Achilles (Troy) vs Winter Soldier (MCU)

That doesn't mean he has seen every person on earth throw a spear, he clearly has not seen Achilles throw before or he wouldn't have said it was impossible.

But that is beside the point, I do think it is a super human throw but that could mean anything over 100 mph considering the best javelin throwers in the world approach only 75 mph.

@man_of_miracles: The winter soldier is not winning. He literally gets speed blitzed

And now Achilles is being overrated..

@i_like_swords Achilies is too fast. WS does not have the speed feats to compare. WS gets a sword through his chest before he even knows what hit him

Achilies is invincible. The only way to kill him is by going for his heel. And since the WS does not know that, Achilies cuts him in half.

Achilies godstomps. Mismatch.

WS turned around and caught a shield thrown by Cap from less than 50 ft after it was thrown. That is far more than enough speed to compete with Achilles, I would argue it is a greater speed and reaction feat than any of Achilles.

Also a PSA this is movie Achilles, he is not invulnerable or invincible. How are people still not getting that.

@man_of_miracles: it's been awhile since I saw troy, but why is he not invulnerable?

I always thought we could take the story either way and it was open to interpretation.

@slimj87d:

He isn't invulnerable because Paris kills him with arrows to the torso, the arrow to the heel hit him first he then turns and gets shot a few more times, he then pulls these out and dies leaving only the arrow in his heel to start the myth of it being his only weakness.

So I got to reading the script for Troy, and the fight scenes ect are far better described than what we see on-screen. I'm gonna read through all the important parts, like the spear throws and fights, so we get a better idea of just how good Achilles is. I suggest someone does the same with The Winter Soldier, as I imagine it'd shed light on a lot of stuff like Bucky dodging/deflecting bullets and his fights with Cap.

@man_of_miracles That is not a speed feat. There is difference between speed and reaction time. And frankly, all he did was turn round. Giving that it was 50 ft distance between the,, its not all that surprising that he reacted to it in time. Achilies is more agile and is quick on his feet.

Because the movie one is the same man in the myths now think about it the movie is from mans (Odysseus)point of view they don't know that he is invunrable nor would it be announced because this is something only the gods would have known.

In the script, his mother is in fact a regular, 45 year old woman (Achilles being 30.. she had him young). Her prediction wasn't prophecy, just her being smart. The film does seem to just tell the story of an inhuman warrior opposed to an actual, mythological demigod. There isn't any mention of gods or the like.

Lol what are you talking about? the shield was thrown while his back was turned and he turned around and caught it mid-air, what feat does Achilles have that surpasses that? Everything Achilles dodged was from straight in front of him and none of it was thrown/launched by a superhuman like Cap. And yeah I know it is a reaction feat, reaction speed is what keeps people from blitzing you. And considering that the shield was thrown by Cap who is a superhuman that is pretty damn good reaction time especially considering Achilles never fought a superhuman in Troy.

Where is the evidence that Achilles is more agile? He performs none of the multitude of acrobatics displayed by Bucky. There is no feat that Achilles has that shows his agility to be greater than Bucky's. But if you think you have one by all means please share.

@man_of_miracles: not true, he blocks a two arrows fired behind has back without looking while he's invading the beach.

For the record, I'm leaning more towards bucky now. My Memory didn't serve me well and I thought they said Achilles was a demigod.

A spear thrown by a normal man, in a battle. He wouldn't be very good if he let his guard down in a battle would he?

Bucky on the other hand had no clue that Cap was going to throw a shield at him.

And it hardly matters, even if the feats were the same in circumstance Bucky's feat was performed against a superhuman and Achilles feat was not. So again of the two Bucky's is superior.

@man_of_miracles: watch the scene, he wasn't even looking in the direction when they were fired meaning he had to have saw the arrow shooters previously and guessed perfectly when they would fire after he killed their allies.

It's a good speed feat and combat prowess.

BTW, they were two arrows, not Spears. Arrows are fired relatively fast.

Good combat prowess sure. Reaction feat not so much, if he timed he arrows based on distance it is a nice precision feat but not a reaction one. If he simply reacted then it is a similar reaction feat to Bucky's, yet again Bucky's was performed against a superhuman, though arrows as opposed to spears makes them closer

@man_of_miracles: you could say the glass breaking from Captain America jumping threw the window could have gave Bucky a fair warning.

I think the reaction times and prowess of guessing are about equal for the both of them.

@man_of_miracles Bucky is fodder. Achilies stomps

1. Divine interference (in that film at least) is unquantifiable and therefore useless.

So... yeah...

@monsterstomp: There was no divine interference. In the script Briseis screaming "No!" throws off Paris' aim for the first shot. Lol.

@i_like_swords: I know there was no divine interference :P

Ok troll.

The scripting of the "impossible" spear throw. It was indeed superhuman, exact distance of 100 yards.

@i_like_swords: This is actually a great battle idea....

Considering how Achilles had trouble with Hector (a skilled human), I think this can go either way...

I'd like to give it to Achilles though.. The guy slashed through an army of thousands with 50 men. He alone killed more guys on the beach war than the rest of the myrmidons..

Lets not forget how Bradchilles threw that spear at Tecton in a superhuman way (they made a calculation for that). And the trapezius stab is a move Bucky can't avoid since he doesn't necessarily have a good way to shield himself beside his arm (which won't suffice in my opinion).

Edit:

Actually, even if Achilles had trouble with Hector, I think he can still beat Bucky mainly because in the movie, Hector wasn't really human either. In the movie (not the mythology), he killed Ajax who was also a Demigod like Achilles. That puts him above human in terms of feats IMO..

Since we are talking movie versions, the movie version of Hector killed the movie version of Ajax (who was a demigod) which makes Hector formidable enough to give hell to Achilles.. Then I can agree on Achiles beating Bucky for a slight majority..

@i_like_swords said:

The scripting of the "impossible" spear throw. It was indeed superhuman, exact distance of 100 yards.

Considering the longest Javelin throw is 98.48 yards I would say that the speed it is thrown is more important to it being superhuman than the distance. However the distance is still superhuman.

EDIT: Just kidding there was a throw of 104.8 yards in 1984, not that it really takes away much from Achilles.

@man_of_miracles:

Considering the longest Javelin throw is 98.48 yards I would say that the speed it is thrown is more important to it being superhuman than the distance. However the distance is still superhuman.

You also need to think about how powerful and accurate the throw was, though, and how casually he did it. He skewered the guy into the ground, and he took like, a moment, to size up the throw and let it off. I'm willing to bet the world's best javelin throw wasn't done with that level of power, precision or lack of preparation.

Considering that the longest throw was actually 104.8 yards. The accuracy and power is what makes the throw superhuman.

@digitalshooter9: Bucky's arm is made of material far superior to the sword and metals of troys time, so if he blocked the spear it probably wouldn't do much to the arm.

But Achilles doesn't have a spear here anyway.

@digitalshooter9: Bucky's arm is made of material far superior to the sword and metals of troys time, so if he blocked the spear it probably wouldn't do much to the arm.

But Achilles doesn't have a spear here anyway.

..okay, but again that's kind of besides the point. Achilles wasn't really preparing for an olympic throw, he was just killing a guy to show off.

@digitalshooter9:

Also, somewhere in the fight Hector hits Achilles's heel and nothing happens because of the armor on his leg. If that armor wash't there, then Achilles would have been in trouble.

It seemed a lot more like Achilles intended for that to happen, the way he slams in foot down in the path of the blade.

But yeah, you're right, Achilles wasn't toying with Hector, at least not until the very end when he was gassed.

@digitalshooter9: Right but really it just seemed like Achilles was dancing around him at some points, whereas Hector was going all out against him with his blows and I did say at some parts not throughout the whole fight.

Yes that's what I said, he was breathing at the end, his stamina still seemed to be above human if we compare him to Hector which the fight was taking it's toll on him.

Well at the end, Hector was all burned out so Achilles did dance around him, you are right in that point. But in the beginning and especially in the middle of the fight where Hector gives him the chest slash, Achilles clearly freezes for a second and implies that he indeed was at the edge.

Achilles might have blocked the leg slash on purpose, but the chest slash clearly showed how Achilles was indeed in trouble for the first time.

Hector getting gassed by the end could be because he tripped on the rock, because from that point on he suggests that he is wasted.

The fight until the rock suggests Hector is more than good enough to give Achilles trouble. And that fight scene also shows off amazing technical skill for both.

@digitalshooter9: I would have to disagree that the rock affected Hector's stamina.

His energy was fading prior to tripping on the rock. After he tripped (which wouldn't really reduce stamina, at best he would have sprained something), he used all of his energy to launch an offensive, which Achilles managed to stave off. After that, Hector was too spent to mount another offensive.

@digitalshooter9: Eh it didn't seem like he went all out at some points to me before the end came, but perhaps I'm looking at it differently.

@digitalshooter9:

Well, seeing as how Achilles is a demigod and Hector is a human, that is normal.

He's a regular (well, relatively speaking..) human in the film. His goddess mother is a normal 45 year old woman.

@i_like_swords said:

@digitalshooter9: I would have to disagree that the rock affected Hector's stamina.

His energy was fading prior to tripping on the rock. After he tripped (which wouldn't really reduce stamina, at best he would have sprained something), he used all of his energy to launch an offensive, which Achilles managed to stave off. After that, Hector was too spent to mount another offensive.

Well not necessarily him losing stamina, but rather him losing his balance... Because falling down in a sword fight is detrimental to your coordination.

I already agreed the throw was superhuman, the question is to what degree.

Achilles.

@i_like_swords: Hm...alright that's certainly a different take.

Also on a note...is there any real source, in saying that Achilles wasn't a demigod or at least superhuman in Troy? I keep seeing posts and then people post that vid about Achilles saying he wouldn't need a shield if he was. But I would like to see a more outside statement really.

@digitalshooter9 Achilies was not having trouble with Hector at all. In fact, Achilies had already won the fight from the moment it began. There was not a single moment where Hector wasn't on the back foot.

Achiles outclassed him in every way; speed, strength,endurance(stamina). Hector was constantly thinking, how to approach Achillies but he did not know how to. Every attempt at him trying to kill him was blocked or avoided one way or another. There wasn't a single opening.

Notice how Achiles lost no stamina during the fight, whereas Hector on the other hand was panting like a worn out dog by the end of it. Hector's attacks were getting more and more sloppy the more he fought and it was only a matter of time before he was cut down. Achilies was just biding was just biding his time. Hector was simply no match for Aachilies' speed and reflexes. Achilies was dodging all of his attacks and was slowly wearing him down. Achilies was superior in every

I sum it up like this: Troy was based on the myth, but it portrayed a more realistic version. Like, for those who don't actually believe there were gods and invulnerable demigods, this would be the realistic telling of their stories. You know, like how thunder storms nowadays are understood, back then people thought it was Zeus' wrath. And back then, there might have been a warrior called Achilles, who was so good at what he did that people thought he had to of been the son of a god. But realistically, it seems more likely that it was just a guy who was as close to superhuman you can get. He was "invulernable" because nobody could hurt him. In the myth, Apollo guides the arrow to his Achilles tendon, whereas in this film, Paris gets distracted and accidently shoots his achilles tendon. It's just a realistic telling of mythology, really.

But by our standards, Achilles was superhuman in Troy, and the script does mentions several times that the things Achilles does are impossible, or couldn't be replicated by any other man.

Achilies obliterates. He is basically immortal.

@korraspirit Achilies wins for sure, but he dosen't 'obliterate'. After considering some of the comments, I say he wins with medium-high difficulty

Go Achilles....