accelerator (a certain magical index) vs flash

@shadovvlite: Technically,all forms of fictional media are connected to each other either cannon or non-cannon.Several series have build it own multiple multiverses and make them different from other series' multiverses,but still be connected to each other.The Presence clearly stated he is below his creators aka the the writers and the Primal Monitor is the blank page that the writers/artists create.

This topic is still irrelevant to the thread

@osiris_phantom: Magic in the Index series isn't really explain by science.Magic in general come from mana which is the life embodied of nature.To Aru's magician still convert that natural life force into magic for the sake becoming talented since they were never talented since birth.

Accelerator still takes the majority. Speed stealing still involves absorbing kinetic energy, a vector quantity, meaning Accelerator control that process and reverse it. Remember a vector is anything with magnitude and direction, which encompasses virtually all forms of matter and energy. Dumping him in the speed force won't work either since Accelerator can control dimensional vectors.

@thekillerklok: @random_nerd: @homicidalmaniac: thanks guys. i'll buy the novels as they're released to support the author but for now time to use that link XD

@shadovvlite: no i didnt say speed steal did, i simply said using his power to control his own vectors or vectors around him he would still be capable of movement. And removing someone from the timeline, isnt just a poof magical kind of thing, time isnt a vector or accelerator would be god, but being teleported or removed from anything moved through whatever system is a vector of sorts.

No Batman gets stomped too.

@random_nerd: But if he is removed from time, then he ceases to exist, but your saying he can go back to his original spot even when his existence turned irrelevant? How does that work? This type of BFR is a angle, not vector, as vector is direction and magnitude, but a angle only has direction, which the Speed Force is, as there is nothing to measure from nothing.

@talon_deadeye: I think he was joking lol

@etheral_dreams: Speed is not a Vector, its a Scalar. It only has magnitude (without direction) and from what I know/have been told about Accelerator, he can only control Vectors and not Scalars. So anything with Scalar Quantities should be able to work against Accelerator. Flash can use speed steal and speed dump, however he cannot do something like an infinite mass punch, because although mass is a Scalar it also uses momentum which is a Vector.

It's always frustrating to fight Index characters, since they're designed to be untouchable for anything except Touma =__=

Personally I join the opinion that Speed Force dump would probably work in first two cases. Or, since battlefield isn't defined, we can assume he runs to Fortress of Solitude, borrows Phantom Zone projector and dumps Accelerator there.

@kyle_dornez: Nah most Index characters are not as high Tier,

Take the titular characters Touma and Index as terrifying as they are and place them against the flash... Not as pretty of a fight.

Yeah... Flash would probably beat up Touma even without superpowers, given that Touma is a teenager, and Wally is thirty-something trained by Batman... Unless of course light novel feats, where his arm is Lucifer or something... But I digress.

@kyle_dornez:
depending of rules of that battle (no power wally) it could go either way due to various spoilerific reasons. but let's try not to get into that.

@deathhero61: where the hell did u come from we already adressed all the points in that arguement.

@osiris_phantom: u would be incorrect on that point. U see speed in itself is not a vector. But running moving and accessing the speed force to utilize it in varitably any way, is using a vector. Stealing his speed is stealing his kinetic vectors, which he controls. Dumping him in the speed force requires moving jim in some way into the speed force? That movement would be a vector. It wouldnt happen. Just because speed is scalar doesnt mean speed steal and speed dump dont use vectors. @shadovvlite: im not saying he could get out, im saying hed never be put in.

@random_nerd: But Flash doesn't need to run or utilize any type of direction and magnitude to steal speed. He manipulates the fundamental notion of "motion" directly. Also, for the Speed Force dump, he can be put in there because it's not a vector if there's no magnitude.

@shadovvlite: ur missing the point with speed steal. Taking his speed juat takes his ability to move its not actually taking his speed but his kinetic vectors. And if it has just a direction and no magnitude nothing would happen.

Accelerator is my favorite ACMI character but I don`t see how he will beat The Flash in any of the Rounds unless if he had prep or intel which he is actually good at.

@random_nerd: Kinetic vectors? Kinetic energy has no vectors. Vectors is defined as both direction and magnitude. Kinetic energy, while has Velocity which is a vector, but v^2 in KE is scalar because the dot product of two vectors is a scalar so v.v=v^2 is scalar and KE=1/2mv^2. Also, Flash manipulates Kinetic, which is anything to do with motion, so likewise speed. A direction with no magnitude is an angle, such as something that has nothing to measure via instantaneous or above relative speed, which Flash has. It can get hard to imagine. :)

@shadovvlite: .....r u trying to tell me that theres no such thing as kinetic vectors because if u r i seriously want u to go away and rethink ur life. Taking his kinetic energy is taking his ability to transfer the kinetic energy into kinetic vectors. But he doesnt have to use his own kinetic energy to do that, he can manipulate the kinetic energy of the wind or the molecules moving under his feat to move himself. And flash has never manipulated kinetics to degrees which u seem to be implying, hes not new son hes flash, his kinetic control is extremely limited to moving fast, and speed steal plus speed dump. Something can be above relative speed and still be measured. But i have a question. What is it your trying to say. Whats ur point here.

@random_nerd: Flash doesn't have to move in order to speed dump, and if he speed steals it takes Accelerators ability to move away(like you said). He can pretty much just dump Accelerator into the speed force like that and leave him there. Also, I don't know what you mean by "kinetic vector". I know that kinetics within itself means "forces acting on mechanisms", but "kinetic" and "vectors" are never put side by side like that. Kinetic energy is, but it is a Scalar though.

@random_nerd:

.....r u trying to tell me that theres no such thing as kinetic vectors because if u r i seriously want u to go away and rethink ur life.

Are you saying Kinetic vectors exist? If so, I need you to look at every textbook and every documented site online and every physics discussion and then tell me what's what, because I'm pretty sure, no, 100% sure Kinetic energy in no way is/was/are a vector, because if it were, it would be the fall of kinematics and mechanics as we know it. :)

Taking his kinetic energy is taking his ability to transfer the kinetic energy into kinetic vectors. But he doesnt have to use his own kinetic energy to do that, he can manipulate the kinetic energy of the wind or the molecules moving under his feat to move himself.

...What kind of ability is that? Does Flash emit Ems to transfer KE or something? No way, he controls it in a direct matter, and I emphasis direct so that I'm actually using the word "direct" described in the dictionary. So anything out of direct is then called "false".

And flash has never manipulated kinetics to degrees which u seem to be implying, hes not new son hes flash, his kinetic control is extremely limited to moving fast, and speed steal plus speed dump.

Limited too? That's all kinetic is. Motion. Flash can manipulate motion in all forms via speed up or take in anyway he likes. An example can be shown below, as Flash is able to defy Newtons 1st law and steal the speed from the bomb leaving it hanging in a timeless matter.

Something can be above relative speed and still be measured. But i have a question. What is it your trying to say. Whats ur point here.

Something that is defined to be immeasurable is now measurable... how does that work exactly? My point is that Flash's ability work on accelerator, that's it.

@random_nerd: "flash has never manipulated kinetics to degrees which u seem to be implying". I don't know what he is implying, however Wally West once absorbed the kinetic energy of the entire planet Earth while standing at the North Pole when his team-mates were forced to move the planet to prevent possible earthquakes. That seems like a pretty big kinetic feat if you ask me.

Wouldn't everyone that flash speed stole from die? Since their hearts would stop moving, brain would shut down, ect.........

@shadovvlite: haha maybe its just the way i word it ok :P im not saying kinetic energy is a vector dont mistake me, im saying motion using kinetics is a vector and my physics teacher just called them kinetic vectors :P kinetic energy is just a magnitude. And i think u misunderstood my second point i was refering to accelerator? And yes kinetics is entirely motion im not denying that. And yeah by measuring it as infinite u can account for it in calculations it makes them really complicated but there are a few equations i might be able to pull up if i remember the name of them.

What do u call them? Motion vectors?

@osiris_phantom: that kinetic feat isnt what i mean at all. Im not talking about size. Im talking about precision.

@random_nerd: Okey, now I understand a little. What I don't get is the "motion using Kinetics"? That's just Kinetic energy, but I think what you are talking about is momentum p = m * v, which then it would be a vector quality, but is something entirely different.

@random_nerd: How precise do you want it to be? Stealing kinetic energy from something big or something small? I don't get what you are saying. He can control what he steals kinetic energy from. He once stole kinetic energy from the Anti-Monitor. What is "precise" mean in this situation?

@random_nerd: Also, does SlightestReality's comment make sense to you? It made sense to me but I could be wrong.

@shadovvlite: what im talking about let me see if i can explain. (Osiris over here already knows me attempting to explain is likely to confuse u more) let me see.... speed the best example is just a magnitude but in reality utilizing speed requires a direction i cant just be going this fast but not displacing myself so anytime speed is utilized its a vector. So the kinetic energy being transfered into speed (im skipping ahead) is creating a vector. Nothing moves without being a vector in index even when things are teleported it is accounted for with dimensional vectors. So raw speed isnt actually a thing. I mean it is obviously, but at the same time it isnt if u can understand my logic thus far ill keep explaining if not ill try again i know this way isnt particularly sound way of trying to make my point but im extremely bad at explaining.

@osiris_phantom: no no haha. Im talking about not just stealing kinetic energy. Im talking about utilizing all forms and ways of kinetic energy its why i referenced new son i thought it would save me the explaination. And yes his comment made sense it is all sound physics.

@random_nerd: Haha, yes, I do know that your explanations are likely to confuse everyone more. So I guess that means that Flash is really likely to win the first 2 rounds then because he can use speed steal to either cause death by halting bodily function and cellular motion. And its a pretty solid way to win considering that Wally does not need to touch Accelerator and can do it from a safe distance as well as immobilizing Accelerator before doing it. And because he is blood-lusted he is more likely to do so.

@random_nerd: So what you are saying is that KE turns body to momentum thus making it vector? But KE it the fundamental property in which creates the output. Flash can manipulate it to his own desire and thus create a new output. It's not that Flash is forming a vector, but changes the basis of what it is. It's because his power is literally to change and defy the laws of physics. Do you follow? :/

Or how about this. I throw a rock and that itself turns to a vector quantity, but in order to create that vector I need to have the energy to make it or in this example "throw the rock". If I don't have the energy then there's nothing for me to form that vector.

@shadovvlite: i follow both examples and i was about to adress that. Accelerator also manipulates the amount of power his vectors have, he can make them infitely larger, accessing KE from seemingly nowhere. Once they reach the vector form he manipulates all properties of the vector, including the amount of power they have.

And he can take the base kinetic energu i needed from wind other sources. Wind molecules under his feat etc etc.

@random_nerd:

Make sure we are using the correct Accelerator, because I'm only debating for round 1 and 2. I don't know anything about the latest LN, so I can give Accelerator the win for R3 if I knew anything about him. On another note, how does his fully awaken form work against time manipulation?

@shadovvlite: his fully awaken form controls all vectors at all time. Meaning its achievable for him tto think abd move at flash level speeds in theory, as well as completely shut down flash, through the same means flash does to others, he could also use 11th dimensional to port, or simply evade. The amount of possibilities are so endless its not even worth explaining. Flash wont even be able to move think breathe anything. Once awakened enters the game its over.

@random_nerd: Yes, but don't forget the fully awaken Flash aka KC Flash :P

Oh, I'm thinking of a Accelerator vs Zoom or Juggernaut type thread. It seems interesting. Who do you think will win?

Highly theoretical. Give a showing of "awakened Accelerator" amping his thought processing speed to beyond ftl.

We're talking a bloodlusted Flash here. Unless you have a solid feat of it happening, you're just extrapolating off of his powerset things he has never or would never do. Kind of like saying Dr. Manhattan would beat Silver Surfer or Superman or Dr. Fate.

@shadovvlite: i dont even really get kc flash :P and accelerator vs juggernaut is an interesting question. Hes unstoppable but accelerator works on the principles of physics he can reflect anything. Juggernaut isnt indestructible either. Also accelerator can fly and shoot raw plasma. Thats good though wha would happen if he charged accelerator, accelerator in character wouldnt evade he never does. Zoom though im not sure at all. My gut says zoom wins, but my mind asks how. Zoom could just wait till accelerator dies of okd age but i wouldnt count that as a win. Ill have to get back to u.

@boringperson: hes never had a reason too. It is theoretical but if he controls all vectors it is 100% possible.

If he's never done it, then it doesn't matter.

Even if it's a part of his powerset, as long as it's not a passive part of his powerset, then the assumption is that it won't happen.

Comicvine rules. Kind of like saying Dr. Manhattan could instantly disassemble Superman's body killing him. Sure, it's within his powerset, but he's never encountered anyone with an inherent resistance to molecular manipulation like Superman. Ergo, it's not kosher to just assume he could obliterate Superman with a gesture.

@random_nerd: KC Flash has full control over the Speed Force, so basically omnipresent. I may say Accelerator beats Juggernaut, unless it's Cyttorak Juggernaut. Zoom would be interesting.

@boringperson: that reference is sort of different dont u think. Superman does have a resistance. But its not as if accelerator has a resistance to higher brain speeds.

@shadovvlite: yeah i read the miniseries. And i would think so but it sort of depends on why hes unstoppable. And zoom though i think it wouldnt be super different from this thread but a lot of cool points would come up

No, it's not.

Amping his own reaction/perceptual time enough to contend with Flash would be an active use of his powers, rather than a passive resistance to a certain type of attack.

Dr. Manhattan's active use of molecular manipulation against someone with passive resistance to as such when he has no feats of doing so it untenable. Dr. Manhattan should theoretically have the capability to do so, but we cannot assume he can.

In the same ways, while Accelerator certainly has the theoretical capability to actively amp his reaction/perceptual time in order to stand a chance against the Flash, as he has no feats of doing so. Thus, we cannot assume he could so so in this battle.

Worse, as Accelerator has no previous knowledge of his opponent even if he had a feat of being able to do so, he simply wouldn't do so in character as his general modus operandi is not to immediately do so at the start of each and every random encounter.

Worse still, Accelerator has never been on the receiving end of a massively FTL strike from anything, much less an object approaching infinite mass...

I don't recall any feats he has to show that he could survive even one shot.

@boringperson: regarding that last point u do realize that reflecting a vector doesnt matter the size speed power ornanything regarding the vector. If he can reflect a pebble using poweer like this u could conclude he could reflect ftl infinite mass. Ur making the sane mistake another did in assuming it has some sort of overload. But reflecting vectors doesnt work that way. And well thats one way too do battle threads. Another is with potential and theoretical power.

@boringperson: You're an integrated legume processing unit, southern hairy-nosed wombat, biscuit-bag, self-righteous gasbag, serpiginous intra-cranial vacuum, base hedge-creeping collectivist, white-bellied cuckoo shrike, and nincompoop!!!! Battling using Theory is a valid way to express your argument, and it is done everywhere on comic vine AND therefore does not make it against "comic vine rules" especially since the comic vine rules do not mention how to ARGUE in a battle! Also, with that logic one could easily say that since nobody in the real world has the same feats as either of those characters, means that we cannot use them in a battle because they don't exist! Which would be completely idiotic. So take that you babliaminy,unfeathered cremitoried quean, and cullisance of scabiosity!

Wassup with the bolded words? lol

But seriously, the not bolded part of your comment is really dumb... go read the battle forum rules.