Achilles (Troy) Vs 300 Spartans (300)

Achilles

Vs

The 300

• This is a brawl, No phalanx formation or group up, Can however gang up on him
• Spartans starts out spread

Round 1: 50 Spartans, Achilles has 25 of his Myrmidons

Round 2: 150 Spartans, Achilles has his 50 Myrmidons

Round 3: 300 Spartans, they can use Phalanx and other formations, Achilles has his 50myrmidons + Hector and Ajax

Thoughts?

Spartans

Any one of the known Spartans can give Achilles a fight. 50 or even 300 to 1 is a mismatch in favour of the Spartans.

Achilles loses Rounds 1-3 bravely but handily.

Achilles and friends win the bonus round with heavy casualties.

@monsterstomp: Really? The spartans wasn't showing anything super impressive in the movies while Achilles showed great speed, agility and reaction. He could easily take out one spartan 1v1

@dewin50: I have to watch Troy again but Astino has been able to kill 20+ soldiers by his lonesome, showing immense skill, even though he was one of the younglings on the team. Moreover, the training of a Spartan warrior was more explained in the film. They are sent out in the wilderness as children to fend for themselves and if they didn't come back, they didn't come back. Only the toughest warriors were to fight alongside their king. Spartan training has been more defined than Achilles'.

However, when Achilles is trying to take out 50 Spartans, nevermind any more than that, it becomes a massive mismatch. Only so much one demigod can do. I say he rips through ten of them before he gets dropped by a spear from an undefendable angle.

I say he can manage the bonus round because of how well he commands his myrmidon. They single handedly took the beach of Troy 50 to about 300+. And when they withdrew from battle the Greeks began losing to the Trojans. Then when they rejoined the fight, the Greeks came back and won against Troy. Having 51 men tip the balance in a war of thousands is insane. Hector and Ajax are a nice touch.

@monsterstomp: Achilles is though a extremely gifted warrior, The old greeks thought of him as a Demigod in the Trojan war. In the movie it is shown of him taking on 15 guys alone without a scratch and doing stuff like blocking arrows from behind without even looking.

@i_like_swords: I do fell like i overestimated Achilles quite a bit here, thought about adding some myrmidons in the early rounds but it sounds like you believe that Achilles + his 50myrmidons could take on the 300 themselves. I do feel like i should add more Myrmidons since the spartans outnumber them 6 to 1 and i would argue that a Myrmidon > Spartan, however Achilles would not get focused in a scenario with men behind his back witch would allow him to slowly but steadily take most of them out.

no way will Achilles win.

EDITED :

TO

@i_like_swords: How about now?

Achilles is good and most of their feats are comparable. But nothing really gives Achilles an actually edge over the Spartans.

Achilles and his 50 men stormed the beach of Troy, with added casualties for his team.

Leonidas and his men took on thousands and didn't start losing men until they fought the "Immortals".

@monsterstomp: The Spartans was on the defensive and they neutralized the persian number advantage by holding a small choke point with their really strong Phalanx formation.

Achilles and his men was attacking a beach from a boat while being barraged with arrows and then continues on the offensive versus 200+ men and still wins the battle.

@dewin50: @monsterstomp: Hes saying 1000 > 200

And its not like they just sat there and killed them one at a time

Historically the Spartans smashed the Persians before they were finally overwhelmed. Same goes for the movie except the Persians stood a slightly better chance. I see the Spartans winning this every round.

They held the line at first, then they started to spread open. Its not like they'll have to repeat that formation against 51 men. Astino killed 20+ Persians by his lonesome in a single standing. Then we have 299 men by his side who could possibly replicate that feat. They did fight thousands after all. They fought guys with shrapnel grenades. Lol.

@kgb725: I don't exactly know what you mean with "1000 > 200"...

Taking out a Thousand men is more impressive then 200hundred?

Well taking out 1000+ men that are attacking you in a small choke point with only 300 men is pretty damn impressive

But taking out 200+ defending men that are uphill with bows and infantry with only 50 men is more impressive

@dewin50: I said > before I edited it but do you think that the War loving spartans would lose in the same situation as troy

@monsterstomp: Oh yeah forgot about the grenade guys, lol.

But yeah not taking away anything from the Spartans they're real badass, but Astino was fighting alongside that other spartan, the persians weren't exactly all together focusing on him alone and he had some cuts after fight. Achilles was focused on by 10-20 men at once and was dancing around them while charging uphill. I wouldn't say that the Myrmidons are in the Spartans league but they have some tactics and formation and are quite capable as shown with Achilles leading them.

@kgb725: If the Spartans were in the Myrmidons situation?

50 Spartans wouldn't be able since their body isn't armored witch would be devastating against the arrows, they could get half way uphill but they'd be mowed down at that point.

300 Spartans would handily take the beach though.

@dewin50: The actual Spartans did but I digress.. why couldnt the shields protect them ?

I'm not saying that Astino would solo, but Astino and Stelios showed pretty good teamwork against 50+ men in that one scene. Think of the massacre 300 men would do.

Good battle but I think the Spartans take every round, but they take heavy casualties

@kgb725: Well a shield can only protect so much. The spartans would probably do the shield formation that the myrmidons did, but getting of the boat into formation and breaking off into a charge parts are where they'd be really exposed. Now if i remember correctly there was atleas 2 lines of archer units, one high uphill and one down at the beach, so the spartans would get shot from two multiple angles while dealing with the waves of infantry that'll be charging them. I don't see their shields to be enough cover for that.

@monsterstomp: Yeah, my thinking was more that most of the myrmidons are just there to keep the most of the spartans busy while achilles takes them out one by one. And then there's Hector and Ajax, Hector being a bit like Achilles only slower and Ajax being a big guy that could break the spartans formation with just a few swings with his hammer.

Leonidas has taken out someone much more intimidating than Ajex in their fight with the Immortals. So I think Leo can take him out. 50 fodder Myrmidons wouldn't really keep Spartans busy. The only noteworthy champions would be Achilles and Hector, but I think 10 Spartans can beat them purely on their teamwork.

@kgb725: @monsterstomp:

I think Achilles and his men take every round. Comparing the Spartans taking on thousands of Persians to Achilles and his myrmidon just doesn't make sense. They're two different battles and I'll explain why Achilles' soldiers were more impressive.

First off, taking the beach of Troy. It would of been defended by hundreds of men around the same number as the Spartans, probably more considering they were preparing for thousands of Greeks landing. You see Achilles and 50 men take the beach by themselves. They're fighting on sand, up hill, against arrows and spears flying everywhere. The Trojans have every advantage under the sun yet they take the beach no problem. They had won before the other Greeks even landed.

Then in the next battle, the Greeks have the Trojans on the run. Except Achilles and his myrmidon take a backseat because Achilles doesn't want to fight for Agamennon. Not a big deal though.. right? In a battle between about 4000+ soldiers. What's 50 going to change?

A lot actually, since the Trojans absolutely creamed the Greeks, and then proceeded to force them all the way back to the beach. There, they set their camp ablaze and killed even more of their men. Then Patroclus leads the myrmidon, they start pushing the Greeks back, and he goes and dies. However the Myrmidon bring the fight back and the Greeks once again have a chance thanks to Achilles and 50 others.

The point I'm making is, they were the most elite fighting force in Greek Mythology, and Achilles was a demigod who was never once touched in battle, or challenged, and died only because of Apollos intervention. The 300 are great and all but stabbing bloodthirsty, ravaging Persians who show little technique is something that is not out of the capabilities of the Myrmidon. They've achieved far better feats.

@i_like_swords: Nice analogy. To counter, I think Achilles men are pretty much fodder. There are a few named fighters by his side, but to be honest, none of the named fighters have feats of their own either. I think Achilles was the main game changer. Take him out of the battle and the Spartans could take the remainder. Their teamwork was 100% better IMO.

Then Patroclus leads the myrmidon, they start pushing the Greeks back, and he goes and dies.

They didn't push the Trojans back. They were still on the beach.

I forgot if the movie gave a date or not, but the Illiad poem takes place hundreds of years before Thermopylae. The Spartans are going to have an advantage in equipment. Their forging techniques will be better

Even the shileds they used were different too. Achilles had a crescent, Spartans were a full circle hoplon.

Also, assuming (like they would historically at least) the Spartans kept in phalanx formation, they're going to slaughter 50 men. The only real way you can defeat a phalanx is by flanking it or having a huge numbers advantage. 50 men isn't enough to overwhelm or flank them.. (Roman Infantry later develops techniques to defeat even the pike phalangites from the front, but that was hundreds of years later)

I'm calling a slight win for the Spartans on the first two rounds while Achilles + Hector and the rest of the men take the third comfortably. Both Hector and Achilles showed a respectable amount of skill compared to any of the individual Spartans, IMO of course. First two are interesting though. With 300, the Spartans were CLEARLY a lot better trained and conditioned when compared to enemies they fought in the Persian army. Call me crazy but both the men of Troy, lead by Hector himself and the men lead by Achilles, arguably outclassed the Spartans.

i honestly think achilles wins. his weakness is the heel... unless the spartans find out, he is going to breeze through em.

@i_like_swords: Well the big game changer by Achilles and his Myrmidons joining the fight was more of the big Moral boost to the entire 50,000 greek army by Achilles fighting beside them. Not exactly like the 50men tipped the scale on their own.

Achilles ftw, but only after a hard, drawn out battle....and then he dies at the end due to a bunch of arrows. Yeah, but I may just be biased as I liked Troy a heck of a lot more than I did 300.

Achilles stands a chance in round 1, giving the other 2 to Spartans.

No, they literally changed the game. Whenever they weren't there the Greeks suddenly stopped doing so well, yet when they were there the Trojans were forced back. Sure, moral would have gone up, but that's because Achilles and his myrmidon were so good.

I don't think we can call them fodder. For a start they are the elite 50 who serve Achilles, the greatest warrior in mythological Greece. As he says, they've fought in countless battles and bled for him numerous times. They are the elite fighting force in Greece at that time were constantly tipping the scales with their presence in Troy.

Also saying take Achilles out of the equation and the myrmidon lose, is like me saying take away any of the named characters from the Spartans out and Achilles' army would slaughter them. Both armies need leaders. I just feel like Achilles was the better leader and also more effective in battle himself. And you are right in saying Achilles is the main game changer, considering it's mentioned all throughout the film.

"How many battles have we won on the end of his sword"

"Achilles is just one man" "Hector is just one man. We need the best soldiers for the best army"

Good thing Achilles is in this fight. With his myrmidon.

About the Patroclus point. Put it this way, the Greeks were getting slaughtered from the time it was pitch black until early morning, not moving from the beach. Then Patroclus leads the myrmidon, morale rises significantly, and the Trojans are put on their heels. If not for Patroclus dying the Greeks would of retaken the beach through fighting opposed to a peace treaty. Time and time again the myrmidon save the day.

Edit: Just to say, I think Hector and Ajax would be capable of taking down plenty of Spartans of their own aswell. Ajax was nigh-unstoppable for a long time during Troy, only falling to Hector. And Hector prove himself to be a very talented warrior despite the fact Achilles embarrassed him. Those three could have a significant impact on how this battle pans out.

Spartans all rounds. Better soldiers, but not warriors.

Achilles and his team win rounds 1 and 2, but probably get slaughtered in round 3.

Bump

Achilles overestimation is still going strong on this site I see