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#1 Posted by SuperStarKirby (126 posts) - - Show Bio

Variation. If Human Torch was as powerful as he could be (able to reach Absolute Hot at will, without any downsides like the time limit), and Iceman (NOT. ULTIMATE. ICEMAN) explored his potential power (able to reach Absolute Cold, without any trouble), then who would win? I know that this hasn't happened before, but pretty much this: what would happen if a being with the ultimate control over heat and fire/reality were against a being with the ultimate control over cold and ice/states of water? How far would their powers go? 
 
Fight takes places on an isolated planet the size of a supergiant. Unlimited oxygen supply. Bloodlusted.

#2 Posted by Project_Worm (3471 posts) - - Show Bio
@SuperStarKirby:  
i dont know too much about ice man but i dont see how ice beats fire 
#3 Posted by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it would be a stalemate.

#4 Posted by Project_Worm (3471 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon:  
really can you tell my how
#5 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2680 posts) - - Show Bio

Absolute Heat = All Heat in Universe = All Energy in the Universe, he would be capable of killing the likes of Galactus with that much power. That being said, Absolute Cold = Death of the Universe = Death of Energy. As the universe will eventually die and Absolute Cold will be the killer, Iceman at Absolute Cold stomps here.

#6 Posted by SuperStarKirby (126 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, one thing to add - when Human Torch DID use Absolute Hot, it was to restore the dimensions, so he warped time AND space. That's why I put reality in my initial post - with that power, he can do so at will. Carry on.

#7 Posted by HellionVulcan (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Well iceman can't really die by heat or fire so he'd in time win .

#8 Posted by SuperStarKirby (126 posts) - - Show Bio

It isn't basic fire alone now. Besides, Iceman defends himself from fire, by moving the heat along gradients of his choice. Someone who controls fire/heat would be able to do the exact same thing with that heat, except moving it BACK so that it DOES hurt Iceman, no? After all, the heat control is exactly what HT does with his flame, and the reason why he can touch people while flamed on. So Iceman's normal defense against heat wouldn't work here...

#9 Posted by _Courage_ (1183 posts) - - Show Bio

This is all purely speculation so you really can't say one way or the other.
#10 Edited by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@Project_Worm said:

" @superdemon:  really can you tell my how "

Well they are on the opposite sides of the spectrum. I sort of see it like two of the same +- charged magnets repelling each other infinitely. They completely cancel each other out IMO.
#11 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2680 posts) - - Show Bio

No, this is not speculation, if Iceman is allowed to reach Absolute Zero, he wins. He can take on cosmic beings with power like that.

#12 Edited by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@DedmanWalkin said:

" No, this is not speculation, if Iceman is allowed to reach Absolute Zero, he wins. He can take on cosmic beings with power like that. "

Absolute hot is the absence of all cold and visa versa. It would actually depend on who's will is stronger I think or who could reach it faster. 
#13 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2680 posts) - - Show Bio

No, Absolute Hot is all the energy in the universe, Absolute Cold is zero energy. Absolute Hot always loses to Absolute Cold because the universe can die while Absolute Cold cannot.

#14 Edited by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio

If creation ceases to exists, cold and the concept thereof ceases to exist as well. Impossible theory

#15 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2680 posts) - - Show Bio

I said the universe not creation, creation still exists it just is frozen solid.

#16 Posted by EdwardWindsor (14428 posts) - - Show Bio

At absolute zero all molecules effectly stop existing sicne they can no longer move so absolute zero or cold is the winner here. maximum heat would just have molecules moing so fast things become unstable.

#17 Posted by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@DedmanWalkin said:
" I said the universe not creation, creation still exists it just is frozen solid. "
Not if there a presence of absolute hot. It's impossible. 
 
This is basically a classic case of irresistible force vs immovable object.
#18 Posted by Captain13 (3450 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman's powers work by slowing down molecules when he drains their energy. If Bobby masters his abilities, he would probably be able to drain torches energy and slow down in molecules. Iceman FTW.

#19 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio

It is hard to debate with hypothetical characters.  
 
But as of right now, Iceman cannot be killed. 

#20 Edited by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:

" It is hard to debate with hypothetical characters.   But as of right now, Iceman cannot be killed.  "

But if HT's will is stronger he could keep him subdued by maintaining absolute hot. There not much Bobby can do if he can not take physical form. But it goes both ways.
 
Will, or who can do it faster is what it boils down to IMO.
#21 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said:
" @erik said:
" It is hard to debate with hypothetical characters.   But as of right now, Iceman cannot be killed.  "
But if HT's will is stronger he could keep him subdued. There not much Bobby can do if he can not take physical form.  Will, or who can do it faster is what it boils down to IMO. "
That is not correct. Bobby still has full access to his powers even without a body as of right now.  
 
It ultimately comes down to which hypothetical character is more powerful. 
#22 Posted by PrinceIMC (5422 posts) - - Show Bio

I think since Iceman turns into ice while Human Torch just sheathes himself in fire I'd say Iceman wins.
#23 Posted by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" @superdemon said:
" @erik said:
" It is hard to debate with hypothetical characters.   But as of right now, Iceman cannot be killed.  "
But if HT's will is stronger he could keep him subdued. There not much Bobby can do if he can not take physical form.  Will, or who can do it faster is what it boils down to IMO. "
That is not correct. Bobby still has full access to his powers even without a body as of right now.   It ultimately comes down to which hypothetical character is more powerful.  "
What can he do with his powers if cold ceases to exist?
#24 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said: 
What can he do with his powers if cold ceases to exist? "
What can Torch do if the heat exchange process is stopped?
#25 Posted by Theworldbreaker (1642 posts) - - Show Bio

When the ice nad fire hits  
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------->BOOOOOOOMMM!!!<-------------------------------------------------------------------
#26 Posted by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" @superdemon said: 
What can he do with his powers if cold ceases to exist? "
What can Torch do if the heat exchange process is stopped? "
Exactly. So, IMO, this fight depends on who can reach their peak first, or who' will is strong enough to overpower the others.
#27 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon:  
 
Like I said, it is very hard to debate with hypothetical characters. 
#28 Posted by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" @superdemon:   Like I said, it is very hard to debate with hypothetical characters.  "
I know. Best thing to do is reason with logic.
#29 Posted by ThaMessenger07 (1779 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon:  Iceman doesn't control Cold he has Thrermokinesis. He absorbs the ambient heat from a room or a location. He has Reached this level before with the help of Human Torch he was able to achieve Absolute Zero but Torch only helped to speed the process up. Mind you that cold is only conception while heat is the reality. Torch may create massive amounts of thermal energy but Bobby would absorb it to the point that is can't be produced anymore. Also Johnny can eliminate his physical form but he can simply reform through Johnny and counter the effect. They are on 2 completely different level of characters.
#30 Posted by SuperStarKirby (126 posts) - - Show Bio

Not quite. Torch is a thermokinetic himself - he helped Iceman by absorbing heat. Theoretically, he should be able to freeze things via the same method - he just hasn't yet. Also, melting Iceman should be counted as a defeat. 
 
 Both can absorb heat... well, actually Bobby CAN'T absorb heat. Again, his only defense is by manipulating heat along specific gradients, so that he doesn't feel it. As Johnny is the thermokinetic, he would be able to get past that defense by manipulating the heat BACK on the path to Iceman. Johnny can both absorb and project heat, meaning this would totally end up as a stalemate.

#31 Posted by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@SuperStarKirby said:
" Not quite. Torch is a thermokinetic himself - he helped Iceman by absorbing heat. Theoretically, he should be able to freeze things via the same method - he just hasn't yet. Also, melting Iceman should be counted as a defeat.   Both can absorb heat... well, actually Bobby CAN'T absorb heat. Again, his only defense is by manipulating heat along specific gradients, so that he doesn't feel it. As Johnny is the thermokinetic, he would be able to get past that defense by manipulating the heat BACK on the path to Iceman. Johnny can both absorb and project heat, meaning this would totally end up as a stalemate. "
Which is why I say it depends on who can reach absolute cold/hot first. If it becomes a tug of war, the one with the greater will wins.
#32 Posted by ThaMessenger07 (1779 posts) - - Show Bio
@SuperStarKirby: @superdemon:  If Bobby is still alive after he melts him and is more then capable of still attacking how does that count as a win?
#33 Edited by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@ThaMessenger07 said:

" @SuperStarKirby: @superdemon:  If Bobby is still alive after he melts him and is more then capable of still attacking how does that count as a win? "

Due to the OP circumstances, if Johnny reached absolute hot, Bobby would still be conscious, but he would not be able to attack. In my opinion, anyway.
 
If Bobby reached absolute zero, Johnny would probably die.
#34 Posted by ThaMessenger07 (1779 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon:  Why would he not be able to Attack?
#35 Posted by Gremlin From Kremlin (2931 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman wins this easily.

#36 Edited by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@ThaMessenger07 said:

" @superdemon:  Why would he not be able to Attack? "

 Remember, absolute hot and absolute zero are theories. This is both characters at theorized temperatures.
 
Absolute hot is a concept of temperature that postulates the existence of a highest attainable temperature of matter. Iceman can not manipulate or create physical objects at  this level of temperature. Bobby is not a telepath. He would need to freeze or created solid matter to physically hurt Johnny.  If Johnny actually reach absolute hot Bobby would be forced to stay as a conscious thought.
 
Again, this is only if Johnny can over power Bobby and actually reach absolute hot. 
 
It's a tug of war in my opinion. Strongest, or the one with the greater will will win this fight.
#37 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate.
#38 Posted by crackerjack82 (2607 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman would reach Absolute Zero, at AZ nothing moves at all, so AHT would not be able to draw his power from any source, nor would he, himself be able to live or move at all on the molecular level

#39 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said:
" @ThaMessenger07 said:

" @superdemon:  Why would he not be able to Attack? "

Absolute hot is a concept of temperature that postulates the existence of a highest attainable temperature of matter. Iceman can not manipulate or create physical objects at  this level of temperature. Bobby is not a telepath. He would need to freeze or created solid matter to physically hurt Johnny.  Bobby would be forced to stay as a conscious thought.  Again, this is only if Johnny can over power Bobby and actually reach absolute hot.   It's a tug of war. Strongest, or the one with the greater will will win this fight. "
Unless Iceman just stops the heat exchange process from even happening at all, thereby effectively negating the absolute hot scenario. Even if Torch gets there before Boddy takes action against him, Bobby still has control over the heat exchange process.  
#40 Edited by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:

" @superdemon said:

" @ThaMessenger07 said:

" @superdemon:  Why would he not be able to Attack? "

Absolute hot is a concept of temperature that postulates the existence of a highest attainable temperature of matter. Iceman can not manipulate or create physical objects at  this level of temperature. Bobby is not a telepath. He would need to freeze or created solid matter to physically hurt Johnny.  Bobby would be forced to stay as a conscious thought.  Again, this is only if Johnny can over power Bobby and actually reach absolute hot.   It's a tug of war. Strongest, or the one with the greater will will win this fight. "
Unless Iceman just stops the heat exchange process from even happening at all, thereby effectively negating the absolute hot scenario. Even if Torch gets there before Boddy takes action against him, Bobby still has control over the heat exchange process.   "
He does, but his control over the heat exchange process is not greater than Johnny's. 
 
It can go either way, dude. I say it depends on who has the greater will or strength to get to absolute hot/zero first.
#41 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@crackerjack82 said:
"Iceman would reach Absolute Zero, at AZ nothing moves at all, so AHT would not be able to draw his power from any source, nor would he, himself be able to live or move at all on the molecular level "

Yes but Absolute hot is practically limitless. There are beings who can easliy endure Absolute 0. I say stalemate.
#42 Posted by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@Susanoo said:
" @crackerjack82 said:
"Iceman would reach Absolute Zero, at AZ nothing moves at all, so AHT would not be able to draw his power from any source, nor would he, himself be able to live or move at all on the molecular level "
Yes but Absolute hot is practically limitless. There are beings who can easliy endure Absolute 0. I say stalemate. "
I agree.
#43 Posted by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said:
" @ThaMessenger07 said:

" @superdemon:  Why would he not be able to Attack? "

 Remember, absolute hot and absolute zero are theories. This is both characters at theorized temperatures. Absolute hot is a concept of temperature that postulates the existence of a highest attainable temperature of matter. Iceman can not manipulate or create physical objects at  this level of temperature. Bobby is not a telepath. He would need to freeze or created solid matter to physically hurt Johnny.  If Johnny actually reach absolute hot Bobby would be forced to stay as a conscious thought.  Again, this is only if Johnny can over power Bobby and actually reach absolute hot.   It's a tug of war in my opinion. Strongest, or the one with the greater will will win this fight. "
#44 Posted by crackerjack82 (2607 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon:
" @Susanoo said:
" @crackerjack82 said:
"Iceman would reach Absolute Zero, at AZ nothing moves at all, so AHT would not be able to draw his power from any source, nor would he, himself be able to live or move at all on the molecular level "
Yes but Absolute hot is practically limitless. There are beings who can easliy endure Absolute 0. I say stalemate. "
I agree. "
 
The theory of Absolute Zero, is not the one comics use, nothing moves at AZ, meaning nothing exists. As to exists there must me movement.  Again this Comics using a device in writing, and distorting it for the means of the story. true AZ or the theory of true AZ is the death of movement, AH in theory is the polar opposite, and could not exists while AZ is about 
#45 Posted by karrob (4281 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman because in theory he can always stop the heat exchange even without a physical form.

#46 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio
@superdemon said:
" @erik said:

" @superdemon said:

" @ThaMessenger07 said:

" @superdemon:  Why would he not be able to Attack? "

Absolute hot is a concept of temperature that postulates the existence of a highest attainable temperature of matter. Iceman can not manipulate or create physical objects at  this level of temperature. Bobby is not a telepath. He would need to freeze or created solid matter to physically hurt Johnny.  Bobby would be forced to stay as a conscious thought.  Again, this is only if Johnny can over power Bobby and actually reach absolute hot.   It's a tug of war. Strongest, or the one with the greater will will win this fight. "
Unless Iceman just stops the heat exchange process from even happening at all, thereby effectively negating the absolute hot scenario. Even if Torch gets there before Boddy takes action against him, Bobby still has control over the heat exchange process.   "
He does, but his control over the heat exchange process is not greater than Johnny's.   It can go either way, dude. I say it depends on who has the greater will or strength to get to absolute hot/zero first. "
We do not know which has the better control. Iceman is a mutant with unlimited potential in his power set. Torch is not. So logically, Iceman would have the better control if they were at their very best.  
 
Iceman as of right now, is able to prevent the heat exchange process from happening. Whatever variable he has control over in that formula has not been explained yet. He does however have that ability right now. 
#47 Posted by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@crackerjack82 said:
" @superdemon:
" @Susanoo said:
" @crackerjack82 said:
"Iceman would reach Absolute Zero, at AZ nothing moves at all, so AHT would not be able to draw his power from any source, nor would he, himself be able to live or move at all on the molecular level "
Yes but Absolute hot is practically limitless. There are beings who can easliy endure Absolute 0. I say stalemate. "
I agree. "
 The theory of Absolute Zero, is not the one comics use, nothing moves at AZ, meaning nothing exists. As to exists there must me movement.  Again this Comics using a device in writing, and distorting it for the means of the story. true AZ or the theory of true AZ is the death of movement, AH in theory is the polar opposite, and could not exists while AZ is about  "
And visa versa. 
 
It goes both ways.  
 
@karrob said:
" Iceman because in theory he can always stop the heat exchange even without a physical form. "
Iceman's control of heat is not superior to HT's.
#48 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio
@crackerjack82 said:
" @superdemon:
" @Susanoo said:
" @crackerjack82 said:
"Iceman would reach Absolute Zero, at AZ nothing moves at all, so AHT would not be able to draw his power from any source, nor would he, himself be able to live or move at all on the molecular level "
Yes but Absolute hot is practically limitless. There are beings who can easliy endure Absolute 0. I say stalemate. "
I agree. "
 The theory of Absolute Zero, is not the one comics use, nothing moves at AZ, meaning nothing exists. As to exists there must me movement.  Again this Comics using a device in writing, and distorting it for the means of the story. true AZ or the theory of true AZ is the death of movement, AH in theory is the polar opposite, and could not exists while AZ is about  "
You do know it works the other way, as well, right? Absolute zero cannot exist if there's a source of heat because absolute zero and cold itself is an absence of heat. 
 
Neither absolute cold nor absolute hot can exist in the same space.
#49 Posted by superdemon (2342 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy said:
" @crackerjack82 said:
" @superdemon:
" @Susanoo said:
" @crackerjack82 said:
"Iceman would reach Absolute Zero, at AZ nothing moves at all, so AHT would not be able to draw his power from any source, nor would he, himself be able to live or move at all on the molecular level "
Yes but Absolute hot is practically limitless. There are beings who can easliy endure Absolute 0. I say stalemate. "
I agree. "
 The theory of Absolute Zero, is not the one comics use, nothing moves at AZ, meaning nothing exists. As to exists there must me movement.  Again this Comics using a device in writing, and distorting it for the means of the story. true AZ or the theory of true AZ is the death of movement, AH in theory is the polar opposite, and could not exists while AZ is about  "
You do know it works the other way, as well, right? Absolute zero cannot exist if there's a source of heat because absolute zero and cold itself is an absence of heat.  Neither absolute cold nor absolute hot can exist in the same space. "
Exactly.
#50 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@crackerjack82 said:
" @superdemon:
" @Susanoo said:
" @crackerjack82 said:
"Iceman would reach Absolute Zero, at AZ nothing moves at all, so AHT would not be able to draw his power from any source, nor would he, himself be able to live or move at all on the molecular level "
Yes but Absolute hot is practically limitless. There are beings who can easliy endure Absolute 0. I say stalemate. "
I agree. "
 The theory of Absolute Zero, is not the one comics use, nothing moves at AZ, meaning nothing exists. As to exists there must me movement.  Again this Comics using a device in writing, and distorting it for the means of the story. true AZ or the theory of true AZ is the death of movement, AH in theory is the polar opposite, and could not exists while AZ is about  "

Are you seriously gonna try and challenge my knowledge in science? Like iLLuturacy said, it works the other way as well. Absolute zero cannot exist if there's a source of heat because absolute zero and cold itself is an absence of heat. 
 
Neither absolute cold nor absolute hot can exist in the same space.