Accelerator vs Wonder Woman

@xiokenji: What? No it isn't. It's basically just an indestructible whip. It doesn't negate powers.

Wonder Woman's lasso can negate powers now?

@sightlessreality: She doesn't often use the Tiara so finding another example will take time.

@pern: Based on Dedman's explation is seemed to neglect powers , I'm no expert on WW honestly that's why I said it would give her a chance.

Accelerator should win.

@pern: @nightwingx:It doesn't negate powers it negates lies. It kills Black Lanterns because they go against the Truth of the universe. Accelerator's powers defy the Laws of Physics and as such are lies so the Lasso will negate it.

@dedmanwalkin: That's not entirely accurate. All esper abilities aside from Touma & Sogiita can be explained by science. It's also this reason why espers need to perform calculations in order to use their abilities.

@sightlessreality: If your definition of something doesn't include every part of it, then your definition is incomplete. This is how science works. If one Esper's ability defies science then either he was never an esper or all espers defy science.

Math =/= Science. Some magic users use math just as much as science-based heroes. Ragman for instance has to calculate how many souls he'll need to perform a feat.

@dedmanwalkin: You might not like it but that's just how it is.

@sightlessreality: I have no feelings towards it. The Lasso will counter the Vector shield allowing her to hit him.

@dedmanwalkin: Assuming she does that right off the bat sure. I haven't said otherwise. But it's not going to put him down & the "Truth" will only fuel him.

@sightlessreality: No, he will go down to the Lasso. The Lasso hits like a Penance Stare when the user desires.

If that's true, then why didn't it work on every damn superhuman/god that she has ever encountered? WW has never negated abilities, whether or not they defy physics. Feats or GTFO.

@dedmanwalkin: & I'm saying that's not enough. It's been shown that saying or showing Accelerator the truth of his actions drive him into a rage on multiple occasions.

@etheral_dreams: It doesn't negates powers, it negates lies. That is exactly what I said. Here it is countering Black Lanterns because these people are supposed to be dead.

She doesn't even have it around the Black Lanterns here and she can take them out. Here she is countering a Red Lantern Ring because it turns you into something you are not:

Here is her Lasso shutting down Maxwell Lord's power which is based on lies:

I would that this would suffice. I showed it basically negating the powers of at least 3 people through its ability for truth. Not everyone's powers revolve around lies so it cannot always do that. Accelerator's powers are lying to the universe so it doesn't beat the Lasso.

@sightlessreality: Check my post above, the Rage of Red Lantern meant nothing to the Lasso. His rage will also mean nothing.

@etheral_dreams: He has a point. Its not that it negates powers it negates lies. Other powers aren't based on lies but supposedly you can interpret AIM fields as lies (which explains how Accelerator's powers defy physics). The argument for this is similar to the Illusion Breaker that someone uses in A Certain Index. Its an interesting loophole for sure, but because its so interesting I'm unsure about its viability.

This being said the lasso is indestructible, of infinite length, and listens only to it's wielder. It doesn't obey any physical laws, just Diana's will as per 'word of god'. The obvious question here then is could Accelerator do anything against the lasso in its normal function. Just as much as Accelerator manipulates reality to add energy to change magnitude and direction of vectors the lasso of truth defies all of physics and manipulates reality in order to accomplish its feats (such as surrounding the entire earth). So how would Accelerator's vector manipulation work on something that is effectively immovable? The old dilemma of an immovable object and an unstoppable force.

@dedmanwalkin:Still not seeing anything noteworthy.

Accelerator

@sightlessreality: Would stopping a Kryptonian cold work for you?

@sightlessreality: But doesn't the Illusion Breaker in A Index ... work on the same premise? His ability is to break illusions which in the fiction results in him not even having an AIM field. That alone is evidence that AIM is an illusion and that the lasso should work on the same principle. On top of that the lasso is purely magical and doesn't obey any commands but it's wielder's - this is an argument that it doesn't even have 'magical vectors' that could be redirected.

This doesn't mean WW wins; it just gives her another valid win condition.

What are Accel's win conditions? Projectile damage is out if we keep the bracelets on (WW wouldn't need to go 'Berserk' for Accel). He could redirect any attack she does so long as she is unaware of his powers but this would only send her flying or deal her damage that she is known to already be able to withstand. The 'plasma' argument is interesting and I'd like to see what is meant by that. Does he just touch people and vaporize them?

And can someone please explain why WW couldn't hit Accel based on the 'pullback' method that Kouma used?

@Faux_Man @DedmanWalkin

About Imagine Breaker: In the world of A Certain Magical Index, the world is made up of different "phases"; these phases are put in place by magic gods or other beings or groups with enough power to warp the universe. What a phase does ranges from altering the perception of reality to even altering the "truth". A phase that is in place can change the "truth"; for example, a phase can make 1+1=3. Once the phase is added, that is the "truth". The laws of the universe are effectively rewritten, and truth is changed.

Imagine Breaker, according to Ollerus, is the template for the "pure world". Imagine Breaker serves as the reference point for the "pure world" so that, in the case that a magic god distorts the world and has forgotten what it used to be, they have the blueprints to recreate the world how it used to be. Imagine Breaker cancels things that are not from the "pure world", namely, supernatural powers.

About Esper powers: Supposedly, all Esper powers in the Index universe are explainable by science via quantum theory; scientifically engineered Esper powers don't go against scientific laws. Some may be able to find their way around laws using other laws, but all Esper powers follow the laws of science. Has Wonder Woman ever negated a scientifically engineered phenomenon?

I'm not saying the lasso won't work, I'm just saying that although it MAY work, there's also a good chance that it won't. It can't really be determined.

About the pullback method: that is out of the question. Accelerator's vector transformation defense is invisible; there's absolutely no way to know where to pull back. Also, using the method requires a machine-like accuracy and precision that the brain can't replicate naturally. The one who used this method, Amata Kihara, actually developed Accelerator's vector defense himself. Even though he developed it and had more knowledge about Accelerator than anyone else, Kihara still had to have the pullback method programmed into his brain with a learning machine. Only a machine is able to pull that off.

Accelerator's win conditions: I believe we're only taking base Accelerator into account, so that means he really only has one, maybe two, win conditions.

As far as projectiles go, most of his projectiles won't even scratch her. The two I'd like to bring up are his plasma storm and his rotational vectors attack.

Plasma storm: He massively accelerates the vibrations of the particles he is in contact with (air in the main story) to superheat them into becoming 10,000 degree Celsius plasma. If Wonder Woman can handle the heat of the sun's surface like Superman, this attack won't do much. Can Wonder Woman take that kind of heat? I don't really know too many details about Wonder Woman.

Rotational Vectors attack: Accelerator can use the force of the earth's rotation to launch a projectile (a concrete wall in the novels). He drained 5 minutes of the earth's rotation and turned it into a super powered attack. Can Wonder Woman shrug that off, or would that at least do a little damage?

Accelerator's only definite win condition: The only definite way base Accelerator can win is by touching her. Once he touches her, he has many killing options, such as reversing her blood flow, causing her blood vessels and internal organs to burst, reversing her body's electrical signals, and more, but he has to touch her.

Wonder Woman's win conditions:

Lasso of truth:

It might be able to get past Accelerator's redirection, but I previously explained why it might not. It might work, but not for sure.

Wonder Woman's only definite win condition (so far): Wonder Woman is strong enough to destroy planets, I believe; so she could destroy the planet, leaving Accelerator with no air to breathe, effectively suffocating him. (But would she really do that?)

Thank you to everyone that read the whole thing!

@reaper_of_heaven: The Lasso of Truth only cares about 1 truth not the truths made by other people. Each of these Phases are a lie created by the Gods. If Imagine Breaker breaks it, then the Lasso should break it.

Wonder Woman is a machine when it comes to combat. She also has speed enough to not get blitzed by Kryptonians which means that she'll be able to actually test the range of his aura before he can even use it to do anything. She has fought herself so she can take several hits from herself.

Wonder Woman did not hesitate to put her fingers in Clark's eyes when he was bloodlusted. Clark's heat vision is as hot as the sun and she was completely unphased by it so plasma won't even slow her down.

She's taken hits from bloodlusted Kryptonians without a problem, Rotational Vector will do nothing to her.

If she has wrapped herself in the Lasso then Accelerator's touch attack is completely negated.

Basically, with the Lasso, she cuts off every win condition.

@dedmanwalkin:

About the Lasso of Truth: After a bit of research, I really don't think the lasso works like that. Granted, the lasso DID take destroy the power of the black lantern rings; however, the reason was not that it can negate "powers that are lies", the reason was that she imbued the lasso with "the power of love". Corny, I know, but that was the point of the comic. The black lantern rings are weak to artifacts imbued with human emotion, and Wonder Woman used that to her advantage with cleverness and quick thinking. If you want to use the lasso like that, please give proof that it can negate powers.

Even if the lasso did work, there's no way that Wonder Woman would know that it would negate Accelerator's powers, and I doubt the lasso is the first thing she'll use in a fight.

About the Pullback Method: I don't think I made it clear; the way the brain is designed doesn't allow for that kind of precision and accuracy. Amata Kihara was a scientific genius that knew Accelerator inside and out, including his personality and ability; however, even Amata Kihara had to use a learning machine to even be able to pull it off; when doing that specific action, he demonstrated inhuman skill.

Wonder Woman can try, but she would only be able to gamble each time she tried, hoping for a lucky shot. Each time she hits the aura, her hand will be reflected while her arm is still moving forward, which, if she's just tapping, won't be a problem. If she's hitting moderately hard, it will slowly do damage to her wrist, and, if she hits hard enough, her wrist will break. Every time she pulls back too early she'll be vulnerable while she waits for Accelerator's reflection to activate, which gives Accelerator multiple opportunities to touch her. Every time she pulls back too late, Accelerator has an opportunity to touch her while she's reeling from the damage. The worst spot to be while fighting Accelerator is close to him.

Also, before Wonder Woman can even use the pullback method, she has to: 1. Figure out what Accelerator's ability is, 2. Figure out the weakness in his reflection (which is nearly impossible, considering that the only one who knew it was the one who created it), and 3. Pound away randomly and hope to get lucky. I really don't see Wonder Woman, or anyone else for that matter, figuring these things out from scratch.

About Plasma Storm: So Superman clearly used his heat vision on her and it had no effect? If so, then plasma is out of the question.

About Rotational Vector Attacks: If she can take an attack that uses a planet's force without batting an eye, then I don't see the rotational vector attack being of much use.

About Win Conditions: Unless you can show me an instance where the Lasso of Truth actually does negate a power using it's power of truth, I'm not going to continue pointlessly arguing against it. I'll debate it once I know it's possible.

Accelerator's win condition is still touching her, and if Wonder Woman can actually figure out about the pullback method, or if she tries to go for direct attacks, Accelerator would have a much easier time touching her.

Wonder Woman's only feasible win conditions at this point are destroying the planet, or getting a lucky shot with the pullback method. And my saying "lucky shot" is a massive understatement.

How would his vectors work against holds? Or against being tied up?

@chimeroid:

Short answer: They'd be redirected.

Long answer: what a lot of people don't understand about Accelerator is that his defense is NOT repulsion; it's reflection. He doesn't push things away; he changes the direction that they're going. That's why he said that his reflection works better on stronger people; not because he overpowers them, but because he uses their strength and changes its direction.

Now... I said all that to say this: if you try to grab him, whatever you used to grab him, be it hands or legs or whatever, they will be sent back the direction they came. Same thing if you tie him up; the rope will never actually touch him, it'll just be sent the other way. In the case of a lasso, if you try to yank it to tighten it, the rope will be redirected to be wide open, and it'll actually end up pulling you to him. Direct attacks really don't work on Accelerator; I actually think this is a mismatch, personally.

So, he is literally untouchable? Has he ever been touched by an opponent in his story line?

@reaper_of_heaven:

The Lasso

I showed the lasso working on more than just Black Lanterns. I showed a Kryptonian, Red Lantern, and Metahuman as being rendered powerless by the Lasso.

1. Supergirl's legs were not bound and she can still fly yet she was completely unable to move? Why? The only factor is the Lasso!
2. The Red Lantern Ring works by replacing your heart and blood with solid rage. There is no reason she should have not been able to keep attacking unless the Lasso calmed her rage enough to render her powers useless.
3. Maxwell Lord's powers are about creating illusions and making people act in ways that are not true. The Lasso rendered that power useless.

Everything about Espers says that what they do is lying to reality. The Lasso functions similarly to Touma's Illusion/Imagination Breaker. In order to counter the Lasso, you'd have to show Accelerator countering the Imagination Breaker. But let's up the ante shall we!

She doesn't even hesitate to wrap her hand in the Lasso and uses it to punch right through a Green Lantern Construct as though it was glass. His construct isn't real and the Lasso just negated it.

Her go to action once physical action doesn't work is the Lasso. She'll figure out that he has some form of shield and switch to the Lasso before he even knows what is going on.

Pullback

This only comes into play should you prove that the Lasso will not work. Ive more than shown that it will work.

What was Batman's answer to Wonder Woman in Tower of Babel? A machine designed for endless combat. I bring this up because only a machine could counter her fighting ability. That's right, Batman couldn't come up with a better option than a Machine designed to fight her. This is he precision that you are saying that Wonder Woman lacks.

She has basically unlimited time to figure out how to get through it. Again, she has fight herself and Clark without issue so she should be able to figure this out before Accelerator even knows what happened.

Win Conditions

Accelerator

She is too fast and too skilled for her to touch him without her allowing it to happen. He doesn't even get within an inch of her without her permission.

Even if he did there is no evidence that this would kill her. She is durable inside and out. You'd have to show him being able to take out nothing short of a moon before it can be believed that he can hurt her with this attack.

He has 1 win condition that he only gets to use if she allows him to use it and it may not even work. Basically, he has to be extremely lucky to even have a chance at victory. His best possible option is a STALEMATE not victory.

Wonder Woman

1. I've shown that the Lasso will work with way more evidence than has been brought against it. It wins this battle for her
2. She pullback punches him out.
3. She cracks the planet causing a loss of atmosphere suffocating him.

There are probably a number of other things that I have not considered but she has at least 3 which Accelerator has no answer for.

Conclusion

Accelerator has an interesting power but it is not enough for him to beat the Princess. Its 1 possible victory conditions versus her 3+ confirmed victory conditions. He simply cannot win against her.

How in hell is ww winning this at all??? Is there a rule or something that's even allowing her to touch this man??? The ww wank is great here. Or the lack of knowledge on accel.

@dedmanwalkin: None of those showings are that great though due to context.

@sightlessreality: What do you mean? I can provide context if you so desire.

This is all a bit problematic considering no real feat (scan or quotation) has been presented here for Accelerator despite his relative obscurity. Much less has context been provided.

@dedmanwalkin: Well for one, your whole "It worked on a lantern" so it'll work on a Accel. Which in of itself is rather faulty. For one you say it negated but that is contradicted by the fact it was shattered. If it was simply negated it would have passed through. Two, you also say the constructs aren't real. Which is also false. Lantern constructs, are as durable as the emotion the welder puts into the into it. Showing that the construct shattered just proves that point.

Another littler thing, WW can clearly see that Lantern Construct which is not the case for Accel's Vector Shield. You also say that because WW is an amazing fighter she'll magically figure out the pull back method. In a random encounter this isn't happening.

Now if you can show me an instance of the Lasso ignoring a reflection based ability I might6 concede. However, based on the evidence provided there's nothing that says it won't get redirected.

Edit: @sightlessreality

The lasso is a magical and mythical construct itself with an infinite length and the ability to never be broken (except once when it literally broke truth). The lasso obeys it's wielder's commands and can engulf whole planets. Furthermore, the feats provided prove that the lasso has the ability to weaken or destroy falsehoods. There is a reason that scene has WW punching a lantern construct with the lasso in hand and I feel that you are only considering it as an accident.

Furthermore, WW is an expert warrior, the best of Earth in DC lore. This skill has put her on top of many people more powerful than herself. To assume that she'd only continue to punch into a reflecting shield implies insanity on Diana's part. Her experience would teach her to continue with new approaches.

=========================

I do see a trend of people asking for more and more proof of WW feats, or one sentence claims of irrelevancy, than is being done towards Accelerator. I feel his nigh omnipotence in A Certain Index has lead many to just handwave the battle as a forgone conclusion without much thought, but I think it is true that WW's present feats has more than proven her abilities (without being methodically debunked) and has at the very least created a strong argument for Diana being able to go toe to toe with Accelerator in a worthy fight.

Undoubtedly Accelerator could put up a great fight for Diana; absorbing energy from anywhere, or supernaturally changing the magnitude of any vector is nothing to scoff at (can he send something near light-speed?). But Diana has a history of fighting world breakers herself - and, depending on the version of WW, pre-new 52 she was literally made of magic, she could prove problematic for many of Accel's known feats. Even her current demi-god origin could prove to put the kibosh on Accelerator's touch-kills.

The more and more I see this debate well argued from both sides the more I enjoy the fictitious battle that would occur between these two characters.

@reaper_of_heaven@dedmanwalkin

This was a great debate and a wonderful discussion. It was well controlled and well argued and well reasoned, on both sides. Ultimately, a debate isn't just about trying to change an opinion - its more about the process of logical argumentation - and in that capacity I think you both have more than excelled.

I feel that I can't add much to the debate any further so I'll bow out and lurk from time to time. I much enjoyed this, thank you.

@sightlessreality:

It did what it was supposed to do, negation is the act of removing the functionality of the thing. Did that construct shield him in anyway like it was supposed to? Nope, she was able to ignore it completely. The Lasso of Truth wasn't surrounding the Construct it was only hitting it. This was like getting hit by the outside of an explosion. She could have completely dispelled the construct had she roped it but that would have taken more time and not fit in with her overall strategy.

The nature of Lantern Constructs is a whole other discussion that would not benefit this one but if you want to get into it, we can.

You describe only the effects of his powers not how they are achieved. He may reflect things but it is not how he does it. His powers are countered by a power known as Illusion Killer/Imagine Breaker, from a guy whose catch phrase is "I will destroy that illusion of yours." Espers like Accelerator undergo Personal Reality training designed to allow them to master their ability by replacing reality with their own. It is literally an illusion! Illusions are lies and those cannot survive within the Lasso of Truth. Show me Accelerator's powers working on Imagine Breaker and we can talk but as his powers have not, he is vulnerable to the Lasso.

Wonder Woman has the casual strength to drop a mountain on someone; at full exertion she can move a 3rd of the planet. Every time she picks up a pen and doesn't disintegrate it in her fingers is a precision act akin to building a tower out of a feathers. She has ridiculous level of control that makes Kihara Amata's gloves and skills look like a baby eating with a fork for the first time. Once she sees that the exact force she is putting into her punch is being redirected, she'll make the connection that he is simply reflecting her force in some manner. Now after multiple hits she'll ascertain the dimensions of the field. By then, she'll ascertain that the only way to pierce it would be apply destructive interference to her attacks. This is basically a pullback and surprise, she already has training for it! See, when you use a Lasso, you have to accurately judge when to pull back to produce the desired action. If you do it too late, you fail and too early, you fail. It has to be exact especially against superhumanly fast foes. She knows this which when combined with her control should allow her to do it with no problems. She is smarter than most realize.

@dedmanwalkin:

You definitely brought your A-game this time...! I need to figure out how to do all that fancy stuff to make my posts look more presentable.

About the Lasso: I'm just going to be honest here; if I read any of those scans (the Green Lantern and the Supergirl[?] one) on my own without your negation statement, I would come to a completely different conclusion.

Supergirl(?) Scan: That Supergirl one isn't really convincing; I can easily explain it without any negation involved. By the thoughts of Supergirl(?), it can easily be inferred that they were equals in power, but Wonder Woman had more experience. Wonder Woman tied her up with the indestructible lasso, so Supergirl had already lost; trying to fly would just make her look like a fool struggling to get away; I don't see a hint of negation involved.

Green Lantern Scan: this one is a little more convincing, but still, it can also be explained without negation. The whip is much more durable than the lantern shield, to me, it just looked like Wonder Woman was using the rope like a brass knuckle to make her punch stronger; if you didn't mention negation ability, it would never have come to mind.

If you could show me the Red Lantern scan I would appreciate it, otherwise I can't really get a good picture of what's happening.

To me it just looks like the negation is being tacked on to prove a point; I don't think that's the conclusion that the readers would come to without outside influence, and I don't think it's the conclusion that the writers had. Is there some sort of statement made that makes it clear? Because I really can't see it unless I force myself to. It just doesn't seem clear to me. Comics are usually pretty good about making abilities clear, but this one just isn't clear. It's like trying to say Touma Kamijou has supersonic reaction time because he dodges attacks from supersonic fighter, even though it's clearly stated that his body's physical stats are not superhuman. It's later revealed that he has slight form of precognition due to his fighting experience; that's why he's able to fight characters like Accelerator. It looks like you're trying to give her a power that it has never been stated that she has.

About the Pullback Method: I really don't know how much better I can explain it, but she will not be able to pull it off with no prior knowledge. There's no way to even figure out that Accelerator has that weakness; it won't even occur to Wonder Woman. It wouldn't occur to anyone. There's no way to know unless you're told. Amata Kihara DEVELOPED the field; that's the only reason he knows. Forget about actually trying the method; she won't even figure out that it exists. The best she can do is figure out that his ability is Vector Transformation, and even that's a stretch. The "Sisters" are supposed to be geniuses, and they fought him and were killed over 10,000 times trying to find a way to exploit his ability, and they couldn't figure it out.

Does Wonder Woman have genius level intellect?

Conclusion: I'm still not convinced at all about the lasso, I would like some concrete proof. That aside, I still strongly believe that Accelerator takes this; Wonder Woman does not have the intelligence or ability to bypass Accelerator's reflection. Whether she knows about the pullback punch or not, the battle will end up with her punching herself until she knows better, but she'll be operating at full stress the entire time which will drain her energy. She'll wear herself out trying to find ways to bypass Accelerator's reflection, and one misstep will spell defeat. She won't be able to fight forever, and the pressure's on her; she has to find a way to win while not getting touched, assuming she knows that a touch is instant death. Wonder Woman will probably not destroy earth to kill one guy, so that method is unlikely. Of course, this is only base Accelerator I'm talking about.

@dedmanwalkin: O.o Uhh, you do know Accelerator has used his vector manipulation successfully on Touma right?

Precision my ass. Pulling microscopic matter from an entirely different dimension > WW

She'll break her arm after the first hit.

In his weakest state he pulled 5 full minutes worth of energy from the earth rotation. That beats WW's top exertion.

And again nothing you'v described has would indicate that the lasso would work.

@faux_man:

I do see a trend of people asking for more and more proof of WW feats, or one sentence claims of irrelevancy, than is being done towards Accelerator. I feel his nigh omnipotence in A Certain Index has lead many to just handwave the battle as a forgone conclusion without much thought, but I think it is true that WW's present feats has more than proven her abilities (without being methodically debunked) and has at the very least created a strong argument for Diana being able to go toe to toe with Accelerator in a worthy fight.

Not related to this discussion, but just stating in case you're involved in future Raildex discussions, you should know Accelerator is not a top tier in Raildex, and even in his strongest form is barely in the high tiers. Just trying to battle the misconception many people have that Accelerator is the most powerful being in Raildex when he's actually not all that strong. It often leads to people having an odd idea of how the setting works, which can be unfortunate.

@sightlessreality:

Do you think using the earth's rotational vectors to attack will do any significant damage to Wonder Woman? Does that stack up against a kryptonian? I was told that she's taken attacks like that one without a problem.

@reaper_of_heaven: That was a direct response to a strength feat. And yes, it could if he pulled a days worth, hell an hour could do some damage.

@sightlessreality: I asked for scans and you give me words?

Show me Accelerator getting through Imagine Breaker.

She is wearing the Bracers, her punches won't break her arms ever as they'll never get past the Bracers.

Nope, 5 minutes worth of energy does not equal moving a third of Earth many miles. I'd like to see this feat.

A character this obscure doesn't get to skate by on mere words, you need feats.

You have still yet to prove that Accelerator can do anything to Diana. I've presented multiple strategies that would allow her to take down Accelerator. You've only presented enough evidence for a Stalemate.

@reaper_of_heaven:Thanks for the compliment try reading TTBA's formatting thread.

The Lasso

You probably have never read Golden Perfect, it truly showcases the power of the Lasso. I can't provide scans because it would violate the scans rule. But if you had, you'd know that the Lasso doesn't just make you tell the truth, it IS truth. Wonder Woman broke it and it literally broke all of reality! It is ridiculously powerful and even Wonder Woman is afraid of its power.

Supergirl

You'd have a point if she hadn't thought, "How did she-- I can't move!!" She is in the Lasso's power, she can't even think a lie. So her words are not hyperbole which means she literally cannot move. So despite the fact that as a Kryptonian she can fly and that her legs are unbound so she could stand if she wanted, she thinks she can't move. Explain that!

The experience she is talking about is her previous fights with Superman who has the same powers as Supergirl. She has already fought this battle before.

Green Lantern

You must not understand how Brass Knuckles work if you think that the Lasso would make an effective one. See this one:

See that back part, it rests against your palm so that your fingers don't take any of the damage. Without that back part, that Brass Knuckle would do nothing to help you and would result in potentially broken fingers. Wonder Woman is a warrior with more weapons knowledge than any person on Earth and you think she is going to use her Lasso to punch through a Construct?

You'd have a point if she did this every time she went up against someone with high durability but she didn't when she fought Superman, Supergirl, or literally any other person but against a Green Lantern she decides to do that? Explain that!

Red Lantern and Maxwell Lord

I posted it above after the Black Lantern Scan and the Maxwell Lord is right below that. She completely negates his control of Superman while within.

Captain Nazi

Want to see her make a Nazi cry with the Lasso?

That's Captain Nazi, he is powered by hatred as the living embodiment of Nazi ideals. All that hatred is NOTHING to the Lasso. He is also a Superman-level foe.

Summary

I am not tacking on anything, it is the only conclusion when you know enough about the Lasso. It doesn't compel truth, IT IS TRUTH! Accelerator's power is a lie so the Lasso negates.

You think comics are explicit on powers?

Pullback

She knows how much power she hits with because she has to because if she loses it in battle with a human, she kills them. Every punch is a measured reaction to that point that she can even control her vocal cords enough to mimic anyone's voice in seconds. She'll recognize that every hit she makes is coming back to her. Now this is where things get interesting, after Wonder Woman lost her vision to Medusa, Athena linked her own eyes to Diana. This means that she has God Vision and more to the point she has the Goddess of Wisdom and War vision:

She doesn't need machines to see the field and figure out how to beat it, she has the Wisdom of Athena. Using this she can see gather all the information she needs to pull off the punch.

More Win Conditions

But you bring up a good point, she doesn't even have to fight here. She has an Amazonian lifespan which far exceeds Accelerators. She could just fly to space and chill and let him die of old age. She can survive with no problem but he'll die.

She can also extend the Lasso to any length and using Superspeed, she could literally weave a ball around him. The Lasso is indestructible so no amount of vector manipulation will break it so he is trapped. As long as she holds the other end, he is trapped. He'll run out of air and should he chose to touch it, then he loses.

She could also just create a vortex and suck the air out of his lungs.

Conclusion

You have still failed to show that his touch could kill anyone on her durability level. I've given multiple ways in which he loses and you've failed to provide even one were he can win.

@dedmanwalkin: All irrelevant. ^_^ It's fun wasting your time. And you still haven't dictated a valid reason WW winning. Mahahahahaha

@sightlessreality: You are right, I have not dictated A valid reason I have dictated 6.

1. I've shown that the Lasso will work with way more evidence than has been brought against it. It wins this battle for her
2. She pullback punches him out.
3. She cracks the planet causing a loss of atmosphere suffocating him.
4. She simply outlives him through her Amazonian Aging.
5. She weaves a ball of Lasso of Truth around him suffocating him.
6. She creates a vortex of air around him suffocating him.

If you are not willing to actually debate then perhaps you should stop posting. I'll just take your inability to actually provide evidence as a concession of defeat. It was fun debating I guess.

Since you have lost here maybe you can post a reply in Jac's Tourney.

Accelerator's advocates aren't making any good points. Underestimating Wonder Woman rather than actually giving reasons why she would lose.

Wonder Woman wins this fight by the way.

@dedmanwalkin: On a serious note. While the feats for Accel to win exist I don't have my pdf's of the Light Novels anymore to provide them. Until I can you'll just have to take my word on it.

1. No all the showing have put it at only being indestructible nothing else
2. Not happening
3. I doubt she'd do that and Accel would survive anyways
4. Wouldn't work
5. Would just pull all the wind currents of the earth

Haven't lost & I'll post when I feel like it.

Oh and luckily a certain someone had a thread for Accel so here's that's earth rotation feat in his weakest form

Accelerator

@dedmanwalkin:

Thanks; I'll try doing that when I get a chance to use the computer.

About the Lasso: That sounds cool, but unlike in the DC universe, and frankly, unlike in the real world, in the Raildex world, truth isn't absolute. At least that's how it was portrayed with the introduction of the magic gods. The truth can be rewritten; Imagine Breaker is a BLUEPRINT in case a magic god needs to return the world back the way it was, or to give them an outline on how to build a world. It was either in NT9 or NT10 that Othinus stated that she COULD recreate the world from the ground up if she wanted to, but adding phases is easier; they're almost the same thing; they're rewriting the laws of the universe, and a new "truth" is born. That's what makes magic gods so dangerous; they can take something that to humans is absolute and change it.

About Supergirl: To me, this scene is very clear; she says she can't move because she can't. Her arms are tied up; the word "I" is also ambiguous in this situation. Normally, it's easily inferred that she means that she can't move the part that is tied up, which makes perfect sense. What you just said implies that the lasso is making her unable to stand. Supergirl's ability to stand is NOT a supernatural ability; even her strength isn't supernatural in that way. They're her natural physical strength, and if you're saying that it cancels natural abilities that aren't lies, then the Lasso of Truth isn't even truth anymore, which undermines the entire argument.

Honestly, I don't see anything in this scene that hints at negation at all. Of all the scans posted, this one is by far the least convincing.

About Green Lantern: Her knowledge of weapons is exactly why I thought she would do something creative like that; she punches a wall and breaks it; the construct isn't indestructible; she uses the lasso to make the hit more solid or even to protect her hand. Look more closely at the scan; my pictures didn't upload.

Top picture: She begins to wrap the whip around her fist.

Middle picture: She secured it around her knuckles.

Bottom picture: She punches the wall with her protected knuckles and it shatters. She BROKE it.

Again, negation would never have crossed my mind, or the minds of countless others, had you not previous implanted that thought into my mind.

Superman and Supergirl are flesh and blood, not solid walls that will shatter when punched; protection isn't really necessary.

About Red Lantern: It turns out that Red Lanterns are also weak to the "power of love"; so isn't this scene just as likely, if not more, an example of her ability to channel love through her lasso? I don't see a good reason to turn this scene into a negation issue.

About Maxwell Lord: this is by far the best evidence that's been posted about negation. If I can properly guess the context, Maxwell is making Superman see illusions, but as long as he's tied up by the lasso, he can't use them. So obviously, illusions are lies; so that makes sense; however, can she negate an illusion that is brought about using scientific methods? For example, in NT volume 4, Ransuu Kihara uses genetically engineered plants to cause hallucinations and illusions the he can control. Can she negate an illusion explainable by science?

Also, it is stated clearly that Esper powers don't defy physics; every power is explainable by science. Esper powers are not illusions. Esper powers can cause illusions, but they aren't illusions themselves. That's why Academy City is able to produce the Five.Over machines. They analyze an esper ability and reproduce it using only technology. This was done with Mikoto Misaka's ability and was almost done with Misaki Shokuhou's ability until Touma rescued her from the machine that was analyzing her ability. Teitoku Kakine even replicated Accelerator's ability to a certain extent using his Bettle's wing vibrations to redirect kinetic motion in NT volume 6.

You've stated that esper abilities defy physics, but, according to cannon, that simply isn't true.

Again, it's impossible for me to prove that the Lasso can't negate anything unless it's clearly stated; it's like trying to prove Bigfoot doesn't exist. I can't prove it, all I can do is debunk any evidence that's brought up.

Captain Nazi: This was a wonderful showing of the Lasso's ability to reveal truth. Also, I've NEVER heard of Captain Nazi before... That's an... Interesting villain...

About the Pullback Method: First of all, wisdom and intelligence are very different. Wisdom isn't going to help her too much in this fight.

I really don't know how else to word this, but there isn't any way for her to even begin discovering the pullback method. It's even more unlikely than inventing a plane when there isn't a single thing on the planet that can fly. It just isn't happening.

There's nothing to see, it's not a field, it's just an area where his ability is active.

Win Conditions:

Wonder Woman:

Well, in a fight, I don't think running away counts as a valid win condition.

Considering there's no concrete proof that the Lasso can negate powers that aren't illusions, Accelerator doesn't even need to break it, he can just control the vectors and "unweave" the ball.

Creating a vortex to take his air away is creating a storm of vectors; Accelerator can easily control the air and return it to himself; he did it in his first fight with Touma, and he continues to control the air around him as a regular method of combat.

What other win conditions were there that Wonder Woman would use?

To start things off, I read a wiki that listed Wonder Woman's powers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it said that Wonder Woman is vulnerable to piercing damage, mainly swords and arrows, but also bullets. The bullets won't provide fatal injuries, but they still do damage.

Accelerator:

Piercing attacks: Accelerator can shoot shards of rock, metal, or other various things with more than enough piercing force to surpass a bullet or arrows. He shoots bullet-like attacks many times, but I thought it was irrelevant because I thought Wonder Woman was bullet-proof. Accelerator can (obviously) launch sharp projectiles as well as blunt ones, so he can even do some damage from a distance to help tire her out.

Plasma Storm: I read the part where Wonder Woman shoves her thumbs into Superman's eyes; before she does, he shoots her cheek. When he shoots her cheek, it produces a burn that is probably nothing more than a first degree burn; however, when your entire body is covered in a first degree burn, it's more than a minor annoyance. That's what would happen if she were hit by the plasma. All movement will be significantly hindered and cause a great deal of pain. Another method to weaken and wear Wonder Woman out.

Rotational Vector Attack: it took me a bit of research and math, but I figured out how much force is in 5 minutes of the earth's rotation combined into one attack. Wonder Woman can pull a third of the earth's mass, or 1.991 x 10^24 Kg. Note she can PULL it, not LIFT it. Accelerator's rotational attack using an entire 5 minutes of rotational force combined is 4.6875 x 10^24 kg. that's over TWICE the maximum strength displayed by Wonder Woman. There's no way that she's taking that attack without suffering some serious damage.

Accelerator's touch: Let me explain; with Accelerator's touch, durability is a non-factor. Once he touches Wonder Woman, he can take control of her blood flow or her body's electrical signals; both of which the body can't live without. Once he takes control of the blood flow, he can use the blood to cause her blood vessels and internal organs to burst; Wonder Woman may be durable on the outside, but chances are there's no way to strengthen her organs. And, in case there are feats for her liver or something, he can just change the flow of blood so that it doesn't reach where it needs to, or he can even just reverse the blood flow and mess up her body internally.

Another thing he can do is take control of the body's electrical signals. Once he reverses the signals sent, the body shuts down; nothing can function without the electrical signals; it's just another instant kill method.

Also, while he's touching her, he is in direct contact with her body, meaning that it's impossible to escape, because he can just change the vectors or transfer her momentum into something else.

I hope you can see that how hard a punch you can take has no effect on Accelerator's methods of killing once he touches his target: durability is a non-factor.

Conclusion:

I've shown you many options that Accelerator has that can ultimately lead him to victory. With the Lasso not clearly proven to negate Accelerator's ability, the nigh impossibility of Wonder Woman using Kihara's pullback method, and showing how your suggestions for Wonder Woman's victory are not valid, the chances of Wonder Woman winning this are negligible.

Accelerator will wear her out with projectiles, and she will occasionally damage herself trying to break through Accelerator's reflection. If Accelerator lands the rotational vector attack or plasma storm, it will greatly shorten the battle, making it even easier for him to touch Wonder Woman and end it.

@sightlessreality: I'll start believing you when I have the feats available. So until then, you have no real arguments!

1. Just indestructible? I showed her using the Lasso to attack Captain Nazi's Soul!
2. Yeah, it is. Eyes and Wisdom of Athena should allow her to do this.
3. Nothing in this battle says the world is populated which allows her to cut loose.
4. He is human, he will die in 100-ish years, she will die much much later. She wins by default and there is nothing that he can do about it.
5. Just a "Wouldn't work?" Weaving is easy and is even something she knows how to do! She can also move so fast that he wouldn't even know what is happening. No amount of vectors would even make it budge.
6. Wouldn't matter, she produces more force than all the wind currents on the planet. He can't pull enough energy to get through in the time it would take for her to create a vacuum. She is far faster than anything he has ever fought. She has fought Zoom while Blind and was able to get hits on him.

Finally a feat to take it apart!

Basically, he is draining the movement of the Earth and putting it into a concrete wall? That is retarded! Now for some math!

The earth's velocity is at about 465 meters a second (Earth's Circumference is about 40074 kilometers and the time in a day is 86164 seconds 40074/86164=.465 x 1000 to convert to meters = 465).

We take that velocity and square it and divide by the radius of Earth to get the acceleration which gives us about .033 accleration (465 squared is 216225 which when divided by the 6371 kilometers radius of earth we get .033 when converted into meters).

We take the acceleration and multiply it by the weight of earth to get 1.9708227 x 10^23 Newtons(The weight of earth is 5.97219 × 10^24 kgs).

In five minutes the earth moves 139500 meters in 5 minutes (60 seconds x 5 = 300 which when multiplied by the 465 velocity we get 139500 meters).

So we multiply them together to get the energy he put into the concrete wall which is 2.7943 x 10^28 joules or 3285 teratons or 21900000 times the power of our most powerful nuclear weapon. Assuming a 2 ton concrete wall and 5 second travel time we get a speed of 5130000000 times the speed of light.

That is alot of energy! In fact a hit like that would produce enough of a shockwave to level the entire city and damn near half the planet. This is an extinction level event. Now the feat specifically states that it kills no one and that he was not taking care to not kill anyone. Feel free to check my math but his feat is either massive PIS/WIS or is massive Hyperbole. Who is the narrator of the book?

Now I HAVE to see the feats because if they are anything like this one then we can just dismiss them outright as hyperbole and continue with the real debate.

@dedmanwalkin: What? The feat is right there in front of you plain as day and your trying to shrug it away. Well golly me surprised. While I'll admit it is wonky but it can't be taken away. It happened thee way it happened. After all the day was extended by a full five minutes. And why would you dismiss them as hyperbole if they are like this.

@dedmanwalkin:

About the Rotational Vector Attack: The reason the attack is so strong is that Accelerator literally put everything he had into this attack. In order to pull these things off, he needs inhuman intellect, which he has thoroughly proven. In the Three Stories Arc, Accelerator literally rewrote someone's brain on the fly by manipulating electric signals with NO prior knowledge on how to do it. His intelligence is his greatest weapon. It's what his ability depends on.

Why the earth wasn't wrecked: It was later explained that the building Accelerator attacked, Aliester's Windowless Building, is made of a special material devised by Aliester: Calculate Fortress. This material analyses the force that attacks it and instantly reacts by nullifying the force with another force of equal strength. The building reduced the impact and the shockwave of Accelerator's attack to zero.

If it sounds crazy that Aliester invented something so strong, keep in mind that Aliester held his own against 3 magic gods. The magic gods stated that they live in a separate universe in infinity because they would accidentally destroy the universe if they so much as moved an arm or leg. Aleister fought 3 of them. In that light, reducing a half-planet level attack to nothing isn't too surprising.

Also, the narrator is 3rd person omniscient. It is clearly stated that he used 5 minutes of the earth's rotation; I don't see anything that hints at hyperbole. Accelerator was having an emotional breakdown, attacked with all his might, and it was canceled out. It's that simple.

@sightlessreality: I am not shrugging it away, math is. Careless Extinction Level Event + No Death = BS. BS feats are not included.

When analyzing a feat we go by the effects not by what is said. Slowing the Earth would cause the Pacific Ocean to drown California and Hawaii and Western Europe, Japan, India, and western Arfrica. It would destabilize the Moon. This would in effect change the angle of rotation causing a massive shift in climate. The stress alone would cause earthquakes and volcanoes to erupt worldwide. The air would fill with enough Volcanic Ash to blot out the sun for more than a month. Accelerator would be responsible for the deaths of billions, darkened skies, massive climate irregularities. The feat specifically states that no injuries and no deaths occurred which means that the feat is complete BS. Unless you have an alternate explanation for it, we exclude it because that is how debates work. No Alternate Explanation = No Feat!