#1 Edited by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules

  • @lvenger and @ghostravage are using Pre Flashpoint Superman and the Green Scar Hulk (with access to all canon Hulk feats til Aaron's 2011-2012 run) respectively.
  • @pope052 and @nighthunder are using End of Z Goku (w/ Manga and Anime Feats plus Battle of the Gods Feats that don't involve SSJ God feats. Goku is allowed Super Saiyan 1-3) and Pre Siege (No Death Seed feats) Sentry respectively.
  • Sentry cannot use his calming aura on the Hulk nor is he allowed to tap nor turn into the Void.
  • In-Character but highly motivated to win.
  • Win by KO, incapacitation or death. No permanent BFR allowed.
  • Fight takes place on an indestructible and abandoned Earth.
  • Knowledge between teammates but not against the opposing team.
  • Understandable Starting Distance, say 50 feet away from each other.
  • Please vote for the team you thought debated the best overall with a reason as to why you voted for that team.

For the Viners

  • Do not post irrelevant content (Music, Videos, Scans, Death Battle, Etc).
  • Do not interfere in the debate. It is solely between us four. If you must correct us on a point or ask us a question, do so in a P.M.
  • As always, may the best team win.

Battlefield

Let the bloodbath begin!

#2 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by Jhaigo (223 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks great.

#5 Edited by Cardle_grave (458 posts) - - Show Bio

Take Anime Goku out, And it should be a Good match up

#6 Posted by Dratini1331 (7011 posts) - - Show Bio

nice :D

#7 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage @lvenger @nighthunder

I may as well make people aware of the posting order, to avoid any possible confusion:

In this debate, it's a 2V2 CAV but in the style of a 1V1 Debator with a posting order. What I mean by this, is that one debator will go against one, and we won't get tied in with each other's posts. It'll be one at a time.

We have agreed that a random post by each debater would make things a little unorganized and generally messy. So instead, we agreed to go by this posting order:

  • Nighthunder - Opening Sentry Post
  • GhostRavage - Countering @nighthunder's Sentry Post with Opening Hulk Post
  • Lvenger - Opening Superman Post
  • Pope052 - Countering @lvenger's Superman Post with Opening Goku Post

And so on.

It's me VS @lvenger, and @ghostravage VS @nighthunder. Primarily because Superman would more than likely go for Goku in character, and Hulk is much more likely to go after Sentry.

#8 Posted by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: The official Chuck Norris seal of approval

Now are we agreed on the posting order?

#9 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio
#11 Posted by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Ha we posted 3 seconds apart. Synchronised much? :P

#12 Posted by reaverlation (14230 posts) - - Show Bio

This will be one to watch.Good Luck to all :)

#13 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@pope052: Ha we posted 3 seconds apart. Synchronised much? :P

Haha, I was about to point that out.

#14 Posted by Stupid_People (1248 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting. Good luck to you all, @pope052 call me when voting begins.

#15 Edited by Darkbiscuit (689 posts) - - Show Bio

WHOOOO LEGGO. Very interesting matchup

#16 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

How do you prepare for the sheer epicness?

#17 Posted by Wolverine08 (39035 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be awesome.

Online
#18 Posted by dondave (34756 posts) - - Show Bio

Ehh, this might be good.

#19 Posted by RaynorJ (1498 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy, this gonna be good.

#20 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Posted by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Edited by NighThunder (2910 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: err yes, I thought I had posted yesterday saying I was gonna do my opener as soon as I'm able.must have not posted.

#23 Posted by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio
#24 Edited by NighThunder (2910 posts) - - Show Bio

Oaky, lets do this

Alright seeing as im facing hulk, i'll just jump right into how Sentry beats him and the advantage's he has over him.

1: Speed

I think i'll go ahead and start with the obvious:

Speed.

This is one of the crucial factors in Sentries arsenal, that'll allow him to put down hulk

So without further-adoo, the scans

Here it's implied that he saves a mass of people in in libya while his wife thinks he was in the bathroom.

Here he speedblitzes

and here, he's able to repair an entire tower in a single panel

and lastly

he speedblitzes morgan and rips her head before she even reacts.

i think this kind of travel and reaction speed alone would enable =him to avoid most, if not all of hulks attacks, bar his AoE attacks

Regeneration and durability

As for this, im not exactly sure if it's a thing he has over hulk directly, but, it'll definitely aid him

~~

First and foremost, Heres Bob taking hulks punches and simply asking for more

next, he eats a nuke to the face and is unharmed

Moreover

he's able to reform after being destroyed

after a fight with void, sentry's face is broken, but he completely heals

Energy projection

I think this along with speed will come in hand the most

~~~

'Alright, so first off, we immediatly see that sentry has enough energy to destroy multiple planets with the combined efforts of photon.

It also states he can draw energy from anywhere

Next

I think that scan scan speaks for itself

finnaly

he's capable of omni-directional blasts

And that, is my opener, i have a bunch of other abilities that he could utzilize to beat hulk like TP, empathy and others but, i want to leave elbow room

#26 Edited by reaverlation (14230 posts) - - Show Bio

@xjomb: Uncalled for.This is a CaV.Don't say anything till this over

#27 Posted by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio

Well what an engrossing CAV this is turning out to be -_- I'm too tired to make a post now but if Nighthunder doesn't finish his opening post, I'm starting this debate for real tomorrow. I'd like to have this debate mostly in the bag before I go back to university.

#28 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Agreed, but hold off for now (i'd rather not mess up the post order this early). Unless we can agree to change it so that their argument is separate from ours?

We'll hear from @nighthunder before we may consider that though:

@nighthunder

When would you say you'll finish your post? It would be preferable if you picked up the pace a little.

It's understandable that you have other outside factors such as school to consider but at least make one post and don't break it up into separate parts.

#29 Posted by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I'm fine with him having other stuff like school to do but it'd be nice if he made it clear he was busy with real life commitments because he's been on here doing his other tourneys and debates.

#30 Posted by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (1982 posts) - - Show Bio

this looks awesome my 2 fav characters being debated by 2 incredible debaters. Definitely watching this.

#31 Edited by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@nighthunder: Finally mate! I was wondering if we should have dropped this.... Anyway... Let's start by countering some of your things...

Your Speed vs My Inertia

It's true, you indeed have the speed advantage by quite a wide margin. However, that's certainly your ONLY advantage, since Hulk pretty much overpowers everybody here in raw physical attributes besides speed.

Those scans you posted, as compelling and useful as they might be, you didn't show Sentry fighting... Not even once besides him rushing against someone who doesn't have good reflexes, doesn't have good durability and certainly, doesn't have regenerative skills as Hulk, quite far from it to be honest.

  • Inanimate objects don't fight back neither people who wants to be saved. If anything, the first set of scans just proves Sentry does possess a high traveling speed.
  • In the Siege scan he's not speedblizting... He's just going through Asgard's buildings destroying it, he does that the entire issue, not exactly speedblitzing but just flying/tackle towards buildings...
  • The scan with Morgan, isn't Speed Blitz either... Im starting to see a misconception pattern here. Blitz means he needs to land several hits before the target could react, a definition that doesn't match with none of your scans.

That being said, let's now show you WHY your "tackles" and weak "speed blitzes" wont play much of a factor against Hulk, specially, THIS Hulk and his passive attributes.

Hulk has high levels of inertia against physical damage, in other words, even though he weights around 1 ton, it's awfully hard to move him... Take a look...

First we have Juggernaut fighting Banner in Incredible Hulk #602...

As you can see, every punch Juggernaut is delivering, it's creating Earthquakes with increasing magnitude... It even created 8.0 Earthquakes, so it's irrefutable that Juggernaut indeed punches hard given the fact 8.0 Earthquakes have a TNT conversion of 6.27 million tons of force... Quite heavy.

This is from the Department of Conservation of California.

That being said, Hulk took such punches from an quite angry and humiliated Juggernaut and literally shrug them off with minor discomfort in World War Hulk: X-Men #3...

He even almost completely stopped Juggernaut's charge... And as you know, you just CAN'T stop the Juggernaut when he has momentum. So yeah, my Inertia makes me incredibly resistant to your tackles, speed blitz, high speed combat, you name it. I'll mention other feats if Sentry miraculously pulls stronger hits than these.

Your Regeneration/Durability vs My Damage Output

You're right... Sentry's Regeneration would absolutely help him fighting Hulk, but it's something that wont give him the win over Hulk.

First, let's approach your scans...

  • It's funny you used World War Hulk #5's scans to show Sentry's durability, given the fact that Sentry wasn't Mentally Stable in that instance, which falls directly in his dialogue. Not only Sentry wanted to be beaten and his persona was awfully twisted in the issue after the events in the Civil War, but the fact Sentry is getting stomped by Hulk... Hulk literally punched him 3 times and he already had a disfigured face. Not a very good showing in the first set of scans.
  • The scan of Sentry withstanding a nuclear explosion is a bit sketchy. How did you come to the conclusion he was unharmed by the explosion? If anything, everything points out it was a regeneration feat rather than a durability feat, given the time it took Sentry to come back and the whole Archangel dialogue with Scott... Sentry himself even says he doesn't look that good, not that he wasn't harmed.
  • Such utterly high end feats are often attributed to the Void side of Sentry keeping him alive, a Void side we agreed you wouldn't be able to tap into. Take a look...

The black speech bubbles are self explanatory... Void is talking and he exclusively states "You want to kill yourself to get rid of me?" which implies Sentry could've died in that instance, just by turning into a skeleton in front of a sun, let alone explode like popcorn in your instance.

It's arguable that in the instance with Molecule Man Sentry was utilizing his Void side as well, given the whole "Black Eyed" status not to mention, every time he finds himself in that status is directly connected to his emotions, not exactly a mentally stable Sentry... Take a look...

He turned his eyes Black after Female Ultron killed his wife... This is also corroborated by the scripts written by Bendis about Seige...

"But it's the almost blank stare and black eyes that are so off-putting about The Sentry. Something is wrong." This is assumable due to Void given the fact Sentry was at the borderline of turning full Void in the Siege story arc, which then falls once again in Sentry not being Mentally Stable. This explanation goes directly to the scan of Sentry being blown out and regenerating given the fact Sentry came back with Black Eyes...

This was the first time he regenerated... As you can see, it's more than visible that at the end, Sentry comes back with Black Eyes aka. Void which implies the ability to regenerate on that scale is due to external causes rather than being Mentally Stable.

But to deliver this to your instance in particular, Sentry came back with Black Eyes once again...

So i wouldn't put too much emphasis in this kind of regeneration, and everything involving these instances given the whole "Voided" context (pun intended) behind.

Now that your scans are delivered let's bring to the table MY damage output, damage you wont be able to tank for long...

First we have Hulk's striking force, which has been quite overpowered since classic days... Take for example Incredible Hulk #410, when Professor Hulk takes down walls made out to withstand nuclear strikes with a single punch...

Child's play to tear off this kind of walls... Im using this particular incarnation because both Pak's Hulk and Professor Hulk share the same perk of Bruce Banner's mind being the one in charge. That being said, World War Hulk is a whole new level...

He can literally ground 100+ toners with a single blow while holding back... Note that in this instance, it was his cousin plus he didn't want to harm ANYBODY innocent, which his cousin in particular was... What makes this kind of blows even deadlier is the fact he can channel his Gamma Energy through his punches, Iron Fist/ Skaar style as proven in Incredible Hulks #625

He can punch people through a volcano into several miles away without even trying while being weakened. I'll show more about this striking force later, since this is my opener and im inexplicably impatient to see Lvenger's argument :P

In case you ask for more proof about this attribute, here's a more profound description about it...

This is the closest one might get into explaining this... It was due to his Gamma energy. Pak's Hulk when becoming angry starts generating HUGE amounts of gamma energy, that the reason why his steps were tearing down the Eastern Seaboard...

As well as disrupting the aerial zone of some recognition copters and damaging other states...

So, in his fight with Skaar, is visible how a green aura is being released every step he makes, that's his Gamma energy...

The same energy he uses against Giant Bi-Beast and Wendigo to punch them...

As well as when he was pretty much one shoting a training robot...

So this is where we're going... Hulk knows how to canalize his Gamma energy in a similar way Bruiser does with his center of Gravity...

This is previously corroborated when fighting Red Hulk and almost one shoting him...

As well as later in the Dark Dimension while thunderclapping Fin Fang Foom into busting Umar's shields...

So THAT'S the reason he managed to take such a huge hit and not fly all the way into orbit and beyond... His Gamma Energy canceled the kinetic energy Skaar gathered. It's not that he can defy gravity, there's an actual explanation for it with multiple on panel proof about it.

So summarizing this particular factor, Sentry lacks of durability to hang around World War Hulk who FAR exceeds him in that department. This in combination with his striking force, Gamma channeling abilities, Thunderclaps and his overpowered inertia will play too much for any speed or physical advantage you may want to exploit...

Finally,

Your Energy Projection vs My Resistance to it

Your scans first, as always...

  • The first scan says the "the power BOTH men spit out is enough to shred entire worlds"

The "both" implies is not only Sentry's energy projection that is going to shred worlds. Second, it doesn't say it can destroy multiple planets, which is an overstatement to be honest. Im almost positive it meant it could destroy planets, not destroy multiple planets. That's of course ignoring Sentry didn't show such energy projection in the scan, which leaves it as a mere statement. Im open to correction though.

  • The fact that you're using scans of World War Hulk story arc just benefits me mate. Sentry in the story arc lost control over his persona, he was literally out of control... He wasn't holding back at all, and that includes his energy projection...

Granted, he wasn't mentally stable in the instance, but still, people is confirming he never released his energy on such scale before... Again, using those scans just strengthen my point of Hulk beating Sentry...

  • Not sure how Omni-Directional blasts will help you against Hulk. They are useful against targets you can't directly hit in the first place, not exactly the case with Hulk, just sayin' :P

That being said, let's come with MY scans...

While Sentry INDEED posses huge amounts of energy projection, Hulk on the other hand posses a very high end resistance to it... Take for example World War Hulk #2, where Human Torch and Storm used his best shots to deal with him and he was barely phased by the weak intent...

I strongly doubt energy projection will present a threat to Pak's Hulk given the very wide list of feats supporting such resistance to it... Even in the same run, he was literally going like a hot knife into butter through Arma'Cheddon's syphoned beam...

A beam powerful enough to pretty much own Jen Walters to the ground effortlessly, what makes it even a cooler feat is the fact he put Silver Surfer down for a prolonged time in Incredible Hulk #416 with the same strategy he applied on Hulk in this instance, which was syphoning Hulk's energy to counter him... On top of that, Hulk, as ridiculous as it may sound, is susceptible to huge amounts of Gamma Radiation... Which is the syphoned beam Arma'Cheddon was using in Incredible Hulk #632.

As explained in Incredible Hulk Annual #10, Bruce Banner as Captain Universe stated huge amounts of Gamma Radiation could turn Hulk back to normal... An strategy that failed hard with Arma'Cheddon and Pak's Hulk. I'll show more of this later.

I'd like to mention those scans of yours with Sentry being punched by Hulk as well... Not only Hulk took the HUGE amounts of Sentry's energy projection while holding back, but there was a hint of energy manipulation by Hulk's part as well...

He's literally grabbing the energy and moving upwards... Not to mention he pretty much fights Sentry while floating, more likely manipulating Sentry's own energy projection throughout the whole issue... Perks... Perks everywhere... ;)

============================================================================================

And that, is my opener, i have a bunch of other abilities that he could utzilize to beat hulk like TP, empathy and others but, i want to leave elbow room

From the start im going to debunk this to save you some time mate... TP is useless against World War Hulk...

If Xavier couldn't do it... Why would Sentry be any different?

And about empathy... I think we've made it pretty clear Sentry couldn't exploit such amount of CIS in this battle. It's against the rules :P

To sum it up...

  • Hulk is stronger, more durable, and it's smart enough to fight intelligently against a speedster like Sentry.
  • Sentry lacks of durability and regeneration factor to hang around Hulk for a prolonged time before starting to fall...
  • Hulk Smash! and helps Superman.

Your turn guys @lvenger @pope052

#32 Posted by reaverlation (14230 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: nice opener.This CaV is finally on the move again

#33 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Posted by reaverlation (14230 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Edited by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio

As these two excellent opening posts demonstrate, my partner Ghost Ravage has shown why Hulk is more likely to go after Sentry, a foe he's faced and defeated before thus meaning he has Sentry's measure. This leaves Superman with an unknown spiky haired opponent and me to debate one of the most infamous and widely disagreed upon match ups in internet and fictional history. Fortunately I have a very respectable opponent, aka @pope052 to debate against so I'll get straight to why I think Superman can win this controversial fight by listing some of the clear advantages he has.

Physical Strength

I think this is an area where Superman has a very wide edge over Goku in this regard. Since he's regarded as one of the strongest beings in the DC Universe Earth, Superman has a plethora of strength feats to call upon to support my point. I could spam all those to prove my point and whilst this is one area I think you'll agree Goku can't surpass Superman on, I'll reinforce my point with a little comparison for a change.

Since you're using anime showings as well as manga ones, I thought I'd use this example for a change to show why Superman is physically stronger than Goku by a great deal. In his fight with Kid Buu (which I am aware contradicts the original manga since Goku went straight to a SSJ3 there) Goku engages with Kid Buu in SSJ2 first. In this first video, Buu flings Goku into a large rock formation thinking he's trapped Goku in there. But Goku does manage to move it apart albeit with a great deal of effort. You can see him yelling DBZ style with the sheer strain and effort it's taking on him to move apart that rock formation. It is also fairly large but nowhere near say mountain size

EDIT: See my comment below due to complications on this post.

Yet Superman has moved mountains with ease before

And he lifts it whilst making a joke which you probably wouldn't make if you were straining with the effort. Bearing in mind Goku's lack of lifting feats coupled with the trouble he's had with the infamous 40 ton feat and the block of Katchin, the densest metal in the DBZ universe, it's clear Superman's abundance of physical strength feats push him way above Goku's in that regard.

Goku has also engaged his foes in arm locks or pushing contests of strength during some fights. If he tries to do this like he did with Cell

this won't help Goku at all. Even Superman's physical equal, Captain Marvel was unable to do anything more than stalemate Superman in an arm wrestling contest. And Goku is obviously far from being Superman's physical equal in raw strength.

Thus, it is abundant that Superman's raw physical strength far outweighs Goku's own which could help in overpowering Goku in certain stages of the fight.

Striking Power

But it would be folly to assume that Superman's physical strength feats correspond with his striking power. For example, weightlifters can lift more than boxers but boxers can hit harder. Fortunately for me, Superman has more than enough striking feats of his own to demonstrate that he has superior damage output, distance hitting power and collateral damage from his own strikes than Goku has shown in DBZ. Goku and many other DBZ characters lack the sheer collateral damage and obvious damage output that many comic book powerhouses have shown in their striking feats. To reach that level, one must assume a certain logic of their striking power based on the Goku vs Frieza fight which is what you'll no doubt be doing. For now, I shall present my evidence of Superman's greater striking power over Goku's.

Firstly, this is an in character Superman so rest assured I won't be using the morals off Eclipso possessed Superman who boots Captain Marvel from Metropolis to Hawaii. Nor the bloodlusted Superman from Sacrifice where he hits Wonder Woman from the Sun to the Earth. If I had access to those feats, Goku's chance of edging out on striking power would be even more diminished.

To begin, here is Superman's moon cracking feat during Our Worlds at War. The Black Racer comes to take Steel away and Superman attacks The Black Racer to try and stop him. The results of Superman's punch are very obvious indeed.

And just to discount any notion of The Black Racer causing that, he himself clearly notes that "Your inability to accept these truths has forever scarred the face of this satellite." This means that the massive crack covering over half of the face of the moon is all down to Superman's punch. Sure, Goku's punches have tore apart the wastelands and rocky canyons that most DBZ fights take place in but no mere strike of any DBZ character has made as much damage as this feat. What's more, it's very possible that Superman could have hit harder. How is this possible?

Granted, he had a run up here but this is the kind of striking power Superman is packing. Enough force to obliterate an object that had the exact same mass as the moon (81 billion tons) and was moving at 7,614,000 kmph. I would like to see some reliable striking feat of Goku's beat that.

Further confirmation of Superman's moon busting power can be found in this feat. To set the full context, this comes from a Superman storyline where someone had impersonated Lois, instigated an argument with Superman thus setting tensions between Lois and Clark and had left him too. So Superman goes to the moon to take his frustration out on the celestial object. By the end of the issue, Martian Manhunter pops out to check on Superman and tell him that he still could have knocked the moon out of orbit with 15 more minutes of hitting. But here's what makes this feat the most impressive. Superman was infected with kryptonite poisoning at the time of this feat. I can prove this to you with scans and reviews with detailed synopses if you want but for now, take my word. Superman was poisoned hence his puffing when his stamina is near limitless thanks to constant solar replenishment meaning he doesn't need to eat or sleep. He was ill and his powers were ebbing. Yet he could still muster enough striking power to seriously jeopardise the orbit of the moon over time. And if you don't believe only the writer's word, Martian Manhunter has a genius level intellect and the Watchtower at the time consisted of some of the most advanced technology from many different alien species. I'm pretty sure it could detect if its orbit was threatened by a guy punching the moon.

How about I finish off with a few striking feats in fights to show what foes Superman can take down with his strikes? In this scan, he two shots Mongul, who had knocked Wonder Woman around like a ragdoll prior to this beatdown and would go on to give Hal Jordan trouble in an Infinite Crisis tie in. Yet a ticked off Superman beats down Mongul in two shots then finishes him off with a dose of heat vision. In all honesty, he could have three shotted him IMO.

And now here's now hard Superman can hit in relation to his fellow Kryptonians. I'm missing the first scan of this fight but he puts Non, the Kryptonian brute who went toe to toe with Bizarro in the conclusion of Last Son, up in the air with one strike and then one shots him with the next, knocking the fight and a tooth out of Non.

In my opinion, only one of Goku's striking feats truly matches up to Superman's standards and it's from Battle of the Gods. No doubt you'll use it in your reply. Don't get me wrong, Goku does hit hard but I feel the evidence and analysis provided showcases Superman's striking power superiority.

Durability

Now let's consider durability. Goku's a tough nut to crack to be sure having taken many strong punches and powerful ki attacks in his time. However, when it comes to blunt force trauma and energy projection durability feats, Superman is the king of tanking those. As hard as Goku may try in melee and ranged attacks, I feel there is enough evidence to prove that Superman can endure most of what Goku can throw at him. Let's start with blunt force traumua

Here we have Wonder Woman hitting Superman whilst barely holding back during the Sacrifice arc when Maxwell Lord mind controlled Superman into fighting Wonder Woman. Now Wonder Woman has one shotted nukes, overpowered Power Girl and Supergirl, top tier powerhouses and female Kryptonians, gone toe to toe with monsters and gods of mythology and taken down starships on her own. Yet against Superman, her only strategy even whilst barely holding back is to buy time and keep him off her whilst she frees him from Lord's control. And Superman is taking her blows just fine throughout their entire fight. Only the razor sharp tiara gives him pause. For the record, being bloodlusted does NOT increase Superman's durability. It only means he doesn't hold back and fights totally out of character willing to use lethal and deadly force against his foe.

Next, here is Etrigan decking Superman to the moon. Etrigan has overpowered Wonder Woman and stalemated Lobo on a number of occasions. Yet Superman shrugs off his moon decking punch, jokes about the holiday season and rushes back to face Etrigan.

And finally for blunt force trauma, Superman has easily taken blows from Bizarro, a Superman duplicate who's his physical equal. Here Biazarro punts him into orbit (remember this scan cause you'll see it later as part of a set at some point in the debate)

I don't see Goku being able to seriously damage, gain an edge over or defeat Superman with pure blunt force trauma alone given the blows Superman has endured from more powerful heavy hitters than Goku. So what about Goku's ki attacks? They're a staple of Goku's arsenal from ordinary ki blasts to the Kamehameha. How will Superman fare against those attacks? Here's a taster of what he can shrug off

On numerous occasions, DBZ ki blasts seem to leave nuclear sized blast radius. Well Superman has laughed off nukes many times before. Here's a nuke sized cloud scan and guess who emerges from it unscathed?

Heck Superman has even survived nuclear explosions with kryptonite in them.

In these scans from "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and The American Way?" he tanks a blast from Coldcast that leaves a large mark on Io, a moon of Jupiter.

Excuse me for cutting this durability section short but I assure you, I have some more high end durability feats for Superman saved up for later plus a special trump card I bet won't know about. Stay tuned for that one!

Combat Speed and Reactions

Evidently, Superman's superior strength and striking power won't count for much if he's unable to tag Goku at all. Since I've discussed combat speed with you briefly before and seen your posts on Goku before, I've seen what kinds of arguments you'll bring to the table and I must admit, they've convinced me to put this category in the debatable column. Nonetheless, I intend to prove that Superman is more than able to keep up with Goku during this fight.

To set the scene, here is the kind of control Superman exhibits over his speed explained in this scan. He calculates longitude, latitude, range, subtle pressures within the air currents and inertia. This will enable him to speed up if Goku surprises him in the combat speed department.

For my first combat speed feat, here's Superman setting off hypersonic booms every time he throws a blow in this fight. This is indicative of his hypersonic+ combat speed at the very least.

Next, Superman has moved far faster than people can utter words or even syllables. In this scan, he checks every member of the Legion of Superheroes to be holograms before Power Girl can utter the word "Clark!" Such speed definitely showcases how fast Superman can move whilst in a combat scenario

Finally, this scan has Superman BFRing Parasite before any of the Injustice League can react to him or Luthor can finish saying "Get him!"

You're probably not best pleased that this post is as long as it is so I'll keep Superman's reaction time short by going straight to his best showings. Here's Superman reacting in a nanosecond to an exploding baby

And here he reacts to Faust heat visioning him before he can cast a spell whilst stating his reaction times.

And I have another trick or two up my sleeve in case you make a grand case for Goku's own combat speed and reaction times. But for the most part, I hold the view that these scans demonstrate that Superman can keep up with Goku's own impressive speed feats within a fight thus enabling him to use his physical superiority to overpower Goku.

I have two more advantages I believe Superman has over Goku saved for later. But this makes for my opening Superman post. To summarise

  • Superman is clearly physically superior to Goku in raw physical strength.
  • Superman's striking power showcases a much higher damage output, distance travelled by his hits and collateral damage than Goku's own striking feats.
  • Superman's durability will enable him to tank most of Goku's best hits or most powerful Ki attacks keeping him in the fight.
  • Superman's speed and reactions enable him to keep up with Goku throughout the fight.

Your move @pope052

#36 Edited by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio

@nighthunder @ghostravage Incredible openers from the both of you guys, I hope my opening Superman post matches up this standard. I am actually kind of pleased with it though in all honesty.

EDIT: Bugger it all, it has one flaw, the video isn't working. @pope052 the video is down here (Skip to 5:25)

#37 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

A fantastic opener my friend, and definitely looks fun to counter. Before I begin though, I must say that my partner @nighthunder and his opponent @ghostravage have both provided both excellent and entertaining arguments, and I look forward to seeing their following posts after that.

But first, I must introduce the one that no one in Superman, nor Hulk or Sentry's universe has ever come across before.

Some describe him as "The most powerful being in the universe". Master of martial arts, tournament winner, world-saver, and most importantly a loving & caring father.

He is the only formidable opponent to challenge the legendary, undefeated Mr. Satan. He is the one, and certainly the only...

Son Goku!

Hang on a second.. that ain't right.

There we go,

And just in case some of the viewers here are unfamiliar with Goku, i'll give a short and sweet background rundown.

Cheerful, courageous and also quite naive, Goku is a Saiyan originally sent to Earth as an infant with the mission to destroy it. However, an accident alters his memory, causing him to grow up pure-hearted and later become Earth's greatest defender, as well as the informal leader of the Z Fighters.

Throughout his life, he trains hard and strives to be the greatest warrior possible, while at the same time using his amazing strength, abilities, power and skills to uphold peace.

Now enough of all the irrelevance, let me get onto just why Goku triumphs over the great Superman (who is no match for the great Mr.Satan).

I'll list the advantages each character possess over the other (before you ask, of course i'll elaborate on them):

  • · Strength - Superman
  • · Striking Power - Goku
  • · Combat Speed - Goku
  • · Travel Speed - Superman
  • · Durability - Superman
  • · Versatility - Goku
  • · Stamina - Superman
  • · Fighting Smarts - Goku
  • · Skill - Goku
  • · Power - Goku

Goku - 6, Superman - 4. Goku takes the slight advantage in attributes, but the quality of his attributes are more than enough to counter Superman's attributes.

One more thing though that we need to clear up, .

Power-Scaling Rule:

Goku and Dragon Ball Z characters have Ki which is a life force that determines how powerful each character is. The power scaling rule is the more Ki (higher power level) the more power, strength, speed, stamina durabiity, abilities ect. This differentiates DBZ characters from comics book superhero's like Superman or Captain Marvel, who have different powers, skills, strengths and weaknesses.

That then brings us to theinfamous ABC logic. ABC logic means that:

A character > B character > C character,

That A will always beat C because A beat B. This logic is usually disregarded in comic battles and debates because it is oftentimes faulty. Usually because of special conditions on a character, plot stupidity or some skills can be more effective on certain characters.

However this is not the case in DBZ. DBZ follows the strict power rule that the higher power, the more powerful a character is. This helps DBZ determine how powerful a character is even if they have little feats or screentime.

I Quote an AnimeVice User hitsusatu11*:

In Dragonball if character A can destroy a certain object when he possesses a certain amount of ki than character B can also destroy the same object as long as he has a ki equal to or surpassing character A, regardless of whether or not character B has ever actually destroyed said object.

For example of this principle if Frieza can destroy a planet, then Cell can as well because his power level is greater. Whether or not Cell actually did it. Also to determine power level is mostly based on fights. This also works for durability, speed, strength ect and will always be the case for fighters in DBZ.

Now, both you and I have our differences in opinion on this as does everyone else for that matter. What I quoted from another source, is my opinion on the matter.

In this debate, i'll use power-scaling as little as possible but I can assure you now that it will be used from time to time in this debate. My only reason for using power-scaling is to show the feats that Goku should be able to replicate, but he simply does not as things such as aimlessly destroying a planet don't apply to his personality and conflicts with his morals.

If you would prefer to read only certain parts of the post, press CTRL + F and then type in the following codes to get to a certain section:

  • Strength - STRH
  • Striking Power - STPR
  • Durability - DBTY
  • Combat Speed/Reactions - CBSR
  • Stats - STAT
  • Conclusion - CNCL

To start, i'll provide my response to points that you made about Goku.

Let's start off with your physical strength section:

Strength: (STRH)

Superman is clearly physically superior to Goku in raw physical strength.

I think most if not all DBZ debaters and fans agree with this without question. The feats you provided for Superman are undeniably superior to Goku's ones. However, there are a few things I need to address in your post that I ain't happy with:

The first point you made on SSJ2 Goku VS Kid Buu was filler and didn't happen in the Manga, which you pointed out. That means that you cannot use it against Goku.

Secondly, you went on to bring up the infamous 40 Ton feat and then also mentioned Goku's Katchin Block feat as well, but you stated indirectly that Goku had trouble with both of these:

  • Goku lifting 40 Tons took place in South Kai's Planet where the gravity there is undefined. Therefore, you cannot touch off this feat at all.
  • In regards to the Katchin Block, Goku didn't have any trouble lifting it:

He kept it up perfectly using one hand whilst tapping it with his knuckles with his other free hand. If he had difficulty keeping it up, he wouldn't have been able to hold it with just one hand at all.

Now, I wasn't going to focus on raw lifting strength too much in this debate as Goku doesn't pick things up and throw them at his opponent, he fights them himself. But for the sake of the debate, i'll provide a case:

Goku's Physical Strength:

In Dragon-Ball, a mere teenage Goku battled it out with Piccolo Jr (who was evil at the time). Piccolo transformed into a humongous version of himself:

Judging by the scan and doing some scaling on Piccolo's size he weighs no less than 40 Tons (ask me if you want the explanation), and Goku flipped him by his finger:

That's 40 Tons Goku flipped quite handily, and then I need to account for the rest of Goku's quantifiable training and SSJ Multiplier increases to get a rough guess of his strength:

  • · X100 Times Gravity Training (whilst travelling to Namek)
  • · X50 for SSJ
  • · X2 for SSJ2
  • · X4 for SSJ3

All in all, the total multiplier is 40,000.

Finally, multiplying 40 Tons by 40,000 gives you 1,600,000 (1.6 Million Tons). Not bad, but then again I couldn't care less for the validity of this figure for three reasons:

  • Physical Strength =/= Striking Power, as you pointed out.
  • Superman exceeds Goku in this aspect too much that Goku's overall physical strength is always negligible compared to Superman's. (I even roughly worked out SSJ4 Gogeta's Strength and it's still child's play to Supes).
  • They're battling, not throwing objects at each other or weight-lifting. Physical Strength is not Goku's style either. Goku is more of a Bruce Lee where as Superman is more of a Brock Lesnar.

Also, I know you have your problems with some of my calculations but I do need to account for the SSJ Multipliers and quantifiable Training Increases, or else Goku going Super Saiyan at all would serve no purpose, as SSJ multiplies the aspects of Goku's Base. Ignoring the multipliers would be ignoring the transformations entirely.

It may as well be just Base Goku stripped of SSJ, and Kaioken for that matter if that was the case.

But enough on that, now moving on to Striking Power:

Striking Power (STPR):

In my opinion, only one of Goku's striking feats truly matches up to Superman's standards and it's from Battle of the Gods. No doubt you'll use it in your reply. Don't get me wrong, Goku does hit hard but I feel the evidence and analysis provided showcases Superman's striking power superiority.

While the feats you provided for Superman's Striking Power are definitely going to give Goku a run for his money here, i'm not convinced that he really demonstrated actual superiority to Goku's Striking feats at all for that matter.

I'm not saying they're less impressive, but they haven't demonstrated to be superior, at best they're equal to Goku's:

The first feat, is Superman demonstrating moon-cracking strikes, and so is the second. These feats are undeniable proof that Superman has demonstrated Moon-Busting Striking Power.

Now, the problems I have with these feats is Superman's state after a punch like that:

In the first feat, he looks very dazed and possibly KO'd. In the second, he clearly exerted himself a lot in that instance and as a result, he clearly knocked himself out from a blow like that.

Whilst the feats clearly display the power that Superman's punches pack, they also display how Superman handles punching that hard.

In the scan of Superman two-shotting Mongul, whilst the feat was impressive your explanation didn't make sense. You said that Mongul basically toyed with Wonder Woman and Hal, but that doesn't prove anything in regard to his durability.

It's just like when Cell b!tchslapped Mr. Satan. Cell did it effortlessly but it isn't a feat you can necessarily use for Cell as Satan has no durability feats to seal the quality of Cell's striking power.

Again, in the last feat I have no idea what kind of durability Non has, so I can't take your word for it until you provide what suggests that this is a strong-going feat for Superman.

Don't get me wrong, the feats are impressive and Supes possesses a lot more feats in the aspect than Goku does, but it's about quality not quantity.

And quality, is where Goku really outpunches Superman:

Goku's Striking Power:

The first feat i'm using is in regard to Goku VS Frieza. I'm sure you're already aware of Frieza's uncanny Durability but just to seal impressiveness of Goku's Striking Power, i'll provide the feats for Frieza:

In his absolute weakest form he effortlessly stomped Nail, who is Namek's Strongest Fighter. He is an Earth-Tier Planet-Buster yet Frieza took his hits like nothing:

After 2nd Form Frieza impaled Krillin, an enraged Gohan went all out against (Gohan was a High-Tier Moon-Buster at this point) Frieza, and all that Frieza's face had to say was, "that tickled":

In Final-Form, getting smashed through two mountains didn't even bother Frieza:

Frieza easily deflected a full-power planet-buster from Vegeta:

He even took a full-power Spirit-Bomb from Goku:

Finally, Frieza even survived the explosion of Namek whilst virtually possessing no Ki, and sliced in half:

There, if you read that you'd now have the rough idea of what Frieza can withstand, right? To label his durability, he easily deserves the title of Multi-Planetary Level+.

Now, here is SSJ Goku, crushing Frieza's internal organs and making him cough excessive amounts of blood by punching him:

Goku dealt more damage with a single punch than three planet busters (Nail, Vegeta & Piccolo), and two moon-busters (Krillin & Gohan) could do while exerting their full-power (from their strongest punches, to their most powerful Ki Blasts) and also more damage than planetary level blasts to an actual entire planetary explosion could do to add to all of that.

Frieza himself even stated all that planet-busters could do was deduct a little of his strength. Implying, that they're nothing to him:

That alone, shows that Goku has the sufficient striking power enough to contend with Superman even at that stage of a SSJ (an unstable transformation).

Goku demonstrated the capability of dealing more damage to a being (with proven planetary-level durability feats) by punching him than Superman has demonstrated to deal damage to other beings so far.

So i've shown that Namek Saga SSJ Goku has proven himself to have striking power to give Superman a run for his money. SSJ2 Goku is double that which is more than enough to match or be slightly below Superman in striking power, but then there's SSJ3 which is four times that power.

SSJ3 Goku is above Superman's striking power by a significant margin. And thanks to Toriyama's decision to make Battle of the Gods, I have a feat to prove just that (albeit you already know about):

When Goku went SSJ3 against Bills, he went to punch Bills but the strike was easily avoided and as a result he accidentally punched a hole clean through King Kai's Planet:

Now, you may be thinking "King Kai's Planet is tiny, what makes that feat impressive at all?" Well, what do we know about King Kai's Planet?

King Kai's Planet used to be a lot larger than it's current mini form. Most of it was destroyed, and as a result the planet was granted ten times the amount of gravity that the Earth has:

So.. big deal, a statement. But the thing is, King Kai's Planet possesses two feats that not many people have even noticed:

  • When Goku powered up to SSJ3 on Earth, the planet nearly tore itself apart with the amount of power it was struggling to harness. On King Kai's Planet? It didn't even shake, once.
  • When Frieza blew up Namek's core, the planet exploded within five minutes. When Goku punched out the center of King Kai's Planet, it didn't blow up like Namek did.

Two feats, one which proves that the planet is more durable than Earth, and the second which proves that it's more durable than Namek.

Not to mention, Goku was aiming for Bills and not the planet itself. Meaning that punching and missing Bills blew a hole through a planet was a side effect. If Goku's aim was to destroy the planet entirely by punching it, it's more than fair to say that he could have done so if his aim was to do so.

It's just like if you aim to kick a football at a wall but instead miss and hit a window, it means that if you clearly aimed towards that window it would have been in a worse condition as you are aiming to break it instead of doing it accidentally.

But what intrigues me the most about this feat that puts Goku at an overall superiority to Superman's, is that Goku wasn't even fazed after punching through it. Superman, was definitely KO'd in one of the Moon-Busting feats, and looked to be KO'd or at least very dazed after destroying a moon in the first feat as well.

In fact, Goku and Bill's entire fight on the planet was damaging it throughout, smashing holes into it and such, but it was Goku who did the real damage to it:

And for the record, busting a hole through King Kai's Planet is much more impressive than destroying a Moon entirely. Superman may have destroyed more, but Goku partially did so on a much more durable planet when not even aiming at it in the first place.

Like I said, Quality > Quantity.

Moral of the story, Goku punched through a planet more durable than the Earth, and wasn't even trying to in the first place, plus wasn't even fazed afterwards. Superman destroyed a Moon, causing himself harm and let's be honest it was overall, a less impressive feat.

Now, to move on to Durability:

Durability (DBTY):

I don't see Goku being able to seriously damage, gain an edge over or defeat Superman with pure blunt force trauma alone given the blows Superman has endured from more powerful heavy hitters than Goku.

  • Would Goku defeat Superman with brute force alone? No.
  • Would Goku gain an edge over Superman with brute force alone? Yes, as he is superior in the aspect.
  • Would Goku seriously damage Superman with brute force alone? He'd easily cause Superman deals of pain, but not nearly as much as his energy projection could.

I've shown the feats. Goku was able to cause a lot more damage with a punch, than a couple of Moon-Busters and a few Planet-Busters could do at their max power (exerting their full-force punches, to their full-power Ki Blasts), along with a mountain busting attack and a certified planetary explosion could as well.

At SSJ3, he busted a hole through a planet with durability feats over two much larger planets with much lesser gravity and easily more impressive than Superman's moon-busting feats, by an accident.

Goku's Striking feats are easily more impressive than the characters who Superman tanked hits from in the scans you provided. Whilst Bizzaro punching him into orbit was the one that caught my eye, it doesn't live up to Goku's standard.

So what about Goku's ki attacks? They're a staple of Goku's arsenal from ordinary ki blasts to the Kamehameha. How will Superman fare against those attacks? Here's a taster of what he can shrug off

Ah, certainly. What about Goku's Ki Attacks? Well, this is where the Saiyan truly shines in this battle. Once he realized physical force isn't enough to put down the Man of Steel, he'll soon learn that his Ki Blasts would certainly be the deciding factor here.

Goku's Power Output VS Superman's Durability:

To put it simple, Goku's Power Output advantage over Superman makes Superman's Strength advantage over Goku look.. "cute".

Those two feats you provided of Superman being able to survive nuclear bombs, and/or nuclear-sized blast's radius are nice. But even Piccolo displayed power massively superior to that, when he destroyed the Moon with a single, uncharged blast:

Let's take it up to the planetary level, shall we?

In the Saiyan Saga, Goku displayed the ability of overpowering a planet-busting Galick Gun from Vegeta with a Kaioken X4 Kamehameha:

That proves Goku's Earth-Busting Kamehameha in the Saiyan Saga, in a Kaioken X4. Which is infinitely weaker than a full-powered Super Saiyan 3.

Here's another instance, whilst battling Cell Goku resorted to a Kamehameha, which was stated to blow up the Earth just like he had shown the ability to:

Like you, i'll cut this short as I have a lot more in this aspect that i'd prefer to present later in the debate. But for now, this will do. As they exceed the durability showings that you have presented to me.

Right, now to get onto Goku's Durability:

Goku's Durability:

Goku himself has took nuke-sized radius energy blasts, just like Superman. Except for Goku, what makes it more impressive is that he was merely a teenager:

He also still defeated Piccolo, after having all of his limbs broken and previously took that nuke-sized blast:

This will do for now, it may be very short but I don't want to use my best cards in my opener as that would be unwise.

And lastly, onto Combat Speed:

Combat Speed/Reactions (CBSR):

Superman's speed and reactions enable him to keep up with Goku throughout the fight.

This is Goku's massive advantage in this fight. While you did surprise me with Superman's Combat Speed in the scans you presented (kudos), they're still not enough to put him even over Dragon-Ball Goku in Combat Speed:

In the first scan of Supes calculation longitude, latitude, etc, it's impressive but Goku has calmed his soul, emptied it and learned how to move faster than lightning:

For the second scan, they were not Hyper-Sonic Booms. I read the scan, he merely stated "i'm setting off sonic-booms" which is only breaking the sound barrier. Goku has moved and fought at speeds that are entirely invisible:

Even bullets travel at Mach 1 (which is breaking the sound barrier like Superman did), but Goku was phasing through them and left After-Images since the Red Ribbon Saga:

His fist when punching, is invisible:

He even vanished out of Piccolo's sights after getting smashed into a wall, faster than the blink of an eye:

Third scan, Goku had a similar feat to that as a Kid. He took out two Ninja clones, in an instant:

In the scan of Superman BFR'ing Parasite, it looked like he was flying straight for him which doesn't show show anything about the speed of which he could fight at.

As for reaction speed, well Goku has reacted to and dodged light-speed attacks since the young age of twelve:

A Solar-Flare is light, and therefore moves at light-speed (obviously). In order not to overpower Goku, I won't say he is light speed. However, I will say that he is definitely fast enough to react to light-speed attacks, which he is. Reaction Speed is a crucial aspect of Combat Speed and arguably the most important.

Now i've seen many attempts to degrade this feat, read if you wish:

  • Goku could have easily took off before Tien finished performing the Solar-Flare.

Not at all, if you look closely Tien's eyes were fixed on Goku's position whilst performing the Sun-Flare. Had Goku moved before the attack reached it's climax, Tien would have followed Goku's movements and abandon the attack:

See? Goku was standing still and Tien had his sights focused on Goku, and Goku still avoided the attack. Besides, it's not even in character for Goku to run off before an opponent finished their attack.

Not to mention, there's not a scrap of evidence to back up the claim that Goku took off before the Solar-Flare commenced.

So this argument is the weakest attempt to degrade the feat that i've seen, now onto the next one:

  • Goku merely avoided Tien's perception, and not the attack itself.

Ah, this fits in nicely with my post above. Tien clearly had his eyes fixed on Goku, had Goku moved Tien would have abandoned the attack to go after him. Tien had already proven that Goku could not evade his perception, his eyes were fast enough to follow Goku at all times during their battle:

Then again, no evidence for this claim either. And finally, the last argument:

  • The Solar Flare could possibly have not reached the full effect, and therefore Goku ran away and got Roshi's glasses before the blinding affected him.

This argument is arguably worse than the first one. It is a speculative view of the way the Solar Flare works, nothing more. Speculative attempts to debunk a feat aren't worth considering at all.

And.. again. No evidence, whatsoever.

While these arguments are nice tries, that's all they are, tries. In order to properly debunk a feat, you need evidence to back up your claims. But by all means, go ahead and try to debunk it. Until anyone can, you have to take the feat as it is, which is Goku avoiding a light-speed attack.

That's it for Combat Speed, for now.

Alright, now that i'm done countering your arguments as best I can and providing my own argument within this post. It's nearing it's end and i'll just finish off with two last sections, stats and a conclusion to this post.

I'll be providing a conclusion in each post, and in my very last post in this debate i'll be doing my final stats on Goku, so he'll be gradually getting a lot stronger within the posts as I show the more impressive feats and such. Anyway,

Stats (STAT):

Attribute:Statistic:
Strength:1.6 Million Tons
Striking Power:Planetary Level
Durability:Nuke Level+
Power Output:Planetary Level+
Combat Speed/Reactions:Massively Hyper-Sonic+/ FTL Reactions

Post Conclusion (CNCL):

  • Goku in regular SSJ has proven himself to have the Striking Power to harm Superman, and in SSJ3 has proven to have superior Striking Power to Superman overall.
  • Superman has displayed better durability than Goku (for now), but Goku has displayed the power output to crack his durability.
  • While Superman may be quite fast in Combat Speed, he hasn't presented anything to put him above even Dragon-Ball Goku. Superman may have stated to have better reaction speed, but Goku has the better feats in actual combat in terms of reactions than Superman does (the baby feat was not a combat instance). Not to mention, an in character Superman prefers to tank punches and fight regularly, which is opposite to an in character Goku.
  • In regards to skill, Superman may be quite skilled but Goku is the better of the two and uses his skill in fights unlike Superman for the most part.
  • Goku's ability set (Kaioken, Etc) is overall superior to Superman's.

Ah, god. What a long, and stressful time I had making that post, but absolutely worth it regardless. Your move @lvenger.

#38 Edited by NighThunder (2910 posts) - - Show Bio

So it'd be my turn next?

#39 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Edited by reaverlation (14230 posts) - - Show Bio
#41 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation:

It's only getting started mate, we'll let you know when it's finished.

#42 Posted by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation: It's @nighthunder's turn to post next. See the posting order in posts 7 and 8. Even though this debate might be done faster if everyone posts when they want, it'd be more confusing for the voters to read and so an order makes this easier to follow.

#43 Edited by NighThunder (2910 posts) - - Show Bio

Lets us do dis shiizle x;

Those scans you posted, as compelling and useful as they might be, you didn't show Sentry fighting... Not even once besides him rushing against someone who doesn't have good reflexes, doesn't have good durability and certainly, doesn't have regenerative skills as Hulk, quite far from it to be honest.

  • Inanimate objects don't fight back neither people who wants to be saved. If anything, the first set of scans just proves Sentry does possess a high traveling speed.
  • In the Siege scan he's not speedblizting... He's just going through Asgard's buildings destroying it, he does that the entire issue, not exactly speedblitzing but just flying/tackle towards buildings...
  • The scan with Morgan, isn't Speed Blitz either... Im starting to see a misconception pattern here. Blitz means he needs to land several hits before the target could react, a definition that doesn't match with none of your scans.

  • Speed is speed, and if hulk can't touchsentry, hulk can't smash sentry
  • He's still able to utilizes that speed in bullrushes
  • He's ripping her head, before she can react

He even almost completely stopped Juggernaut's charge... And as you know, you just CAN'T stop the Juggernaut when he has momentum. So yeah, my Inertia makes me incredibly resistant to your tackles, speed blitz, high speed combat, you name it. I'll mention other feats if Sentry miraculously pulls stronger hits than these.

I'll admit, that is absolutely beast. However, i believe the speed advantage shall efficiently allow me, to dodge and counter most of hulks attack without getting hit too much.

  • It's funny you used World War Hulk #5's scans to show Sentry's durability, given the fact that Sentry wasn't Mentally Stable in that instance, which falls directly in his dialogue. Not only Sentry wanted to be beaten and his persona was awfully twisted in the issue after the events in the Civil War, but the fact Sentry is getting stomped by Hulk... Hulk literally punched him 3 times and he already had a disfigured face. Not a very good showing in the first set of scans.
  • Hm, your forgetting that sentry gave no indication of pain or anything of the sort and the face was due to the fact that he was litterally alowwing himself to get hit

  • The scan of Sentry withstanding a nuclear explosion is a bit sketchy. How did you come to the conclusion he was unharmed by the explosion? If anything, everything points out it was a regeneration feat rather than a durability feat, given the time it took Sentry to come back and the whole Archangel dialogue with Scott... Sentry himself even says he doesn't look that good, not that he wasn't harmed.

Sentry flew out of the explosion ad acted fine. If someone walks away from an explosion and asys they don't look good good jokingly, do you think that their hurt? Anywho, its moot point as he didn't say he got obliterated and then reformed. Logic points to him just tanking it, his cloths? Not so much

First we have Hulk's striking force, which has been quite overpowered since classic days... Take for example Incredible Hulk #410, when Professor Hulk takes down walls made out to withstand nuclear strikes with a single punch...

Child's play to tear off this kind of walls... Im using this particular incarnation because both Pak's Hulk and Professor Hulk share the same perk of Bruce Banner's mind being the one in charge. That being said, World War Hulk is a whole new level...

He can literally ground 100+ toners with a single blow while holding back... Note that in this instance, it was his cousin plus he didn't want to harm ANYBODY innocent, which his cousin in particular was... What makes this kind of blows even deadlier is the fact he can channel his Gamma Energy through his punches, Iron Fist/ Skaar style as proven in Incredible Hulks #625

He can punch people through a volcano into several miles away without even trying while being weakened. I'll show more about this striking force later, since this is my opener and im inexplicably impatient to see Lvenger's argument :P

In case you ask for more proof about this attribute, here's a more profound description about it...

Im not sure your getting the point im trying to make man. Yes Hulk is extremely powerful, but what good is it that he can't hit sentry? And to boot, he can teleport

But alright lets say hulk hits him once, sentry still has survived flying in the sun

He's also tanked black bolts whisper

he also has the ability to erect force-fields

further more, he's able to turn invisible

and as for The void thing, well alot of people believe that it was Void, because of the black eyes, but the only indicators for the clear and evil Void are black speech bubbles and very bad intentions, which we did not see in Sentry's and Molecule Man's encounter.

So summarizing this particular factor, Sentry lacks of durability to hang around World War Hulk who FAR exceeds him in that department. This in combination with his striking force, Gamma channeling abilities, Thunderclaps and his overpowered inertia will play too much for any speed or physical advantage you may want to exploit...

Your right in the fact that hulk has better regeneration and durability than Sentry, however that was not the point i was trying to make in my argument. My initial strategy and argument is that Sentry will easily avoid most of hulks attacks and posses enough durability and regeneration to tank hits from him should hulk manage to and a few. And as dor the gamma radiation and thunderclap, they are certainly impressive, however like stated previously, Sentry posses the ability to teleport and can easily exploit it to avoid such beams or thunderclaps.

The "both" implies is not only Sentry's energy projection that is going to shred worlds. Second, it doesn't say it can destroy multiple planets, which is an overstatement to be honest. Im almost positive it meant it could destroy planets, not destroy multiple planets. That's of course ignoring Sentry didn't show such energy projection in the scan, which leaves it as a mere statement. Im open to correction though.

There might be misinterpretation on either of our sides. The scan says the power both of them are spitting out is enough to destroy planets, not the combined energy is enough. And im confused as to where he didn't show energy projection in the scan as he is shown using it at the top part of it.....

  • Not sure how Omni-Directional blasts will help you against Hulk. They are useful against targets you can't directly hit in the first place, not exactly the case with Hulk, just sayin' :P

Ah, at the time i was merely putting that up to simply give examples.

While Sentry INDEED posses huge amounts of energy projection, Hulk on the other hand posses a very high end resistance to it... Take for example World War Hulk #2, where Human Torch and Storm used his best shots to deal with him and he was barely phased by the weak intent...

Erm..while both of them are very powerful, neither of the two are on the level of sentry...or hulk or any other character in this caV for that matter. So while its a good showing, its not very relavent in the current matter of energy projection vs resistance.

A beam powerful enough to pretty much own Jen Walters to the ground effortlessly, what makes it even a cooler feat is the fact he put Silver Surfer down for a prolonged time in Incredible Hulk #416 with the same strategy he applied on Hulk in this instance, which was syphoning Hulk's energy to counter him... On top of that, Hulk, as ridiculous as it may sound, is susceptible to huge amounts of Gamma Radiation... Which is the syphoned beam Arma'Cheddon was using in Incredible Hulk #632.

So basically, hulk survived his own gama radiation sent back at him? Very impressive, however sentry's energy emission is enough to destroy planets.

'd like to mention those scans of yours with Sentry being punched by Hulk as well... Not only Hulk took the HUGE amounts of Sentry's energy projection while holding back, but there was a hint of energy manipulation by Hulk's part as well...

He's literally grabbing the energy and moving upwards... Not to mention he pretty much fights Sentry while floating, more likely manipulating Sentry's own energy projection throughout the whole issue... Perks... Perks everywhere... ;)

I personally doubt he was actually grabbing energy. I myself do not have the issue so i may need to see the pages afterwards or before that. That and other sans of him grabbing and manipulating energy like you proposed.

#44 Edited by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@nighthunder: Sorry for pushing things around mate, check your PMs and you'll see what we're planning to do.

Anyway,

  • Speed is speed, and if hulk can't touchsentry, hulk can't smash sentry
  • He's still able to utilizes that speed in bullrushes
  • He's ripping her head, before she can react

Love bullet points, makes it a LOT easier to counter...

  • Speed is irrelevant on your offensive potential if you can't even harm me, which is what you really need in order to beat me... Hell, to beat anyone. That being said, if the battle prolongs it would solely benefit me, the same can't be said about you.
  • As i said, tackles and bullrushes are not a very good tactic agains Hulk... It's has been proven time and time again that's one of the worst strategies you can opt to utilize... Let me show you...

Even as Grey Hulk his inertia is horribly overpowered... As proven in Hulk Smash Avengers #4

As you can see, a 100+ toner with 50,000 and above feats like Wonder Man while flying at high speed could barely move him while he was in by far, his weakest incarnation. Not to mention, in the same issue, Iron Man didn't move him at all... Let alone bear hugging him into helplessness.

2 times with 100+ toners, why would Sentry be any different when he's fighting by far, his strongest incarnation? From this point im positive, tackles mean squat against the Green Scar and relying on it would only shorten the time it would take him to stomp Sentry.

  • I could punch someone in the head from behind without him noticing me at first, would it count as Speedblitz? Not exactly.

===========================================================================================

I'll admit, that is absolutely beast. However, i believe the speed advantage shall efficiently allow me, to dodge and counter most of hulks attack without getting hit too much.

Agree, Hulk is a beast. Anyway, the problem with your tactic is, the only thing you can really do with speed is dodge, there isn't a real way to phase Hulk significantly when he pretty much overpowers Sentry's damage output solely by durability, let alone his even more overpowered regeneration factor to add on his already top notch durability.

The fact that you're already conceding in Hulk tagging Sentry a few times is giving me the win for sure, since i already showed what Hulk can do while holding back and without using his canalizing abilities on Sentry's face. What real counter do you have for Hulk's overall supremacy in physical matters? I'll gladly wait for your durability feats.

  • Hm, your forgetting that sentry gave no indication of pain or anything of the sort and the face was due to the fact that he was litterally alowwing himself to get hit

It doesn't matter if he didn't show any kind of pain, which he actually showed given the fact he asked for more then said "that's it" implying he needed that pain to finally be "angry/excited/twisted... you name it" to cut loose. I can put a lot of anesthesia in my mouth then rip off my teeth and feel nothing, but that doesn't mean the harm isn't there.

If anything, as i said before, the instance just benefits me because it shows how easily Hulk bypassed Sentry's invulnerability with 1 punch. Honestly, i would restrain myself from using such issue for reference given Hulk was pretty much owning him while holding back.

Sentry flew out of the explosion ad acted fine. If someone walks away from an explosion and asys they don't look good good jokingly, do you think that their hurt? Anywho, its moot point as he didn't say he got obliterated and then reformed. Logic points to him just tanking it, his cloths? Not so much

He doesn't need to say he got obliterated and then reformed if his dialogue implies he was hurt at the very least. Not to mention, you do have feats to showcase Sentry's durability instead of that one that doesn't hold much and it's merely left for the readers interpretation, in other words, yes, it is a moot point.

Im not sure your getting the point im trying to make man. Yes Hulk is extremely powerful, but what good is it that he can't hit sentry? And to boot, he can teleport

Im getting it, and he will tag Sentry eventually, actually, he's going to tag him several times because the only way Sentry has to harm Hulk involves a physical approach in which Hulk will put his hands on him rather easily, all of this is reinforced by the fact Sentry can't really harm Hulk that way, which would mean Hulk will be barely annoyed by those hits and will be able to react rather fast to grab him.

As for the Teleport ability, he has never used that ability in combat, let alone being completely useless if he can't teleport short distances "Nightcrawler" style.

But alright lets say hulk hits him once, sentry still has survived flying in the sun

Im not sure how surviving in the sun relates to being resistant to blunt/physical harm. If anything, Sentry tried to kill himself by flying to the sun, so he just needed to go a little further for the heat to start kicking in. Not exactly a relevant feat... Impressive nonetheless.

He's also tanked black bolts whisper

So has Savage Hulk in classic days in Incredible Hulk Annual #1, when he was barely a shadow of what current and modern Savage Hulk are as far as durability goes, let alone Pak's Hulk. Not to mention it was literally at point blank, which is more impressive than being partially far away from him as he was in Silent Wars.

further more, he's able to turn invisible

I don't know why you bring such ability if Sentry has never used it before... Not even in the same issue where it was mentioned he used it. I could easily discard such ability since he has 0 feats/instances with it.

he also has the ability to erect force-fields

This is probably your best card so far... However, how strong were those Terrax's blasts... Im almost positive Sentry hasn't used those force fields in a physical fight either. So it's up to you to show if he really does that in-character, let alone in a fight that solely involves physical damage.

and as for The void thing, well alot of people believe that it was Void, because of the black eyes, but the only indicators for the clear and evil Void are black speech bubbles and very bad intentions, which we did not see in Sentry's and Molecule Man's encounter.

It is not a believe... Void took over most of Sentry's persona in Dark Avengers #13 to forwardly be revealed in Dark Avengers #14 when Osborn approached him after he was killing a bunch of people...

You wanted black speech bubbles with black eyes? You got them. It worths to note this happened 3 days before the Siege. So again, you're not performing those feats mate.

The fact that he wasn't talking in black speech bubbles in his encounter with Molecule Man was because Void didn't took over Sentry, but Sentry tapped into Void's side, which again, it's against the rules in this thread.

Your right in the fact that hulk has better regeneration and durability than Sentry, however that was not the point i was trying to make in my argument. My initial strategy and argument is that Sentry will easily avoid most of hulks attacks and posses enough durability and regeneration to tank hits from him should hulk manage to and a few. And as dor the gamma radiation and thunderclap, they are certainly impressive, however like stated previously, Sentry posses the ability to teleport and can easily exploit it to avoid such beams or thunderclaps.

Hulk has a very large advantage in those 2 departments and he is strong enough to make Sentry feel it HARD staggering him in place the moment he connects, allowing him to land a barrage of punches on him. I disagree about Sentry avoiding most of Hulk's attacks playing as a winner strategy. Hulk has been tagging speedsters since classic days. With his mind, that stated by Cho works the same as his in Incredible Hulk #110, Hulk will prove more than capable of tagging Sentry several times as he has done various times against speedsters like Quicksilver and Blue Kelso just to mention a few...

He just knows where to hit because of his brain. That being said, the best tactic against Speedsters is wait for them to come close your range of attack and predict them, which will prove immensely easy for Hulk given his mentioned calculating attribute along with his already incredibly high intellect, strategist mind and cunning as he proved while fighting the X-Men...

And as i said earlier, Sentry's teleportation abilities are rather unpractical if he can't perform them as Nightcrawler, say, in short combat distances to keep the pressure as well as quite fast. AoE attacks still stand, Sentry has no means to avoid Thunderclaps amped by energy that travels at the speed of light.

There might be misinterpretation on either of our sides. The scan says the power both of them are spitting out is enough to destroy planets, not the combined energy is enough. And im confused as to where he didn't show energy projection in the scan as he is shown using it at the top part of it.....

There isn't any misinterpretation, the statements are as clear as water. Why mentioning them both if each one of them could make planets explode? It was because it was the combined energy projection that could've done that. And i said he wasn't showing that energy projection since there were no planets being destroyed and it was merely a text box of Captain America's statements. As far as that feat goes, it is just a statement with an implication that still lacks the graphic proof. In other words Character to Character overhyping.

Erm..while both of them are very powerful, neither of the two are on the level of sentry...or hulk or any other character in this caV for that matter. So while its a good showing, its not very relavent in the current matter of energy projection vs resistance.

What energy projection feats do you have for Sentry that makes the combined energy of these 2 irrelevant? Not to mention Human Torch could generate the same heat as the first layers of the sun, which conveniently was the kind of heat that almost killed Sentry back in Dark Avengers #13 and Ororo can and has affected Hulk's brain function in the past with lightning, yet it proved useless against him, they couldn't even phase him enough for him to become "that" angry. If anything, while they're might be inferior to Sentry, the fact that Hulk shrugged off their attacks so easily is still a relevant benchmark to showcase Hulk's energy projection resistance while being exponentially behind World Breaker Hulk.

So basically, hulk survived his own gama radiation sent back at him? Very impressive, however sentry's energy emission is enough to destroy planets.

It is, but it falls incredibly short to what he tanked effortlessly before that instance in Incredible Hulks #616...

He took a Old Power energy projection from an enraged Hiro-Kala at point blank several times without much trouble, ultimately shrugging it off. What makes this feat awesomely legit is the fact Hiro-Kala's Old Power increases with rage. This is forwardly stated in Son of Hulk #19...

As mentioned by him, both his brother's control over Old Power as well as his father's power generated by anger flows through him. But to make emphasis in your "mere statement" instance... Hiro-Kala actually has planetary feats with his energy projection as proven in Incredible Hulks #617 when he was fighting Skaar.

His energy projection is breaking K'ai, a planet from the microverse, note how effortlessly he's doing it yet he couldn't damage Hulk enough to even phase him significantly. This is how it looked from Earth...

So to put it simple, Hulk shrugged off energy-based attacks from someone who can break planets without much trouble actually shown on panel... Not exactly what you've shown which is just a mere statement and a planet is not shown to be highly affected like my instance. It worths to note, the planet was significantly far from Earth and the Moon by the moment this picture took place.

I personally doubt he was actually grabbing energy. I myself do not have the issue so i may need to see the pages afterwards or before that. That and other sans of him grabbing and manipulating energy like you proposed.

He must have been grabbing it since he used it to reach him up there in the sky...

To summarize...

  • My points still stand, Sentry doesn't have the durability and strength to hang around Hulk.
  • Hulk will tag him several times which will be Sentry's downfall.
  • It is a matter of time, Sentry would only serve as a diversion which will be overpowered eventually.
  • Hulk beats Sentry into unconsciousness and helps Superman.

Your turn @lvenger

#45 Edited by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio

A fascinating and intriguing first counter from you Pope and I’ll enjoy responding to it. Firstly though, you’d better brace yourself because I’ve already had the time to fully write this counter and it’s going to be a long one given what answers I have to give to you.

@pope052 said:

Now enough of all the irrelevance, let me get onto just why Goku triumphs over the great Superman (who is no match for the great Mr.Satan).

I'll list the advantages each character possess over the other (before you ask, of course i'll elaborate on them):

  • · Strength - Superman
  • · Striking Power - Goku
  • · Combat Speed - Goku
  • · Travel Speed - Superman
  • · Durability - Superman
  • · Versatility - Superman
  • · Stamina - Superman
  • · Fighting Smarts - Goku
  • · Skill - Goku
  • · Power - Goku

Goku - 6, Superman - 4. Goku takes the slight advantage in attributes, but the quality of his attributes are more than enough to counter Superman's attributes.

The ones I’ve bolded are advantages I disagree on and feel really belong to Superman as my opening post and rebuttals will demonstrate. Also, I shall exclude travel speed since it isn’t that useful in the fight and for now at least, allow Goku the edge in combat speed since I still have feats which can level the playing field. Based on my interpretation, that makes the score Goku – 4, Superman – 6 and the italics mean I believe Superman’s strategic thinking and powers to be more than a match for Goku’s fighting instincts and natural Saiyan abilities. But I shall come to Superman’s versatility and strategy later in the debate. This only gives Superman a slight advantage in abilities but as I intend to prove throughout the debate, these advantages make Superman too well rounded a foe for Goku to overcome.

@pope052 said:

One more thing though that we need to clear up, .

Power-Scaling Rule:

Goku and Dragon Ball Z characters have Ki which is a life force that determines how powerful each character is. The power scaling rule is the more Ki (higher power level) the more power, strength, speed, stamina durabiity, abilities ect. This differentiates DBZ characters from comics book superhero's like Superman or Captain Marvel, who have different powers, skills, strengths and weaknesses.

That then brings us to theinfamous ABC logic. ABC logic means that:

A character > B character > C character,

That A will always beat C because A beat B. This logic is usually disregarded in comic battles and debates because it is oftentimes faulty. Usually because of special conditions on a character, plot stupidity or some skills can be more effective on certain characters.

However this is not the case in DBZ. DBZ follows the strict power rule that the higher power, the more powerful a character is. This helps DBZ determine how powerful a character is even if they have little feats or screentime.

I Quote an AnimeVice User hitsusatu11*:

In Dragonball if character A can destroy a certain object when he possesses a certain amount of ki than character B can also destroy the same object as long as he has a ki equal to or surpassing character A, regardless of whether or not character B has ever actually destroyed said object.

For example of this principle if Frieza can destroy a planet, then Cell can as well because his power level is greater. Whether or not Cell actually did it. Also to determine power level is mostly based on fights. This also works for durability, speed, strength ect and will always be the case for fighters in DBZ.

Now, both you and I have our differences in opinion on this as does everyone else for that matter. What I quoted from another source, is my opinion on the matter.

In this debate, i'll use power-scaling as little as possible but I can assure you now that it will be used from time to time in this debate. My only reason for using power-scaling is to show the feats that Goku should be able to replicate, but he simply does not as things such as aimlessly destroying a planet don't apply to his personality and conflicts with his morals.

When expressed in this form, I admit power scaling seems much more reasonable. Unfortunately, the problems with using such logic can often spiral out of control if this form of reasoning is used to assume certain characters can perform specific feats without a shred of proof or any form of on panel indication that such a feat is within their reach. That is the problem with using power scaling in my opinion but since it’s essential to some arguments in DBZ feats and logic, that’s fine for this debate and I will only make as minor criticisms of it as possible.

@pope052 said:

Let's start off with your physical strength section:

Strength: (STRH)

Superman is clearly physically superior to Goku in raw physical strength.

I think most if not all DBZ debaters and fans agree with this without question. The feats you provided for Superman are undeniably superior to Goku's ones. However, there are a few things I need to address in your post that I ain't happy with:

The first point you made on SSJ2 Goku VS Kid Buu was filler and didn't happen in the Manga, which you pointed out. That means that you cannot use it against Goku.

Secondly, you went on to bring up the infamous 40 Ton feat and then also mentioned Goku's Katchin Block feat as well, but you stated indirectly that Goku had trouble with both of these:

  • Goku lifting 40 Tons took place in South Kai's Planet where the gravity there is undefined. Therefore, you cannot touch off this feat at all.
  • In regards to the Katchin Block, Goku didn't have any trouble lifting it:

He kept it up perfectly using one hand whilst tapping it with his knuckles with his other free hand. If he had difficulty keeping it up, he wouldn't have been able to hold it with just one hand at all.

Now, I wasn't going to focus on raw lifting strength too much in this debate as Goku doesn't pick things up and throw them at his opponent, he fights them himself. But for the sake of the debate, i'll provide a case:

Goku's Physical Strength:

In Dragon-Ball, a mere teenage Goku battled it out with Piccolo Jr (who was evil at the time). Piccolo transformed into a humongous version of himself:

Judging by the scan and doing some scaling on Piccolo's size he weighs no less than 40 Tons (ask me if you want the explanation), and Goku flipped him by his finger:

That's 40 Tons Goku flipped quite handily, and then I need to account for the rest of Goku's quantifiable training and SSJ Multiplier increases to get a rough guess of his strength:

  • · X100 Times Gravity Training (whilst travelling to Namek)
  • · X50 for SSJ
  • · X2 for SSJ2
  • · X4 for SSJ3

All in all, the total multiplier is 40,000.

Finally, multiplying 40 Tons by 40,000 gives you 1,600,000 (1.6 Million Tons). Not bad, but then again I couldn't care less for the validity of this figure for three reasons:

  • Physical Strength =/= Striking Power, as you pointed out.
  • Superman exceeds Goku in this aspect too much that Goku's overall physical strength is always negligible compared to Superman's. (I even roughly worked out SSJ4 Gogeta's Strength and it's still child's play to Supes).
  • They're battling, not throwing objects at each other or weight-lifting. Physical Strength is not Goku's style either. Goku is more of a Bruce Lee where as Superman is more of a Brock Lesnar.

Also, I know you have your problems with some of my calculations but I do need to account for the SSJ Multipliers and quantifiable Training Increases, or else Goku going Super Saiyan at all would serve no purpose, as SSJ multiplies the aspects of Goku's Base. Ignoring the multipliers would be ignoring the transformations entirely.

It may as well be just Base Goku stripped of SSJ, and Kaioken for that matter if that was the case.

But enough on that, now moving on to Striking Power:

I had remembered this feat hours after posting my first comment but I decided to allow you to bring it up in this post. Evidently, you show that it’s the most reliable interpretation of what Goku’s physical strength can be estimated to be. And you are correct that 1.6 million tons is mere child’s play to Superman. However, for the sake of the debate, I shall put physical strength beyond any reasonable doubt as being squarely in Superman’s corner.

And I may as well do it with Superman’s best strength feat. Pulling the Earth against Starbreaker willing it towards the sun with Hal Jordan’s help.

Unlike Death Battle, I won’t ignore the blatant on panel statements that Hal is contributing to this feat as much as Superman is. But to be reasonable in what Superman’s strength can be estimated at in performing this feat, let’s say both Superman and Hal are contributing 50/50 to the total force of moving the Earth. I think that’s reasonalble given the exertion we can see on both Superman and Hal’s faces when they perform this feat. Now the force needed to move an object out of the sun’s orbit by 1% is approximately 1000 times less than the object’s mass. The Earth weighs in at nearly 6.6 sextillion tons and thanks to a previous calculation, this means both Superman and Hal Jordan were producing 6.6 quintillion tons of force to move the Earth against Starbreaker’s will. But since I’m accounting for this being a joint feat coupled with estimating that both Superman and Hal Jordan contributed to half the effort each, I shall divide this figure by 2. This still means Superman can move 3.3 quintillion tons. That’s 18 zeros by the way.

@pope052 said:

While the feats you provided for Superman's Striking Power are definitely going to give Goku a run for his money here, i'm not convinced that he really demonstrated actual superiority to Goku's Striking feats at all for that matter.

I'm not saying they're less impressive, but they haven't demonstrated to be superior, at best they're equal to Goku's:

The first feat, is Superman demonstrating moon-cracking strikes, and so is the second. These feats are undeniable proof that Superman has demonstrated Moon-Busting Striking Power.

Now, the problems I have with these feats is Superman's state after a punch like that:

In the first feat, he looks very dazed and possibly KO'd. In the second, he clearly exerted himself a lot in that instance and as a result, he clearly knocked himself out from a blow like that.

Whilst the feats clearly display the power that Superman's punches pack, they also display how Superman handles punching that hard.

This point misses a critical factor weakening your overall claim. Superman was travelling at near light speed already whilst making the hit on the shadow moon. Along with the shadow moon also travelling at an alarming rate towards Earth, this is what ended up KOing him. In the scans I show of him moon busting, he’s perfectly fine and shows little fatigue in performing a moon busting feat. So my assertion that Superman is definitely a moon buster in striking power without KOing himself remains intact given the evidence provided. It'll become clear that Superman can handle how hard he hits perfectly fine.

@pope052 said:

In the scan of Superman two-shotting Mongul, whilst the feat was impressive your explanation didn't make sense. You said that Mongul basically toyed with Wonder Woman and Hal, but that doesn't prove anything in regard to his durability.

It's just like when Cell b!tchslapped Mr. Satan. Cell did it effortlessly but it isn't a feat you can necessarily use for Cell as Satan has no durability feats to seal the quality of Cell's striking power.

Again, in the last feat I have no idea what kind of durability Non has, so I can't take your word for it until you provide what suggests that this is a strong-going feat for Superman.

Don't get me wrong, the feats are impressive and Supes possesses a lot more feats in the aspect than Goku does, but it's about quality not quantity.

And quality, is where Goku really outpunches Superman:

Superman two shotting Mongul demonstrates what kind of opponents Superman can lay down with his striking power. Mongul Jr inherited his father’s strength and durability and proved to be more of a match for Superman than his father at times given that Mongul Jr was involved in training Superman for Our Worlds at War or Imperiex's invasion. Yet Superman surpassed him in power and versatility and my scan shows just how easily Superman could take down Mongul in his prime. Mongul tanked Hal Jordan’s attacks during the Infinite Crisis tie in I cited earlier so that’s why Superman taking him down so easily is a good striking feat in my opinion.

@pope052 said:

Goku's Striking Power:

The first feat i'm using is in regard to Goku VS Frieza. I'm sure you're already aware of Frieza's uncanny Durability but just to seal impressiveness of Goku's Striking Power, i'll provide the feats for Frieza:

In his absolute weakest form he effortlessly stomped Nail, who is Namek's Strongest Fighter. He is an Earth-Tier Planet-Buster yet Frieza took his hits like nothing:

After 2nd Form Frieza impaled Krillin, an enraged Gohan went all out against (Gohan was a High-Tier Moon-Buster at this point) Frieza, and all that Frieza's face had to say was, "that tickled":

In Final-Form, getting smashed through two mountains didn't even bother Frieza:

Frieza easily deflected a full-power planet-buster from Vegeta:

He even took a full-power Spirit-Bomb from Goku:

Finally, Frieza even survived the explosion of Namek whilst virtually possessing no Ki, and sliced in half:

There, if you read that you'd now have the rough idea of what Frieza can withstand, right? To label his durability, he easily deserves the title of Multi-Planetary Level+.

I figured you’d start with the Frieza comparison. However, allow me to begin this counter by analysing your feats. Most notably, there is no proof Nail was an Earth tier buster. He looks like he’s going all out against Frieza’s first form but his single strike and energy attack were no trouble for Frieza at all. Unless you’re going to use the logic that Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga could ‘destroy the Earth’ which I shall deal with later when you do use that feat, I fail to see how you can justify Nail being an Earth buster. The same applies to Gohan. His Ki blasts encompassed a nuke blast radius at best, hardly enough to justify that Gohan was a moon tier buster in his Ki attacks. Gohan may have had a power boost on Namek but this analysis shows it was not enough for him to bust moons. Next, Frieza deflecting Vegeta’s ‘planet busting attack’ can be dealt with as follows. Firstly, the key to Vegeta’s attack being planet busting is only Piccolo’s fearful cry that Vegeta may bust the planet. Thus this feat lacks a significant basis to justify it being a planet busting move. Secondly, Frieza’s deflecting it was clearly an act of ki manipulation as DBZ characters can deflect opponent’s Ki attacks. I’m sure I don’t need to prove this to you. This enables them to avoid getting hit by those energy blasts, thus meaning it was an act of Ki manipulation and nothing physical on Frieza’s part. Finally, Goku’s Full Power Spirit Bomb was only charged by life in the nearby solar system and perhaps outlying areas due to the scarcity of living organisms within Namek’s vicinity in space. So clearly, it did not pack as much of a punch as Goku’s Earth Spirit bomb in the Buu Saga did with energy drawn from the Earth and from humans giving it willingly. So this critique lessens the impact these feats hold for your striking power case,

@pope052 said:

Now, here is SSJ Goku, crushing Frieza's internal organs and making him cough excessive amounts of blood by punching him:

Goku dealt more damage with a single punch than three planet busters (Nail, Vegeta & Piccolo), and two moon-busters (Krillin & Gohan) could do while exerting their full-power (from their strongest punches, to their most powerful Ki Blasts) and also more damage than planetary level blasts to an actual entire planetary explosion could do to add to all of that.

Frieza himself even stated all that planet-busters could do was deduct a little of his strength. Implying, that they're nothing to him:

That alone, shows that Goku has the sufficient striking power enough to contend with Superman even at that stage of a SSJ (an unstable transformation).

Goku demonstrated the capability of dealing more damage to a being (with proven planetary-level durability feats) by punching him than Superman has demonstrated to deal damage to other beings so far.

This kind of basis for Goku’s striking power is only possible if we accept a certain predicate which I feel is flawed in utilising to justify Goku having planet busting striking power in his SSJ form. In my opening post, I distinguished between blunt force and energy projection/explosion based durability feats. Physical attacks are focused on a pinpoint single target which in Goku’s case was Frieza. In contrast, a planet explosion produces a burst of energy spreading out from the explosion and encompassing the projected blast radius. These are two different kinds of attacks unless it is absolutely clear it was a punch that caused the planet to explode that certain feats have shown. Bearing this mind, I believe it is now crystal clear that the parameters of Goku’s physical strikes cannot be likened to the energy output of an exploding planet. Just because Frieza has a high energy projection durability, that clearly differs from his ability to soak up blunt force of which Goku could produce the necessary force in the Super Saiyain form. The logic entailed in following these premises is faulty and does not contain the destructive impact nor distance travelled from the strike that Superman has shown at a superior rate to Goku in the feats I have given for him. Granted, Goku did hit hard enough to bypass Frieza’s durability but this is now evident that it does not make him anywhere near a planet buster nor able to contend with Superman in striking power. Now time for some calculations of my own.

The force needed to blow up moon would be about 592.6 billion Tsar bombs. The Tsar bomb is the most powerful nuclear device ever created and releases 210,000 Terra Joules of energy. And several billion of the most powerful nuclear bombs created would be needed to blow up the moon. And yet Superman has three on panel moon busting feats. The one where he cracks the moon in half (done for the sake of easy calculation even though it’s clearly more than 50% of the moon that’s been damaged) which would require the force of 296 (to ignore the .6) billion Tsar bombs. He’s also flown through one of Saturn’s dead moons splitting it in half

Look, you can clearly see the moon being totally cut in half by Superman's punch. And does he look KOed or fatigued to you in the slightest? This is even more concrete and undeniable proof that Superman is not only definitely a moon buster in striking power but that he can handle those punches just fine.And that's not scratching the surface of the full force listed above that Superman would have produced in the least during the actual moon busting feat itself.

Given my own calculations made in contrast to the 3 on panel striking feats for Superman, I would like to see a reliable striking feat of Goku’s overpower what I’ve shown for Superman here.

@pope052 said:

So i've shown that Namek Saga SSJ Goku has proven himself to have striking power to give Superman a run for his money. SSJ2 Goku is double that which is more than enough to match or be slightly below Superman in striking power, but then there's SSJ3 which is four times that power.

SSJ3 Goku is above Superman's striking power by a significant margin. And thanks to Toriyama's decision to make Battle of the Gods, I have a feat to prove just that (albeit you already know about):

When Goku went SSJ3 against Bills, he went to punch Bills but the strike was easily avoided and as a result he accidentally punched a hole clean through King Kai's Planet:

Now, you may be thinking "King Kai's Planet is tiny, what makes that feat impressive at all?" Well, what do we know about King Kai's Planet?

King Kai's Planet used to be a lot larger than it's current mini form. Most of it was destroyed, and as a result the planet was granted ten times the amount of gravity that the Earth has:

So.. big deal, a statement. But the thing is, King Kai's Planet possesses two feats that not many people have even noticed:

  • When Goku powered up to SSJ3 on Earth, the planet nearly tore itself apart with the amount of power it was struggling to harness. On King Kai's Planet? It didn't even shake, once.
  • When Frieza blew up Namek's core, the planet exploded within five minutes. When Goku punched out the center of King Kai's Planet, it didn't blow up like Namek did.

Two feats, one which proves that the planet is more durable than Earth, and the second which proves that it's more durable than Namek.

Not to mention, Goku was aiming for Bills and not the planet itself. Meaning that punching and missing Bills blew a hole through a planet was a side effect. If Goku's aim was to destroy the planet entirely by punching it, it's more than fair to say that he could have done so if his aim was to do so.

It's just like if you aim to kick a football at a wall but instead miss and hit a window, it means that if you clearly aimed towards that window it would have been in a worse condition as you are aiming to break it instead of doing it accidentally.

But what intrigues me the most about this feat that puts Goku at an overall superiority to Superman's, is that Goku wasn't even fazed after punching through it. Superman, was definitely KO'd in one of the Moon-Busting feats, and looked to be KO'd or at least very dazed after destroying a moon in the first feat as well.

In fact, Goku and Bill's entire fight on the planet was damaging it throughout, smashing holes into it and such, but it was Goku who did the real damage to it:

And for the record, busting a hole through King Kai's Planet is much more impressive than destroying a Moon entirely. Superman may have destroyed more, but Goku partially did so on a much more durable planet when not even aiming at it in the first place.

Like I said, Quality > Quantity.

Moral of the story, Goku punched through a planet more durable than the Earth, and wasn't even trying to in the first place, plus wasn't even fazed afterwards. Superman destroyed a Moon, causing himself harm and let's be honest it was overall, a less impressive feat.

I must concede, this is definitely Goku’s best striking feat and you justify it well. There’s a solid explanation centring on the 10x gravity on King Kai’s planet and I can’t really do much more than nitpick at it which I may do later if I can’t think of anything else. This definitely makes it your best feat showcasing Goku’s striking power. However, when it comes to contrasting it with Superman’s striking power, your analysis lacks a crucial understanding of the crux of my feat. As I have demonstrated above, Superman speeding towards the shadow moon at light speed is what KOed him, not the moon busting punch itself. His ease of moon busting in the other two feats provided demonstrate his lack of exertion performing them. This illustrates that as well as possessing a greater number of striking feats over Goku, Superman also outranks him in most quality striking feats too. All Goku has to contend with Superman's striking power is the feat outlined above thus far. Besides if Superman ever used that specific moon busting punch on Goku, it would take Goku down for certain given its full force and Goku’s lack of high end blunt force durability feats. Fortunately for me, I’ve shown how Superman can moon bust without travelling at light speed and so I maintain the view that Superman’s striking feats are still more impressive than most of Goku’s. So unfortunately your last claim doesn't hold much bearing given my overall analysis

@pope052 said:

Durability (DBTY):

I don't see Goku being able to seriously damage, gain an edge over or defeat Superman with pure blunt force trauma alone given the blows Superman has endured from more powerful heavy hitters than Goku.

  • Would Goku defeat Superman with brute force alone? No.
  • Would Goku gain an edge over Superman with brute force alone? Yes, as he is superior in the aspect.
  • Would Goku seriously damage Superman with brute force alone? He'd easily cause Superman deals of pain, but not nearly as much as his energy projection could.

  • Indeed, I do agree there.
  • I’m afraid not since unless the foe he’s fighting is greatly above his physical strength level or is at least a confirmed teambuster, it’s nigh impossible to put Superman down with pure physical force. My scans show the heaviest hitters in the DC Universe failing to significantly harm Superman with their striking force so I fail to see how Goku will fare any better than they will against Superman toe to toe.
  • As for the Bizarro punch, I can definitely assure you it is up to Goku’s standards. Bizarro has tossed celestial bodies together to make his infamous square shaped Bizarro world and was created during the Emperor Joker arc as a duplicate of Superman rivalling him in the physicality department. If this argument is not enough then here’s a superior scan showcasing Superman’s sheer resistance to blunt force.

Here Bizarro punches him through to the other side of the Earth. That’s all the way through its core and out the other side. Now although Joker’s reality warping powers at the time are responsible for the images seen, I strongly assert that they played no part in Bizarro’s punch on Superman. That was all Bizarro performing the punch and Superman tanking it. This is an even more impressive feat that strengthens my point that Superman can tank Goku’s hits without notable concern over them seriously hurting him.

Forgive me for skipping your own post on Goku’s durability but there’s a lot to get through in my first reply to your counter and I’m guessing you haven’t played Goku’s best durability feats yet just like me.

@pope052 said:

Goku's Power Output VS Superman's Durability:

To put it simple, Goku's Power Output advantage over Superman makes Superman's Strength advantage over Goku look.. "cute".

Those two feats you provided of Superman being able to survive nuclear bombs, and/or nuclear-sized blast's radius are nice. But even Piccolo displayed power massively superior to that, when he destroyed the Moon with a single, uncharged blast:

Let's take it up to the planetary level, shall we?

In the Saiyan Saga, Goku displayed the ability of overpowering a planet-busting Galick Gun from Vegeta with a Kaioken X4 Kamehameha:

That proves Goku's Earth-Busting Kamehameha in the Saiyan Saga, in a Kaioken X4. Which is infinitely weaker than a full-powered Super Saiyan 3.

This’ll be one of the trickiest parts of the debate, Goku’s energy output vs Superman’s durability. Obviously you have put forward the view that Goku’s energy output will be able to bypass Superman’s durability eventually. With the moon busting feats, DBZ is well known for heavily abusing cinematic time just like Broly’s supposed galaxy busting feat in his first DBZ film appearance. Take into consideration the long charge up time for Goku’s more powerful Kamehamehas in both Goku/Vegeta’s beam struggle and Goku’s Instant Kamehameha on Cell and Superman being fast and aggressive enough to keep Goku fighting in close quarters and Goku won’t get the time to power up his Ki attacks as much as he needs to hurt Superman. Now, let me look at Goku and Vegeta’s energy beam struggle. I’ll admit, this is actually the hardest to critique out of the showings you’ve given me for this part of your post since the options available are not very extensive to make a thorough counter analysis of this feat. Nonetheless, there is a crucial misunderstanding in taking merely Vegeta’s bragging coupled with the sheer conflict of the beam not causing continental, let alone planetary level destruction. The only impact and collateral damage of the energy attacks occurred in the area the beam struggle took place in. So in short, you do lack proper concrete proof for this attack of Goku’s being a planet busting one. Still, one possible reply (though it's not what you'll say I guess) can be “But none of the beams ever touched the ground so how can you claim that Vegeta’s Galick Gun or Goku’s Kaiokenx4 Kamehameha isn’t planet busting?” And that’s a good point to make.

@pope052 said:

Here's another instance, whilst battling Cell Goku resorted to a Kamehameha, which was stated to blow up the Earth just like he had shown the ability to:

Like you, i'll cut this short as I have a lot more in this aspect that i'd prefer to present later in the debate. But for now, this will do. As they exceed the durability showings that you have presented to me.

Right, now to get onto Goku's Durability:

Fortunately, this is what actually makes your next feat all the easier to tackle. So when Goku fires the Instant Transmission Kamehameha at Cell, all it does is release a massive explosion that destroys the top half of Cell’s body and emits a blinding flash all across the Cell Games Arena. And the most fundamental aspect of all, Goku’s attack comes into direct contact with the ground yet there is never any indication that the attack has any sort of planetary level of destruction. There isn’t a beam of energy zooming off into space like Vegeta’s Final Flash to avoid the planetary destruction and so when this feat is deconstructed, it can be put into its full perspective. Now, the Instant Kamehameha will have practical combat applications in being able to teleport and possibly get a surprise attack on Superman but I stand by my assertion Goku wasn’t able to planet bust as a SSJ at this point in the anime. It’s reasonable to assume later on he can planet bust with his Ki attacks, especially as a SSJ3 but based on this showing, I think otherwise. Nonetheless, even if you reply with an excellent counter proving these criticisms to be wrong or I accept your premise that Goku is a planet buster in energy projection, that doesn’t affect my argument for Superman’s durability in the slightest. Why?

I’ll show you by bringing things up to the planetary level on my side. You’ll obviously have expected me to bring these out so I may as well do it now to counter the planetary level energy projection. In short, Superman has taken two actual planet busting attacks before. Example number one in a preluding issue to Our Worlds at War where Superman tanks an exploding Pluto with only a ringing in his ears

Next, example two, a scan from the conclusion of Death of the New Gods. Here, Superman gets caught in between a planet busting sandwich where New Genesis and Apokolips are the bread that will form into the new Fifth World. Sandwich metaphors aside, Superman tanks this planet busting attack just fine without so much as a scratch, bloody nose or serious wound on him.

This contrasts greatly with Goku’s durability for planet busting attacks. He’s run away from two and has been killed by one. Pretty telling based on on-panel comparison between Superman and Goku’s energy projection durability.

And guess what my friend? These aren’t even Superman’s best durability feats that I’m saving up for! I had planned to set out a 3 stage process of Superman’s responses to Goku’s energy projection but this reply is long enough so I’ll only make part one of my post. One way in which Superman can deal with Goku’s Ki attacks is to meet them with his own main ranged form of attack, his Heat Vision.

To showcase its power, first let me give you a US government classification of it. A government Infra Red Satellite picked up on a heat bloom where Superman burned an S shield into an object as a warning to interested parties for reasons that escape me for now. What’s important is that it is dismissed as a forest fire because “Forest Fires don’t produce nuclear level heat.” Already in my argument, I have given confirmation that Superman can produce nuclear level heat from his eyes.

For my next heat vision feat, here’s Superman burning a massive layer in the ocean after Imperiex drones destroy Atlantis thus succeeding in p***ing Superman. Again, it takes a high level of heat to burn that much water down to such a low level and does showcase how powerful Superman’s heat vision can be even in character.

Thirdly, Superman’s wide ranged heat vision succeeded in totally disintegrating an army of Doomsday clones. Granted it drained his power a bit and the Doomsday clones weren’t a patch on the real thing but to take so many out in such a powerful move is very impressive.

And in this last scan, Superman attacks Despero with his heat vision. Despero is a team busting heavy hitter who’s withstood assaults from the combined power of the Justice League and Justice Society and shrugged off their physical assault. He’s tanked physical and ranged attacks of all varieties yet Superman’s heat vision made him yell out in pain. Another testament to its power.

Granted, I do concede that Goku’s energy projection surpasses Superman’s but my scans show Superman can match Goku’s ranged attacks for a while thus allowing Superman to think of another move or keep the fight going longer to allow Hulk to beat Sentry.

@pope052 said:

This is Goku's massive advantage in this fight. While you did surprise me with Superman's Combat Speed in the scans you presented (kudos), they're still not enough to put him even over Dragon-Ball Goku in Combat Speed:

In the first scan of Supes calculation longitude, latitude, etc, it's impressive but Goku has calmed his soul, emptied it and learned how to move faster than lightning:

That’s cute but Superman can move so fast that he can see lightning in slow motion. Two can play at this game.

@pope052 said:

For the second scan, they were not Hyper-Sonic Booms. I read the scan, he merely stated "i'm setting off sonic-booms" which is only breaking the sound barrier. Goku has moved and fought at speeds that are entirely invisible:

In regards to my second combat speed scan, Superman is clearly setting off multiple sonic booms in that fight as he moves around trading blows with this super powered foe. To me, that’s definite confirmation of his multi hypersonic combat speed at least to set off so many sonic booms in a fight. Oh and as an off hand comment, the exploding baby was in a combat situation since Superman was fighting off other interested parties in the baby seen in scan one as well as prevent an explosion in that scan.

@pope052 said:

As for reaction speed, well Goku has reacted to and dodged light-speed attacks since the young age of twelve:

A Solar-Flare is light, and therefore moves at light-speed (obviously). In order not to overpower Goku, I won't say he is light speed. However, I will say that he is definitely fast enough to react to light-speed attacks, which he is. Reaction Speed is a crucial aspect of Combat Speed and arguably the most important.

Now i've seen many attempts to degrade this feat, read if you wish:

  • Goku could have easily took off before Tien finished performing the Solar-Flare.

Not at all, if you look closely Tien's eyes were fixed on Goku's position whilst performing the Sun-Flare. Had Goku moved before the attack reached it's climax, Tien would have followed Goku's movements and abandon the attack:

See? Goku was standing still and Tien had his sights focused on Goku, and Goku still avoided the attack. Besides, it's not even in character for Goku to run off before an opponent finished their attack.

Not to mention, there's not a scrap of evidence to back up the claim that Goku took off before the Solar-Flare commenced.

So this argument is the weakest attempt to degrade the feat that i've seen, now onto the next one:

  • Goku merely avoided Tien's perception, and not the attack itself.

Ah, this fits in nicely with my post above. Tien clearly had his eyes fixed on Goku, had Goku moved Tien would have abandoned the attack to go after him. Tien had already proven that Goku could not evade his perception, his eyes were fast enough to follow Goku at all times during their battle:

Then again, no evidence for this claim either. And finally, the last argument:

  • The Solar Flare could possibly have not reached the full effect, and therefore Goku ran away and got Roshi's glasses before the blinding affected him.

This argument is arguably worse than the first one. It is a speculative view of the way the Solar Flare works, nothing more. Speculative attempts to debunk a feat aren't worth considering at all.

And.. again. No evidence, whatsoever.

While these arguments are nice tries, that's all they are, tries. In order to properly debunk a feat, you need evidence to back up your claims. But by all means, go ahead and try to debunk it. Until anyone can, you have to take the feat as it is, which is Goku avoiding a light-speed attack.

That's it for Combat Speed, for now.

Again, very impressive speed feats for Goku, there isn’t much wrong with them like I could point out with Goku’s striking and Ki attack feats. I’m particularly impressed with the lengths you’ve gone into dealing with Tien’s Solar Flare attack though I thought for a moment that you were planning to use that as a tactic against Superman which wouldn’t work, trust me on that. But your replies to the criticisms of that feat are most through indeed, meaning there’s not an avenue I can critique it on. However, I have to utterly reject the conclusion that Superman’s speed doesn’t go past Dragon Ball Goku’s. Trust me when I say that Superman is definitely beyond Dragon Ball Goku’s speed and these next feats shall demonstrate it.

Case number one: Even after being weakened by Gog’s synethetic yellow kryptonite that had weakened Superman in a previous story (check the context or ask me if you don't believe me), Superman is still an effortless bullet timer able to snatch the soldier’s bullets out of the air. How many Dragon Ball speed feats have the characters do that at full power?

Feat number 2: Superman is able to disarm Arion of all his enchantments and rings whilst he’s transforming from a giant monster that was going toe to toe with Superman. This feat’s strength lies in Arion’s unawareness that Superman had stripped of his artefacts, the fact Arion thought he still had his charms and rings on him shown when he threatens to cast more spells on Superman and the conclusion drawn from this feat that Superman must have moved his entire body, limbs and all, to disarm Arion of all his rings just as he was reverting back into human form in the time span before Clark started his sentence "I'm tougher than you know. This highlights how Superman was moving at invisible, faster than the eye can follow speeds just like Goku was.

And third of all, possibly my best combat speed feat for Superman. Here Superman is fighting a temporally powered opponent who uses a temporal modulation field that makes it seem to his opponent as if time has stopped as Superman first remarks. But Superman is able to speed himself back up to normal level of speed and temporal perception and snatches the weapon away thus rendering it inert. This feat is a brilliant combat speed showing for 3 reasons. One, it demonstrates how Superman was capable of moving his entire body to compensate for the slowed rate of motion the ray put him under. Two, he was constantly trying to tag this foe showing how fast he can move his limbs in a combat scenario even when slowed down and finally, the blatantly obvious fact that this is a combat scenario meaning this feat is legitimate proof for Superman's not so shabby compared to Goku's combat and reaction speed.

When taken into consideration with my first speed scan of how Superman controls his speed, I can safely say that Superman will be able to speed up to adjust for Goku’s surprising speed. And this is without my trump card for the speed department I’ll play later on.

Well, I've done as much as I can in as much depth both in analysis and in feats as I could muster in addressing your first and most impressive counter post. Thus, allow me to draw my own secondary conclusions in this part of the debate:

  • Superman’s raw physical strength vastly outweighs Goku’s even at SSJ3 and could enable him to overpower Goku at key points in the fight.
  • Despite the legitimate SSJ3 Battle of Gods striking feat, the consistency and ease of which Superman’s striking power has been displayed on the moon busting level puts him above Goku’s own striking level which is based on a misunderstanding of Frieza’s planet busting durability. Goku will most definitely feel Superman’s physical strikes and be overpowered by them eventually.
  • Superman’s durability can now clearly be shown as being able to tank Goku’s Ki Energy projection even without showing Superman’s two best durability feats. Superman’s combat speed and reactions allow him to keep up with Goku in the fight.
  • Taken into consideration with Superman’s superior versatility and strategic thinking, which I shall outline later, this makes Superman too much of a versatile and powerful opponent for Goku to overcome. At best, Goku can keep Superman at bay with his skill, speed and ranged edge but all this does is give my partner, the Hulk, more time to beat Sentry and come over to help Superman finish off Goku who won’t be able to deal with two physically superior foes.

Whew, you’ve no idea how many pages on Word even without scans this reply took up. 6, at my current count. Nonetheless, this was a real treat to dive into and fully flesh out in relation to your own arguments. All righty, it’s your turn @pope052.

#46 Posted by Wolverine08 (39035 posts) - - Show Bio

Awwwwwww man! @lvenger is breaking things down!

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#48 Posted by Lvenger (18521 posts) - - Show Bio

@vegetto1990: The OP EXPLICITLY mentions that posters should NOT interfere in the debate. That was one of the defining rules of this CAV and I don't appreciate you butting in to make this comment. And neither do my fellow participants I'm sure. None of us want this turning into a DBZ vs comics flame war so if you could respect the rules of the debate in the future and delete your comment, that would be appreciated greatly. I don't want unnecessary content crowding up this CAV nor do I want to start another tertiary discussion of Goku's striking power, a premise I do not agree with and intend to prove in this CAV. Please remember this for next time you interfere with a CAV debate.

#49 Posted by dondave (34756 posts) - - Show Bio
#50 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@vegetto1990:

Dude, stay out of this no one needs nor wants to hear from you and i'm perfectly capable of debating for Goku myself thanks very much. Like @lvenger said, if you delete your comment then we'd all appreciate it.