernaut are also massively overstated, since there is no proof he was making any genuine effort to do so, and the comic states that Oblivion just viewed him as something like an annoying bacteria.
Classic Juggernuat has been stated numorous times as indestructible and totaly invurnable to physical harm. He can't be hurt physicly, but with magic you can hurt him (evident when D'Spayre reduced him with Crimson Magic to skeleton and Shatterstar pirced his head with sword , she actually stabbed him through the eye).
Odin has been stated numerous times to be omnipotent. Doesn't make it true. Most of the enemies Juggernaut has gone up against are below Abstract level.
@TheFallenOne said:
I ask you how will they take this easily if Galactus (along with Classic Strange, Surfer and Nova) could't do anything to stop Cyttorak from kidnaping them from 616 (main) universe to his Crimson Cosmos. Galactus couldn't escape from Crimson Cosmos on his own. Cyttorak later let them out because Strange convinced him.
That's not what actually happened. Galactus could have left easily after a short time. He only stayed long enough for Dr. Strange and Nova to return because the Surfer begged him and even damaged his ship a little to prevent him from leaving.
Even Infinity Gauntlet was no concern to Cyttorak.
Being unconcerned with something doesn't mean it is beneath him. It probably just shows his ignorance of the threat Thanos represented. Beings like Cytorrak also have a tendency to have a very narrow focus regarding what they actually care about.
Galactus stealmated (was going to be defeated - stated on panel) by Agamotto who didn't even used full power and was about to used but other Vishanti intevented. Agamotto isn't even the most powerful member of Vishanti.
That was a particularly poorly written issue. As if a being like Galactus hasn't learned the old "don't judge a book by its cover" rule. Or that he has no clue of any sort how to identify or combat a non-corporeal being. Or that he would have no understanding at all of Agamotto's power, despite the Eye of Agamotto being an important key in his navigating the dimensional corridor.
@CapitolPunishment said:
Thanks for the scans man XD. That is an extremely weakend Galactus shown there, he did not even reconize the Silver Surfer.
Uh, he had summoned the Surfer there. Not sure why you think he didn't recognize him. And no, he was not weakened there at all. All 3 scans occur before he is captured by Annihilus. The simple fact is Galactus himself considers them to be of comparable power to him. That he "won" the war in the early days of the universe doesn't mean much, since we don't know any of the details involved (like any allies he may have had, or how many enemies he fought at once).
@Lance Bastro said:
Also didn't Onslaught tear out Juggernaut's gem? He shouldn't be a magical entity; it must have been done with psionic energy.
this has been discussed several times in this forum already.
Yes, I remember discussing this with a couple people on a few occasions. The problem is, I haven't seen anyone actually prove several of these points.
after xavier mind wiped and absorbed magneto's mind, his (alter ego) went after the juggernaut more times than once.... the alterego was catching juggernaut in his dreams asking juggernaut to be a recruit of some new world order.... juggernaut refused and the shadow figure later reviled as xavier (walking ---- a dead give away that this is in cain's mind in a dream). xavier leaves cain in the bar and juggernaut wakes up inside a small shack..... juggernaut realizes something is wrong and says, "stay out of my head... whatever you are... you're telepathic powers are far more powerful than charles...." in the next issue, juggernaut is flinged from one state to another.... the x-men try to figure it out, but it is later hinted that it was the power of magneto through charles. juggernaut gets help from jean grey, but by this time onslaught had already absorbed nate grey. when juggernaut felt the familiar power he freaked out, and ran away from jean straight into the office of charles xavier. this is when onslaught reveals itself casting the illusion that he ripped out the gem off of juggernaut's chest....
See, all this stuff. First of all, none of that happened before the issue where Juggernaut landed in Jersey, because nobody, writer's included, actually knew what Onslaught was at the time. That issue where Juggernaut falls out of the sky are the very first hintings of Onslaught's existence.
No, Onslaught had not absorbed Nate before he pulled the Gem out. There's no evidence in the issue that it is an illusion. There is no evidence in a subsequent issue featuring Dr. Strange that it is an illusion either.
And it was Canada to New Jersey, not one state to another.
juggernaut did not have his helmet on, he took it off so that jean can help by unlocking the memory of events of cain's dream of xavier when xavier asked him to be a recruit of the new cause
That would make him susceptible, but it doesn't prove it. And he did have his helmet on when he landed in Jersey
the gem is not really a physical object. needless to say, a physical object that is embedded inside cain... the reason why is because the gem can materialize out of thin air when ever it pleases... cain threw that gem in space and the next moment later, it is inside his drawer in his bed room
The issue where Juggernaut goes to find the Gem so he can share it with Black Tom, it is treated as a physical object the whole time, and it does not reappear in that issue after he throws it into space.
it doesn't make sense that cain can be the juggernaut when the gem is floating in space, but then again he is weaker when it is shown to be inside of his chest 0_0
I figured the author just wasn't completely familiar with how it worked.
the onslaught series was pretty confusing because the artist was using ALOT of illusions..... onslaught tricked jeans for awhile too with these illusions that even tricked it's readers.... do you remember onslaught crushing the phoenix force with it's hand??? that was also an illusion.... and so was the gem being ripped off of cain marko.
That whole confrontation with Jean Grey was a psychic encounter on the astral plane. No one who was reading it should have thought it was taking place in the "real world" at any time. Onslaught uses illusions later when he reveals himself to the X-Men, but every instance of this is made very clear within the same book. The Juggernaut ones are not.
what the arc intended: was that xavier used a scare tactic to weaken the will power of cain marko so that he can induce fear into himself.... if cain is fearful, the power of cyttorak will reject that emotion and absorb it..... this is why cain ended up inside the crimson cosmos. cyttorak sucked in cain's consciousness back for more trails, but due to cain's cowardice, the two crimson dawn monks had to literally help cain regain his will power back. and afterwards, cain is fighting cyttorak again and beats cyttorak... cyttorak allows cain to become the juggernaut again and juggernaut finds himself waking up as the juggernaut...
No, I really think you are making this up. Onslaught's identity was not planned out from the beginning, they came up with a name, had it toss Juggernaut across a continent to show how badass this new evil guy was going to be, and then actually invented him later. Even if these things did happen, they would have been later issues attempting to retcon what happened to Juggernaut.
In your Juggernaut thread, you were mentioning about infinite number of juggernauts that cyttorak has...that means Cyttorak is at the level of Multi-Eternity?
Seems like a stretch though, I mean Cyttorak only has one universe in which he is omnipotent, how does he power all of these exemplars? Or do we just assume in some universes, he's got so many worshipers that it's spread across the cosmos?
@Lance Bastro: In your Juggernaut thread, you were mentioning about infinite number of juggernauts that cyttorak has...that means Cyttorak is at the level of Multi-Eternity? Seems like a stretch though, I mean Cyttorak only has one universe in which he is omnipotent, how does he power all of these exemplars? Or do we just assume in some universes, he's got so many worshipers that it's spread across the cosmos?
actually i've been wondering? could you see ALL the pictures or were there some red "X"s in that post?
And Juggernaut is not truly invincible right? Merely his essence cannot die... He has to manually activate his force field AFAIK it's not simply "always active."
T&A have no magic to speak of, so dispelling the force field won't be an issue of course, but he can be reduced to a cinder before he activates the shield (he might not even think he needs it...)
Also technically none of these contestants can die it seems, even T&A came back recently despite being annihilated by the crunch...
Actually Lance, even though the comicvine lists the octessense artifacts as using one-eighth (1/8) of the powers of the gods, I don't think anybody has actually come up with the scans.
Also the exact same article is available on marvel wikis and the word "one-eighth" is replaced by "fraction", which to me means whoever wrote the comicvine article on the octessense was either speculating or simply assumed "oct = eight" and eight beings creating eight artifacts means each used 1/8th.
Also 1/8th doesn't really matter if Cyttorak's power truly effects the entire multiverse...it could be 1% or .00001%, either way his power would have to be so immense it would only be directly under Living Tribunal and equal or surpassing Multi-Eternity.
Actually Lance, even though the comicvine lists the octessense artifacts as using one-eighth (1/8) of the powers of the gods, I don't think anybody has actually come up with the scans. Also the exact same article is available on marvel wikis and the word "one-eighth" is replaced by "fraction", which to me means whoever wrote the comicvine article on the octessense was either speculating or simply assumed "oct = eight" and eight beings creating eight artifacts means each used 1/8th. Also 1/8th doesn't really matter if Cyttorak's power truly effects the entire multiverse...it could be 1% or .00001%, either way his power would have to be so immense it would only be directly under Living Tribunal and equal or surpassing Multi-Eternity.
that could very well be true, but 1/8 was mentioned during 8th day. whether or not if the panel meant by essence or by dividing the artifact is a debatable subject, but juggernaut was mentioned to be a fraction of the physical aspect of whatever the crimson cosmos really is. that means a fraction within a fraction... because we just don't know how the crimson cosmos work or what it is comprised of. being physical is only a fraction of our humanity so if juggernaut is 1/8th of a physical universe squeezed into a 15 foot man plus have more because despite the factioned number, it is a fraction of endlessness
You need some way of condensing this Lance lol, it's almost unreadable and the images are too wide for the comicvine forum so you only see the left half lol.
You need some way of condensing this Lance lol, it's almost unreadable and the images are too wide for the comicvine forum so you only see the left half lol.
are you saying the scans are too big? hmm... i guess the images vary on pixel depending on the modification of your screen resolution or if not, the browser you are using. the problem if i upload them into comicvine, the images will be too small (500x500) too read. the best thing to do without changing your computer or browser settings is to a) use zoom in/out or b) click on the photo and select "show image or open image in new tab".
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