616 Captain America vs Ultimate Captain America (No Shields)

• H2H
• No Shields
• Death or KO

Ult Cap ftw. He's pretty ruthless from what I remember when reading The Ultimates

Ultimate Cap slaugthers him

ultimate cap is way better physical stats than normal cap so he wins

Main stream Cap for the win. He is a bad ass but in a good way.....

The next step in human evolution that is what 616 Cap is. He has hand to hand skills that Ult Cap probably isn't aware of.

@CadenceV2: Did you make this because of @krauser99: ?

Ultimate Captain America wins. Too much durability and much more better recovery rate.

Gun bullets heal in hours

Knife wounds heal in minutes

What does that leave bruises from punches? In seconds?

Skill wise they are about equal. I've seen Ultimate Cap do some very good throat strikes, groan strikes and he has done ground moves from judo/jiu jitsu but in the air.

Ultimate Cap will not have a problem using less-than-honorable tactics to win his fight. 616 Cap wouldn’t, and that would give Ultimate Cap the edge.

Ultimate Cap FTW!!! 8-9/10

Ultimate Cap ftw

@SlimJ87D said:

@CadenceV2: Did you make this because of @krauser99: ?

Ultimate Captain America wins. Too much durability and much more better recovery rate.

Gun bullets heal in hours

Knife wounds heal in minutes

What does that leave bruises from punches? In seconds?

Skill wise they are about equal. I've seen Ultimate Cap do some very good throat strikes, groan strikes and he has done ground moves from judo/jiu jitsu but in the air.

Actually no. It was the 616 Cap / Ult. HE vs Ult. Cap / 616 HE that made me see what Viners say.

It seems alot of people in that Thread believe 616 Cap is a stalemate for Ult. Cap and Ult. HE beats 616 HE meaning Team 1 wins. This baffled me.

Now it seems people have a different tune. Eh.

@SlimJ87D said:

@CadenceV2: Did you make this because of @krauser99: ?

Ultimate Captain America wins. Too much durability and much more better recovery rate.

Gun bullets heal in hours

Knife wounds heal in minutes

What does that leave bruises from punches? In seconds?

Skill wise they are about equal. I've seen Ultimate Cap do some very good throat strikes, groan strikes and he has done ground moves from judo/jiu jitsu but in the air.

Good post. Has Ult Cap ever done advanced pressure points out of curiosity?

MS Cap has pressure pointed a superhuman warewolf into unconsciousness, vulcan pinch necked regulars to unconsciousness.

He also pressure point Giant Man's forehead and made his arms numb to even pressure point Spiderman while in his new Tony's Iron Spider armour and numbed him from the waist down. He has also shown some chi training, to master an alien form of martial art that took other warriors "decades" to master.

The slight skill edge 616 Cap may have is overturned by the significantly improved physicals of Ult Cap.

@krauser99: Hmmmm, there is an instance referenced in his wikia that says he knocks people out by tapping them. I looked the issue up and couldn't find him do it anywhere in the issue so the source might be off.

I don't think so though. I've only seen him kick and dislocate joints, knees, etc. But I have seen 616 do some pressure points.

Cool man. I've mentioned some of the pressure points that main stream Cap has done as well.

@SlimJ87D said:

@krauser99: Hmmmm, there is an instance referenced in his wikia that says he knocks people out by tapping them. I looked the issue up and couldn't find him do it anywhere in the issue so the source might be off.

I don't think so though. I've only seen him kick and dislocate joints, knees, etc. But I have seen 616 do some pressure points.

Ult Cap is physically superior.

He wins.

@laflux said:

The slight skill edge 616 Cap may have is overturned by the significantly improved physicals of Ult Cap.

Good point but considering Steve has fought characters like USAgent, Protocide, 50's Cap, the new USAgent, Nuke. If he does have a stat edge it may not be enough to compensate(but then again it might be enough) Ult Cap is no joke. But considering that Steve is also enhanced to the peak of human "potential". And got a second enhancement as well in WW2, the immortal formula. This fight is no stomp for either IMHO.

@krauser99: Do you have scans or know issues from these pressure point feats for my collection?

@SlimJ87D said:

@krauser99: Do you have scans or know issues from these pressure point feats for my collection?

I seen one before my self. sad thing almost everyone knows Pressure Points.

Dare Devil, Electra, Bullseye, Wolverine, Spider Woman, heck even Beast used Pressure Points once.

LOL.

@CadenceV2: I only want it for my collection to post to those that say he doesn't know pressure point fighting.

But honestly, I don't believe in pressure point fighting because pressure points are mostly done on canon fodder or characters that aren't on par with the one in the fight.

Like Batman vs Captain America, how is he going to perform pressure points on someone that has a giant shield? it's not going to be a winning factor and he would have to get lucky that Cap doesn't have his shield up and leaves himself vulnerable to a pressure point.

I just don't like the argument of pressure pointing a nobody means you can pressure point everyone. Specially when the pressure points or a good example is Batman's vibrating palm that was used like one time and was never ever used on someone like Deathstroke.

Although Batman does have a good one he uses on Green Arrow. Maybe out of all the characters batman has used pressure points the most but out of all his fights, statistically he doesn't' use them that often.

@SlimJ87D said:

@krauser99: Do you have scans or know issues from these pressure point feats for my collection?

Sure I can't right now. But I will look up the scans for you tomorrow.

@cadencev2: This the thread you were talking about? :p

Whoa this is a a old one. I was looking for a Ultimate Cap vs Master Chief thread, found it too.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/master-chief-vs-ultimate-captain-america-655824/

@cadencev2: Oh my bad. I thought you said you could make an argument for 616 over Ultimate Cap in a fight.

616 Cap without too much trouble

@slimj87d: 616 Cap with his PIS showings could win.

Elaborate.

@erik: 616 Cap with his PIS could beat Ultimate Cap.

I have opinions on this fight, but I'm going to wait until someone says something I can't help but reply to.

Ult cap ftw

My vote goes to Ultimate Cap.

The key point to remember here is that strength is not Ultimate Cap's sole asset. Yes, 616-Cap has beaten foes with far stronger physicals before, but there's also the factor of skill to consider. Ultimate Cap is not some dumb brute who relies on raw power alone. He's considered one of the 'greatest tactical minds of the 21st century' and Fury describes him as being able to 'learn new skills faster than a computer'. Ultimate Cap has shown time and time again that he does fight smart. He may not have led the Galactic Council like Cap, but he's more than capable of thinking on his feet in a random encounter. It's one of his strongest suits. Read his encounter with the Ultimate Avengers - where with zero prep whatsoever, he bests every single one them, and only gets beaten because he wants to be beaten. Or even the first fight with the Hulk, where he's able to draw up multiple strategic options with zero time to prepare.

Compare 1610-Cap to similar foes that 616-Cap has beaten - e.g. Nuke, USAgent, Anti-Cap - they're all physically superior like Ultimate Cap, but you'd be hard-pressed to argue that any of them have shown the same degree of fighting prowess and tactical ability. This is the main difference here. So you've got Ultimate Cap, an opponent whose physicals already outclasses 616-Cap by a large margin, and he has plenty of feats to back up his tactical credentials. Do the math.

Another major point to consider: the absence of the shields affects 616 Cap more than Ultimate Cap. Now that's not to say that 616-Steve is entirely incompetent without his shield; but let's face it, it's a big part of his general fighting style. He relies on its unbreakable constitution for defense, and also uses it as an offensive tool with shield bashes/throws. Take the shield away, and 616-Cap loses a big aspect of his fighting edge. It's one of his prime advantages against foes with superior stats, as it gives him a broader variety of combat options (see: Cap's fights against Iron Man, Namor, Deathstrike, Iron Spider). Just look at his encounter with John Steele alone, and you can see that Steve struggles against physically-superior foes without his shield to close the gap (Though Steele's a somewhat extreme example because he far supersedes Ultimate Cap, but you get the point).

Whereas stripping Ultimate Cap of his shield is not such a drastic move. While Ultimate Cap does still incorporate the shield into his fighting style; I think we can all agree that 616-Cap's shield feats far outclass anything 1610-Steve has ever pulled with his own shield. Ultimate Cap relies less on shield tricks, and more on overwhelming force. One doesn't have to look any further than Ultimate Cap's fights against Nuke and the Colonel to see that he doesn't need the shield to best foes with comparable physicals (though he did use it a bit against al-Rahman). It should affect him less when he goes up against 616-Steve, a weaker opponent.

One could argue that 616-Steve is slightly faster and more agile, but I don't think the gap is that big of a difference. And honestly, considering the battlefield, there's only so many hits you can dodge and avoid before you take one. Similarly, the argument about 616-Steve possessing a higher degree of technical skill is also iffy. I believe in that respect, he does have a slight edge (based on Panther's, Beast's, and Kang's claims of his adaptability), but I don't think it's enough to be a major factor in the fight.

All in all, Ultimate Cap for the majority.

It's funny because the top is BEFORE and the bottom is AFTER :p

Ultimate Cap has this

Ultimate Cap wrecks.

My vote goes for

Captain America :) but I can see a case be made for the other.

Ultimate Cap wins.

Just look how big he is in his picture compared to 616 Cap. Ult. Cap is huge.

Oh Cadence... Such a biased fellah. <3

Ultimate Cap will crush 616 Cap

@grenadeflow: Here is the full scan....

LOL

How so :) In a thread that spawned this one, fools claim 616 can stalemate Ultimate Cap! LOL.

@veshark: I've been liking these detailed breakdowns of yours mate :)

Ultimate Captain America. He has less morals, either equally as skilled, stronger (marvel intended it this way, the handbooks say so) and has greater durability including a healing factor.

Thanks, ILS ;)

@jashro44 said:

@grenadeflow: Here is the full scan....

@ghostravage said:

Oh Cadence... Such a biased fellah. <3

LOL

Thanks for that scan.

Something I did not "consider" before. If you pay attention as Ult Cap is explaining the details of his plan out loud(lol)(PIS). Notice Ult Hulk is actually "grabbing" a rock while he is down(implying he is not out). And then when he grabs Ult Cap it shows small pieces of rocks flying towards Ult Cap. On the next page Wasp is surprised that he broke the needle..LOL. This is just speculation(since we don't see the rock before it breaks striking the needle) but it appears he was not knocked out. But I think he broke the adam needle tip, where it connects to the glass or plastic portion . I'm surprised I did not notice this before.

Oh well.

Still it does not take away the feat that Ult Cap batted him around, knocked him down(not out) and made him bleed from his nose and mouth(which implies he hurt him).(you can see the dark blood streams coming from Ult Hulk. Still impressive though.

What do you think Jashro?

All in all. I hope they one day do a cross over with Ultimates vs Avengers. Would be awesome, since there power level is very close to one another. Despite the hand books portraying Cap to be Batman level.

No problem.

As for my thoughts honestly I never thought ultimate hulk was knocked out. I have been arguing for like a year now that he was only knocked down and not out. As for the blood honestly I think it was just the artist exaggerating the whole thing. I've never taken it seriously. What I mean is:

I think the artist also exaggerated the above scan a bit to. Judging by the looks things it looks like the blade went through batman's spine but I don't think that was what was intended. I am sure he was intended to be mortally wounded but I don't think it was intended to be like this. I apply a similar idea to ultimate hulk and ultimate captain america. Basically I think the bit with the blood is AIS (Artistic induced stupidity). I don't dismiss either what batman did in court of the owls or what ultimate cap did to ultimate hulk but I don't think the feats were intended to be the way they were drawn.

As for the fight it self I am leaning towards ultimate cap.

I'm actually curious to the fans that say Ult Cap is "much" stronger then Cap. What feats does he have that truly show case this? Seriously feat for feat in raw strength feats there isn't much that shows him much stronger then Cap. Other then the hand books.

Gallery

These are some impressive strength feats but do they really out perform the consistent feats that Steve has displayed? I don't think this is the case.

Let start with the tree catch. Impressive shoot yeah. A falling tree that weights probably 5-6 tons. It is indeed impressive as Ult Cap caught and it shows him using his shield to help him. But I don't see it above Cap's ability.

Gallery

It's in reverse but notice the size of this huge concrete statue. Despite Cap being chained up with hardly no leverage or positioning.... he brings it down. The strength of the shield wrecks a tank. Notice it hits the turret so hard that the turret piece itself is knocked upwards in the air.

Now the even grapple with Spiderman is very impressive. But the context of the story showed Spiderman before about to have a nervous break down. As well in the story the punching power against Goblin was quite the distinction between Pete and Ult Cap, as I believe Ult Pete was holding back(but still impressive). But Cap feat's that I'd say are on this level.

Gallery

Here we have Cap winning a push off against class 10 USAgent. And incredibly making Ironman feel Cap's strength when being held down(even with Thor's help).(Which is funny as 616 Octo Spiderman did something similar to Thor/Hulk

The next one is Ult Cap using his entire pushing power on a slab of concrete with a car on it. Very impressive but once again not out of Cap's range of feat's like

Gallery

Pulling a supply truck in the desert(truck has a broken axel and in sand/dust).

Bringing down a helicopter with one arm.

To even holding in place a roaring get away car.

The next set are Ult Cap's work out regime impressive but nothing on a "extreme" level.

The only real advantage is the hand books that list Ult Cap at a 4 and Cap at a 3. But these are the same hand books that show Cap to be just peak human Batman level. They don't even mention his rapid healing or even that he is the next step in human evolution, with both are cannon.

So in strength.... I view these two very close but by actually strength feats, Cap might have the edge, though I view them as equals.

@krauser99: Plot shield feats are not strength feats and really... using PIS feats like Iron Man and Thor struggling to hold Cap down is kind of ridiculous. And no one, not even Marvel would dare make the claim that 616 Cap is a 10 tonner. Pulling a truck isn't even superhuman. Regular men do this stuff in strength shows. 616 Captain America is probably a 1 tonner. 2 if you are being extremely bold. Anything beyond that is just being silly.

Ultimate Cap has 616 Cap beat in almost every category, except his tactical mind and the ability to keep his cool. I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that Ultimate Cap is basically US Agent and Cap's beaten him plenty of times. I think in the long run it would be a good fight, but I think 616 Cap would play on Ultimate Cap's weakness of being hot headed and a bit of a bully and let him beat himself.

Really. A hot head and Bully? I think you underestimate Cap tactical abilities by alot then.

• Cap is what beat Hulk, no one else. He came up with each plan of attack, and through his legit tactics brought down the Hulk unlike his 616 Counterpart. Ultimate Cap came up with the Wasp in Hulks brain move.
• Ultimate Cap also was responsible for taking out Kleiser permanently. he knew he could not get a permanent win on him. So he had the Idea of Hulk dealing with him, manipulating Hulk to eat the guy.
• Ultimate Cap single handily with no prep took down a prepped Ultimate Avengers Team. He allowed himself to be captured too to learn where his son the Red Skull was too! He did all this with planning and foresight. He even beat the Cosmic Cube Red Skull with a Teleport Jet that tele Jump through the Skull!
• Ultimate Cap lead the planning and attacks to take down the entire Brotherhood of Mutants in a few short panels. These guys that never got taken down so fast by the X-men.
• Ultimate Cap Tactically use his genius to figure out how to breach the Nazi Base on his last mission. He told his superiors in the first comic how there plan was going to fail, so made a last second one that worked!
• Ultimate Cap tactically took down all the threats of America, and reunited the entire American country during Divided We Fall arc. America fell apart. Tony, SHIELD, Thor, none of them knew what to do. Cap comes out of exile and reunites the whole thing in a few days, and became President in the process!

There is tons more examples, but I am tired of writing them all. Here let me finish with these statements of how Ultimate Cap was granted super intelligence on top of his stats via the super soldier Serum.

Gallery

1) Banner states how the Serum grants massive Intelligence boost.

2) Scan shows Cap before the Serum was a average gimpy kid, not a fit genius.

3) Fury comments how Cap is tactically off the scale. Big statement from Fury himself.

4) Fury states Cap learns faster than a computer, a skill shown time and again as a WW2 soldier adapts to the modern day, and super sci fi tech of Ultimate comic world.

So trying to say he is not that Tactical is a understatement. In fact, he has done things that 616 have yet to do in tactics, or strategy. Add in the lesser morals, he is willing to play dirtier than 616 as well.

Accept Ult Cap is also not a 10 tonner. Ironman feeling Cap's incredible strength is not a PIS feat. And him busting up a tank is not a plot feat. That takes actual strength. Regular men don't pull a supply truck in the desert with a broken axel that's like comparing a man throwing a frisby to a man throwing equally a 500 lb weight.

Here is a good link that discusses 616 and Ult Cap's power levels:

http://www.captainamericamovies.com/2013/05/does-captain-america-have-super-powers_19.html

• I never said Ultimate Captain America was a 10 tonner. But he doesn't need to be in order to be radically stronger than 616 Captain America.
• And yeah, Iron Man feeling Captain America's strength when he has the like of Thor holding Cap in check is absurd Classic comic book PIS feats.
• Except Captain America is only peak human. So anyone with peak or better could replicate breaking a tank with the shield.
• A broken axle makes a vehicle unable to be driven. If the vehicle is stable enough for the wheel to remain in a fixed position (as we can see in the picture), then it can be pulled with literally no additional effort than when the axle is fine. So you're wrong about your weight comparison. That's stupid.

Nice.