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#1 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

First round is against Hope Summers with the Phoenix Force. Second round is against the Force itself.

#2 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Adult Franklin Richards>Hope Summers
Phoenix Force>Adult Franklin Richards

#3 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

Adult Franklin Richards>Hope Summers
Phoenix Force>Adult Franklin Richards

Why?

#4 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

@jeanroygrant said:

Adult Franklin Richards>Hope Summers
Phoenix Force>Adult Franklin Richards

Why?

I say this because Hope Summers hasn't done anything on Adult Franklin Richards level yet, from what i seen. He has killed Celestials, turned there attackss into flowers, and made Galactus his herald.
Phoenix Force beats Adult Franklin Richards because it has the power of the multiverse and has been shown to be way stronger without a host.

#5 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5242 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Franklin, Hope isn't that experienced with the Phoenix Force, and hasn't done anything on Franklin's level

Round 2: The Phoenix, it is much stronger without a host, and I think Jean could beat Franklin

#6 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Right, I agree Franklin is more powerful than Hope, but she is also hosting the Phoenix here. For the second round, I believe Galactus has stalemated Phoenix for a time period (although ultimately would have lost) and adult Franklin in theory is greater than Galactus, so it would seem to me Franklin has a shot.

#7 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

Right, I agree Franklin is more powerful than Hope, but she is also hosting the Phoenix here.

But she doesn't have any feats with the Phoenix, regardless of the fact that she has it.

#8 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

I am aware of this, I was hoping for more of a theoretical debate on that round.

#9 Posted by pwnda (59 posts) - - Show Bio

franklin is def going to own in the first one, the second franklin has a legit shot at winning, right now adult franklin is going to be ranked above a full powered galactus. While the phoenix is a multiverse level force, franklin on his own as a boy was able to create entire universes. I would really love to say Adult Franklin can win 3-4/10 fights

#10 Posted by deadpool6_6_6 (1064 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1. Frank

Round 2. Phoenix

#11 Posted by pwnda (59 posts) - - Show Bio

how would this version of franklin do vs Dark Phoenix version of Jean Grey?

#12 Posted by NCC1396 (272 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't the Phoenix Force practicaly completely immortal and can only die if all life is extinguished?

#13 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@NCC1396 Uncertain as to answer your question, but Franklin evidently lives to be a billion and sees the end of the universe with Galactus.

#14 Posted by NCC1396 (272 posts) - - Show Bio

@pwnda: I'm pretty sure the Dark Phoenix is it's weakest incarnation, so he'd probably destroy her.

#15 Edited by JediWaffles (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

@NCC1396 Uncertain as to answer your question, but Franklin evidently lives to be a billion and sees the end of the universe with Galactus.

Really? Where'd you get that info?

#16 Posted by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

Franklin actually has a shot @ taking down the phoenix force

it's been stated on panel that he's destined to become a cosmic entity/abstract

#17 Edited by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediWaffles said:

@BringnIt said:

@NCC1396 Uncertain as to answer your question, but Franklin evidently lives to be a billion and sees the end of the universe with Galactus.

Really? Where'd you get that info?

#18 Posted by JediWaffles (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@X_insignia1: Sweet thanks, what issue did this come from?

#19 Edited by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediWaffles said:

@X_insignia1: Sweet thanks, what issue did this come from?

Fantastic Four #605

#20 Posted by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

@pwnda said:

how would this version of franklin do vs Dark Phoenix version of Jean Grey?

He'd pwn it

#21 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

How can Franklin be more powerful than Hope with the Phoenix? Without the Phoenix she will be more powerful because she can mimic his power and make it better with the Phoenix it's overkill. He may be able to use the power because of experience, but in the end he can't be more powerful because she can have his power magnify it and host the Phoenix.

#22 Posted by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

How can Franklin be more powerful than Hope with the Phoenix? Without the Phoenix she will be more powerful because she can mimic his power and make it better with the Phoenix it's overkill. He may be able to use the power because of experience, but in the end he can't be more powerful because she can have his power magnify it and host the Phoenix.

History shows that mere power mimicing doesn't mean that the copier has the same degree of power as the other

mimic essentially overloaded when he attempted to copy Nate grey's powers

so in Franklin's case his reality warping abilities most likely would exceed hers by far

#23 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

Hope is not Mimic and history has shown that she is an omega level mutant mimic and it takes several mutants with her power also increasing those powers to overwhelm her, Franklin is one mutant, and if she can contain the Phoenix she should be able to mimic him with no problem. His skill is the only thing he would have going for him, she will have his power plus the Phoenix, she has him beat in the who is more powerful department

#24 Posted by cliffrice (1015 posts) - - Show Bio

Hope can mimic any mutant power and use it at levels that are greater than the origonal so much more powerful that she has been shown to be a danger to whole cities while takeing a lower level power. Imagine the crap she could reap with the Phoenix Force and Franklins powers. It would be quite sicksause.

#25 Edited by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

Hope is not Mimic and history has shown that she is an omega level mutant mimic and it takes several mutants with her power also increasing those powers to overwhelm her, Franklin is one mutant, and if she can contain the Phoenix she should be able to mimic him with no problem. His skill is the only thing he would have going for him, she will have his power plus the Phoenix, she has him beat in the who is more powerful department

I never said she was mimic, however their powers work very similarly, and yes his powers very well may overwhelm her, nothing suggest that she will be able to overpower Franklin, far as Omega? Franklin has been labeled as " beyond omega" and an "anomaly"who even knows if she would be able to duplicate his powers successfully, Even with multiple powers she has been defeated, when Sinister took control of the Dreaming Celestial he overpowered her and the WHOLE team, so her duplication factors very well may not apply to him efficiently as you think, none of her showings suggest that she can defeat Franklin, and until she does, she cannot outclass him

In an alternate reality Franklin killed an alternate jean w/ the phoenix force , point?

#26 Edited by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

@cliffrice said:

Hope can mimic any mutant power and use it at levels that are greater than the origonal so much more powerful that she has been shown to be a danger to whole cities while takeing a lower level power. Imagine the crap she could reap with the Phoenix Force and Franklins powers. It would be quite sicksause.

Danger to what whole cities? how? and what issue? and again nothing she has shown suggest she can over power Franklin

secondly, she needs to be in close proximity to even demonstrate those abilities, and those abilities fade as the distance between her and the said person(s) increases, Franklin has multiple ways to attack her from afar

he would wreck hope

and he can easily negate her powers, reality is what he makes it

here's Fanklin denying his Grandfather access to his time traveling abilities

Here's Franklin owning Blackbolt's voice

#27 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think you understand things as much as you think. Logically and literally there is no such thing as beyound Omega in the mutant world. Being Omega means your have unlimited power and potential, how can you be beyond unlimited? They are mimics and thus ends the similarities, it's like saying that Polaris is the same as Magneto, they have the same kind of power but he is clearly stronger. In the direct future of 616 Phoenix wiped Franklin and everything else out of existence, point? SO until you can prove that she while hosting the Phoenix and mimicing his power is not enough than I can't listen, as this adult Franklin borrowerd power from his younger self to be as powerful as he was, or at least that's the way I understand it. There have been adult Franklins that needed the power of the Phoenix when Rachel had it

#28 Edited by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

I don't think you understand things as much as you think. Logically and literally there is no such thing as beyound Omega in the mutant world. Being Omega means your have unlimited power and potential, how can you be beyond unlimited? They are mimics and thus ends the similarities, it's like saying that Polaris is the same as Magneto, they have the same kind of power but he is clearly stronger. In the direct future of 616 Phoenix wiped Franklin and everything else out of existence, point? SO until you can prove that she while hosting the Phoenix and mimicing his power is not enough than I can't listen, as this adult Franklin borrowerd power from his younger self to be as powerful as he was, or at least that's the way I understand it. There have been adult Franklins that needed the power of the Phoenix when Rachel had it

Actually I understand quite well and i can see why you are confused, but as i stated prior FF #605 suggest why he is categorized in such a way

and what timeline are you referring to where the phoenix wipe out all of existence? issue #? and clearly thats not the case because again it's been stated that Franklin will essentially outlive the current universe and i believe the reason why he is termed " beyond omega" is because of his destiny to ascend towards cosmic entity/abstract hood, jean has been labeled something similar as well, the term "omega" only refers to limitless potential in a said area and existing beyond " the physical universe", clearly Franklin is beyond that category, because he is not just limited to the "unlimited potential" in his field.When Galactus attempted to devour the Phoenix Force years ago, he stopped, due to the fact that by consuming it the starts were dying, thus ending all life showing he too can test his power it's power if he is decently fedconsidering that Franklin is either Galactus's peer or superior, and seeing that he rivals the Celestials' power and very well may exceed them as well. He has a good chance of taking down hope, and other mutants have defeated a phoenix force empowered jean, Nate grey was stated to rival a phoenix empowered jean grey and Franklin exceeds him, countless times Franklin has been stated to be the most powerful mutant. In regard to the Mad Celestials' battle, the only purpose of using his younger counterpart's energy was to revive Galactus, all of the other showings, killing 2 Celestials on his own stemmed from his own reserves which is still a very impressive feat

and i have proven why mimicing his abilities may not be enough, there are multiple factors, lack of skill and power output

you're just neglecting the obvious reasons and still hope needs to be in close enough proximity to even demonstrate his abilities

#29 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

Like I said you don't understand.

#30 Posted by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

negative, you're reluctant to comprehend

#31 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm reluctant to believe you understand anything I'm talking about, and that's cool...research and you find that I have a counter to everything you said, I say you don't understand because i don't doubt him having more skill with his power, but she can mimic his power and the limits you place on them based on Mimic do not apply, she can mimic his power and the Phoenix is added, which would make her more powerful evertime.

#32 Posted by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

i highly doubt it, We'll have to agree to disagree, and i'm fine with that ,and I was only using Mimic as an example,obviously she exceeds him in power when it comes to who can duplicate who and how many, but assuming that she can duplicates anyone's ability and use it to an unlimited degree is pure speculation. I've stated multiple times that nothing she has performed so far suggest that she contend with Franklin, and even if the phoenix augments her powers there is no certainty that it would excel Franklin's.

Your fallacy is assuming that just because she is empowered by the phoenix Force she can surpass him, which has not been addressed on panel so neither can say. Again, we will just have to agree to disagree

#33 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

she can mimic him to be at least his equal, but the nature of her power allowes her to modify and exceed the powers of mutants she does mimic, the combined might of mutants did nothing to Bastions field or Bastion, when she mimiced the powers of those same mutants she was too much for him and his field. Why is his power any different? He is a mutant right? Now add that power to the Phoenix and you have a mutant that is more powerful than Franklin. Where is the fallacy? You can state what you want, but there is nothing that suggests he his more powerful than Phoenix at all, so now we have Phoenix plus his almighty power that even Onslaught can take.

#34 Edited by Skaddix (3114 posts) - - Show Bio

@X_insignia1 said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

How can Franklin be more powerful than Hope with the Phoenix? Without the Phoenix she will be more powerful because she can mimic his power and make it better with the Phoenix it's overkill. He may be able to use the power because of experience, but in the end he can't be more powerful because she can have his power magnify it and host the Phoenix.

History shows that mere power mimicing doesn't mean that the copier has the same degree of power as the other

mimic essentially overloaded when he attempted to copy Nate grey's powers

so in Franklin's case his reality warping abilities most likely would exceed hers by far

Hope is stronger. Synch was stronger as well. The reason being they max out the powers they mimic. Rogue on the other hand does not. Neither does Mimic.

#35 Posted by deadpool6_6_6 (1064 posts) - - Show Bio

Frankin in a good fight.

#36 Posted by Killemall (18583 posts) - - Show Bio

@X_insignia1 said:

@pwnda said:

how would this version of franklin do vs Dark Phoenix version of Jean Grey?

He'd pwn it

How exactly would he do so? Phoenix or their avatars are immune to reality warping. HOM Wanda couldnt affect Jean Gray and her feats are above franklin, how's fanklin going to do better against Dark phoenix?

#37 Posted by Dernman (15128 posts) - - Show Bio

Doesn't Hope burn out the stronger the power she mimics?

#38 Edited by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dernman said:

Doesn't Hope burn out the stronger the power she mimics?

no idea, it may be possible, it may not

@Killemall said:

@X_insignia1 said:

@pwnda said:

how would this version of franklin do vs Dark Phoenix version of Jean Grey?

He'd pwn it

How exactly would he do so? Phoenix or their avatars are immune to reality warping. HOM Wanda couldnt affect Jean Gray and her feats are above franklin, how's fanklin going to do better against Dark phoenix?

may do better then others, seeing that phoenix avatars have been handled before, and immune? according to whom? when legion warped 616, jean was swept up in the warp as well, also the White Hot Room has been warped by Jamie Braddock and Franklin outclasses him, and HoM Wanda's warp was stated to be global by Roma, the chaos wave is what had spread wildly due to the tear in space/time which was handled abruptly which was not part of wandas powerset, when the seal closed, so was the chaos wave, also HoM Wanda was amped by life force due to her and Doom's attempts to bring back her son, in regard to the life force which exact nature has not been revealed, and if Jamie can warp the white hot room, i'm sure Franklin is capable of accomplishing a similar feat.

#39 Posted by Killemall (18583 posts) - - Show Bio

@X_insignia1: Jamie has? When? Thats news to me :)

#40 Posted by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@X_insignia1: Jamie has? When? Thats news to me :)

#41 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
Hope has no feats with the Force yet, so Franklin wins round 1 by default unless or until that changes in time. Not really interested in round 2.
Moderator
#42 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@X_insignia1 said:

@JediWaffles said:

@X_insignia1: Sweet thanks, what issue did this come from?

Fantastic Four #605

Get your issues right . Its from Future Foundation # 16 .

Btw, adult Franklin stomps . Hard .

#43 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

I don't think you understand things as much as you think. Logically and literally there is no such thing as beyound Omega in the mutant world. Being Omega means your have unlimited power and potential, how can you be beyond unlimited? They are mimics and thus ends the similarities, it's like saying that Polaris is the same as Magneto, they have the same kind of power but he is clearly stronger. In the direct future of 616 Phoenix wiped Franklin and everything else out of existence, point? SO until you can prove that she while hosting the Phoenix and mimicing his power is not enough than I can't listen, as this adult Franklin borrowerd power from his younger self to be as powerful as he was, or at least that's the way I understand it. There have been adult Franklins that needed the power of the Phoenix when Rachel had it

There are levels of infinity . As a beyond omega mutant , Franklin's potential is , at the very least , one level of infinity above Hope's . Also , seeing as how you cherry-picked an alternate reality incident , let me remind you that a much weaker version of Franklin from Days of Future Past , was able to hijack Rachel Summers' link to the Phoenix Force . Plus , the blue orb that kid Franklin supplied to his adult counterpart , was used for rejuvenating Galactus . He is at the very least , as powerful as his younger self , considering how he was able to briefly halt the collapse of all realities into a single time-stream , and was able to safeguard his timeline's destruction from the Revision Wave , by generating a self-sustaining pocket reality for it , and ended up saving and founding a new future . Hope has also been rendered unconscious from using the power of too many mutants , when she broke Kuurth's helmet . She has limits , despite her omega-mutant status . Hickman's Franklin doesn't . He can depower her , just as he did to his grandfather . He can render himself immune to her mimicry , just as he immunized himself to Blackbolt's voice .

#44 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyper_God said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

I don't think you understand things as much as you think. Logically and literally there is no such thing as beyound Omega in the mutant world. Being Omega means your have unlimited power and potential, how can you be beyond unlimited? They are mimics and thus ends the similarities, it's like saying that Polaris is the same as Magneto, they have the same kind of power but he is clearly stronger. In the direct future of 616 Phoenix wiped Franklin and everything else out of existence, point? SO until you can prove that she while hosting the Phoenix and mimicing his power is not enough than I can't listen, as this adult Franklin borrowerd power from his younger self to be as powerful as he was, or at least that's the way I understand it. There have been adult Franklins that needed the power of the Phoenix when Rachel had it

There are levels of infinity . As a beyond omega mutant , Franklin's potential is , at the very least , one level of infinity above Hope's . Also , seeing as how you cherry-picked an alternate reality incident , let me remind you that a much weaker version of Franklin from Days of Future Past , was able to hijack Rachel Summers' link to the Phoenix Force . Plus , the blue orb that kid Franklin supplied to his adult counterpart , was used for rejuvenating Galactus . He is at the very least , as powerful as his younger self , considering how he was able to briefly halt the collapse of all realities into a single time-stream , and was able to safeguard his timeline's destruction from the Revision Wave , by generating a self-sustaining pocket reality for it , and ended up saving and founding a new future . Hope has also been rendered unconscious from using the power of too many mutants , when she broke Kuurth's helmet . She has limits , despite her omega-mutant status . Hickman's Franklin doesn't . He can depower her , just as he did to his grandfather . He can render himself immune to her mimicry , just as he immunized himself to Blackbolt's voice .

Beyond omega is redundant, however you want spin it.

How can his potential be higher than a person that can mimic it? Your arguing what he can do with his powers, without reading me write he has experienced usage of his powers, but there should be no way he would be more powerful than her because she can copy his power and has the Phoenix. Whether she passes out or not the power will be copied and this overload that she experiences is not instant, add the Phoenix and she would be more powerful than him, and that is the only point I'm trying to make.

She has the Phoenix in this thread, and while she has no feats with it, it's pretty much common knowledge that the powers of those bonded with the Phoenix are increased. So this is why I don't see her being hindered by any limits she has when not channeling the Phoenix.

The Phoenix increases her powers, allows her to fully mimic his, now you have his powers also empowered by the Phoenix. This does not give her the auto win, but I still don't see how he will be more powerful in this thread.

#45 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Hyper_God said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

I don't think you understand things as much as you think. Logically and literally there is no such thing as beyound Omega in the mutant world. Being Omega means your have unlimited power and potential, how can you be beyond unlimited? They are mimics and thus ends the similarities, it's like saying that Polaris is the same as Magneto, they have the same kind of power but he is clearly stronger. In the direct future of 616 Phoenix wiped Franklin and everything else out of existence, point? SO until you can prove that she while hosting the Phoenix and mimicing his power is not enough than I can't listen, as this adult Franklin borrowerd power from his younger self to be as powerful as he was, or at least that's the way I understand it. There have been adult Franklins that needed the power of the Phoenix when Rachel had it

There are levels of infinity . As a beyond omega mutant , Franklin's potential is , at the very least , one level of infinity above Hope's . Also , seeing as how you cherry-picked an alternate reality incident , let me remind you that a much weaker version of Franklin from Days of Future Past , was able to hijack Rachel Summers' link to the Phoenix Force . Plus , the blue orb that kid Franklin supplied to his adult counterpart , was used for rejuvenating Galactus . He is at the very least , as powerful as his younger self , considering how he was able to briefly halt the collapse of all realities into a single time-stream , and was able to safeguard his timeline's destruction from the Revision Wave , by generating a self-sustaining pocket reality for it , and ended up saving and founding a new future . Hope has also been rendered unconscious from using the power of too many mutants , when she broke Kuurth's helmet . She has limits , despite her omega-mutant status . Hickman's Franklin doesn't . He can depower her , just as he did to his grandfather . He can render himself immune to her mimicry , just as he immunized himself to Blackbolt's voice .

Beyond omega is redundant, however you want spin it.

How can his potential be higher than a person that can mimic it? Your arguing what he can do with his powers, without reading me write he has experienced usage of his powers, but there should be no way he would be more powerful than her because she can copy his power and has the Phoenix. Whether she passes out or not the power will be copied and this overload that she experiences is not instant, add the Phoenix and she would be more powerful than him, and that is the only point I'm trying to make.

She has the Phoenix in this thread, and while she has no feats with it, it's pretty much common knowledge that the powers of those bonded with the Phoenix are increased. So this is why I don't see her being hindered by any limits she has when not channeling the Phoenix.

The Phoenix increases her powers, allows her to fully mimic his, now you have his powers also empowered by the Phoenix. This does not give her the auto win, but I still don't see how he will be more powerful in this thread.

Franklin has been confirmed as a beyond omega mutant twice on-panel . Its not redundant at all . When it comes to unlimited power and potential , Marvel has established levels of infinity , and Franklin is at the very minimum one level of infinity above her in terms of both power , potential and even experience with his godlike abilities .

Nope . I already showed that Hope has limits , despite her Omega status . She collapased from the strain of mimicking the power of fodder mutants in Utopia , when she destroyed Kuurth's helmet . Franklin's power(not even 100%) is enough to rejuvenate and fully charge a comatose Galactus . That's an energy output far greater than what all the mutants from Utopia can produce . Trying to mimic Franklin's powers would be akin to committing suicide for Hope .

I already told you a much weaker version of Franklin from Days of Future Past was able to hijack Rachel's connection to the Phoenix . Hickman's Franklin is , in comparison , in a league of his own . He can hijack Hope's connection to the Phoenix ? Check . He can depower her ? Check . He can immunize himself to her mimicry ? Check . There is nothing she can do , which can't be countered by him .

Franklin wins this with ease .

#46 Posted by pwnda (59 posts) - - Show Bio

based on feats adult franklin richards will destroy hope summers with phoenix force, until there is more feats shown with hope as the phoenix, franklin's feats will out class her. Hope is shown presently to not even be ready for the phoenix, if they fought currently, and hope had the phoenix force, she will not know how to use it properly let alone be able to mimic franklins powers on top of it. If you are going to use some hypothetical instance where hope is a master of the complete extent of the phoenix force, then she would be able to pwn franklin all day, but right now hope would be toast.

#47 Posted by BMEZY (1215 posts) - - Show Bio

round 1: Franklin takes it

round 2:the phoenix force is the source of his very existence. he's dead

#48 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@BMEZY said:

round 2: he's dead

How ? Also , Franklin is the end product of an aeons long experiment of the Celestials . They are responsible for his existence , not the Phoenix .

#49 Posted by BMEZY (1215 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyper_God:

The Phoenix Force is simply above Franklin. It's power enabled avatars to do things that are beyond what Franklin has shown to do. She's multiversal and without PIS/CIS it should be very easy for the Phoenix Force to vanquish him.

Phoenix is responsible for all life in the multiverse. Would you like for me to explain??

#50 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@BMEZY said:

@Hyper_God:

The Phoenix Force is simply above Franklin. It's power enabled avatars to do things that are beyond what Franklin has shown to do. She's multiversal and without PIS/CIS it should be very easy for the Phoenix Force to vanquish him.

Phoenix is responsible for all life in the multiverse. Would you like for me to explain??

Except for White Phoenix of the Crown , no other Avatar of the Phoenix has displayed anywhere near Franklin's feats . Franklin has displayed trans-universal power in Daydreamers and Man-Thing vol 3 , and in F4#582 he displayed a multiversal scale of power . Greater than what any Phoenix host or avatar has shown .

And Franklin is God within his own self-created universes/realities . If you want to debate how the Phoenix can defeat Franklin , then do so based on relevant combat and power feats . I don't give two hoots about character hyperbole . And be glad that I dismiss Brevoort's opinion regarding where the Phenix stands in terms of power , in the Marvel Cosmic Hierarchy .