@lvenger: Cool, i couldn't help myself i will delete the comment. As for @pope052 its no need to get disrespectful with words you could have said it more respectfully like lvenger did.
2v2 Team CaV: Hulk & Superman VS Sentry & Goku (G&L won)
This topic is locked from further discussion.
Very interesting and detailed post @lvenger. After reading all of that (6 Pages of Microsoft Word w/o Scans, kudos to you), I think Goku needs a little snack before he makes his rebuttal:
Just a second..
Alright, that's enough playing. Let's do this, "Super"man..
The ones I’ve bolded are advantages I disagree on and feel really belong to Superman as my opening post and rebuttals will demonstrate. Also, I shall exclude travel speed since it isn’t that useful in the fight and for now at least, allow Goku the edge in combat speed since I still have feats which can level the playing field.
From what you've shown me so far in both your opening and rebuttal posts, Superman truly has not demonstrated anything at all that permits you to make the claim of him being able to keep up with Goku in terms of Combat Speed in battle.
I have a ton of feats from Goku's early Kid/Teen stages in Dragon-Ball that match or exceed what Superman has shown altogether. Let alone trying to compare Superman to a Post-King Kai Training Saiyan-Saga Goku, Namek Saga and don't even get started on the levels of Super Saiyan (SSJ3 being his fastest speed, which is over four-hundred times faster than his Namek Saga speed, which already trumps Superman's speed to begin with).
I'm not using invalid/unreliable calculations either as I know how much trouble they would be in a debate such as this.
However, like I made clear if i'm leaving out the legitimate SSJ Multipliers, there's no point in debating unless we reduce Goku down to his strict Base Form also stripped of using Kaioken which wouldn't be fair.
Speaking of Super Saiyan, i'll let you in on a reminder of their multiplication figures:
- SSJ = X50 Base
- SSJ2 = X2 SSJ/X100 Base
- SSJ3 = X4 SSJ2, X8 SSJ, or X400 Base):
Also Goku can use Kaioken. That of which up to a quantifiable Kaioken X20doesn't harm his body, to make it fair and not speculate things we'll assume that Kaioken X20 is the maximum that Goku's body can withstand due to him not ever exceeding that number canonically speaking.
Although this is merely a Base Form Multiplier and not even half the amount of power that Super Saiyan gives him and it is especially inferior to Super Saiyan as it can be a risk to use depending on the level of Kaioken.
Therefore, Kaioken is theoretically useless to Goku in this battle unless Superman outlasts him long enough to the point where Goku has a minimal amount of energy to use, so he'll use a Kaioken X20 Burst as a last resort.
Based on my interpretation, that makes the score Goku – 3, Superman – 5 and the italics mean I believe Superman’s strategic thinking and powers to be more than a match for Goku’s fighting instincts and natural Saiyan abilities. But I shall come to Superman’s versatility and strategy later in the debate. This only gives Superman a slight advantage in abilities but as I intend to prove throughout the debate, these advantages make Superman too well rounded a foe for Goku to overcome.
I haven't seen much of Superman's strategic thinking used inengaged combat but i'll wait until you provide your case. Even so, I doubt Clark's strategic mind could exceed Goku's instinctive Saiyan genius-level combatant mind and seemingly instant adaptability to any unknown technique thrown at him.
Finally I highly doubt anything in Superman's side-arsenal (Heat-Vision, Frost Breath, X-Ray Vision, Etc) could surpass Goku's fantastic versatility varying from not only his mastered Ki-Manipulation but to telekinetic explosions, instantaneous movement to anyone's Ki that is available to sense regardless of dimension barriers, and precognitive abilities due to Ki Sensing (which would work on Superman as he is alive, and Ki is an internal life-force by definition).
I'll get into a lot more detail with Goku's Versatility near the end of this post, or perhaps in the next one. It depends how I see it nearing the end of this post :P
When expressed in this form, I admit power scaling seems much more reasonable. Unfortunately, the problems with using such logic can often spiral out of control if this form of reasoning is used to assume certain characters can perform specific feats without a shred of proof or any form of on panel indication that such a feat is within their reach. That is the problem with using power scaling in my opinion but since it’s essential to some arguments in DBZ feats and logic, that’s fine for this debate and I will only make as minor criticisms of it as possible.
I completely understand your opinion on the matter of power-scaling and like I said i'll only be using it to the absolute minimum in this and every future debate i'd be involved in concerning a DBZ Character.
However, if it does come to the point that I need to use it then so be it and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. For at least 95% of the debate though, it's going to be a load of on-panel feats mate.
I had remembered this feat hours after posting my first comment but I decided to allow you to bring it up in this post. Evidently, you show that it’s the most reliable interpretation of what Goku’s physical strength can be estimated to be. And you are correct that 1.6 million tons is mere child’s play to Superman. However, for the sake of the debate, I shall put physical strength beyond any reasonable doubt as being squarely in Superman’s corner.
Glad we can both agree without any hesitation that physical strength is undoubtedly Superman's honor no questions asked. Evidently, providing the feat of Superman pulling at least 3.3 Quintillion Tonnes of the Earth seals the advantage that he has in this aspect over Goku.
This point misses a critical factor weakening your overall claim. Superman was travelling at near light speed already whilst making the hit on the shadow moon. Along with the shadow moon also travelling at an alarming rate towards Earth, this is what ended up KOing him. In the scans I show of him moon busting, he’s perfectly fine and shows little fatigue in performing a moon busting feat. So my assertion that Superman is definitely a moon buster in striking power without KOing himself remains intact given the evidence provided. It'll become clear that Superman can handle how hard he hits perfectly fine.
In the first feat you provided, the force of Superman's punch shattered the moon to mere shards but clearly Superman was knocked back and felt the force of how hard he had hit. To me, he looks KO'd but i'll need to see what happens on the following page before I can think otherwise.
Then again, I only saw the initial effect of Superman's punch, but I didn't see the moon bethoroughly destroyed, I think later in this post you state it's only half.
In the second feat, I acknowledge that Superman was approaching light-speed but why would he have needed to take an acceleration build-up in the first place? My initial thought, is that Superman couldn't accomplish a complete moon-shattering punch unless travelling at a high-speed.
This applies to my case above, that Superman needs to achieve a certain speed to completely destroy a moon.
I know that you could prove me wrong on this one, but I haven't seen an entire moon being destroyed by Superman, except of course the Shadow Moon feat which looks more bad than good on Superman's part.
To conclude this aspect of the argument, the only feat that i've seen Superman completely bust a moon is the second feat you provided that of which Superman needed to take a speed build-up and KO'd himself in the process.
Superman two shotting Mongul demonstrates what kind of opponents Superman can lay down with his striking power. Mongul Jr inherited his father’s strength and durability and proved to be more of a match for Superman than his father at times given that Mongul Jr was involved in training Superman for Our Worlds at War or Imperiex's invasion. Yet Superman surpassed him in power and versatility and my scan shows just how easily Superman could take down Mongul in his prime. Mongul tanked Hal Jordan’s attacks during the Infinite Crisis tie in I cited earlier so that’s why Superman taking him down so easily is a good striking feat in my opinion.
Impressive, alright i'll concede to the fact that Mongul has some comparable durability to Superman (even though i'm merely taking your word for it).
Now, i'll bring up a similar feat on Goku's part:
Recoome made a mockery of Vegeta throughout their battle. He was taking all of the damage that Vegeta could dish out (both blunt force, and energy based attacks) in previous pages along with handily beating Gohan and Krillin to add to that.
Here, Goku one-shots him in a blitz:
Just to prove that it was indeed a one-punch, KO:
I could showcase Recoome's durability if you'd like, however it is rather lengthy as i'd just be providing entire issues of scans which is unnecessary.
For now though, Goku has a feat of one-shotting an opponent with a considerable amount of durability exceeding Vegeta's (who tanked a vicious beatdown from an enraged Oozaru Gohan whilst previously getting shot with a planet-buster, also considering Vegeta was also a lot less powerful in that instance than he was when battling Recoome).
To cut it short, Goku one-shotted an opponent who has durability exceeding another character who survived an assault from an enraged Oozaru (also factoring in the rest of the damage that character endured before that).
I figured you’d start with the Frieza comparison. However, allow me to begin this counter by analysing your feats. Most notably, there is no proof Nail was an Earth tier buster. He looks like he’s going all out against Frieza’s first form but his single strike and energy attack were no trouble for Frieza at all. Unless you’re going to use the logic that Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga could ‘destroy the Earth’ which I shall deal with later when you do use that feat, I fail to see how you can justify Nail being an Earth buster.
That's because 1st Form Frieza is easily over ten times more powerful than Nail. I have already showcased Frieza's durability. Therefore, easily tanking Nail's best hits is no surprise at all considering the gap between the two.
The same applies to Gohan. His Ki blasts encompassed a nuke blast radius at best, hardly enough to justify that Gohan was a moon tier buster in his Ki attacks. Gohan may have had a power boost on Namek but this analysis shows it was not enough for him to bust moons.
I've seen this argument, many many times before. I saw a quote from another thread on another site's forums (apologies, as I do not recall exactly which forums it was) that involved the following quote of this argument:
- The Ki blasts and attacks that are supposedly planetary/moon level from said characters have not caused the amount of destruction that the power is supposedly omitting (Example: The planet does not tear itself apart when they are fighting),therefore your claims are invalid."
This is an easy point to refute, this is to do with the said character's level of Ki Control. Whether they are clueless in the aspect, partially knowledgeable or have mastered the art.
Before I can refute this point though, we need to distinguish what Ki Control is:
To keep it short and sweet, the answer is within the question, Ki Control. It is a character's ability to harness the amount of power inherited within themselves to the extent of their masteryover the art.
To give an example of a character with minimal mastery over Ki Control, here we see Majin Buu. As we all may or may not know, Majin Buu has the mind of a four-year old child, butpossesses the power of a nigh Super Saiyan 3.
Due to Buu having a challenged intellect and no notable control over his Ki (Babidi was basically harnessing his Ki for him, and the following scan is just after Buu killed Babidi) this is the result of what happens:
Buu merely running through a city with the amount of power he has causes him to destroy everything in his path. If Buu had learned to harness his Ki (say, to Goku's extent), he wouldn't have caused that destruction at all.
The reason why character's (inheriting such power within themselves) do not cause severe damage to the planet they're battling on is due to them having an excellent mastery over Ki Control.
They can focus their energy into a single point, and fire it on the exact spot without causing excessive side effects whilst still putting the incredible amount of power into that attack.
Goku did it against Raditz:
And Vegeta did it against Cell:
To conclude this side of my argument:
- Due to having a degree of Ki Control mastery, vastly powerful characters do not cause total destruction whenever/wherever they are fighting. They can focus their energy into single points, to avoid destroying a portion of the planet and/or the entire planet itself.
- In the case of Nail and Gohan, Nail has just about enough power to bust a planet and Gohan has more than enough power to bust a moon because as a wise man once said..
Q: "What are the requirements for becoming strong?"
"There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”. Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important."
We Asked Akira Toriyama! 2013 (First question under the "World Section")
So in order to become more powerful, the characters just need to gain more Ki. That of which, Gohan had clearly done throughout the Saiyan to Namek Saga and Nail was already highly powerful himself. The only thing that partially matters, is how they control it.
Fortunately, these two aren't like Majin Buu, they are learned masters at controlling and manipulating their own Ki. (Gohan had learned to increase/decrease his Ki, sense Ki, and has even had psychic battles with Krillin. As for Nail, he too has shown the ability to increase/decrease his Ki at will).
Besides, Toriyama merely said "Ki Control isalso important", so that proves my case that Ki Control is not the primary factor to be necessarily a planet/moon buster, power itself is the main aspect (and this should be a given by default).
Next, Frieza deflecting Vegeta’s ‘planet busting attack’ can be dealt with as follows. Firstly, the key to Vegeta’s attack being planet busting is only Piccolo’s fearful cry that Vegeta may bust the planet. Thus this feat lacks a significant basis to justify it being a planet busting move. Secondly, Frieza’s deflecting it was clearly an act of ki manipulation as DBZ characters can deflect opponent’s Ki attacks. I’m sure I don’t need to prove this to you. This enables them to avoid getting hit by those energy blasts, thus meaning it was an act of Ki manipulation and nothing physical on Frieza’s part. Finally, Goku’s Full Power Spirit Bomb was only charged by life in the nearby solar system and perhaps outlying areas due to the scarcity of living organisms within Namek’s vicinity in space. So clearly, it did not pack as much of a punch as Goku’s Earth Spirit bomb in the Buu Saga did with energy drawn from the Earth and from humans giving it willingly. So this critique lessens the impact these feats hold for your striking power case,
First Point:
No, you can easily justify it being a planet-buster by the consistency from Vegeta's early to his future feats:
For one, he charged up enough power to bust the Earth in the Saiyan Saga (Goku could read Ki at this point, and was utterly panicking at the power of the Galick Gun that he had to go beyond what was a safe Kaioken X2 to a Kaioken X4, and crushed himself).
The second instance, is the very feat we're discussing that Vegeta sent a planet-buster at Frieza. Judging from his Earth feat, and Piccolo's cry (again, Piccolo can read Ki and therefore read the power of the blast) it's enough evidence to prove it at this point.
Still not convinced? Alright. Third and final instance, a Super Saiyan Vegeta had to hold back a lot of his power put into a moderate energy beam when fighting Android 18, as he would destroy the planet otherwise:
That's enough evidence to elaborate my case. I should also note, that i'm not accepting points such as "Vegeta is just arrogant like that". I'll need legitimate evidence that Vegeta is bluffing, and/or lying. Plus i've already debunked the "effects of the blasts don't adequate a planet-buster" argument.
In summary:
- Vegeta in his weakest instance, needed to charge a maximum power Galick Gun to bust the Earth.
- When he became stronger in the Namek Saga, he could replicate a planet-buster whilst not exerting his absolute fullest power.
- Finally in the Android Saga when SSJ he needed to hold back even a small Ki Blast or else he would have blown up the planet.
It all adds up. There's three instances of Vegeta being a planet-buster, all consistent and that's more than enough to confirm my case because due to Goku being clearly worried about Vegeta's Galick Gun and Piccolo's cry that he'd destroy the planet if that hit the surface (both Goku, and Piccolo are Ki Masters and can read a character's Ki like a book).
It's very clear that Vegeta is indeed, a planet-buster even in the Saiyan Saga, and Goku overpowered his maximum power Galick Gun with a Kaioken X4 Kamehameha.
Evidently a Kaioken X4 Goku is also a planet-buster (overpowering a planet-buster) and his Base Form in the Frieza Saga is vastly above a Kaioken X4.
Besides, I know where you're coming from when you disagree with these cases. In DC/Marvel, planet-busting does not happen often so it's seen as a threat.
In DBZ? It's nothing. Just take a look at the power charts:
- The weaker characters could blow up Moons (Roshi/Piccolo).
- Then progressing to Planetary/Multi-Planetary level with more powerful characters (Vegeta/Goku/Frieza).
- Then they take a big leap up to Solar-System level (Cell/SSJ2 Tiers).
- Then a massive stretch up to Dimension/Reality Shattering/ Multi-Galaxy Level/Nigh-Universal (SSJ3 Gotenks/Buuhan/SSJ Vegito).
I can say this much, DBZ is crazilyoverpoweredat least in terms of destructive output. So when even Krillin tells you Goku will blow up the Earth with a single Kamehameha, (i'll let Heisenberg finish this sentence..)
Second Point:
You're both right and wrong on that statement. You're right, deflecting Ki Blasts is a form of Ki Manipulation in DBZ. It's due to the characters using their Ki to amp their physical durability and therefore able to deflect/tank powerful Ki Blasts.
However, you're wrong in regard to Frieza. As Frieza himself has on-panel planetary level durability without Ki. After he cut himself in half, Goku gave Frieza a small portion of Ki to be able to even move:
Then Frieza pointlessly put all of that Ki into one Ki Blast, firing it at Goku and was Frieza's beam was hopelessly defeated:
Namek then exploded, and Frieza survived without Ki:
Besides, I even showed a scan earlier in this debate where Frieza stated that all planetary explosions/busters could do was deduct a little of his strength. For the sake of the argument, i'll bring it up again:
There's your point entirely countered, Frieza deflecting the blast was not a form of Ki Manipulation and was indeed a physical attribute.
Third Point:
I realize that Goku's Spirit Bomb on Namek was nothing compared to the one he used on Kid Buu. However, the Spirit Bomb itself is Goku's most effective attack on a powerful opponent and King Kai even stated that even the small Spirit-Bomb could destroy the planet if not used with caution:
Therefore, the Spirit-Bomb used on Frieza was still a planet-buster regardless of it being a lot smaller than his Spirit Bomb used on Buu.
This kind of basis for Goku’s striking power is only possible if we accept a certain predicate which I feel is flawed in utilising to justify Goku having planet busting striking power in his SSJ form. In my opening post, I distinguished between blunt force and energy projection/explosion based durability feats. Physical attacks are focused on a pinpoint single target which in Goku’s case was Frieza. In contrast, a planet explosion produces a burst of energy spreading out from the explosion and encompassing the projected blast radius. These are two different kinds of attacks unless it is absolutely clear it was a punch that caused the planet to explode that certain feats have shown. Bearing this mind, I believe it is now crystal clear that the parameters of Goku’s physical strikes cannot be likened to the energy output of an exploding planet. Just because Frieza has a high energy projection durability, that clearly differs from his ability to soak up blunt force of which Goku could produce the necessary force in the Super Saiyain form. The logic entailed in following these premises is faulty and does not contain the destructive impact nor distance travelled from the strike that Superman has shown at a superior rate to Goku in the feats I have given for him. Granted, Goku did hit hard enough to bypass Frieza’s durability but this is now evident that it does not make him anywhere near a planet buster nor able to contend with Superman in striking power. Now time for some calculations of my own
No, no, no. You misinterpreted my explanation to this case, sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I merely meant, that Goku could do internal damage to Frieza with one punch that cracked through Frieza's Durability, which is impressive considering everything else Frieza had tanked.
I didn't say SSJ Goku was a planetary level striker, that's a SSJ3 Goku's job. Although, you did interpret one aspect of this argument just fine, and that was "SSJ Goku can harm Superman". Which is true, yes he can considering the harm he did to Frieza, one-shotting Recoome (with his Oozaru Level Durability) and if I were to go back and take every single one of Goku's striking feats before that, I can prove that he does indeed back enough force with his punches sufficient to cause Supermanpain.
Granted, Superman would hit harder than a SSJ Goku and would definitely not be caused great deals of pain from a SSJ Goku by feats but that's why Goku has SSJ2 to match Superman's striking power, and then SSJ3 to exceed Superman's striking power.
In regards to your third "Moon-Busting" feat, as far as I know Superman was flying at several times the speed of light in deep space, as he heard the news of Lex Luthor becoming president:
Not to mention, it was only a split in the middle of the Moon and he was flying at a tremendous speed. That's why he wasn't fatigued, as he only put a clean hole through it and Superman had a great speed build-up.
The only scan you have of Superman entirely destroying a moon is the one where he also had speed build up but KO'd himself. So, Superman's damage output is 592 Billion Tsar Bombs, which is utter child's play to Goku.
In regards to your calculations, two can play that card:
On your last point, the following feat is the one that excels Superman's striking power by a significant margin.
I must concede, this is definitely Goku’s best striking feat and you justify it well. There’s a solid explanation centring on the 10x gravity on King Kai’s planet and I can’t really do much more than nitpick at it which I may do later if I can’t think of anything else. This definitely makes it your best feat showcasing Goku’s striking power. However, when it comes to contrasting it with Superman’s striking power, your analysis lacks a crucial understanding of the crux of my feat. As I have demonstrated above, Superman speeding towards the shadow moon at light speed is what KOed him, not the moon busting punch itself. His ease of moon busting in the other two feats provided demonstrate his lack of exertion performing them. This illustrates that as well as possessing a greater number of striking feats over Goku, Superman also outranks him in most quality striking feats too. All Goku has to contend with Superman's striking power is the feat outlined above thus far. Besides if Superman ever used that specific moon busting punch on Goku, it would take Goku down for certain given its full force and Goku’s lack of high end blunt force durability feats. Fortunately for me, I’ve shown how Superman can moon bust without travelling at light speed and so I maintain the view that Superman’s striking feats are still more impressive than most of Goku’s. So unfortunately your last claim doesn't hold much bearing given my overall analysis
- Superman only entirely destroyed a Moon in the Shadow Moon feat, which he needed to exert himself and was KO'd in the process.
- In Saturn's Moon feat, he was already flying at a great speed and didn't even destroy the whole moon, only split a hole through it.
- In the final feat of him standing still, I didn't even see how much of the moon he destroyed (according to you it was about half), and he didn't look lucid afterwards either.
Out of those three moon-busting feats, in only one Superman destroyed a whole moon and KO'd himself. In the second one, he destroyed seemingly half or a large portion of it, and looked possibly KO'd as well. In the last one, he was already going at a highly fast speed and only cut a hole through it.
All in all, Superman's "Moon-Busting" feats aren't nearly as impressive as you make them out to be. You leave out a lot of variables within the feats and let alone trying to compare them to SSJ3 Goku's striking feat which is infinitely better than any moon-busting feat you throw at him (unless planets that are ten times worth of Earth's gravity with a superior durability feat over the Earth, suddenly moved down in the ranks below Moons?)
Superman may have more striking feats, but even though only one of Goku's striking feats is excelling Superman, it is still above Superman's by a significant margin.
Like I said, quality outweighs quantityand Superman's Moon-Busting quality doesn't live up to a Super Saiyan 3 Goku's standard, especially considering the variables within those Superman feats. Comparing who looked the better of the two after both combatants hitting that hard, Goku easily takes the cake.
Not to mention, Goku wasn't even trying to blow a hole through King Kai's Planet in the first place. If he wanted to, he could have went all Superman style and flew through the planet with all his force and destroyed the entire planet. Then again, that ain't his style.
I’m afraid not since unless the foe he’s fighting is greatly above his physical strength level or is at least a confirmed teambuster, it’s nigh impossible to put Superman down with pure physical force. My scans show the heaviest hitters in the DC Universe failing to significantly harm Superman with their striking force so I fail to see how Goku will fare any better than they will against Superman toe to toe.
As for the Bizarro punch, I can definitely assure you it is up to Goku’s standards. Bizarro has tossed celestial bodies together to make his infamous square shaped Bizarro world and was created during the Emperor Joker arc as a duplicate of Superman rivalling him in the physicality department. If this argument is not enough then here’s a superior scan showcasing Superman’s sheer resistance to blunt force.
- Like I said, I agree that Superman is highly above Goku in physical strength and that Goku is not putting Superman down with brute force alone. However, Goku does not engage with physical strength in combat most if not all of the time other than that "arm-locking" instance with Cell. I have showcased as to why Goku will harm Superman with his striking power and I haven't seen anybody (who has harmed Superman with physical force) surpass a Super Saiyan 3 tier striking standard.
- Punching someone through the Earth, is impressive i'll give Superman/Bizarro that. However, it is not as impressive as actually punching through the Earth. Say for example, i'm strong enough to punch you through a wall, the force of my punch combined with your body's mass flying through the wall is not as good as punching through the wall yourself. That's why the Bizarro punch isn't necessarily up to Goku's standard.
This’ll be one of the trickiest parts of the debate, Goku’s energy output vs Superman’s durability. Obviously you have put forward the view that Goku’s energy output will be able to bypass Superman’s durability eventually. With the moon busting feats, DBZ is well known for heavily abusing cinematic time just like Broly’s supposed galaxy busting feat in his first DBZ film appearance. Take into consideration the long charge up time for Goku’s more powerful Kamehamehas in both Goku/Vegeta’s beam struggle and Goku’s Instant Kamehameha on Cell and Superman being fast and aggressive enough to keep Goku fighting in close quarters and Goku won’t get the time to power up his Ki attacks as much as he needs to hurt Superman.
Firstly, it is absolutely and blatantly false to assume that both Piccolo and Roshi's Moon-Busters were merely sped-up cinematic times. For one, there is no evidence you have to back up this claim (using the non-canon and irrelevant Broly feat does not help your case, although you are correct on that one).
Piccolo's feat happens on the same page as does Master Roshi's for that matter. They were not sped up, they wereFTL:
Secondly, that's a common and likely the most prevalent DBZ misconception that they "need time to achieve their maximum power blasts". While for the most part this is true, it is extremely over exaggerated.
When fighting Kid Buu, he used a Kamehameha on the spot and blew off Buu's torso:
Gallery
Given the amount of time it took Buu to regenerate and turn around only to see Goku smash him aside, it would likely be similar if Goku pulled off the same manouvre on Superman.
Now, let me look at Goku and Vegeta’s energy beam struggle. I’ll admit, this is actually the hardest to critique out of the showings you’ve given me for this part of your post since the options available are not very extensive to make a thorough counter analysis of this feat. Nonetheless, there is a crucial misunderstanding in taking merely Vegeta’s bragging coupled with the sheer conflict of the beam not causing continental, let alone planetary level destruction. The only impact and collateral damage of the energy attacks occurred in the area the beam struggle took place in. So in short, you do lack proper concrete proof for this attack of Goku’s being a planet busting one. Still, one possible reply (though it's not what you'll say I guess) can be “But none of the beams ever touched the ground so how can you claim that Vegeta’s Galick Gun or Goku’s Kaiokenx4 Kamehameha isn’t planet busting?” And that’s a good point to make.
I've already debunked this, it's due to the character's Ki Control and ability to focus it onto a single point like firing a bullet. As for the last point, there's also that. None of the beams ever reached the surface, so no questionable judgement can be made.
Besides, you're trying to factor the effects of physics that a planet-buster would have on the planet it were fired on, into a fictional battle were effects defy physics and science by all accounts. If I were to go by your logic, I may as well blatantly call Superman's light-speed movement false as he would tear the planet apart if he were really going that fast.
Fortunately, this is what actually makes your next feat all the easier to tackle. So when Goku fires the Instant Transmission Kamehameha at Cell, all it does is release a massive explosion that destroys the top half of Cell’s body and emits a blinding flash all across the Cell Games Arena. And the most fundamental aspect of all, Goku’s attack comes into direct contact with the ground yet there is never any indication that the attack has any sort of planetary level of destruction. There isn’t a beam of energy zooming off into space like Vegeta’s Final Flash to avoid the planetary destruction and so when this feat is deconstructed, it can be put into its full perspective. Now, the Instant Kamehameha will have practical combat applications in being able to teleport and possibly get a surprise attack on Superman but I stand by my assertion Goku wasn’t able to planet bust as a SSJ at this point in the anime. It’s reasonable to assume later on he can planet bust with his Ki attacks, especially as a SSJ3 but based on this showing, I think otherwise. Nonetheless, even if you reply with an excellent counter proving these criticisms to be wrong or I accept your premise that Goku is a planet buster in energy projection, that doesn’t affect my argument for Superman’s durability in the slightest. Why?
Again, the "effects a planet-buster should have on the planet" argument has been debunked. It's due to Ki Control, Ki Focusing, and not trying to factor the effects of physics into fictional battles.
If were to go by that logic, nearly all of Superman's golden speed feats would be invalid.
I have provided the counters and evidence for me to have the right to state that even Namek Saga Base Goku is planet-buster.
Also I have another reason to add to the collection:
As we all know a SSJ Goku surpassed a 100% Full-Power, Final-Form Frieza.
In regards to Frieza's power output himself he had destroyed Planet Vegeta while in his mere 1st Form, purposely hit Namek's center allowing the planet to slowly erupt on itself and eventually explode within minutes, and King Cold's statement that both him and/or Frieza could destroy the Earth with a single blast. It's clear that Frieza is a Multi-Planet Buster.
So then we get back to Cell Saga SSJ Goku, generating a Kamehameha sufficient enough to blow up the Earth as stated by both Krillin and Cell (two beings, both masters at reading Ki).
Considering how Goku had triupmhed over Frieza (with his confirmed feats), it isn't at all a surprise that Goku is indeed easily a high tier planet-buster in SSJ and beyond more than capable of blowing up the Earth.
Now, to counter your durability showings:
- Superman surviving Pluto blowing up? Pluto is even smaller than the Earth's Moon, and is not even considered a planet scientifically. It's labelled as merely a dwarf planet. This is the negligible difference between Pluto, and the Earth:
Superman surviving two planets colliding is an impressive durability feat, it does not classify as a "planet-busting" feat as the planets were still intact the following page after that, they merely merged together.
When people showcase this feat like it's a supposed planet-buster, they always ironically leave out the aftermath. It's an impressive durability feat regardless, but does not certify as a planet-buster as no planet actually was destroyed in the process.
This contrasts greatly with Goku’s durability for planet busting attacks. He’s run away from two and has been killed by one. Pretty telling based on on-panel comparison between Superman and Goku’s energy projection durability.
- Goku ran away from two as in the first instance on Namek he was a mere SSJ and not nearly as durable as a SSJ3. In the second instance on Earth w/ Kid Buu, Goku needed to save the people he could from the explosion rather than stop it himself (which he could have done in SSJ3, but didn't have enough time to do so).
- As for being killed by an exploding Cell, that was because it wasCell who killed him who was omitting much more power than a simple planet-buster. The exact amount if unquantified but it was more than Goku could take (planetary explosions aren't his limit mate).
Besides even if Goku couldn't truly tank a planetary explosion, that is fortunate for me in this debate though as Superman has nothing that can omit the power of a planet-buster that Goku has to worry about like before.
Finally for the record, Goku held back a Super-Nova like Ki Attack from Bills (at 70% power), as a mere Super Saiyan:
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That is enough to support my claim that Goku could have easily pushed back or deflected Kid Buu's Ki Blast that destroyed the Earth. Considering how Goku was also worn out after fighting Bills, that furthers my case as to why planetary explosions being supposed bypassers to Goku's durability are not necessarily valid.
And guess what my friend? These aren’t even Superman’s best durability feats that I’m saving up for! I had planned to set out a 3 stage process of Superman’s responses to Goku’s energy projection but this reply is long enough so I’ll only make part one of my post. One way in which Superman can deal with Goku’s Ki attacks is to meet them with his own main ranged form of attack, his Heat Vision.
This scan is a perfect reply to your statement above, and popped into my head as my eyes were scanning across your words. I'm glad those weren't Superman's best durability feats, because if they were Goku would have made short work of him already ;P.
Besides, I already know of one of Superman's best durability feats. That one being, the super-nova feat.
However what makes this feat difficult for you to quantify in regard to this specific fight is that Superman's durability in space is higher than his durability on Earth and that is convenient for Goku in this battle. Also for the record Goku (and all Saiyans/Half-Blood Saiyans) can survive in space (see the above video, he and Bills took the battle into space).
Then again it's not necessarily relevant here, but just pointing it out. Frieza's statement saying otherwise is utterly meaningless, when outmatched by feats.
Now, to get onto your Heat Vision points:
- I'll concede to the fact that the Heat-Vision is notably hotter than the Kamehameha. Although the Kamehameha itself has been used to extinguish flames, but of course granted flames are not nearly as hot as Clark's Heat Vision.
- This is probably the Heat Vision's best showing, and while impressive for Superman it's not even close to the amount of power that the Kamehameha omits.
- What I also know about this feat is that Superman downright stated afterwards that he couldn't do that twice:
- Like you yourself had even pointed out, you cannot compare blunt force trauma attacks to the likes of Heat Vision and go onto say that Superman's Heat Vision can bypass Team-Buster's durability when his durability feats rely on blunt force trauma.
Granted, I do concede that Goku’s energy projection surpasses Superman’s but my scans show Superman can match Goku’s ranged attacks for a while thus allowing Superman to think of another move or keep the fight going longer to allow Hulk to beat Sentry.
Indeed, Goku does surpass Superman in terms of energy projection. However, albeit your scans are impressive (for Superman) but they lack any significant power showing to state it could even fend off a Kamehameha for as little as a second, let alone match it.
Judging from both sides best showings, Goku's Kamehameha would basically ignore Clark's Heat Vision and head straight for Superman considering how outmatched it is.
So all in all, if Superman went for a crossfire with a Kamehameha like you're suggesting, err err.. very bad idea.
Moving onto your Combat Speed points:
That’s cute but Superman can move so fast that he can see lightning in slow motion. Two can play at this game.
That merely proves that Superman could see a twelve-year old Goku move in slow motion. That being, Goku over thousands of times slower than the one Superman is fighting in this scenario.
In regards to my second combat speed scan, Superman is clearly setting off multiple sonic booms in that fight as he moves around trading blows with this super powered foe. To me, that’s definite confirmation of his multi hypersonic combat speed at least to set off so many sonic booms in a fight. Oh and as an off hand comment, the exploding baby was in a combat situation since Superman was fighting off other interested parties in the baby seen in scan one as well as prevent an explosion in that scan.
Setting off multiple Sonic-Booms does not make it Hyper-Sonic speed. As we all may or may not know, Sonic-Booms are created when an object breaks the sound barrier. That scan merely puts Superman at M (Massively) Super-Sonic+ Combat Speed, which is even below Kid Goku's standard.
Also the baby feat was not a combat instance, as we has flying the baby away before it exploded within a span of a nanosecond, which does not classify as a fighting instance.
Now, to move onto your rather.. inadequate Combat Speed feats for Superman, and I certainly do not agree that Superman is above Dragon-Ball Goku's speed at all for that matter. As my following replies to your feats and feats of my own will prove just that:
First Feat:
It's difficult to interpret exactly what is going on. For one, we see the bullets bouncing off of Superman and he states "the bullets hurt, but they don't pierce my skin". I didn't see him snatch a bullet. The following feats from Goku are clear bullet-timing speed:
Goku was able to see, and avoid three bullets that were fired at him:
He spins his power-pole fast enough to deflect five bullets:
I already showcased a feat of him leaving an After-Image after a bullet was fired at him, and there's another one where he reacted to a bullet fired from behind him. So bullet-timing feats (when in reality, Superman didn't even snatch or dodge a bullet as they deflected off of him) for Superman, are child's play to Kid Goku.
Second Feat:
While undoubtedly intriguing for Superman, Goku has showcased a very similar but more impressive feat as a Teen:
Goku while engaged in combat, managed to move so fast that an already (invisible speed) moving Tien couldn't notice, see, nor even feel Goku taking off the belt:
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And why is this feat more impressive than Superman's? Superman had time to take off the rings as Arion was transforming and possesses no super-speed even remotely comparable to Tien (that i'm aware of, you can try to prove me wrong on this claim though).
Goku on the other hand, snatched a much larger object off of a much faster opponent than Arion and who was actually engaged in combat whilst moving at a consistent hyper-sonic speed.
That's why.
Third Feat:
When taken into consideration with my first speed scan of how Superman controls his speed, I can safely say that Superman will be able to speed up to adjust for Goku’s surprising speed. And this is without my trump card for the speed department I’ll play later on.
You're right this is the best Combat Speed feat that you've presented for Superman and i'm highly impressed by it. However, this scan would be entirely different if trying to use it and compare it to a combat situation with Goku:
For one, Superman being able to increase his speed in a situation such as this is not a reliable argument that allows you to back up the claim of him being able to "speed up if Goku's speed surprises him". As in this feat the context is different to fighting a speedster as it was merely a ray that made it seem as though time has stopped to Superman and not an opponent that was outmatching Superman's speed to begin with.
This is not permit you to compare how Superman would keep up against Goku who can fight on a completely different level of speed than Superman can. It's impossible to accurately compare the two to say that Superman could apply a speed increase identically in both situations which is a very speculative assumption.
If you provided a case of Superman speeding himself up against an actual opponent when hopelessly outmatched in speed compared to that opponent's standard, and then being able to keep up/match or exceed that character in a battle then by all means i'll concede that Superman could speed up to keep up with Goku but then again Goku's feats already trump this feat by a wide gap.
Nice try though. Now if you'll allow me to present to you my main case for Goku's Combat Speed and why Superman has nothing on it:
That's enough on Goku's Combat Speed for now, don't worry though those weren't Goku's best feats either but then again i've already showcased as to why Superman hasn't demonstrated anything that allows you to put him equal to a Teen Goku.
Finally, all of the main aspects of my rebuttal are done and dusted it's now time for me to make another conclusion:
Post-Conclusion:
- Goku's Striking Power in SSJ3 has proven itself to be superior than Superman's and even in SSJ2/SSJ he could still harm Superman (albeit not to the same extent) with his hits. Not to mention, Goku can handle punching as hard as he does easily and does not need to exert himself like Superman clearly needed to do in some of his best feats of Striking Power.
- Goku's Energy Projection has proven itself able to cause great deals of damage to Superman and possiblt KO him for that matter even in regular SSJ and it should go without saying that Goku's Energy Projection cancels out Superman's by a significant margin. Goku can also deal with planetary explosions as i've proven regardless of the three instances involving him being killed once and the two he has escaped from, that of which I have debunked.
- Goku's Combat Speed even in the primary stages of Dragon-Ball have showcased to be already exceeding Superman in the aspect and anything above is out of Superman's league to contend with.
- I'll get more focused on Goku's Durability within the next post. I'll also go into detail as to why Goku's Versatility exceeds Superman's by a long shot and that his instinctive Saiyan intellect and adaptive abilities enable him to exceed Superman's strategic thinking.
Oh man.. making that post took at least three times the amount of effort it did to make the first one. Ugh.. i'm tired but it was fun making it and i'm dying to see how you'll respond to it.
Your move, @lvenger (Superman) ;P.
@lvenger may be like Batman when it comes to prep time, but i'm like Mr.Satan when it comes to downright action:
Unbeatable.
@pope052: We'll see about that by the time this is over. We'll see indeed...
Jokes, I dobut it'll be that easy :P
I've finished my post ^^ Now then, tommorow i shall try to make a second post so we can continue. And since its sunday i should be able to get on tomorrow.
Back on the road
Speed is irrelevant on your offensive potential if you can't even harm me, which is what you really need in order to beat me... Hell, to beat anyone. That being said, if the battle prolongs it would solely benefit me, the same can't be said about you.
Haha, bullet points x3
- I think this is a bit untrue as Sentry CAN harm hulk weather it be energy emission, molecule manip or physical prowess...speaking of matter manipulation,
This is actually a counter to your earlier arguement about him only using matter manipulation while voided out, this scan renders that argument neutered.
As i said, tackles and bullrushes are not a very good tactic agains Hulk... It's has been proven time and time again that's one of the worst strategies you can opt to utilize... Let me show you...
I believe i said that in response to you saying sentry's speed feets were travel speed feats. Regardless, sentry indeed has more strength than either iron man or the 100+ tonner. Not only that, strength isn't sentry's only weapon. as i showed in my previous rebuttal.
2 times with 100+ toners, why would Sentry be any different when he's fighting by far, his strongest incarnation? From this point im positive, tackles mean squat against the Green Scar and relying on it would only shorten the time it would take him to stomp Sentry.
As stated earlier
- Pure physical strength isn't his only way of attacking
- Hes extremely stronger than either of those 2.
- I could punch someone in the head from behind without him noticing me at first, would it count as Speedblitz? Not exactly.
Do you have any proof Morgan took no notice of sentry going behind her from the front?
Agree, Hulk is a beast. Anyway, the problem with your tactic is, the only thing you can really do with speed is dodge, there isn't a real way to phase Hulk significantly when he pretty much overpowers Sentry's damage output solely by durability, let alone his even more overpowered regeneration factor to add on his already top notch durability.
I will say Hulk has impressive durability but saying sentry can't even phase or move him is absolutely ridiculous.
Gallery
And keep in mind the entire fight was while sentry was weakened and in a mentally unstable state. And as we all know, sentry's mental state affects sentries abilities.
The fact that you're already conceding in Hulk tagging Sentry a few times is giving me the win for sure, since i already showed what Hulk can do while holding back and without using his canalizing abilities on Sentry's face. What real counter do you have for Hulk's overall supremacy in physical matters? I'll gladly wait for your durability feats.
I never conceded to hulk tagging sentry, i merely stated " if" hulk manages to hit him once or twice. And as for his fight with sentry, again he was in a weakened and mentally unstate state. As for durability, i've already posted scans
It doesn't matter if he didn't show any kind of pain, which he actually showed given the fact he asked for more then said "that's it" implying he needed that pain to finally be "angry/excited/twisted... you name it" to cut loose. I can put a lot of anesthesia in my mouth then rip off my teeth and feel nothing, but that doesn't mean the harm isn't there.
Fair Enough, however keep in mind Sentry was allowing hulk to hit him and wanted to be hit. This means he wasn't trying to resist the attack and thus more damage was inflicted on him.
If anything, as i said before, the instance just benefits me because it shows how easily Hulk bypassed Sentry's invulnerability with 1 punch. Honestly, i would restrain myself from using such issue for reference given Hulk was pretty much owning him while holding back.
Actually the same can be said to you as Sentry wasn't in a right state of mind. More-over, i fail to see how he was being owned the entire fight.
He doesn't need to say he got obliterated and then reformed if his dialogue implies he was hurt at the very least. Not to mention, you do have feats to showcase Sentry's durability instead of that one that doesn't hold much and it's merely left for the readers interpretation, in other words, yes, it is a moot point.
What makes you assume his entire body was obliterated and then reformed? Also You realize that either way this is a feat for sentry right? If he was obliterated and reformed its a regeneration feat, if not, then durability feat.
Im getting it, and he will tag Sentry eventually, actually, he's going to tag him several times because the only way Sentry has to harm Hulk involves a physical approach in which Hulk will put his hands on him rather easily, all of this is reinforced by the fact Sentry can't really harm Hulk that way, which would mean Hulk will be barely annoyed by those hits and will be able to react rather fast to grab him.
So, you mean to say that sentry cannot harm hulk through use of matter manipulation and or energy blasts? I've already explained how he can harm hulk through energy waves. Secondly, How are sentry's punches not going to harm him in the slightest? And again, i posted evidence of sentry's punches hurting hulk.
As for the Teleport ability, he has never used that ability in combat, let alone being completely useless if he can't teleport short distances "Nightcrawler" style.
Who said he couldn't teleport short distances? He was able to teleport from an explosion.
So has Savage Hulk in classic days in Incredible Hulk Annual #1, when he was barely a shadow of what current and modern Savage Hulk are as far as durability goes, let alone Pak's Hulk. Not to mention it was literally at point blank, which is more impressive than being partially far away from him as he was in Silent Wars.
Hulk was sent flying and looked almost ko'd until he got up. Sentry on the other hand merely stood there, making a face. I fail to see how getting thrown is more impressive than shrugging it off. Distance shouldn't mean anything.
This is probably your best card so far... However, how strong were those Terrax's blasts... Im almost positive Sentry hasn't used those force fields in a physical fight either. So it's up to you to show if he really does that in-character, let alone in a fight that solely involves physical damage.
Ah, your basing your argument solely upon the assumption that this fight is entirely physical? If so, you are wrong, sentry is going to be utilizing every one of his abilities not just his fists. Most importantly, his energy emission. Moreover, If Sentry could use them against blasts, its safe to assume he could against physical hits. As for the Axe;s power
The fact that he wasn't talking in black speech bubbles in his encounter with Molecule Man was because Void didn't took over Sentry, but Sentry tapped into Void's side, which again, it's against the rules in this thread.
I've already proven that molecule manip is a fundamental part of sentrys arsenal through the previous scans. This is stated by him himself, so this whole thing is moot.
Hulk has a very large advantage in those 2 departments and he is strong enough to make Sentry feel it HARD staggering him in place the moment he connects, allowing him to land a barrage of punches on him. I disagree about Sentry avoiding most of Hulk's attacks playing as a winner strategy. Hulk has been tagging speedsters since classic days. With his mind, that stated by Cho works the same as his in Incredible Hulk #110, Hulk will prove more than capable of tagging Sentry several times as he has done various times against speedsters like Quicksilver and Blue Kelso just to mention a few...
Aha, no. Your acting as if sentry isn't capable of dodging or countering, and instead treating him as-if one hit will make him stagger and allow hulk to proceed and beat on him. First of all, even in their previous fights, Nothing like that happened, more presently, hulks reactions are slow compared to sentry, and should he land a hit, sentry can just as easily retaliate with energy blasts or his own hits. Or simple fly up in the air, and rain planetary level energy blasts down at hulk. And if he tries leaping up and smashing sentry back down, he has more than enough speed to dodge. Secondly, Sentry is leagues above quick silver or blue.
He just knows where to hit because of his brain. That being said, the best tactic against Speedsters is wait for them to come close your range of attack and predict them, which will prove immensely easy for Hulk given his mentioned calculating attribute along with his already incredibly high intellect, strategist mind and cunning as he proved while fighting the X-Men...
The thing is, sentry isn't only a speedster like quicksilver, he can hit insanely hard, emit planetary level blasts, erect force fields, ect.
There isn't any misinterpretation, the statements are as clear as water. Why mentioning them both if each one of them could make planets explode? It was because it was the combined energy projection that could've done that. And i said he wasn't showing that energy projection since there were no planets being destroyed and it was merely a text box of Captain America's statements. As far as that feat goes, it is just a statement with an implication that still lacks the graphic proof. In other words Character to Character overhyping.
- That arguments irrelevant as it stats " worlds" not planet, implying that they both are capable of emitting energy of shredding at-least a planet. Moreover, their both holding back
- That was't captain americas statements, as in the bottom text box it says, " Captain america knows they actually still hold back." And im not sure if captain america is known for speaking in third person.
What energy projection feats do you have for Sentry that makes the combined energy of these 2 irrelevant? Not to mention Human Torch could generate the same heat as the first layers of the sun, which conveniently was the kind of heat that almost killed Sentry back in Dark Avengers #13 and Ororo can and has affected Hulk's brain function in the past with lightning, yet it proved useless against him, they couldn't even phase him enough for him to become "that" angry. If anything, while they're might be inferior to Sentry, the fact that Hulk shrugged off their attacks so easily is still a relevant benchmark to showcase Hulk's energy projection resistance while being exponentially behind World Breaker Hulk.
While again, impressive, it only showcases that hulks heat resistance is greater than sentrys not that he has high energy projection resistance.
He took a Old Power energy projection from an enraged Hiro-Kala at point blank several times without much trouble, ultimately shrugging it off. What makes this feat awesomely legit is the fact Hiro-Kala's Old Power increases with rage. This is forwardly stated in Son of Hulk #19...
As mentioned by him, both his brother's control over Old Power as well as his father's power generated by anger flows through him. But to make emphasis in your "mere statement" instance... Hiro-Kala actually has planetary feats with his energy projection as proven in Incredible Hulks #617 when he was fighting Skaar.
So, he busted a single planet through a chain reaction process? This is impressive but it doesn't compare to having the power to bust multiple planets. Moreover, it seems as if he was unleashing all his power while doing so whilst sentry was holding back in said instance. Lastly, the planet feat didn't look as if he were using direct blasts. Moreover just cuasing the planet to break apart by unleashing his power
So to put it simple, Hulk shrugged off energy-based attacks from someone who can break planets without much trouble actually shown on panel... Not exactly what you've shown which is just a mere statement and a planet is not shown to be highly affected like my instance. It worths to note, the planet was significantly far from Earth and the Moon by the moment this picture took place.
Again, his unleashed powre was simply breaking apart the planet, not clear cut destroying it. Although its moot opint since yes it obvious he has the ability to break planets via unleashing his energy. And it was still stated that sentry along with photon's energy emission was enough to shred multiple planets. And they were still holding back.
Although the entire argument is irrelevant, as it been shown sentry can harm hulk, even when not in a right mental state and holding back.
He must have been grabbing it since he used it to reach him up there in the sky...
Ah thanks, after seeing that, i conclude that hulk was merely just leaping.
- My points still stand, Sentry doesn't have the durability and strength to hang around Hulk.
- Hulk will tag him several times which will be Sentry's downfall.
- It is a matter of time, Sentry would only serve as a diversion which will be overpowered eventually.
- Hulk beats Sentry into unconsciousness and helps Superman.
- My point stands as-well, Sentry indeed has enuogh durability to tank a few hits from hulk and avoid th majority via speed and counter using his insane energy emmision
- Even if hulk manages to hit him once or twice, sentry still has too much speed to allow hulk to hit him that much, and again he can go from far away and proceede to unleashe a barrage of energy blasts.
- I disagree, while hulk possess good regen and durability, itts only a matter of time until he's worn down and destroyed
- Sentry obliterates hulk and helps goku
@nighthunder: Ah after a thousand years later... He resurged from the ashes. Anyway, let's continue this debate.
I think this is a bit untrue as Sentry CAN harm hulk weather it be energy emission, molecule manip or physical prowess...speaking of matter manipulation
You haven't shown anything to suggest you can harm Hulk, i showed you planetary energy projection on panel, i've addressed Matter Manipulation and you still need to show me why Sentry will harm Hulk, but i'll counter your points later on.
The problem with your instance, something you're seemingly failing to see is the fact Sentry isn't voided out in that instance, but tapped into his void side. The black eyes are rather self-explanatory and isn't too hard to understand. There's tangible proof, instances, issues, script citations and consistent corroboration by my part that Sentry with black eyes is either controlled by Void or is tapping into his void side. That means unless you show me Sentry using Matter Manipulation, not to mention in that super high scale without tapping into his Void side, your tactic doesn't really hold much as it's against the rules.
I believe i said that in response to you saying sentry's speed feets were travel speed feats. Regardless, sentry indeed has more strength than either iron man or the 100+ tonner. Not only that, strength isn't sentry's only weapon. as i showed in my previous rebuttal.
You're missing the point, Grey Hulk is by far, Hulk's weakest incarnation, he's barely a 70-80 toner when enraged and he doesn't become stronger as fast as Hulk's other incarnations, let alone the Green Scar who has actually tapped into his rage skipping insane amounts of tons in his potential, like he did in Incredible Hulks #632, when seemingly turning immensely more powerful than your regular Hulk freshly transformed...
Literally in 1 page he managed to turn strong enough to generate quite a decent amount of energy projection, obviously this means his achieving quite high levels of angers. It worths to note, this is NOT World Breaker Hulk yet.
So, why if Grey Hulk, who is lightyears weaker than the Green Scar can overpower 2 guys that exceeded him in strength in that moment just with his inertia, why would Hulk's strongest incarnation present any trouble against Sentry, in the physical department... A department you're still need to showcase.
Do you have any proof Morgan took no notice of sentry going behind her from the front?
Do you have proof she did? Because everything in that scan points out she didn't noticed Sentry in the first place, not that it matter since Morgan does not have the same reflexes and brain attributes Hulk posses.
I will say Hulk has impressive durability but saying sentry can't even phase or move him is absolutely ridiculous.
I didn't say Sentry won't phase Hulk, i said he wont do it in a significant way, say, actually getting an upperhand on Hulk.
And keep in mind the entire fight was while sentry was weakened and in a mentally unstable state. And as we all know, sentry's mental state affects sentries abilities.
By the same token Hulk was pulling his hits during the entire war, it was stated at least 3 times by Cho's calculations ultimately corroborated in Hulk vs. Hercules...
I've really done by best from keeping myself from using the instance since it involves way too much plot from both sides to come up with a decent, irrefutable argument about it. Sentry's wasn't mentally stable, but we don't know to what degree that affects his powers, we don't even know if Emma explaining this meant his powers may be released too abruptly or they will slowly fade away. But Hulk was pulling his hits as well, so we really didn't see what Hulk was capable of doing in that saga, not to mention, he actually has WAY greater feats than World War Hulk in Planet Hulk while weakened. Just sayin'
I never conceded to hulk tagging sentry, i merely stated " if" hulk manages to hit him once or twice. And as for his fight with sentry, again he was in a weakened and mentally unstate state. As for durability, i've already posted scans
Giving Hulk the possible scenario of tagging Sentry is already conceding on the fact it may happen, once or twice is way too petty and probably an underestimation from your part... Hulk has been tagging speedsters several times by predicting them. Not only "blitzing" implies Sentry will need to overpower Hulk's inertia and bypass his durability but more importantly, engage in physical combat with him, enter inside his range of attack, which wont prove very wise if you ask me. Sentry has NO feats suggesting he has blitzed and projecting planet-sized energy while fighting at high speed... Hell, im still waiting for this speed blitzing feats you're trying to apply for your tactic since in all honesty, i've hardly ever seen Sentry doing such thing.
As for the re-usage of the World War Hulk instance, for the 4th time, i wouldn't use the instance if i were you. How do you know Sentry was "that weakened"... I understand he was mentally unstable, but that doesn't necessarily means he was "greatly/significantly weakened", that's of course not mentioning his energy projection was greater than all the times before as implied by Ben and Reed when looking at him... It was so great Manhattan was still burning days after the event...
As for the durability, what scans have you posted? The only thing you've shown is Sentry possibly regenerating from a Nuke and/or somehow tanking it when Hulk in his 2nd weakest incarnation was already delivering Nuke-like punches. So what are you implying? That 1 punch from Hulk will stagger Sentry in place to deliver several blows on his face like he did to Xemnu the Living Titan in Marvel Feature #3?
Sorry for the resolution, that's the best i could do. Anyway, what's stopping Hulk from doing this taking into account the only durability feat you've presented has been at best, tanking a nuke, while Hulk's punches as Professor Hulk are compared to nukes. A barrage of this would do the trick easily... Let alone a barrage of Green Scar's punches.
Fair Enough, however keep in mind Sentry was allowing hulk to hit him and wanted to be hit. This means he wasn't trying to resist the attack and thus more damage was inflicted on him.
This doesn't make sense... Whether you're durable or you're not, even if you allow yourself to get hit you can't willingly diminish your durability to take extra damage. By the same token, Hulk could've been doing the same the entire arc as he was holding back. You really don't have proof to prove Sentry can do that, nor was he doing that. So let's leave it at that.
What makes you assume his entire body was obliterated and then reformed? Also You realize that either way this is a feat for sentry right? If he was obliterated and reformed its a regeneration feat, if not, then durability feat.
I came to realize it must be a regeneration feat just by the fact Sentry took way too long to come back. If he would've shrug off the nuke as you're implying, Sentry would've come WAY earlier, the fact that he didn't makes me think he regenerated in that period of time for him to come back. That being said, im not sure about the degree of damage he took, but if anything, taking the slightest of damage from it doesn't help Sentry at all against someone who can replicate such force on regular basis.
So, you mean to say that sentry cannot harm hulk through use of matter manipulation and or energy blasts? I've already explained how he can harm hulk through energy waves. Secondly, How are sentry's punches not going to harm him in the slightest? And again, i posted evidence of sentry's punches hurting hulk.
Im positive you can't use Matter Manipulation, and i said Sentry wont be able to harm Hulk significantly if he's already tanking huge beams of energy projection from a guy that easily can project planet-sized energy beams with catastrophic results. What energy waves? I fail to see why your instance is more reliable than mine if planets are not being destroyed on panel, which left the instance as a mere statement while mine has on-panel proof that he actually was obliterating a planet... Let alone a planet the size of mars as shown in Incredible Hulks #614...
As for your punches... Unless you show me Sentry generating anything close to this punch, you're NOT phasing the Green Scar as shown in Incredible Hulk #611...
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So Hulk basically took a 100 trillion ton punch to the chest, flew a few miles and recovered almost instantly, not only he didn't look "that" harmed at all, but the fact he dodge Skaar's attack, grabbed him and even controlled himself from crushing his head like an egg means he wasn't really that bothered from the punch. What makes this feat even cooler is the fact, that if we see it in a scientific way, Hulk basically shrugged off the Chicxulub Asteroid responsible from extinguishing the dinosaurs 66 million years ago since both things generated 100 trillion tons of force...
This information comes from LiveScience.com
To give you a better picture about this, let me utilize my all time favorite "Ground Zero" by Google to picture what phenomena Hulk took in his chest "barely" bothered...
So in simple words, Hulk shrugged off a continent-sized attack. Now im going to approach the real reason as to why you shouldn't make so much emphasis in World War Hulk saga. Hulk got exponentially stronger after the saga, literally, the guy was a stomping machine and things short of a Skyfather gave him little to no trouble. Now, what is your argument for Sentry harming Hulk physically? Im just going to assume you have none.
Who said he couldn't teleport short distances? He was able to teleport from an explosion.
Again, missing the point. Sentry has NO feats of combat teleportation. Following me now?
Hulk was sent flying and looked almost ko'd until he got up. Sentry on the other hand merely stood there, making a face. I fail to see how getting thrown is more impressive than shrugging it off. Distance shouldn't mean anything.
Distance actually means something... C'mon, don't be difficult. Is already well known sound loses strength the farthest the distance it travels. It's a mediums theory's basic. And i only showed Hulk tanking that whisper and being KO'd for literally seconds. I could use Skrull-Bolt who was screaming in Hulk's face and he was "barely" bothered but it's irrelevant since Hulk punches are absolutely greater than Black Bolt's whisper.
Ah, your basing your argument solely upon the assumption that this fight is entirely physical? If so, you are wrong, sentry is going to be utilizing every one of his abilities not just his fists. Most importantly, his energy emission. Moreover, If Sentry could use them against blasts, its safe to assume he could against physical hits. As for the Axe;s power
No at all mate, im just delivering the fact you wont be "blitzing" anybody here. Unless you show me Sentry using "every one" of his abilities, he's not doing it. Most importantly, you're basing your whole argument in 1 energy projection feat that doesn't even have on-panel proof about how much he was generating rather than a statement, contrary to my instance which has been addressed graciously. About the force fields, it's not that simple. Unless you show me him using those force fields for multiple types of attacks, i could easily assume they're perfectly attuned for energy projection attacks alone. As for the Axe, i know its power, but he didn't use the axe in that scan, but his fist, most likely a power of cosmic beam. That being said, im still waiting for the scan of Sentry stopping Terrax's axe, odd you haven't posted it yet, if anything, im ready to deliver it.
Aha, no. Your acting as if sentry isn't capable of dodging or countering, and instead treating him as-if one hit will make him stagger and allow hulk to proceed and beat on him. First of all, even in their previous fights, Nothing like that happened, more presently, hulks reactions are slow compared to sentry, and should he land a hit, sentry can just as easily retaliate with energy blasts or his own hits. Or simple fly up in the air, and rain planetary level energy blasts down at hulk. And if he tries leaping up and smashing sentry back down, he has more than enough speed to dodge. Secondly, Sentry is leagues above quick silver or blue.
Nope, im acting like Hulk is too much and with simple punches he'll be able to affect Sentry WAY too much, allowing him to land more and more punches on him. He may dodge punches, but eventually, Hulk will beat him into a pulp nonetheless. Hulk has reacted to Silver Surfer twice while he was traveling as a ball of energy. That being said, you seemingly ignored my argument about Hulk's calculating ability. The fists are already addressed, they're not phasing Hulk.
That strategy sounds incredibly out of character let alone lacking substantial evidence to prove the magnitude of the attacks. Im not so sure about Sentry being "leagues above" them as far as combat speed goes. Unless you can show me otherwise, something i've been waiting since the very start of this CaV :)
I've already proven that molecule manip is a fundamental part of sentrys arsenal through the previous scans. This is stated by him himself, so this whole thing is moot.
It is not. 1 scan i've delivered way too many times. The fact that he "just learned" he could use Matter Manipulation is beyond me, i don't know how "just learning" he could use that ability transfers to Sentry using it in-character. Moreover, the fact that only Void has shown to use this ability and Sentry having black eyes already seals the deal about it. You can't use the ability unless you refute the very obvious fact it comes from tapping into his Voided side, which is against the rules.
That arguments irrelevant as it stats " worlds" not planet, implying that they both are capable of emitting energy of shredding at-least a planet. Moreover, their both holding back
Exactly... It only states :/. It doesn't hold much and i think i mentioned this enough times in this rebuttal.
That was't captain americas statements, as in the bottom text box it says, " Captain america knows they actually still hold back." And im not sure if captain america is known for speaking in third person.
In this one i will need to concede. I have no idea what i was thinking when i thought it was Captain America speaking. But IIRC, i think it was Genis-Vell narrating, i could be wrong though. Not that it matters since whether it was a character or the writer is inconsequential to what Sentry did and what he's capable of.
While again, impressive, it only showcases that hulks heat resistance is greater than sentrys not that he has high energy projection resistance.
I wonder how exactly does Sentry energy projection manifests... What's your explanation about how Sentry's energy projection will affect Hulk?
So, he busted a single planet through a chain reaction process? This is impressive but it doesn't compare to having the power to bust multiple planets. Moreover, it seems as if he was unleashing all his power while doing so whilst sentry was holding back in said instance. Lastly, the planet feat didn't look as if he were using direct blasts. Moreover just cuasing the planet to break apart by unleashing his power
No... He was making the planet collapse into itself through sheer Old Power.
What power is this? Power you've been speculating about the whole thread with no tangible proof about it.
He wasn't unleashing all his power since he didn't turned into stone. When Old Power users exert themselves in the usage of it, they tend to turn in stone-like beings ultimately consumed by the planet they're on... Like Skaar did when he literally stopped the planet from collapsing through Old Power as well in Incredible Hulks #616...
Caeira died the same way, and it had the same process all around too in Planet Hulk. So, Hiro-Kala was doing it quite easily without exerting himself. Him attacking Skaar directly or not is inconsequential to what he did to Hulk, which actually was attacked directly, at point blank, from an enraged Hiro-Kala. So what's your point again?
Again, his unleashed powre was simply breaking apart the planet, not clear cut destroying it.
This is hypocrisy... Sentry wasn't doing ANYTHING close to what Hiro-Kala showed on-panel. yet you're trying to debunk my feat just because by your interpretation he wasn't "destroying" the planet but "breaking it apart" even though both terms come to the same end? Weak argument mate.
Although its moot opint since yes it obvious he has the ability to break planets via unleashing his energy. And it was still stated that sentry along with photon's energy emission was enough to shred multiple planets. And they were still holding back.
Exactly, as i said earlier, it was only stated. Statements<<<<<<<<<<<<On-Panel Proof.
Ah thanks, after seeing that, i conclude that hulk was merely just leaping.
Because you know, Hulk always leaps while mimicking the action of grabbing energy as well as being able to surf inside a tornado of energy projection without having energy manipulation. Sounds legit ;)
My point stands as-well, Sentry indeed has enuogh durability to tank a few hits from hulk and avoid th majority via speed and counter using his insane energy emmision
Even if hulk manages to hit him once or twice, sentry still has too much speed to allow hulk to hit him that much, and again he can go from far away and proceede to unleashe a barrage of energy blasts.
I disagree, while hulk possess good regen and durability, itts only a matter of time until he's worn down and destroyed
Sentry obliterates hulk and helps goku
- Not at all mate. Your durability feat falls short to what Hulk is capable of releasing... I haven't even arrived to WBH yet. Speed? Granted, Sentry has a speed edge, but that will only take him so far. Waiting on energy emission.
- Once or Twice? No. WAY more times than that. The fact that you haven't shown Sentry being able to blitz him the way you're suggesting, because you know, to blitz, you have to actually phase significantly the target or else it's meaningless as he could react and grab/hold/punch you. How... How is he releasing that energy? Can he direct that energy? Because even the scan you're trying to blow out of proportion doesn't show Sentry controlling that energy rather than a AoE attack.
- This is a bit funny and somehow ridiculous. First of all, you don't wore out Hulk, prolonged fights will only makes things worst for you. Is whether beat him off the bat or last till he's way too much for you.
- Obliterates? Now that's a very confident statement when you're missing quite a bit of evidence to support it. Not exactly my case.
To summarize...
- Hulk Smash with what i've shown.
- Hulk Smash even harder with what i haven't shown yet.
Well you’ve really heated things up with this confident and well laid out reply. But this is where I’m cutting loose too and this next rebuttal of mine shall go into further detail demonstrating why a ‘Super Saiyan’ won’t be a much for a Superman at the end of the day. Let's continue with this debate at long, long last @pope052 (Quoting your reply and cutting out the bits has proven to be a bit too difficult so the bolded parts will be your posts for the record.
From what you've shown me so far in both your opening and rebuttal posts, Superman truly has not demonstrated anything at all that permits you to make the claim of him being able to keep up with Goku in terms of Combat Speed in battle.
I have a ton of feats from Goku's early Kid/Teen stages in Dragon-Ball that match or exceed what Superman has shown altogether. Let alone trying to compare Superman to a Post-King Kai Training Saiyan-Saga Goku, Namek Saga and don't even get started on the levels of Super Saiyan (SSJ3 being his fastest speed, which is over four-hundred times faster than his Namek Saga speed, which already trumps Superman's speed to begin with).
So nothing in my two opening posts has shown Superman being able to keep up with Goku? Hypersonic combat speed that sets off multiple sonic booms, speeding up to compensate for a temporal weapon that was slowing him down, moving faster than the eye can follow or mere syllables can be uttered not to mention the fact I still have two trump cards to play in the combat speed area? Let’s just say you may regret making that comment once I get onto combat speed and demonstrate that Superman has ways of levelling the speed issue. So you’ll be in a sticky situation trying to justify this part of your comment my friend ;)
I haven't seen much of Superman's strategic thinking used inengaged combat but i'll wait until you provide your case. Even so, I doubt Clark's strategic mind could exceed Goku's instinctive Saiyan genius-level combatant mind and seemingly instant adaptability to any unknown technique thrown at him.
Well you’ve called my bluff here. I really hope you’re not implying that Superman doesn’t fight smart when that could not be less true. That would imply a lack of understanding in relation to Superman’s strategic mindset, something I shall clarify for you here. Superman utilises brawn and brains in combat scenarios, especially when going up against powerful foes. There are plenty of examples I can draw on to support Superman’s strategy in combat but for now, I’ll keep things simple.
Following on from this, I can neatly fit in my more detailed post on Superman’s versatility and how much more effective and resourceful Superman’s versatility is compared to Goku’s. I said I’d get into Superman’s versatility and this is it.
Now what was that you were saying about highly doubting that Superman isn’t as versatile as Goku? Because Goku hardly ever uses telekinetic explosions nor Ki Barriers and Ki Sensing is matched by Superman’s total vision of the entire visual spectrum and his super hearing. The only versatile technique Goku has that could give Superman some difficulty is his Instant Transmission teleportation.
In the first feat you provided, the force of Superman's punch shattered the moon to mere shards but clearly Superman was knocked back and felt the force of how hard he had hit. To me, he looks KO'd but i'll need to see what happens on the following page before I can think otherwise.
Then again, I only saw the initial effect of Superman's punch, but I didn't see the moon bethoroughly destroyed, I think later in this post you state it's only half.
In the second feat, I acknowledge that Superman was approaching light-speed but why would he have needed to take an acceleration build-up in the first place? My initial thought, is that Superman couldn't accomplish a complete moon-shattering punch unless travelling at a high-speed.
This applies to my case above, that Superman needs to achieve a certain speed to completely destroy a moon.
I know that you could prove me wrong on this one, but I haven't seen an entire moon being destroyed by Superman, except of course the Shadow Moon feat which looks more bad than good on Superman's part.
To conclude this aspect of the argument, the only feat that i've seen Superman completely bust a moon is the second feat you provided that of which Superman needed to take a speed build-up and KO'd himself in the process.
In the first feat, Superman wasn’t KOed by the force of his moon busting punch. He was flashing back to when he was blasted by Imperiex’s energy beam and was KOed by said blast. I know it looks like Superman is getting KOed in his moon busting punch but it’s a flashback sequence by the writer to events that took place earlier in the storyline to contrast the Black Racer with the death that’s taken place already. And you incorrectly misquoted me, I argued that the first moon busting punch destroyed over half the moon, at least two thirds but for ease of calculation, I would downgrade it to half. Check back if you think I’m bluffing. As for the second feat, your initial thought is mistaken in that the context of the feat clearly shows the moon was already travelling at hundreds of thousands of kilometres towards Earth so Superman needed to use superspeed to catch up with it and destroy it in the process. My previous arguments show that Superman can easily moon bust in the other two scans by the ease of which he damaged or split the other two moons. Couple that with Superman still being able to jeopardise the moon’s orbit whilst weakened by Kryptonite poisoning and I can reject your conclusion whilst positing my own that Superman has shown what it takes to easily be a moon buster in striking power.
Impressive, alright i'll concede to the fact that Mongul has some comparable durability to Superman (even though i'm merely taking your word for it).
Now, i'll bring up a similar feat on Goku's part:
Recoome made a mockery of Vegeta throughout their battle. He was taking all of the damage that Vegeta could dish out (both blunt force, and energy based attacks) in previous pages along with handily beating Gohan and Krillin to add to that.
Here, Goku one-shots him in a blitz:
Just to prove that it was indeed a one-punch, KO:
I could showcase Recoome's durability if you'd like, however it is rather lengthy as i'd just be providing entire issues of scans which is unnecessary.
I guessed you’d bring this feat up as Goku’s claim of one shotting an opponent. A solid analysis and though I can nit pick at this planet busting claim as well as point out that Vegeta and Recoome seemed fairly close in power with Recoome being able to take more punishment than Vegeta allowing him to take the win, I’ll instead bring up another one shot feat from Superman.
Though this is a detailed reply, you’ve done exactly as I thought you would as a DBZ debater. That is, gone straight for the Ki Control argument. First, let me counter your example. How is Buu’s running through the city an act of out of control Ki? It’s clearly a physical showing based on his physical movements causing that destruction, not Buu’s Ki manipulation or Ki energy attacks. Buu isn’t using energy based Ki manipulation in that scan. Already, your first example is a flawed first premise to base your argument on. Next, it’s all well and good to use the logic of focused Ki attacks with certain examples such as Goku’s Kamehameha on Raditz but this type of logic comes with a particularly obvious flaw. The so called ‘focused’ attacks lack the damage output that is so often proposed by DBZ debaters and therein lies the problem of your claim. All you’ve proven is that the attacks are focused, not that they are capable of anywhere near the level of energy projection destruction you make them to be outside of what the feats show. Nowhere is this more apparent than with Goku’s ‘Planet Busting’ Instant Transmission Kamehameha. When the claim is made that Goku’s attack can destroy the planet, it can only be substantiated if there is any hint that the attack is a planet busting one. Meaning that Goku should have had to fire that beam out into space to get rid of the planet busting attack or that there's a hint Goku's attack is capable of such an output. Yet Goku fires his Ki attack directly at the ground and what happens? The blast radius coupled with the damage output doesn’t reach anywhere near the levels of your unsubstantiated planet busting claim. Thus, whilst you have proved that Goku is a master at controlling his Ki, you once again cannot prove that Goku can planet bust with the two actual feats you’ve shown for him ‘planet busting’ with a Kamehameha not reaching nearly that level of energy output. But I can prove that Superman can tank planet busting+ attacks thus safeguarding my argument even if your premise is true so either way, your argument holds less force here.
Instead of going after the inner logic and on panel demonstrations of your Ki attack feats, I’m going about this a different way. Vegeta actually has a credible feat, his Final Flash that I accept could count as a planet busting attack. Not that it’d take out Superman just like Goku’s best Ki attacks but it’s a good feat nonetheless. However, let’s break the stipulations of Vegeta’s other Final Flash feat shall we? Vegeta needed a massive charge up time for the attack to be as powerful as it was. Regardless of whether you look at the original anime or Kai or the manga, it’s clear Vegeta’s Final Flash took ages to charge up. Secondly, Vegeta had to goad Cell into staying right where he was so that he could accurately fire the blast at Cell. And finally, Cell only realised the power of the attack just before the blast hit him thus meaning the Final Flash scored a good hit on Cell destroying a chunk of his body. The same applies to Goku’s ‘Planet Busting’ (given my analysis in my last post) Kamehameha.
- Again, Goku needed a huge charge up time for his attack
- Cell thought he was bluffing at first only to realise Goku meant to go through with it
- And Goku got the element of surprise with Instant Transmission.
Now let’s see how this is relevant to Superman.
- First, Superman isn’t going to give Goku enough time to charge his Ki attack as powerfully as it needs to be to hurt him. As soon as Goku utters “Ka” and begins to charge his attack, Superman’s going to see Goku charging an energy attack and instantly close the distance, thus preventing Goku from charging the attack enough to seriously hurt him.
- Secondly, Superman is not an arrogant, proud or brash fighter in the slightest unlike some characters in DBZ. He’s not going to stand around and willingly take a planet busting attack if he can prevent it from happening.
- Finally, even if Goku gets the surprise on Superman with an Instant Transmission Kamehameha, I’ve shown Superman’s vastly superior durability shrugging off actual planet busting attacks that surpass what Goku can do on panel.
Your points aren’t the only ones that add up, mine are logically coherent and make plenty of sense with the qualification to support them. So it’s very clear that even if these characters can bust planets easily, Superman is too fast to properly let Goku charge up such an attack and even if Goku does fire an attack, he can tank the best of what Goku can throw out. So in the words of Lex Luthor, opposing this position is just plain
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Forgive the bluntness of this reply but…so what? Your example doesn’t show how Frieza using the last of his Ki on Goku or Frieza’s planet busting durability has any relation whatsoever to the point I was making about Ki manipulation being the main reason why Frieza deflected that attack. It’s actually kind of simple to counter this point. All DBZ characters’ powers come from Ki Manipulation correct? Of course and this includes being able to project their own Ki attacks as well as deflect their opponents’ Ki blasts. Again this is a valid categorisation of how DBZ characters use their Ki attacks. Finally, to use your own arguments against you, your quote from earlier undermines your second point entirely. "There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”.Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important."-We Asked Akira Toriyama! 2013 (First question under the "World Section")
Straight from the author’s mouth, Ki control is what allows these characters to use energy based attacks. If it were a case of physical power, by that same logic, I could claim that Superman or the Hulk could deflect Goku’s Ki attacks since they’re physically superior to Goku, let alone Frieza in raw physical stats even though they can’t manipulate Ki energy. Now does that argument hold up? Of course not and it doesn’t apply to Frieza either. Frieza can manipulate Ki as his appearances undoubtedly prove and this is what allowed him to deflect Vegeta’s attack. So there’s your point entirely countered right back at you, it’s entirely down to Ki Manipulation, not physical stats in this matter.
No, no, no. You misinterpreted my explanation to this case, sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I merely meant, that Goku could do internal damage to Frieza with one punch that cracked through Frieza's Durability, which is impressive considering everything else Frieza had tanked.
That still doesn’t change the fact you used the comparison between Frieza tanking a planet and SSJ Goku being able to hurt him as a legitimate means of Goku’s striking power when my argument demonstrated that the correlation between blunt force trauma and energy projection attacks is entirely different.
I didn't say SSJ Goku was a planetary level striker, that's a SSJ3 Goku's job. Although, you did interpret one aspect of this argument just fine, and that was "SSJ Goku can harm Superman". Which is true, yes he can considering the harm he did to Frieza, one-shotting Recoome (with his Oozaru Level Durability) and if I were to go back and take every single one of Goku's striking feats before that, I can prove that he does indeed back enough force with his punches sufficient to cause Superman pain.
Granted, Superman would hit harder than a SSJ Goku and would definitely not be caused great deals of pain from a SSJ Goku by feats but that's why Goku has SSJ2 to match Superman's striking power, and then SSJ3 to exceed Superman's striking power.
If I were to go back and show you every foe Superman has overcome in battle, this could just be scan dumping on my part. The striking feats Superman has displayed Pre Flashpoint demonstrate that Goku would take a large amount of damage from the vastly heavier hitter that is Superman without the level of durability required to fully shrug off these blows. This deals with your faulty presentation of your own feats as being taken with certain predications to suit your case rather than presenting the feat for what it is.
In regards to your third "Moon-Busting" feat, as far as I know Superman was flying at several times the speed of light in deep space, as he heard the news of Lex Luthor becoming president:
Not to mention, it was only a split in the middle of the Moon and he was flying at a tremendous speed. That's why he wasn't fatigued, as he only put a clean hole through it and Superman had a great speed build-up.
In regards to your moon busting counter, you do show the context I already knew that Superman was out in space already but you don’t prove that he was flying at multiple times the speed of light. He just went to take his frustration out on that moon after hearing that Lex became President. He may well have been within Earth’s Solar system confines. And once again, it is absolutely clear that Superman’s build up of speed is what KOed him, not the moon busting punch itself. When compared with the other easy moon busting feats Superman has performed from effortlessly splitting a moon to threatening the moon’s orbit even whilst weakened by kryptonite poisoning, it is crystal clear how easily he can perform these feats. To deny this is to be blind to the empirical evidence I have provided in favour of your own assumptions.
Really Pope? This is the first time I’ve been bothered by sheer disbelief in something you’ve posted thus far. To stick behind these rather high end calculations and scaling up of Goku’s striking power would mean you would need to provide nearly undisputable evidence of your claim and that’s gonna be hard to manage going up against me, I assure you. I agreed to let you have power scaling for this debate and that I’d keep the critiques to a minimum but I didn’t say I’d agree to premises that, if accepted, would make Goku seem godlike in comparison to Superman without strong enough supporting evidence. Again, your post displays the trademark error that DBZ debaters fall into which is to make Goku seem more powerful than he is based on power scaling. With that logic, I could accept the feat that based on what Superman says, he can shatter planetsor fly to the sun and back in a minute just because Batman says he can. This is the underlying problem behind your case. That’s why I have trouble accepting the credibility of what you’re saying. Look try not to take this too much the wrong way, you’ve proven yourself to be a very respectable debater in my opinion and it has been a real challenge debating you on this match up when you’ve brought real feats into play. But in a form of logic as sketchy and vague as power scaling, even the best debaters will have problems justifying their claims. That's why your case is problematic and not based on the strong evidence I have in my corner to counter your assertions.
- Superman only entirely destroyed a Moon in the Shadow Moon feat, which he needed to exert himself and was KO'd in the process.
- In Saturn's Moon feat, he was already flying at a great speed and didn't even destroy the whole moon, only split a hole through it.
- In the final feat of him standing still, I didn't even see how much of the moon he destroyed (according to you it was about half), and he didn't look lucid afterwards either.
- It was the light speed charge that KOed Superman.
- Still better than most of what Goku has done on panel.
- Once again you misquote me. I specifically said that Superman’s striking impact affected at least two thirds of the moon but for ease of calculation I downgraded it to half. I’m the one who doesn’t account for variables within the feats? When did you present undisputable evidence for Goku’s planet busting striking power and energy projection? It’s not as if power scaling is a universally accepted method of measuring DBZ power levels. People still disagree about it today and I do sort of agree with Death Battle when they said that we cannot judge Goku’s power based on what other characters showed they can do. AKA power scaling. Your applications of power scaling in our debate thus far have already had their problems as my counter analysis has shown. Only Goku’s SSJ3 Battle of Gods striking feat is within Superman’s striking range and relying on this one feat merely demonstrates that you are guilty of highballing Goku’s punching power within a specific form in this debate. And highballing one feat doesn’t beat a consistent myriad of showings I have to offer.
Here is yet another testament to Superman’s superior striking power since you’re not impressed by my much more consistent striking feats than your own. I’ve shown Stewart’s on panel planet busting durability and I can support that assertion with Kyle effortlessly tanking his own planet busting attack. Here, here and here. Yet I have shown Superman’s striking force overpower John’s willpower shield with his punch. That is another credible striking feat in Superman’s corner.
- Like I said, I agree that Superman is highly above Goku in physical strength and that Goku is not putting Superman down with brute force alone. However, Goku does not engage with physical strength in combat most if not all of the time other than that "arm-locking" instance with Cell. I have showcased as to why Goku will harm Superman with his striking power and I haven't seen anybody (who has harmed Superman with physical force) surpass a Super Saiyan 3 tier striking standard.
- Punching someone through the Earth, is impressive i'll give Superman/Bizarro that. However, it is not as impressive as actually punching through the Earth. Say for example, i'm strong enough to punch you through a wall, the force of my punch combined with your body's mass flying through the wall is not as good as punching through the wall yourself. That's why the Bizarro punch isn't necessarily up to Goku's standard.
- Darkseid (a non jobbing one I might add), Doomsday, a godlike being and the Claw of Horus which draws power from the magnetic core of the Earth essentially hitting its target with the force of a planet. Those hit harder than Goku with on panel corroboration for their striking power. Try again with something more concrete next time instead of blowing one feat out of proportion.
- Bizarro has tossed celestial bodies together and proven to be the physical equal of Superman on numerous occasions. Besides, Bizarro’s punch performed both the hitting through the wall and the necessary force of being able to punch through the wall to use the examples of your own analogy against you.
See my post debunking your so called 'legitimacy of Ki control' as well as asserting the fact that focusing Ki does not equal destructive output. Your counters to Namek Saga Goku base Goku being a planet buster have already been shown to not hold up to my own arguments presented given my breakdown and critique of your own unsubstantial points so I'm afraid these points are now moot. Only Frieza’s actual planet busting feat makes him a planet buster, not simple statements that have been taken by you to make credible arguments. As I have dealt with already in my post, the blatant error in your post is trying to make Goku’s energy projection into something it’s not to contend with Superman’s on panel feats. And at the end of the day, feats>statements on the battle forums. That’s the simple fact of this debate. If I want to show Superman surviving a planet busting attack, I can do so. In order to show that Goku can planet bust, you have to say “Well here’s Frieza destroying a planet and here’s Goku overpowering him which means in scan C, Goku can planet bust” even though the blast radious is pitifully below planet busting. The internal logic of that is sketchy and unclear at best, solely reliant on taking feats and scaling them up to illogical levels to suit one’s argument.
Superman surviving two planets colliding is an impressive durability feat, it does not classify as a "planet-busting" feat as the planets were still intact the following page after that, they merely merged together.
When people showcase this feat like it's a supposed planet-buster, they always ironically leave out the aftermath. It's an impressive durability feat regardless, but does not certify as a planet-buster as no planet actually was destroyed in the process.
To deal with your double planet counter, you fail to see the obvious context that New Genesis and Apokolips were obliterated in the explosion that made the 5th World as a result. It is a planet busting feat given the destroyed planets in the process as well as the force of two planets colliding being endured by Superman and is mostly beyond Goku’s on panel Ki energy feats. I’ll save my durability trump cards for later because I want to see how you handle my earlier posts on Goku’s Ki energy projection.
Besides even if Goku couldn't truly tank a planetary explosion, that is fortunate for me in this debate though as Superman has nothing that can omit the power of a planet-buster that Goku has to worry about like before.
Finally for the record, Goku held back a Super-Nova like Ki Attack from Bills (at 70% power), as a mere Super Saiyan:
That is enough to support my claim that Goku could have easily pushed back or deflected Kid Buu's Ki Blast that destroyed the Earth. Considering how Goku was also worn out after fighting Bills, that furthers my case as to why planetary explosions being supposed bypassers to Goku's durability are not necessarily valid.
Unfortunately, you have no solid proof that Goku is anything beyond a planetary buster in durability given his showings with actual planet busting attacks whereas I have proof of my claims that Superman is far beyond planet busting in durability. Now for the video. I’m not gonna lie or hold my words, this is the biggest error and mistake you’ve made in your post thus far. It seriously hampers the weight of your point and your entire position on Goku’s abilities. Don’t get me wrong, this debate has been incredibly challenging and practically all the other arguments you present have required some of the most inventive counters I can think of. But why am I being very harsh now? Well it’s because I’ve seen this video a couple of times before and when I saw you post it as evidence, this point immediately crept into mind. Skip to 9:08 to see where you’ve gone totally and utterly wrong but for argument’s sake, here’s Bills’ quote that destroys any shred of credibility your video was meant to have: “It seems that while you were fighting as a god, you’ve absorbed that world into your body. That’s why when you transformed back, your powers didn’t decrease drastically.” I mean, checking the full context of a feat is basic stuff and you miss an outright, clear as day statement like that? It is absolutely evident that Goku is still tapping into the power of a Super Saiyan God. A weakened and lesser power, it’s true, but he’s still using that level of power in his fight with Bills. Do you honestly think that Goku as a mere Super Saiyan could do any better against Bills than when he was a SSJ3 when he got one hit KOed? We have a confirmed statement that Goku’s powers did not decrease drastically when he came out of the Super Saiyan God form. Thus, he was still able to contend with Bills briefly as a Super Saiyan God, not as an ordinary Super Saiyan rendering this part of your argument utterly irrelevant.
However what makes this feat difficult for you to quantify in regard to this specific fight is that Superman's durability in space is higher than his durability on Earth and that is convenient for Goku in this battle. Also for the record Goku (and all Saiyans/Half-Blood Saiyans)can survive in space (see the above video, he and Bills took the battle into space).
This also conveniently deals with your breathing in space point since the presence of Goku’s Super Saiyan God powers invalidates any possibility that it was Goku’s natural Saiyan biology that allowed him to breath in space. And as per the rules of the debate, no Super Saiyan God feats are allowed. Without the SSJG form, Goku has been nearly drowned by Frieza and has had to escape two planet busting attacks since even if we grant your premise that he can withstand a planet busting attack, there’s no proof Goku doesn’t need oxygen. In contrast, Superman’s stamina allows him to survive without food, water, oxygen or even long periods of rest as long as he’s absorbing yellow solar radiation. And Goku’s stamina is definitely not up to scratch since his fights don’t last all that long when we look at them. I’ve seen almost every DBZ fight and the longest last in-between an hour to two hours at most (and that’s with all the staring, talking and time wasting of the anime.)Even if the manga is shorter, more concise and better paced, this only shows the clear stamina limit DBZ characters have in engaging at full power for extended periods of time. And Superman’s stamina limit will definitely outlast Goku’s in battle. This will be followed up later with an argument I wanted to put in this post but decided against due to its length already.
This scan is a perfect reply to your statement above, and popped into my head as my eyes were scanning across your words. I'm glad those weren't Superman's best durability feats, because if they were Goku would have made short work of him already ;P.
If you’re going to make the claim that Goku can make short work of Superman, you need to be able back it up. And so far, no evidence or arguments from your side definitively prove Goku is vastly above Superman since I've been able to strip your posts apart and provide a more critical and logical analysis of your own feats and arguments demonstrating how they're not all they're cracked up to be in the slightest.
Setting off multiple Sonic-Booms does not make it Hyper-Sonic speed. As we all may or may not know, Sonic-Booms are created when an object breaks the sound barrier. That scan merely puts Superman at M (Massively) Super-Sonic+ Combat Speed, which is even below Kid Goku's standard.
Also the baby feat was not a combat instance, as we has flying the baby away before it exploded within a span of a nanosecond, which does not classify as a fighting instance.
Now, to move onto your rather.. inadequate Combat Speed feats for Superman, and I certainly do not agree that Superman is above Dragon-Ball Goku's speed at all for that matter. As my following replies to your feats and feats of my own will prove just that:
So we’re back to square one again on this hypersonic combat speed feat are we? Look Superman is clearly setting off multiple sonic booms in that scan so he’s only massively super sonic in the very least and still squarely placed within the hypersonic range given the number of sonic booms he’s set off. As for the baby feat, in the first panel there’s a power suit wearing guy charging towards the baby and Superman zooming off to snatch the baby before he’s taken. That’s a clear combat scenario if ever I saw one. Furthermore, you yet again jeopardise your argument by trying to support the flawed position that Dragon Ball Goku is above Superman’s speed. Let me clear up that misconception irrevocably for you so that there's no doubt Superman will be able to keep up with Goku.
It's difficult to interpret exactly what is going on. For one, we see the bullets bouncing off of Superman and he states "the bullets hurt, but they don't pierce my skin". I didn't see him snatch a bullet. The following feats from Goku are clear bullet-timing speed:
Goku was able to see, and avoid three bullets that were fired at him:
He spins his power-pole fast enough to deflect five bullets:
I already showcased a feat of him leaving an After-Image after a bullet was fired at him, and there's another one where he reacted to a bullet fired from behind him. So bullet-timing feats (when in reality, Superman didn't even snatch or dodge a bullet as they deflected off of him) for Superman, are child's play to Kid Goku.
Your point doesn’t hold up to the clear on panel showing that Superman’s hand is moving like a blur to disarm the soldiers as well as picking bullets out of the air. That’s shown in the scan for all to see. And Superman is weakened in that scan as well. Your feats are good enough at showing Kid Goku’s speed but fail to disprove Superman’s clear bullet timing feat whilst weakened. And if you honestly need proof of Superman’s effortless bullet timing
So Goku isn’t the only one to whom bullet timing feats are child’s play to perform.
While undoubtedly intriguing for Superman, Goku has showcased a very similar but more impressive feat as a Teen:
Goku while engaged in combat, managed to move so fast that an already (invisible speed) moving Tien couldn't notice, see, nor even feel Goku taking off the belt:
And why is this feat more impressive than Superman's? Superman had time to take off the rings as Arion was transforming and possesses no super-speed even remotely comparable to Tien (that i'm aware of, you can try to prove me wrong on this claim though).
Goku on the other hand, snatched a much larger object off of a much faster opponent than Arion and who was actually engaged in combat whilst moving at a consistent hyper-sonic speed.
That's why.
Are you honestly saying that Superman has slower speed feats than Tien? Really? I mean really? Tien is a mid tier level being at best whereas Superman is amongst the highest echelons of fictional powerhouses. I’m not going to try and prove you wrong here, I am proving you wrong on this point. I won’t argue the disarming point even though I can point out snatching rings is more impressive than snatching a belt but this is more important.
You're right this is the best Combat Speed feat that you've presented for Superman and i'm highly impressed by it. However, this scan would be entirely different if trying to use it and compare it to a combat situation with Goku:
For one, Superman being able to increase his speed in a situation such as this is not a reliable argument that allows you to back up the claim of him being able to "speed up if Goku's speed surprises him". As in this feat the context is different to fighting a speedster as it was merely a ray that made it seem as though time has stopped to Superman and not an opponent that was outmatching Superman's speed to begin with.
This is not permit you to compare how Superman would keep up against Goku who can fight on a completely different level of speed than Superman can. It's impossible to accurately compare the two to say that Superman could apply a speed increase identically in both situations which is a very speculative assumption.
If you provided a case of Superman speeding himself up against an actual opponent when hopelessly outmatched in speed compared to that opponent's standard, and then being able to keep up/match or exceed that character in a battle then by all means i'll concede that Superman could speed up to keep up with Goku but then again Goku's feats already trump this feat by a wide gap.
When taken into conjunction with my first scan describing the exact level of control Superman has over his speed on Earth as he does all his powers , that temporal combat speed scan is reinforced in its relevance for how fast Superman can move whilst fighting Goku. And whilst your main point is a nice try to make out how Goku can still keep out of Superman’s eyesight during their fight, my first combat speed trump card demonstrating how Superman can speed up his senses to match Barry Allen’s speed nicely counters your fair point that I needed to show a feat where Superman is able to keep up with a faster person. Thanks for making it so I could bring the sped up senses trump card into play. So there you have a solid set of feats which demonstrate that Superman can not only speed up his movement speed to keep up with Goku but his enhanced senses allow him to constantly keep a track of Goku even if he does move faster than him.
Now to break down your combat speed feats. First of all, that Kami scan is highly overrated. Yeah, Kami was still a big deal during Dragon Ball but after DBZ, everyone (even Yamcha despite his incompetence) outclassed him in a big way. His power level never exceeded a thousand to use DBZ terminology against you and so his speed never really increased that much after everyone else’s did during DBZ. Yet I have shown a plethora of feats where Superman’s speed would give even the Goku you are using in this debate trouble in the speed department. Thus, using Kami as a benchmark for speed lacks a great deal of relevance in this debate when Superman could leave Kami in the dust in the sensory and speed department. Feel free to try to prove me wrong there.
See my above points for why Tien’s eyesight is massively overshadowed by Superman’s senses and speed detection with them.
I’m not going to critique the Jeice and Burter one since that’s a good feat but Superman’s done the same to his foes in battle before.
Dodging energy attacks is something Superman can do easily too and has plenty of feats to support that claim. If you want me to prove that point in my next post, feel free to ask but for now, I’d like to play more of my superspeed trump cards.
Post Conclusion
- Superman still possesses the physical and striking edge over Goku with consistent, reliable, easily performed and impressive striking feats in his corner compared to only one truly threatening striking feat from Goku.
- Superman’s durability still stands on a planetary+ level even without my durability trump cards in relation to Goku’s Ki attacks which, while impressive and will definitely be felt by Superman, do not pack the explosive blast needed to put Superman down based on what’s shown thus far and my arguments against it.
- Superman’s nanosecond movements and sped up senses will enable him to keep track of Goku’s movements and counter against Goku’s superior speed.
- Superman is also shown to be incredibly versatile in the use of his powers and, when they’re all combined, will prove to be a serious threat to Goku in this fight regardless of his Super Saiyan forms.
- Overall, whilst there are plenty of feats demonstrating that Goku will be able to hurt and damage Superman, there isn’t enough evidence put forward in your case to absolutely show that Goku stands a chance of seriously overpowering Superman. Thus, he will either eventually fall to Superman’s physical might, his Super Saiyan forms will be outlasted by Superman’s superior stamina or Goku might be able to last long enough against Superman for Hulk to finish up with Sentry and then he’s hopelessly outclassed by the physical superiority of our team
Goodness gracious, that took way more effort than the last two posts combined to answer but I’m done. Man am I worn out though.
But seriously, thinking of all these replies to your points was a great challenge and I had to make this level of a detailed response to your own post. Your rebuttal should be very interesting indeed. The ball is in your court Pope/Goku ;)
Ah, it's good that we hadn't abandoned this as if we did then the posts thus far would have been virtually meaningless. I'm glad to see your third of four (if that's what we're agreeing to) undeniably excellent Superman rebuttals which is good that i'm finally debating this heated topic against a legitimate Superman expert.
The best thing about it, is that there hasn't been a shred of hostility and I intend to keep it that way. It's a perfectly formal debate, which is exactly how it should be:
Sorry Bats, but you're just not quite in the same league as these two. But I digress, i'm not here to completely sugar-coat things for the entire post. With all due respect, let's get straight down to business here.
Let's see who would truly be the last powerhouse standing, the Kryptonianversusthe Saiyan (hint, it's the guy not wearing the tight blue leotard):
So nothing in my two opening posts has shown Superman being able to keep up with Goku? Hypersonic combat speed that sets off multiple sonic booms, speeding up to compensate for a temporal weapon that was slowing him down, moving faster than the eye can follow or mere syllables can be uttered not to mention the fact I still have two trump cards to play in the combat speed area? Let’s just say you may regret making that comment once I get onto combat speed and demonstrate that Superman has ways of levelling the speed issue. So you’ll be in a sticky situation trying to justify this part of your comment my friend ;)
Again, setting off multiple Sonic-Booms does not adequate Hyper-Sonic speed but merely classifies as Massively Super-Sonic speed. It'd be similar to blowing up several buildings and calling yourself a block-buster, but you'd only be labelled a Large-Building buster at best.
Compensating for the reduction of speed is not remotely applicable against Goku, who will beexceeding Clark in the aspect altogether. The best that feat would suggest is that Superman has the ability to speed up when he is being slowed down, which wouldn't apply here as Goku is not nullifying Superman's speed in any shape or form.
Finally, I do agree that moving/fighting faster than the eye could follow and before syllables could be uttered is indeed notable on Superman's part but unfortunately for you, Goku had been exceeding the speed of the eye and could take out enemies so fast that the eye couldn't even slightly perceive (let alone utter a syllable) such a movement as a child:
Not to mention, on the following page Goku had blitzed Krillin with a span of nine Karate-Chops and everyone (except Tien) couldn't perceive so much as one. To the human eye, it appeared as though Krillin had flung himself out of the ring:
(I already posted the scan of Goku defeating those two ninja clones before the original Ninja could finish his sentence and his eyes couldn't even perceive it. If you'd like to view it again, refer to my opening argument).
From thus far at least, my point still stands on Superman's significant speed inferiority to Teen Goku. Don't get me wrong, I am aware that Clark is no slouch in the aspect and wouldn't by any means be considered slow.
However, in comparison to Goku I wouldn't even consider Superman on par with teenage Goku who had been battling at completely invisible speeds while carrying over two-hundred pounds on his shoulders (Tien was matching him at that point), and by taking them off his speed rose exceedingly.
Along with speed-blitzing characters matching invisible paces (King Piccolo, Drum, & Tambourine), timing lasers, moving so fast that he'd leave multiple after-images, short-burst lightning speed, and reacting to a light-speed attack without a trace of movement. All of which, were accomplished at his adolescent to teenage stage, and all being virtually meaningless to his adult speed.
After undergoing training with King-Kai, Goku was approaching the speed of light (without Kaioken) and ascending further into the Namek Saga, Goku had demonstrated light-speed combat movement and evidently becoming faster than light from that point.
At the end of the series, Goku would have become several times faster than his Frieza Saga speed and therefore classifying Goku's Base combatant speed of being exceedingly faster than light at the End of Z to say the least.
That's only the minimal measurement too as I hadn't even factored any Super Saiyan form into that short analysis. The claim of Superman "being able to keep up" is outmatched by the actual feats gap between two. Of course, my claims would pose little threat to Superman if I didn't have evidence to back them up.
Fortunately, I do have the feats to protect the claims and I certainly will present them within this post. I'll do so when we get onto that section of the debate and I do look forward to seeing your supposed trump cards. I don't think i'll be regretting what I have stated in other posts and here, so by all means bring out the best you've got.
Well you’ve called my bluff here. I really hope you’re not implying that Superman doesn’t fight smart when that could not be less true. That would imply a lack of understanding in relation to Superman’s strategic mindset, something I shall clarify for you here. Superman utilises brawn and brains in combat scenarios, especially when going up against powerful foes. There are plenty of examples I can draw on to support Superman’s strategy in combat but for now, I’ll keep things simple.
Indeed, Superman can put his mind to decent use under dire situations such as outsmarting Bizarro into taking the battle into broad sunlight and allowing Mongul to become overconfident may deem as a neat way of thinking. However i'd hardly label it a "genius", nor call it sufficient to match Goku in the tactical/strategic aspect, and certainly wouldn't aid Superman against Goku's adaptive abilities.
While it was a decent attempt, it doesn't match nor exceed Goku's combatant mind. Now, if you'll allow me to present to you the abilities of a combat genius:
Goku is able to detect the animosity within each and every attack. Allowing him to know whether the attacker is truly willing to harm him, and/or if the attack is worth avoiding or deflecting:
Trunks had hopelessly failed to hit Goku with a countless amount of sword swings after his claim of not holding back, yet Goku still knew that Trunks had truly no intention of fighting him:
After doing battle with Piccolo Jr, Goku had already memorized every one of Piccolo's techniques throughout their fight. Plus, it was the first and only time the two had ever fought yet Goku had still studied him thoroughly:
While making use of his strategic mind underwater, Goku had almost immediately realized that Frieza couldn't sense Ki. Using that to his advantage he sent two miniature energy-beams upwards to pose as distractions to Frieza (granting him the element of surprise), and his plan succeeded:
Finally, Tien had split himself into four as a signature technique. It's first attempt was a success, however immediately afterward Goku had pointed out twoflaws in the technique and acted on them accordingly:
I'm aware that Superman is quite the strategist as you have proven yourself but certainly not enough to equalize Goku in the aspect, let alone trick or outsmart him. The type of techniques that Superman had presented with his quick thinking in the Mongul/Bizzaro feat, are the type that I am certain Goku could exploit without a second thought.
With his adaptive abilities along with perhaps a couple of extra treats to throw in, it's clear that Goku takes the easy advantage in this category.
Following on from this, I can neatly fit in my more detailed post on Superman’s versatility and how much more effective and resourceful Superman’s versatility is compared to Goku’s. I said I’d get into Superman’s versatility and this is it.
Ah, I find this aspect of the debate particularly intriguing and I was indeed excited to hear you say your piece. Of course, when I say versatility I mean side-abilitiesthat are viable options in combat and allowing to gain an edge over a specific aspect.
Point No.1-Superman'sSpeed-Blitzing:
Speed-Blitzing is due to the character'sraw speed and in my books shouldn't count as versatility (hence the bold print on side abilities). Anyway, relying on a speed-blitz in engaged combat against a highly motivated Goku is an inherently bad idea.
For one, a fifty-foot starting point wouldn't be nearly enough distance nor grant enough time for Superman to achieve significant speed alone in the first place (as he does need to accelerate in order to reach his top speed, but for Goku it's the complete opposite as his top-speed is achieved instantly and making for more efficient speed-blitzes).
Secondly, Goku would consistently be a step ahead of Clark's attempt due to having his senses locked onto him for the entirety of the battle and disappearing off of Goku's radar wouldn't be possible. The consensus here is that if Superman went for a blitz, Goku would intercept any attempt to do so.
So if someone is getting blitzed, it's Superman.
Not to mention, I haven't heard nor seen of an instance of Superman going for a speed-blitz in character (i'm not saying he hasn't) However, it's actually common for Goku to blitz his opponents if they cannot contend and/or if given any opportunity.
To list the characters that he'd blitzed off the top of my head: Krillin, Tambourine, Drum, King Piccolo, Piccolo Jr, Nappa, Reccome(which you've seen),Frieza, & Android 19.I may provide scans for these eventually, but we'll see how it goes.
That's a total of nine instances and there's probably a handful of others that I cannot recall at this time. Anyway the point is, that Goku is no stranger to the art of speed-blitzing and would certainly take the opportunity on Superman if he's confident in it's success.
Point No.2-Superman'sWhirlwind Creation:
Although seemingly powerful, it's a futile option unless Goku would allow himself to be caught inside of one. Superman would most likely have to stay on the spot to perform one of these, and leaving all kinds of opportunities for Goku to exploit.
Assuming Superman had managed to trap Goku inside of a whirlwind, using instant-transmission wouldn't be any issue for an escape-route. It's a common misconception that instant-transmission requires Goku's concentration, but that's only partially correct as concentration is primarily a (marginal) requirement when using it to travel a long-distance to another person(s). In combat, concentration is not a requirement.
Point No.3 - Superman's Thunder-Clap:
While I do agree that Goku wouldn't shrug this off and certainly would be fazed by the effect at the least, the Saiyan always has a little trick up his sleeve.
Goku uses a Ki-Push which sends Jeice & Burter flying back at a sizable distance and speed. In the first scan, both Ginyu Force members are standing directly beside Goku on opposite sides, yet as you see in the final scan they end up an evident considerable distance away:
A perfect counter for the thunder-clap and would indeed cancel it out. Of course, this is the only instance he's ever used a Ki-Push. However, there would be absolutely no reason for Goku not to take the opportunity and would use whatever he has in his arsenal to counter what Superman throws at him.
Final Point - Superman's Heat-Vision:
I'll admit, those were some neat precision feats on Superman's part and i'll also concede to the fact that Goku doesn't possess the accuracy worthy of comparing. The problem that I discovered with these feats, is that only one of them were instances of combat.
Despite the impressiveness of Clark's accuracy, the fact that only one of these passes off as a combat speed instance implies that he couldn't replicate these techniques in an actual battle especially against a powerful opponent.
In order to surprise or inflict a significant amount of damage to Goku, Superman would need to pack both enough power and speed behind it at once. While I do concede to it's accuracy, I wouldn't rely on precision alone to surprise Goku.
Now that all of that is out of the way, let me present to you in as much detail as I can muster into a single section on why Goku has much more efficiency with his abilities and would utilize them in a significantly superior way in combat than the Man of Steel:
Goku's Versatility:
As we all know, Goku's abilities focus solely on the energy form: "Ki",or as I prefer to call it "Chi". It is the spiritual life-force energy inherited by Goku himself and is used for virtually everything the Saiyan can do.
I'll start out with the basics, Goku can sense the Chi from any living-being and the intensity of his senses varies from how high/low the person's Chi is. For instance, a powerful Chi such as Cell's would be picked up automatically, where as a small Chi such as Bulma's wouldn't show up on his radar and had to be found manually:
It can also be used by Goku to raise his Chi to it's maximum, or decrease it all the way down to zero for any purpose. Anyway, this won't pose any threat to Superman's abilities at all so let me get into Chi's real purposes here.
While Goku may be quite a tough nut to crack regularly, his durability is negligible comparing it to Superman's. That's where Chi comes in, as it can be used to harden Goku'sbodily durability to withstand attacks he regularly couldn't:
Plus, Goku can and has used his Chi to literally raise his voice and make it powerful enough to cancel out moderate energy blasts, (or you could call it aChi-Shout) blowing away Nappa's fully charged energy-blast like so:
I don't see why this wouldn't work on Superman's Heat-Vision, considering that it's lacking in power and wouldn't stand a chance against Nappa's maximally powered blast as he turned an entire city to ashes by lifting his fingers (a Chi Shout could also cancel out Superman's Whirlwinds too).
Goku has displayed forms of telekinesis and has used it to send Frieza flying back by manipulating his Chi on two occasions, and cause small explosions too (along with theKi-Push, that of which I had showcased earlier on):
Considering how powerful Frieza's Chi is (and that Goku could notably manipulate it), then comparing it to the fact that Superman doesn't rely on Chi but instead Solar Energy, i'd say that Goku wouldn't find any trouble in doing the same to Superman if he so wishes.
Progressing onto the more advanced levels of Chi, the most famously known form of Ki-Manipulation is in the form of Energy Projection.
While i'll leave the Kamehameha aside, and instead focus on a couple of smaller and less lethal (but efficient) forms of energy blasts. Goku can spout out a Rapid Volley Blast, consisting of small and fast energy balls and are mainly used to stagger the opponent rather than harm him/her:
Goku can generate Explosive Waves with Chi by exerting his energy from every direction of his body, and thus allowing him to escape from being restrained. If Superman managed to freeze Goku with his Frost-Breath, this should do the trick:
Finally, I saved the best for last and that's Instant-Transmission. As the name would hint, the technique is indeed instantaneous and this was confirmed in the Kanzenshuu stating: "Instant Transmission Is.. Well... Instant".
Plus, as I stated earlier the technique does not require concentration in combat and is basically only required when using it to travel (and even then, it's only marginal). In battle, Goku uses it if his opponent is as fast/faster than him, which isn't a remote problem here.
Goku used it to evade Cell's Kamehameha at the last second (not to mention, the beam was at least light-speed evident to how quickly it entered space), used it a second time on Cell to blast him with a Kamehameha, and used it to dodge Kid Buu's energy beam:
If for some reason Goku couldn't break out of being frozen Superman's Frost-Breath, instant-transmitting outwards shouldn't be a problem for any reason. Also, don't bring up the frail "Goku doesn't use most of that regularly" argument as not a single feat from either character should be ignored.
It doesn't matter if it doesn't happen on a consistent basis, if a character has shown the ability to perform a technique in combat then all variables should be considered. The only form of that argument that could be used is if the character hasn't done that ability while fighting or in a combat situation.
Anyway, in a short-summary:
- Chi-Shout, Chi Durability, & Instant-Transmission > Heat-Vision, Whirlwinds.
- Ki-Push > Thunder-Clap (because Goku's Power>Superman's Strength).
- Explosive Waves > Frost Breath.
- Ki Sensing, Telekinesis > Enhanced Senses, X-Ray Vision.
In comparison to Superman's versatility, i'd say it's clear that Goku should take this as a stronger advantage on his part due to the fact that Goku's abilities don't only serve him but also as counters for Superman's abilities.
Combine Goku's superior side-abilities (also being perfect counters for Superman's ability-set), genius combatant mind, superior sensory and instinctive Saiyan abilities together and I can plausibly say that Goku clearly surpasses Superman in this aspect.
In the first feat, Superman wasn’t KOed by the force of his moon busting punch. He was flashing back to when he was blasted by Imperiex’s energy beam and was KOed by said blast. I know it looks like Superman is getting KOed in his moon busting punch but it’s a flashback sequence by the writer to events that took place earlier in the storyline to contrast the Black Racer with the death that’s taken place already. And you incorrectly misquoted me, I argued that the first moon busting punch destroyed over half the moon, at least two thirds but for ease of calculation, I would downgrade it to half. Check back if you think I’m bluffing. As for the second feat, your initial thought is mistaken in that the context of the feat clearly shows the moon was already travelling at hundreds of thousands of kilometres towards Earth so Superman needed to use superspeed to catch up with it and destroy it in the process. My previous arguments show that Superman can easily moon bust in the other two scans by the ease of which he damaged or split the other two moons. Couple that with Superman still being able to jeopardise the moon’s orbit whilst weakened by Kryptonite poisoning and I can reject your conclusion whilst positing my own that Superman has shown what it takes to easily be a moon buster in striking power.
I'll take your word for it on the first scan, however for the sake of taking this feat into consideration i'd need evidence supporting that Superman showed no signs of fatigue or unconsciousness afterwards. Besides, two-thirds of the moon would only label Superman a Nigh Moon-Buster at best.
In the second feat, my point still stands that Superman needed a speed-build in order to one-shot the Shadow Moon. Regardless of the Moon travelling at hundreds of thousands of kilometers towards the Earth, the yellow narrative descriptions state: "As he accelerates towards the speed of light, his mass increases dramatically" and "he'll need all the mass he can get" still indicate that Superman required a speed-build up and he hadn't solely accelerated in order to catch up, but to completely blow up the Shadow Moon in the first place.
In the third and final feat of when he split clean-through Saturn's Moon, is again another instance of which a speed-build up was evident. I still haven't seen a feat that would consider Superman could deliver hits that adequate moon-level unless he is granted a significant build-up to do so without fatigue.
That’s a very impressive one shot feat and I’d say one shotting a guy with the powers of an entire superhero team is more impressive than one shotting Recoome any day.
Possessing the abilities of an entire team only depends how durable that team put together would be. Recoome's durability had clearly exceeded Vegeta's consisting of enduring punishment from an Oozaru Gohan. Plus, also factoring in the Kamehameha and Spirit-Bomb that Vegeta received.
Until you may say your case on this, i'll make the assumption of Recoome retaining the durability margin on Earth Man (w/ team's abilities). Although I do agree that Superman's striking power would still exceed this feat by default, but the fact that it was accomplished by Goku with minimal effort in his Base Form at the Namek Saga would imply a lot.
Now, onto your notably detailed counter to my case concerning Ki Control. Instead of quoting the entire paragraph (being as large as it is), i'll counter your points one by one without the use of quoting the points:
Point No.1 - Majin Buu:
While this is a valid assumption, insisting that the feat was an act of physicality wouldn't hold up against as well as the assumption of it being an act of power. After all, for Babidi to even release Buu he had to attain an substantial amount of energy for Buu to reach full power, and only then he could be released.
While it may have looked like an act of physicality, the use of Ki doesn't always have to be clearly visible and can be used subconsciously. For instance, Goku's body was still learning to control it's own amount of power evident when Goku had sent Chi-Chi through a wall by merely patting her on the back, yet Goku only weighs roughly 137 Lbs.
If it were an act of physicality, then Buu sitting upon the edge of this mountain like so would haveat least cracked it:
The same would apply to this instance, running through a city holstering the inexplicable amount of Ki that Buu subconsciously flails around would indeed be the only logical explanation for the demonstrated destruction.
Point No.2 - Ki Point-Focusing:
The point of focusing one's Ki into a singular point is toprevent the destructive side-effects that releasing the power put into that single point externally would have caused as locking onto a single point wouldn't affect anything outside of it's range.
Besides, factoring the realistic effects that a planetary energy beam would cause to the surrounding vicinity is also the fallacious comparison of Realism =/= Fiction. You cannot make an attempt of "justifying" your argumentation from a realistic point of view when what you're attempting to prove is scientifically impossible by definition.
Point No.3 - Goku's Instant-Transmission Kamehameha:
For one, Goku didn't fire the beam towards the surface as he only made it appear that way to surprise Cell using instant-transmission so he wouldn't have destroyed the planet if Cell had dodged. However, the assumption of having to fire it into space would be logical if we were speaking realistically, but we aren't.
We're discussing the scientifically impossible here, so any attempt to shift in the effects of realism into the debate is illogical. However, i'm sure you'll want me to do more than this and I certainly will by stating my case on why this feat should be taken as a planet-buster and I have been saving this as a trump card for a while now:
For this, i'll use Kili for my form of measurement. Babidi states that approximately 200/300 Kilis would be enough to destroy a planet, which was also stated and confirmed in the Daizenshuu #7 (Pages: 44-45), (Dragon Ball Daizenshuu #7 - Pages 35-50).
The Daizenshuu being the official Dragon-Ball Encyclopedia, clarifies this statistic as official and not in anyway to be considered a fan-made calculation. Anyway to get back onto how this is relevant to Goku, while in Super Saiyan the device calculated Goku to be at 3,000 Kilis:
The conclusion from this is that a Super Saiyan Goku possesses sufficient power to vaporize ten planets. Also, the Kili meter had only read Goku's Super Saiyan power while the situation did not pose a threat (the only reason for Goku to ascend was to demonstrate that he has ways to see in the dark against Yakon).
Goku can still sustain the transformation under regular circumstances and is able to release the full potential of Super Saiyan willingly in engaged combat. Here, he demonstrates my point against Cell who posed a literal threat (Yakon did not):
While I won't ignore the fact that this was Buu Saga Goku and that the feat we're referencing is Goku from the Cell Saga, he definitely wouldn't have become ten times stronger (3,000/300) nor double for that matter so his strength difference wouldn't be considered exponential.
Regardless, this whole section still justifies the feat as being a minimal planet-buster and the statement from Krillin (who is an expert at sensing Ki) would boost it further. Of course, you could still try to hammer away at the feat but either way I think I have reinforced my point well enough.
Final Point - Vegeta & Goku's Blasts / Superman's Durability Comparison:
The Final-Flash didn't take remotely as much time for Vegeta to charge up in the Manga as the Anime had intentionally dragged out. He focuses, charges, and fires the beam at Cell all in four pages of the issue (I can prove this if you'd like).
I for one wouldn't consider that a massive amount of time and besides the considerable charge up time was primarily due to exerting the absolute limit of his power into one focused point due to how powerful Cell became. The same applies to Goku, it took him exactly four pages to charge, use instant-transmission, and finally to blast Cell point-blank with the Kamehameha. Again, the reason for the significant charge up was due to an attempt to finish Cell.
Neither Ki-Blast from either Saiyan was charged up to surpass the planetary-scale durability (as they'd already done so), but instead to surpass Cell's. Therefore, that argument is moot.
Frieza can manipulate Ki as his appearances undoubtedly prove and this is what allowed him to deflect Vegeta’s attack. So there’s your point entirely countered right back at you, it’s entirely down to Ki Manipulation, not physical stats in this matter.
That still doesn’t change the fact you used the comparison between Frieza tanking a planet and SSJ Goku being able to hurt him as a legitimate means of Goku’s striking power when my argument demonstrated that the correlation between blunt force trauma and energy projection attacks is entirely different.
Well, I can't say anything else here as you countered my point completely. However, you still have to consider the fact that Frieza's Durability (w/ Ki) could deflect an energy-blast from Vegeta being as powerful as it was to cause Piccolo to react immediately.
Secondly, indeed and I was false to compare the two.
If I were to go back and show you every foe Superman has overcome in battle, this could just be scan dumping on my part. The striking feats Superman has displayed Pre Flashpoint demonstrate that Goku would take a large amount of damage from the vastly heavier hitter that is Superman without the level of durability required to fully shrug off these blows. This deals with your faulty presentation of your own feats as being taken with certain predications to suit your case rather than presenting the feat for what it is.
I do agree that Superman is by far the more durable of the two and could soak much more blunt-force trauma damage than Goku could. That still doesn't mean that Superman hits harder and nor does it suggest that Superman wouldn't feel the force omitted from Goku's hits.
In regards to your moon busting counter, you do show the context I already knew that Superman was out in space already but you don’t prove that he was flying at multiple times the speed of light. He just went to take his frustration out on that moon after hearing that Lex became President. He may well have been within Earth’s Solar system confines. And once again, it is absolutely clear that Superman’s build up of speed is what KOed him, not the moon busting punch itself. When compared with the other easy moon busting feats Superman has performed from effortlessly splitting a moon to threatening the moon’s orbit even whilst weakened by kryptonite poisoning, it is crystal clear how easily he can perform these feats. To deny this is to be blind to the empirical evidence I have provided in favour of your own assumptions.
I'd seen a couple of instances where it's suggested that Superman was travelling at light-speed or above in that feat but i'll hold off on that thought. Regardless, the speed-build up was still an evident factor in order for Superman to split through the moon as he did.
I do consider Superman to be a Moon-Buster in the aspect however I wouldn't trust the idea of Superman being able to casually bust through an entire moon with moderate punches due to lack of anything to suggest this unless we ignored what occured in the feats (fatigue, acceleration, and so on) and passed them off anyway.
Really Pope? This is the first time I’ve been bothered by sheer disbelief in something you’ve posted thus far. To stick behind these rather high end calculations and scaling up of Goku’s striking power would mean you would need to provide nearly undisputable evidence of your claim and that’s gonna be hard to manage going up against me, I assure you.
Oh no, I displayed these calculations for Goku in the completely separate section being striking power when it should have been in the energy projection section. I have no idea what made me decide to mix the two, so I apologize for the misunderstanding here.
Although, I didn't power-scale in those calculations either and i'll assure you on that. My misinterpretation on the section of the calculations probably would have led you to believe that I power-scaled, which is understandable.
When did you present undisputable evidence for Goku’s planet busting striking power and energy projection? It’s not as if power scaling is a universally accepted method of measuring DBZ power levels. People still disagree about it today and I do sort of agree with Death Battle when they said that we cannot judge Goku’s power based on what other characters showed they can do. AKA power scaling. Your applications of power scaling in our debate thus far have already had their problems as my counter analysis has shown. Only Goku’s SSJ3 Battle of Gods striking feat is within Superman’s striking range and relying on this one feat merely demonstrates that you are guilty of highballing Goku’s punching power within a specific form in this debate. And highballing one feat doesn’t beat a consistent myriad of showings I have to offer.
- SSJ3 Goku plunged a hole clean through King Kai's Planet, possessing gravity ten times greater than Earth's and I had provided a feat from it suggesting that it's more durable than the Earth itself.
- An idle (Buu-Saga) Super Saiyan Goku possessed a reading of 3,000 Kilis, and only 300is enough to destroy a planet according to the Daizenshuu Encyclopedia and virtually stated in every instance of which Kili is mentioned.
Secondly, I apologize for the misinterpretation of those calculations but I didn't power-scale and that's my fault for leading you onto the belief. A debate doesn't rely on who has the bigger number of consistentfeats, but instead on who has the better feats.
It wouldn't matter if you put one-hundred certified moon-busters against Frieza, he'd still take them all out with a planet-buster as his feats are less in numbers but better in quality.
You may call it high-balling, but plunging through King Kai's Planet (all considerations noted) still stands as the superior feat and always will regardless of it being the one unique feat for Goku.
Here is yet another testament to Superman’s superior striking power since you’re not impressed by my much more consistent striking feats than your own. I’ve shown Stewart’s on panel planet busting durability and I can support that assertion with Kyle effortlessly tanking his own planet busting attack. Here, here and here. Yet I have shown Superman’s striking force overpower John’s willpower shield with his punch. That is another credible striking feat in Superman’s corner.
That's the same logic I was using with the "Frieza could kick away planet-busters, and Goku harmed him" argument, except I conceded to that being false due to the distinguishable differences. Yet, you use the exact same logic here comparing Superman's punch to John Stewart's planetary-explosion durability.
As you and I both know, Blunt-Force=/=(does not equal)Explosive damage. While it would still stand as a notable feat, Superman still needed to put all of his force into that one punch just as he stated.
Darkseid (a non jobbing one I might add), Doomsday, a godlike being and the Claw of Horus which draws power from the magnetic core of the Earth essentially hitting its target with the force of a planet. Those hit harder than Goku with on panel corroboration for their striking power. Try again with something more concrete next time instead of blowing one feat out of proportion.
Bizarro has tossed celestial bodies together and proven to be the physical equal of Superman on numerous occasions. Besides, Bizarro’s punch performed both the hitting through the wall and the necessary force of being able to punch through the wall to use the examples of your own analogy against you.
I didn't see anything from Darkseid, Doomsday, nor the Godlike Being accomplish anything other than putting Superman in his place, and certainly didn't prove that any of them hit harder than Goku could.
The Claw of Horus was the only feat worth considering, and it does equalize Goku's standard. Although, Superman did appear to be knocked straight unconscious by it and the fact that you didn't showcase Superman being able to handle the blow implies it.
Lastly, i'm "blowing it out of proportion" as it's Goku's exceeding feat and it's as concrete as concrete can get, so what standard are you expecting exactly?
To deal with your double planet counter, you fail to see the obvious context that New Genesis and Apokolips were obliterated in the explosion that made the 5th World as a result. It is a planet busting feat given the destroyed planets in the process as well as the force of two planets colliding being endured by Superman and is mostly beyond Goku’s on panel Ki energy feats. I’ll save my durability trump cards for later because I want to see how you handle my earlier posts on Goku’s Ki energy projection.
It doesn't legitimately classify as planet-busting durability feat as Superman himself only handled the force of two planets colliding and hadn't taken a proper planet-buster. I'm not saying he couldn't, but he didn't in this feat at least.
Thus, he was still able to contend with Bills briefly as a Super Saiyan God, not as an ordinary Super Saiyan rendering this part of your argument utterly irrelevant.
I'll admit, this slipped my mind entirely as I posted that feat for granted so I do concede to the fact he was only able to handle Bills' attack due to the idle power still present in his body gained from Super Saiyan God.
I'll also concede to Goku requiring oxygen, but I don't see the relevance of this here as the battle is restricted to the Earth. Unless you're suggesting that Superman could drown or suffocate Goku, which wouldn't seem in character at all.
Anyway, if I do fail to prove to you that Goku's maximal durability is planet-level it doesn't worry me, as Superman couldn't omit a blast comparable to a planet-buster and his true means of damaging Goku is through blunt-force trauma alone.
If you’re going to make the claim that Goku can make short work of Superman, you need to be able back it up. And so far, no evidence or arguments from your side definitively prove Goku is vastly above Superman since I've been able to strip your posts apart and provide a more critical and logical analysis of your own feats and arguments demonstrating how they're not all they're cracked up to be in the slightest.
That's why I saved my primary form of evidence for this post (the Kili Meter), so from here on out you're going to find that the tides have turned and especially since I have more to come. Besides, I haven't even seen anything suggesting Superman (thus far) could truly handle a direct hit from a planet-buster from Super Saiyan Goku.
You've showcased that Superman could handle the collision of two planets, which isn't close to the force of a planetary explosion focused into a single point aimed straight at Superman's head.
So we’re back to square one again on this hypersonic combat speed feat are we? Look Superman is clearly setting off multiple sonic booms in that scan so he’s only massively super sonic in the very least and still squarely placed within the hypersonic range given the number of sonic booms he’s set off. As for the baby feat, in the first panel there’s a power suit wearing guy charging towards the baby and Superman zooming off to snatch the baby before he’s taken. That’s a clear combat scenario if ever I saw one. Furthermore, you yet again jeopardise your argument by trying to support the flawed position that Dragon Ball Goku is above Superman’s speed. Let me clear up that misconception irrevocably for you so that there's no doubt Superman will be able to keep up with Goku.
I've already taken apart the "hyper-sonic" combat speed feat from Superman at the start of this post. Again, the Baby feat doesn't show Superman fighting or in remotely engaged combat as he merely snatched the baby and flew it off in a span of nanoseconds, which would only apply to Superman's flight speed.
I really fail to grasp how my claim of Superman falling behind Teen Goku in speed would be labelled "flawed" or "fallacious", when a single feat from you hasn't suggested otherwise thus far. Teen Goku has demonstrated feats equal to and exceeding Superman's altogether time and time again.
Are you honestly saying that Superman has slower speed feats than Tien? Really? I mean really? Tien is a mid tier level being at best whereas Superman is amongst the highest echelons of fictional powerhouses. I’m not going to try and prove you wrong here, I am proving you wrong on this point. I won’t argue the disarming point even though I can point out snatching rings is more impressive than snatching a belt but this is more important.
I didn't say Tien was faster than Superman, I was referring to Arion. Anyway, snatching a much larger and more noticeable object off of a speedster (who was literally fighting when it happened) is more impressive than snatching smaller objects off of a character of inferior speed and was transforming (not necessarily moving) at the time.
Now, let's analyze these two trump cards of yours:
Card No.1 - Superman's Sped-Up Senses:
Ah, I had hoped you'd bring up this feat as it is all too easy to counter. While this does demonstrate Superman's ability to speed up his senses to become exponentially fast, the fact that I haven't seen him replicate this ability in combat, renders this ability virtually baseless in an attempt to suggest he could speed up his senses while in battle.
Therefore, I won't have to prove that Goku could move faster than the Second Flash as this ability isn't applicable to combat unless Superman has demonstrated the ability to do so. If he has, then i'd need to see him do it but considering you haven't provided such a feat, implies that he couldn't.
Card No.2 - Spotting Barry Allen:
Superman only spotted Barry running at his idle light-speed as it is evident that Barry Allen can move at speeds many times faster than light. Besides, Barry was travelling in one direction and not fighting like Goku would be.
Superman himself can travel at light-speed and far greater, so spotting Barry moving at his idle speed in a single direction isn't surprising. Again, I don't have to prove that Goku could move faster than Barry or Wally's top speed, however I can and will showcase that: "Goku's Top Speed>Flash's Idle Speed" later on.
So there you have a solid set of feats which demonstrate that Superman can not only speed up his movement speed to keep up with Goku but his enhanced senses allow him to constantly keep a track of Goku even if he does move faster than him.
If you want me to prove that point in my next post, feel free to ask but for now, I’d like to play more of my superspeed trump cards.
They're not as solid as you'd like it to be mate, as there's a lack of any significant basis supporting how Superman could speed himself up nor his senses incombat. I handled the "compensation for reduction of speed" at the start of this post and I literally just countered the "sped up senses" feat too.
Again, speeding himself up to match time dilation within a nanosecond is inapplicable to combat as Superman has not used nor shown the ability to do that in a fight from what you have shown me.
At last, now that i'm finished rebutting most of your points and having to tediously quote and reply a countless amount of times, I can finally finish up on Superman and get onto the final section of this post which is solely regarding Goku:
Goku's Durability:
While I do know that Superman is irrefutably the more durable of the two in both the blunt-force and explosive aspects, Goku isn't going down after a couple of hits and he doesn't need to worry about any significant energy-type output from Superman either.
After amping his durability, Trunks was unable to draw even a drop of blood after several attempts to cut Goku and yet what happened to Frieza after a single swing? He was sliced clean in half:
The sword only allowed Trunks to slice Frieza, but it was Trunks' force that counted for ninety-nine percent of the feat. I have proof of this too, as King Cold attempted to cut through Trunks with his own sword and to no avail:
Goku endures a brutal beatdown from Frieza, consisting of virtually every kind of blunt-force damage along with being sent through a mountain by Frieza's energy-blast, yet Goku could endure just about all of it:
Frieza opened a rift and cut through the entire surface of Planet Namek with a single slicing-beam. Later on, he did the same to Goku and it had only a marginal effect and he himself was even surprised Goku could withstand it:
Along with enduring vicious attacks from an enraged Majin Vegeta (while holding back), easily taking blows from Majin Buu in SSJ3 (who one-shotted SSJ2 Gohan), and standing up to Cell even though he posed only as a mere annoyance, I think it's fair to say that Goku is indeed one tough nut to crack and Superman isn't putting him down easily.
Although I cut this durability section short, unfortunately there isn't much to be said for the Saiyan when compared to Superman. However, i'll make up for that with the rest of this post and I can assure you of that.
Goku's Striking Power:
I'll admit to only having one particular feat for Goku that properly arises above Superman's several feats of notable quality but hardly on par with Goku's single feat.
As I said earlier on in this post, a debate does not rely on who has the more feats but instead who has the better feats. Super Saiyan 3 Goku's feat of plunging out the center of King Kai's Planet is more than a substantial feat.
While the planet itself is small, there's solid proof of it being significantly more durable than the Earth as it didn't even tremble when Goku powered up to Super Saiyan 3 and the Earth almost tore itself apart. Thus, this supports the quality of Goku's feat.
Super Saiyan 3 Goku's hits would crack through planet-level durability. There's no denying that Superman wouldn't be harmed by Goku's hits, and certainly his feats wouldn't label him to hit harder regardless of the quantity.
Lastly, let's find out how much force that Goku's hits would omit while in his lesser forms by dividing the power of Super Saiyan 3 by the power difference between each transformation and Super Saiyan 3 itself:
- Super Saiyan 2 - A quarter of Super Saiyan 3 and therefore Superman would be definitely feeling the force of the hits that Super Saiyan 2 would omit.
- Super Saiyan-Nothing short of an eight of Super Saiyan 3, consequently Goku would irritate Superman although wouldn't do anything significant.
- Base Form- A four-hundredth of Super Saiyan 3, and staying in this form wouldn't be enough to do anything more than faze Superman at the best.
Goku's Energy Projection:
I'll elaborate further into this using the Kili Meter Reading from earlier on, so an idle Super Saiyan Goku's reading was 3,000 Kilis along with a confirmation in the Daizenshuu that 200/300 Kilis is sufficient to planet-bust? That'd confirm that he holsters enough power in Super Saiyan to bust ten planets.
You're probably expecting me to go on to say: "In Super Saiyan 2, that's twenty planets". However, that's not how the ascension of Super Saiyan works as the increase of power doesn't remain in the structure as before and literally exerts Goku's Ki to the next level of measurable power.
Now, I for one would agree that SSJ3 Goku would logistically be considered a Solar-System buster. Before you spray me with claims of "power-scaling" from Cell, i'm not going by that route and i'll demonstrate how and why Goku should be on that level without a single instance of power-scaling:
Our Solar System consists of the following: Nine Planets (Earth, Neptune, Saturn, Uranus, Mars, Jupiter, Pluto, Venus, and Mercury), Asteroid Belt(s), and theSun:
- Base Goku is a fiftieth of a Super Saiyan, and thus the power packed behind his energy blasts would omit enough to bust a fifth of the Earth (as 3,000/50 is 60, then 300/60 would give you 5).
- A Super Saiyan Goku already possesses the power to bustten planets, so there's the nine planets of the Solar System ticked off of the list.
- By ascending to Super Saiyan 2 and doubling Goku's power externally that's already given from Super Saiyan, it would ensure the destruction of the majority of the Solar System to say the least.
- Topping it all off with Super Saiyan 3 being four-times the strength of a Super Saiyan 2, the entire Solar-System and more would be wiped out.
As I do find it highly unlikely you'd comply with this for a number of reasons, if we went by the strict power structure from each transformation you'll still have to realize that Goku would harness enough power to turn (at least) eighty planets to dust.
Superman thus far hasn't demonstrated to handle even one proper planet-buster, so Goku will take it easy from here on out until I see these next trump cards. Also, don't bring up the "Goku hasn't done any of this on-panel, so he can't" argument as that's a highly ignorant, vague, and generally a poor way of looking at it when I have literally demonstrated that Goku has the power to perform the feats.
The only reason why Goku hasn't destroyed a planet for instance, is because he's never had a reason to and he's the good guy of the series.
Goku's Combat Speed:
Ah, I have been greatly looking forward to this final combat-speed aspect of my post. From what I have seen Superman perform regarding this aspect actually in battle, wouldn't even outclass a teenage Goku in speed despite your denial of this and you're still lacking the applicable feats to defeat this claim.
What you actually have presented for Superman that would enable him to spar with Goku in this aspect are inapplicable to combat due to none of them actually showcasing Superman in a combat situation or actually fighting at all.
Your only quantifiable feat you could fit in to this section of the debate is Superman barely spotting Barry Allen running at his idle light-speed in one direction, but clearly nowhere near his maximal combat speed. Therefore, you can't use feats that Superman hasn't done nor shown the ability to doin combat.
If we're going to super low-ball Goku down below to the absolute pinnacle of minimum, the furthest you'd get in decreasing his speed, is still faster than light. Of course, there's nothing stopping you from still claiming Superman could still keep up (regardless of lacking the adequate combat-feats) but i'm going to utterly torch that claim and any "significant" weight it may hold.
In my opening post, I posted the feat of Kid Goku reacting to and avoiding Tien's Solar-Flare (solar-flares being light itself and hence it's obvious speed) and we're using that to quantify Goku's speed.
Going far ahead into the Saiyan Saga when he battled with Vegeta, Goku had admitted that Vegeta's speed was far exceeding his own (even factoring in the increase from Kaioken X2) and Goku was certainly correct as Vegeta had speed-blitzed him:
In order to speed-blitz somebody, your combat-speed would have to exceed their reaction-speed. Therefore, it's clear that Vegeta had to be (at least) faster than light in order to bypass Goku's FTL reactions in the first place. Moving on into the Namek Saga, Goku had far surpassed Vegeta's speed at this rate as Vegeta could only barely detect Goku's movement:
There's a ton of more evidence I could provide to that claim too (Goku keeping up with Frieza yet Vegeta could not, and more), but it should be a given by default. Anyway, it goes to show that Namek-Saga Goku does possesslight-speed in combat. There's also feats to enhance this such as swatting away five of Frieza's death-beams (which are easily faster than light, and I can prove this if you wish) in Base and in Super Saiyan he was effortlessly shifting out of their path, and escaping from Frieza's paralysing light-ball in the instant that it exploded:
Plus, Goku would have become several times faster than his Namek/Frieza Saga speed by the End of Z (as he matched Uub's speed in Base)and I haven't even factored in the amount of how Goku's speed would multiply after each Super Saiyan Form:
- Super Saiyan - X50 FTL
- Super Saiyan 2 - X100 FTL
- Super Saiyan 3 - X400 FTL
Thus, there's absolutely no way that Superman could plausibly spar with Goku unless I gave you the benefit of the doubt but i'm not willing to throw away the strongest advantage Goku has over Superman in battle as i'm sure you wouldn't be willing to do either. Base Goku would still be leagues surpassing Superman's speed and thus the only trouble he'd have would be harming Superman. The only reason I could think of for you to consider Superman on par with Goku in speed, is for the sake of the debate. Otherwise, there's literally nothing that could remotely suggest Superman could land a hit on Goku but even if you did manage to pull something out of the blue proving otherwise, there's always the case of instant-transmission.
Post-Conclusion:
- Goku's genius combatant-mind and instinctive abilities combined with his sheer combat versatility and also acting as nicely formatted counters to Superman's side-abilities allow him to take the trophy home in the Versatility category.
- While Goku isn't as tough as Superman, there's enough evidence supporting the claim of Goku's Durability being able to handle a fairly decent amount of Superman's attacks.
- Regardless of lacking in quantity, Goku's Striking Power still exceeds in quality and the force omitted from a Super Saiyan 3 Goku's hits would certainly cause Superman great deals of damage due to Goku's punches exceeding planetary level durability.
- Although Superman would outlast Goku in the Stamina aspect, Superman isn't going to overwhelm Goku due to being outmatched speed-wise.
- As far as Energy Projection goes, so far Superman hasn't truly been able to handle a single planet-buster and thus there's not nearly enough evidence to say he could handle the power Goku would be omitting in Super Saiyan, let alone going further.
- Finally regarding Speed, there isn't anything I have to say here as Goku had proven himself to be in a completely different league of speed compared to Superman and I can safely claim that Superman couldn't land a hit, even more so with Instant-Transmission.
While Superman can harm Goku with blunt-force trauma and handle most of Goku's basic offensive attacks, he is tremendously lacking in the sole requirement in order to inflict the damage he can omit to Goku which is speed. However, Goku can harm Superman in both the blunt-force trauma and the energy projection aspects and is perfectly capable of landing the hits.
In order to safe-guard Goku's stamina, i'll keep him in Super Saiyan 2 for the majority of the fight unless Superman brings something new and improved to the table. Although Super Saiyan 2 being tremendously inferior to Super Saiyan 3, the speed aspect is always retained over Superman and thus not needing to exert himself fully.
Basically, how I see this fight going down is Goku ascending to Super Saiyan 2 in the first second of the fight, proceeding to speed-blitz and shower Superman with a barrage of one-hundred punches (omitting the force sufficient to crack a quarter of planetary durability) in one second (considering he's fighting at his best and could hit Krillin nine times per second as an infinitely weaker adolescent).
While Superman is staggered and his head is spinning from the punches whilst trying to perceive what had just happened, he sees a bright blue light emitted from Goku's hands and assuming he's fit enough to intercept it, Goku is already behind Superman before any action could be taken and roasts him with a Kamehameha.
Once Superman is unconscious, Goku proceeds to aid Sentry against the Hulk and unfortunately the Hulk is overwhelmed by his inability to touch Goku, and allowing the Sentry to whale on Banner.
Ah, the amount of time that I spend making these may be severely consuming but it's all worth it regardless and I apologize for the long-wait my friend but i'll indeed be excited to see your rebuttal to this.
You're up, @lvenger (AKA, Superman).
@stupid_people: @darkbiscuit: @cardle_grave: @cardle_grave: @raynorj: @jhaigo: @theincrediblesuperhulk8642: @dondave: @wolverine08: @sophia89: @oreoassassin: @neongamewave: @unbreakable_fs4: @vegetto1990: @reaverlation: @hart7668: @ghostravage: @nighthunder: @lvenger: @pope052: WILL POPE052 PROVE GOKU TRIUMPHS OVER THE MAN OF STEEL?! WILL LVENGER ONCE AGAIN MAKE EVERYONE AGREE SUPERMAN BEATS THE SUPER SAIYAN?! WILL FANBOYS ATTACK THIS THREAD?!?! WILL THIS THREAD GET LOCKED?!?!
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