Abraxas vs. COIE Anti-Monitor

Anti-Monitor should be able to win this.

AM

@logy5000 said:

Anti-Monitor should be able to win this.

Come on man, i know you are a big fan of Anti Monitor, and you finally have a thread where you can say Anti Monitor stomps, why shy away from it. Go all out man :p

COIE Anti Monitor spanks Abraxas so hard , Galactus and Eternity get a sore bum :p

Anti-Monitor wins handily.

anti-monitor stomps

@Killemall: Lol. You're right.

Anti-Monitor stomps.

Abraxas is one of those characters(like BN Nekron) whom you're supposed to believe is powerful.But still even Abraxas' description,potential scope of powers fall short of COIE Anti-monitor.

COIE AM. Abraxas needs feats to be putted on this level.

I don't really know that much about Abraxes but I know everything about The Anti-Monitor.

@entropy_aegis said:

Abraxas is one of those characters(like BN Nekron) whom you're supposed to believe is powerful.But still even Abraxas' description,potential scope of powers fall short of COIE Anti-monitor.

Nekron did alright for himself he had practically won, the Black Lantern's alone would have easily wiped out the universe as they numbered in the Trillion's. He made the classic villain mistake of trying to win slightly faster and summoned the entity that beat him.

anti monitor

@Dextersinister said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Abraxas is one of those characters(like BN Nekron) whom you're supposed to believe is powerful.But still even Abraxas' description,potential scope of powers fall short of COIE Anti-monitor.

Nekron did alright for himself he had practically won, the Black Lantern's alone would have easily wiped out the universe as they numbered in the Trillion's. He made the classic villain mistake of trying to win slightly faster and summoned the entity that beat him.

I think the comparision fits, Abraxas did ok himself too, his mere existence folded 2 universes into itself, he also killed a bunch of alternate reality Galactus, and wiped out every Reed Richard from the marvel multiverse (barring 616 because he wanted to make him watch) and that very mistake cost him dearly as Reed with UN nullified him alongside the multiverse (bios later produce address it as universe though).

Nekron himself didnt do much, what Black Lantern did was their feat as opposed to Nekron, and neither really shown a true extent of his powers.

Abraxas isn't made out of Matter.

I think the comparision fits, Abraxas did ok himself too, his mere existence folded 2 universes into itself, he also killed a bunch of alternate reality Galactus, and wiped out every Reed Richard from the marvel multiverse (barring 616 because he wanted to make him watch) and that very mistake cost him dearly as Reed with UN nullified him alongside the multiverse (bios later produce address it as universe though).

Nekron himself didnt do much, what Black Lantern did was their feat as opposed to Nekron, and neither really shown a true extent of his powers.

@highaccuser said:

Wasn't abraxas' mere freedom crushing reality to bits? The fact that he is an abstract speaks volumes, the fact that he is the most powerful one, stronger than eternity and the cornerstones should indicate he stomps. It only takes mid-level abstracts to leave someone with only AM's feats(which admitably are higher than abraxas) in the dust. Abraxas isnt backed up by feats but he is an abstract. That is all i need to know(though i do know most everything about him).

Well he is, after all he was sort of like Eternity's anti-thesis, and 2 universes did fold into itself and collapsed. Thats what Abraxas was doing, by his mere presence getting universes to fold onto itself and collapse, thats what he was created to do.

Which is good, but feats from COIE AM are much more impressive, like fighting an amped up Spectre and actually beating him is a pretty high end feat, and given back then Jim Corrigan Spectre was indeed a pretty damn basa$$ i think that speaks volumes about his powers.

Lastly we go by feats, to fill in the gap. What we know is he is an abstract, his purpose is destruction of all realities (much like Oblivion, he however is more active than Oblivion) but his on panel feat is killing a bunch of Galactus, various Reeds from across the mutiverses, causing the collapse of 2 reality merely by his presence (yet 616 from whatever reason doesnt fold onto itself) and getting pwned by the God in marvel universe (aka Reed Richards :p).

I say display of powers and definition still falls short of AM wouldnt you think, specially if we consider this is AM during Dawn of Time, where he was at full power.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Abraxas isn't made out of Matter.

Neither is Mephisto, or Nightmare. For whatever reason Marvel have them beaten , even physically, so i suppose unless there is something to suggest physically attack wont work on him, i suppose its fair to assume it would.

Btw is Shuma Gorath made of matter, he seems to be hurt physically as well, and Abraxas was nullified by Ultimate Nullifier, not sure if that counts.

@highaccuser: Firstly yes i totally didnt get your point the first time around :p sorry. Now i understand.

So Spectre vs Anti Monitor, the soul part was never mentioned, he just overpowered Spectre and destroyed the universe around him

Secondly, while you make good points i dont think i agree. I would normally put Spectre, at least the Jim Corrigan version, pretty close to Abstract level being (while ignoring the whole Chaos War and its retcon, as that totally contradicts a well established hierarchy in Marvel multiverse).

Then we are talking about a being who has just absorbed infinite universes on his own, and had the power of all those universes. Even if we given Abraxas the power of an abstract, i dont think that sufficient to suggest he would win against COIE Anti Monitor.

@Killemall said:

@highaccuser: Firstly yes i totally didnt get your point the first time around :p sorry. Now i understand.

So Spectre vs Anti Monitor, the soul part was never mentioned, he just overpowered Spectre and destroyed the universe around him

Secondly, while you make good points i dont think i agree. I would normally put Spectre, at least the Jim Corrigan version, pretty close to Abstract level being (while ignoring the whole Chaos War and its retcon, as that totally contradicts a well established hierarchy in Marvel multiverse).

Then we are talking about a being who has just absorbed infinite universes on his own, and had the power of all those universes. Even if we given Abraxas the power of an abstract, i dont think that sufficient to suggest he would win against COIE Anti Monitor.

I disagree about Spectre being overpowered by COIE AM, there was no statement how angry the presence is

Spectre's powers depends on the wrath of the presence right?

@highaccuser: Firstly yes i totally didnt get your point the first time around :p sorry. Now i understand.

So Spectre vs Anti Monitor, the soul part was never mentioned, he just overpowered Spectre and destroyed the universe around him

Secondly, while you make good points i dont think i agree. I would normally put Spectre, at least the Jim Corrigan version, pretty close to Abstract level being (while ignoring the whole Chaos War and its retcon, as that totally contradicts a well established hierarchy in Marvel multiverse).

Then we are talking about a being who has just absorbed infinite universes on his own, and had the power of all those universes. Even if we given Abraxas the power of an abstract, i dont think that sufficient to suggest he would win against COIE Anti Monitor. 

@matmatxm8 said:

I disagree about Spectre being overpowered by COIE AM, there was no statement how angry the presence is

I am interpreting this scan as showing Spectre was overpowered.

Spectre's powers depends on the wrath of the presence right?

No, it doesnt. Spectre's power his Spectre's own, he can however draw into some portion of Presence power through something called Logoz. Logoz was first mentioned during Spectre vol 4, that would be about 20 years after this instance.

Spectre is the physical manifest of Presence wrath, at the point on his creation. Spectre power doesnt increase or decrease with how angry , or calm Presence gets.

Anti-Monitor ftw

@highaccuser said:

Just because the soul part was never mentioned and because the writers never intended to use it dosent mean it dosent exist.

Lack of Soul generally prevents Spectre from hurting someone, like what happened against Nekron, it however wont attack to an opponent overloading Spectre and having a universe blow on his face.

And thats an amped up spectre.

Okay didnt know he had absorbed the destroyed universes but it seems reasonable enough. Thing is chaos king also absorbed destroyed universes. In hellstorm's words "Everything he destroys becomes a part of him!" and the writers seemed to want him below eternity. Destroyed universal energy counts for something, but dosent make you trans-abstact, at least not trans eternity, much less abraxas. I normally think spectre is far above abstracts, and even above infinites and the overmonitor.

There actually was no mention of Chaos King being below eternity.

Also given the fact that the intention was to make an event bigger than Infinity Gauntlet

Then they even assigned him an origin that pre-dates the big bang, that created Galactus's universe (Reality 92131) let alone reality 616 which was created after 92131 was destroyed and the big bang occured that created all the abstracts.

While being Old doesnt make you more powerful, what i am trying to say is that , at least to me, it seemed like Chaos King was meant to be more powerful than Abstracts.

The reason i generally disregard this is because of the retcon that came later, Thor Annual 01, where Chaos King was stated to be a mere aspect of Oblivion, which is weird.

@Killemall:

Thanks for the info killemall,

now go! and kill some people! LOL

@matmatxm8 said:

@Killemall:

Thanks for the info killemall,

now go! and kill some people! LOL

Thanks.

And not now man i follow a strict schedue which mostly comprise as wake up, breakfast, murder, murder, murder, afternoon tea, comicvine, shower, murder , murder, murder, dinner , comicvine, one last murder , and good night sleep :)

Anti-Monitor would chew him to death with his near perfect teeth.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Abraxas isn't made out of Matter.

Neither is Mephisto, or Nightmare. For whatever reason Marvel have them beaten , even physically, so i suppose unless there is something to suggest physically attack wont work on him, i suppose its fair to assume it would.

Btw is Shuma Gorath made of matter, he seems to be hurt physically as well, and Abraxas was nullified by Ultimate Nullifier, not sure if that counts.

Ah, here is it: 

Mephisto is more of a schemer. He has all this power but mainly does not use it unless he can trick people in to giving him their souls. Therefore it's like the wish master movie, where he has unlimited powers but cant use them without people making wishes. Same with Mephisto, he uses tricks and dark promises for them to give him their souls willingly. So it could be possible that he could trick Surter to make a "deal with the devil" and then be able to control him due to him gaining his soul.

As for Shuma-Gorath.... 

COIE Anti-Moniter.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: I dont think i agree at all. Mephisto was blown into peices by Franklin Richard and the next time Mephisto saw franklin richard he was shaking in fear. Mephisto himself admitted Thanos with IG could have killed him anytime, even went on to say he was created by the infinity being who killed many being like Mephisto but he was lucky to escape.

I think thats just fan interpretation of trying to escape Mephisto's losses.

Also thanks for the other information :)

@Killemall said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: I dont think i agree at all. Mephisto was blown into peices by Franklin Richard and the next time Mephisto saw franklin richard he was shaking in fear. Mephisto himself admitted Thanos with IG could have killed him anytime, even went on to say he was created by the infinity being who killed many being like Mephisto but he was lucky to escape.

I think thats just fan interpretation of trying to escape Mephisto's losses.

Also thanks for the other information :)

Actually Im not a huge fan of him but from what I see he can use anyone who has a soul. Wish master could be defeated also but if you make a wish then you are his. Same goes with Mephisto. Did Franklin Richards give in to him and give him his soul? No! If he did then he would be able to control it since that is what he is good at doing.

@darklord_apoc said:

Actually Im not a huge fan of him but from what I see he can use anyone who has a soul. Wish master could be defeated also but if you make a wish then you are his. Same goes with Mephisto. Did Franklin Richards give in to him and give him his soul? No! If he did then he would be able to control it since that is what he is good at doing.

I think we are talking about two different things. My conversation with 7am started with him claiming Abraxas isnt made of matter, and insuniating that it would somehow prevent him for being harmed by Anti-monitor, where what i am saying is there are being that are not made up of matters, like Mephisto (a bonfied extra-dimensional being) who has been harmed just fine. Like Franklin Richard blowing him into tiny peices.

@Killemall said:

@darklord_apoc said:

Actually Im not a huge fan of him but from what I see he can use anyone who has a soul. Wish master could be defeated also but if you make a wish then you are his. Same goes with Mephisto. Did Franklin Richards give in to him and give him his soul? No! If he did then he would be able to control it since that is what he is good at doing.

I think we are talking about two different things. My conversation with 7am started with him claiming Abraxas isnt made of matter, and insuniating that it would somehow prevent him for being harmed by Anti-monitor, where what i am saying is there are being that are not made up of matters, like Mephisto (a bonfied extra-dimensional being) who has been harmed just fine. Like Franklin Richard blowing him into tiny peices.

But isnt F.R on awhole other level? Hes a reality warper (dont know if I spelled it right lol) but he is able to affect things that are and are not matter. Mephisto is somewhat like a ghost but he can be hurt. Now I really dont know much on Abraxas or what he is made out of. Btw Mephisto can be harmed but not killed unless it's with PIS or with something like the I.G. I doubt he would even be killed then.... He would probably be banished somewhere but not killed.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: I dont think i agree at all. Mephisto was blown into peices by Franklin Richard and the next time Mephisto saw franklin richard he was shaking in fear. Mephisto himself admitted Thanos with IG could have killed him anytime, even went on to say he was created by the infinity being who killed many being like Mephisto but he was lucky to escape.

I think thats just fan interpretation of trying to escape Mephisto's losses.

Also thanks for the other information :)

Does it mean he really blew up? 

"" As antithesis to the cosmic entity Eternity , Abraxas is a powerful intelligence representing the embodiment of the destruction of the multiverse, and as such is far removed from the limits of human understanding. Presumably, Abraxas' humanoid form is a manifestation used to communicate, or is merely the perception of the individual witnessing his presence. His powers are limitless, and he can manipulate the fabric of reality to accomplish his ends.""

@darklord_apoc said:

But isnt F.R on awhole other level? Hes a reality warper (dont know if I spelled it right lol) but he is able to affect things that are and are not matter. Mephisto is somewhat like a ghost but he can be hurt. Now I really dont know much on Abraxas or what he is made out of. Btw Mephisto can be harmed but not killed unless it's with PIS or with something like the I.G. I doubt he would even be killed then.... He would probably be banished somewhere but not killed.

Well firstly Franklin while powerful has been confirmed to being on par with Celestial, one on one. They have met more than once, arcs i can recall would be Forever, and Heroes Reborn, so that by extension keep Franklin a lot less powerful than any bonafied abstract let alone Abraxas, who is the anti-thesis of the most powerful abstract within the universe.

Secondly Mephisto can die, its pretty clearly stated on panel and backed by bio, just not by being he has faced. Infinty Gauntlet story arc would go far to show Mephisto and various others like him being created by Infinity Being (the same person whose power is IG) and he in fact killed a few other being exactly similar to Mephisto, but Mephisto was lucky enough to escape. But at the end of the day that means little, Infinity being was meant to be God, the creator of everything within the multiverse (hence the creation of Mephisto, a being who is extra dimensional in nature was shown on panel) before Hickman stepped in and said, IG heck "imma r@pe ya" and made it a universal and made it explode while punshing a universe when an incomplete IG did exactly that with no problem.

How can you KILL Evil???????????? 

The closest thing to come about killing him, is to make all sentient beings (physical and spiritual) GOOD and not think or do Evil deeds.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Just because you SEE him blow up....

Does it mean he really blew up?

This is one of the hardest things to get across Comicvine. A good 90% of people here only see feats on a physical level. Yet, only a handfull of people on this sight can see that Spiritual Level >>>> Physical. Anything that is beyond physical doesn't take mean it is restricted to said physicalness.

Q is good example: People use Sisco punching Q in the face as a reason that Q can take physical damage.... Yet, they do not question, if he is acting or really hurting?
But is Q a physical Being? No he isn't. He's a consiousness of a continuum.

Abraxas isn't made up of matter.
He is made up of some kind of chaos energy.

Per Bio:

"" As antithesis to the cosmic entityEternity, Abraxas is a powerful intelligence representing the embodiment of the destruction of the multiverse, and as such is far removed from the limits of human understanding. Presumably,Abraxas' humanoid form is a manifestation used to communicate, or is merely the perception of the individual witnessing his presence. His powers are limitless, and he can manipulate the fabric of reality to accomplish his ends.""

Do you have any proof to back this up, coz he did blow up into peices? I mean come on you can try and ram a theory inside someone neck but where is the feat?

abraxas is a reality warper, AM a matter manipulator... reality >>>> matter cause it affects other aspects like time and souls

@Killemall said:

@darklord_apoc said:

But isnt F.R on awhole other level? Hes a reality warper (dont know if I spelled it right lol) but he is able to affect things that are and are not matter. Mephisto is somewhat like a ghost but he can be hurt. Now I really dont know much on Abraxas or what he is made out of. Btw Mephisto can be harmed but not killed unless it's with PIS or with something like the I.G. I doubt he would even be killed then.... He would probably be banished somewhere but not killed.

Well firstly Franklin while powerful has been confirmed to being on par with Celestial, one on one. They have met more than once, arcs i can recall would be Forever, and Heroes Reborn, so that by extension keep Franklin a lot less powerful than any bonafied abstract let alone Abraxas, who is the anti-thesis of the most powerful abstract within the universe.

Secondly Mephisto can die, its pretty clearly stated on panel and backed by bio, just not by being he has faced. Infinty Gauntlet story arc would go far to show Mephisto and various others like him being created by Infinity Being (the same person whose power is IG) and he in fact killed a few other being exactly similar to Mephisto, but Mephisto was lucky enough to escape. But at the end of the day that means little, Infinity being was meant to be God, the creator of everything within the multiverse (hence the creation of Mephisto, a being who is extra dimensional in nature was shown on panel) before Hickman stepped in and said, IG heck "imma r@pe ya" and made it a universal and made it explode while punshing a universe when an incomplete IG did exactly that with no problem.

Isnt Mephisto like satan, but in Marvel? You said he killed a few beings like Mephisto, but how powerful were they? Just like demons are similar to satan those other beings maybe similar to Mephisto but may not be as strong but more like demons? Now cosmic beings like L.T or TOAA could destroy him where he could never come back since they were the ones who are top notch in Marvel. So question is if Mephisto is like satan in our reality? Even satan had a starting point but it does not mean anyone can kill him. Only GOD or JESUS should have that power to, just like TOAA, or LT should have the power to kill Mephisto. It depends on how powerful he is compared to these other beings you stated?

@highaccuser said:

Just because the soul part was never mentioned and because the writers never intended to use it dosent mean it dosent exist.

Lack of Soul generally prevents Spectre from hurting someone, like what happened against Nekron, it however wont attack to an opponent overloading Spectre and having a universe blow on his face.And thats an amped up spectre.

There actually was no mention of Chaos King being below eternity.

Also given the fact that the intention was to make an event bigger than Infinity Gauntlet 

While being Old doesnt make you more powerful, what i am trying to say is that , at least to me, it seemed like Chaos King was meant to be more powerful than Abstracts. 

The reason i generally disregard this is because of the retcon that came later, Thor Annual 01, where Chaos King was stated to be a mere aspect of Oblivion, which is weird. 

@Killemall said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Just because you SEE him blow up....

Does it mean he really blew up?

This is one of the hardest things to get across Comicvine. A good 90% of people here only see feats on a physical level. Yet, only a handfull of people on this sight can see that Spiritual Level >>>> Physical. Anything that is beyond physical doesn't take mean it is restricted to said physicalness.

Q is good example: People use Sisco punching Q in the face as a reason that Q can take physical damage.... Yet, they do not question, if he is acting or really hurting?
But is Q a physical Being? No he isn't. He's a consiousness of a continuum.

Abraxas isn't made up of matter.
He is made up of some kind of chaos energy.

Per Bio:

"" As antithesis to the cosmic entity Eternity , Abraxas is a powerful intelligence representing the embodiment of the destruction of the multiverse, and as such is far removed from the limits of human understanding. Presumably, Abraxas' humanoid form is a manifestation used to communicate, or is merely the perception of the individual witnessing his presence. His powers are limitless, and he can manipulate the fabric of reality to accomplish his ends.""

Do you have any proof to back this up, coz he did blow up into peices? I mean come on you can try and ram a theory inside someone neck but where is the feat?

• If you seemingly see with your eye, the Genie of the Lamp blow up.... Does that mean he died?
• If Q transforms into a Sun going Super Nova, does that mean Q exploded and died?

The same applies to Abraxas:

Abraxas' humanoid form is a manifestation used to communicate, or is merely the perception of the individual witnessing his presence.

@Killemall said:

@Dextersinister said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Abraxas is one of those characters(like BN Nekron) whom you're supposed to believe is powerful.But still even Abraxas' description,potential scope of powers fall short of COIE Anti-monitor.

Nekron did alright for himself he had practically won, the Black Lantern's alone would have easily wiped out the universe as they numbered in the Trillion's. He made the classic villain mistake of trying to win slightly faster and summoned the entity that beat him.

I think the comparision fits, Abraxas did ok himself too, his mere existence folded 2 universes into itself, he also killed a bunch of alternate reality Galactus, and wiped out every Reed Richard from the marvel multiverse (barring 616 because he wanted to make him watch) and that very mistake cost him dearly as Reed with UN nullified him alongside the multiverse (bios later produce address it as universe though).

Nekron himself didnt do much, what Black Lantern did was their feat as opposed to Nekron, and neither really shown a true extent of his powers.

The ability to actually fuel those Lantern's came from Nekron, Corp's number's are limited by how strong there central power battery is, Nekron is empowered by every death so every victim who became a Lantern is there own power source through him which was why there numbers where limitless, you could say all that power came from the AM but while he was dead his powers where Nekron's. The empowerment from the death of all things would have allowed him to reshape all of creation.

@Dextersinister said:

The ability to actually fuel those Lantern's came from Nekron, Corp's number's are limited by how strong there central power battery is, Nekron is empowered by every death so every victim who became a Lantern is there own power source through him which was why there numbers where limitless, you could say all that power came from the AM but while he was dead his powers where Nekron's. The empowerment from the death of all things would have allowed him to reshape all of creation.

I think you misunderstand what i am trying to say. The comparison wasnt to show Nekron = Abraxas in terms of power level, but rather the comparison between two character fits. Abraxas was Eternity's anti-thesis, and by far the most powerful abstract on marvel universe, and while he did perform few feats he has done nothing to show how powerful he could truely be, apart from theories The same is true for Nekron. He was meant to be pretty damn powerful, but feat wise he has little. Sure we could use theories to put a huge claim in his power level (the same way we could use multiversal power shown by various abstracts to relate it to Abraxas) but on panel feat both of them are lacking.

@Killemall: You misunderstood what I was saying, I wasn't comparing Abraxa's and Nekron just pointing out that the ring's where an extension of his power. It's not a feat to show that he could turn a blue shirt pink but it does show he had the ability to make an infinite amount of super zombie's.

I think you misunderstand what i am trying to say. The comparison wasnt to show Nekron = Abraxas in terms of power level, but rather the comparison between two character fits. Abraxas was Eternity's anti-thesis, and by far the most powerful abstract on marvel universe, and while he did perform few feats he has done nothing to show how powerful he could truely be, apart from theories The same is true for Nekron. He was meant to be pretty damn powerful, but feat wise he has little. Sure we could use theories to put a huge claim in his power level (the same way we could use multiversal power shown by various abstracts to relate it to Abraxas) but on panel feat both of them are lacking.