Why The Dark Knight was much better than TDKR (a bit late)

Well, i watched the entire trilogy again this week , just to get a closer look at the films and i must say you ALL should rewatch batman begins,

its such a good film and nothing like what i remembered, i used to say it's the outcast of the trilogy but after watching it again it was truly amazing,

well as for The Dark Knight Rises, in my opinion it didn't deliver the same amount of satisfaction as the AMAZING LEGENDARY The Dark Knight did.

Here is why,

1. The Plot wasn't as solid and as intriguing as TDK was: there were some ridiculous moments in TDKR like bane suddenly knowing where R&D is , and the whole atomic bomb business, it didn't deliver, it was kinda cliche all the way through, and it wasn't as solid and tensing as the plot in TDK.
2. NOT ENOUGH BATMAN! GOD DANIGT: seriously! we saw such little batman for a movie that is 3 hours long and is supposed to close the saga, that made it a bit disappointing, WE! , needed to see batman! , I ! , need to see batman! - Gordon yelling the nolan for not showing enough bats
3. There were no surprises: in TDK the very first scene was a scene that put smiles on peoples faces making them say "i didnt expected that haha" TDKR though was very predictable, in every point of it we all knew what was going to happen, which made the movie a sit-through.
4. The movie became a train-wreck as it went on: it just kept piling up more and more events that some were pointless, some were stupid , and there was no way to wrap it all up, so they made a batman saves the day taking to bomb to the sea scene, meh..
5. TDK Made batman such a badass, which made us relay on him instead of thinking well, when will he be beaten next? : in TDK batman did some amazing things like the pruitt building and the parking lot scene but in TDKR he was like that old man who we know that once hell get in trouble he'll get his ass kicked, which contradicts what batman is all about; ENDURING!
6. TDKR was too emotional; BATMAN is about dark toning of things, i remember TDK as going from good to depressing and chaotic, TDKR was just too much Crying out loud and being sad about stuff which really doesnt suit batman.
7. and finally: did batman forgot how to batman? i don't think a 7 years of training would go away that quickly, batman all the way acted like a dumb angry football player instead of THE BATMAN , he wasnt scary, he wasnt intimidating, he was just "lets ride this bike and catch the wrong guy to be a badass in the news!" which i really hated

The Dark Knight Rises kind of undid everything about Wayne in the first two movies. He becomes Batman to prevent anyone from suffering tragedies like he did and fight evil.

Then the girl he loves his killed by one of those evil people and that's all she wrote. He quits. Nothing left to do there.

Comic Batman would have bitched slapped him silly. That's just one of the things wrong with Rises.

@pokeysteve: I don't think he quit because Rachel died. Here's what I heard...

Bruce became Batman to stop organized crime. He stopped that in TDK. So he quit because he did his job. He didn't go out as Bruce Wayne because Rachel died though.

It had Bane and Thalia.

Let face it, how those 2 are evn going to try to be at least in the same level that the Joker?

@pokeysteve: Earth 2 Golden Age Batman quit after Catwoman got killed by him being Batman, he accidentally caue her death, he even destroy the costume, he decide to be back one last time but because everybody was going to die.

Also Batman is a very emotional person.

@deathpoolthet1000 said:

It had Bane and Thalia.

Let face it, how those 2 are evn going to try to be at least in the same level that the Joker?

@pokeysteve: Earth 2 Golden Age Batman quit after Catwoman got killed by him being Batman, he accidentally caue her death, he even destroy the costume, he decide to be back one last time but because everybody was going to die.

Also Batman is a very emotional person.

yeah, he also sang a frank sinatra song in a gentlemens club.. it doesn't mean it suits him... the tone of the trilogy was that batman is tough and brooding and pissed off as well.. seeing him all of a sudden like a bitch really broke the atmosphere for me

It was never Nolan's plan to make the third film, better then the Dark Knight but it was his plan to make the second film out due the first as a much superior film, as a sequel is expected to do. He actually thought about ending the series with the Dark knight, figuring he could never top the successes of the second film. But after much care full planing he decided to conclude the series with the Dark Knight Rises, feeling it was the ending his Batman saga deserved. It ended being more financially successful then the first one. And very highly received by fans,audiences and critics, though as one would expect to as well received as The Dark Knight, but when is that ever or usually the case for third films. Star Wars:Return of the Jedi, Spider-man 3, X-men 3,Lord Of the Rings:The Return of the King. While not as good as the Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises was still a pretty enjoyable film.

I think Begins had some problems, but none of them so big that we couldn't over look them.

TDKR is almost a perfect movie, and despite the different take on beloved characters was widely accepted by bat-fans.

Rises had way too many problems to over look, and it's interpretation of beloved characters was a let down.

I am the only one here that blame the villains?

I'm not buying he stopped all organized crime in Gotham in under 2 years.

Lol exactly!

The Dark Knight was much better Rises was poopoo.

I like TDKR but it had too many plot holes, too much going on, and not enough Batman. Talia was very poorly executed. And I would have to disagree on one point. TDKR didn't have any emotional scenes, except for Alfred at Bruce's grave. Batman Begins and TDK had very emotional scenes, which is another why they're so great. TDK and BB were better than TDKR.

And for the record, Bruce is very emotional

lol he cried two tears for Damian lol. ( Can't remember if he cried in Batman and Rob 18 when he hugged Damian's clothes)

@pokeysteve: He didnt, he help the police and goverment to act against them, also the goverment let a worst type of crime to take control corporative crimes and the people who help them, people like Bane who uses corporations to run terrorist groups and corporation that use terrorist to make money.

Saddly this is not more explored in Rises, that would had being a better storyline of Batman vs The Corporative Terrorism.

Saddly most of people dont read the prequel comic that build Bane as a better villain, it explain how Bane won that much power, he was a hired terrorist for corporations.

Seriously, the prequel comic shows a better Bane that the movie.

@pokeysteve: Why not? He is the Batman.

@deathpoolthet1000:

Bane was just one of Talia's bitches. A formidable bitch this time at least haha we're moving in the right direction

Because this Batman was a moron and the super intelligent comic Batman couldn't do it. There will always be crime. Always. If someone is going to make an impact on it, it won't be Batman.

@pokeysteve: Yeah but mobs that have control of the city? There won't always be that. He didn't stop all crime just mobs and gangs.

@pokeysteve: So that means he is not super intelligent and you overrated his intelligence.

For what i have read all this time it looks people have never read Batman Comics and Superman Comics, or only read the last 5 years and wikis that forget about data, that shows this whole BatGod and SuperGod crap is crap.

Thats why people Hate Batman and Superman, their damn fanbases.

BatGod and SuperGod are TERRIBLY BAD POOR WRITTING!!

@deathpoolthet1000: Lol those all look pre crisis. They upped his smarts after COIE. I think you loved Nolan's movies and will do anything to defend them. And I don't understand how him getting hit shows any lack of intelligence at all. He isn't invincible.

And there was no organized crime for 8+ years.......come on buddy.

He did, dude. The Dent Act ended all organized crime in Gotham. Did you not watch the movie? "When you cleaned the streets you cleaned them good, pretty soon we'll just be chasing down overdue library books." That's the whole reason he had to take the fall for Harvey Dent in the first place, so all of that could happen and everyone can get locked up. And yes that whole idea is unrealistic I get that that is where you're coming from but that's how they explain it in the movie dude I'm being objective giving you specific facts from the movie that is all.

You'd expect that after a year and re watching the trilogy one would be able to come up with better arguments. I can summarize your entire post with "I dont like The Dark Knight Rises".

@chrisj_1: Basically what this guy said.

@pokeysteve: No he is a normal human being and super intelligence is a super power, what means you in some way belive he is not a normal human.

All your complaints about Nolan is because he made him a human, that is the main idea about Batman, him being a normal human, that why he got so popular, he is a normal human that fights evil.

I just simply belive people often forgets the point of who Batmans is.

Inhumanly smart Batman is inhuman, so its a pointless Batman, because goes against everything Batman stands for.

He is the example that any person can be a hero and dont need powers to do that, just need to push himself to his limits.

Inhumanly smart, strong, fast or anything, it means he never has to push himself to his limits because he has no limits, so its not Batman.

The Dark Knight Returns

Knightfall

TAS

Beyond

Are great examples of this, he push himself to his limits, making hims a more interesting character and showing you, that many times you have to give everything you have.

Limitless Batmans is not Batman.

Basically your whole argument was that you just didn't like The Dark Knight Rises.

You also forgot to mention that dumbass part where the imaginary Ra's Al Ghul gives him crucial info., how he returned to Gotham with no money - which by the way was also very stupid. As if Bruce wouldn't be able to explain that his money was stolen from him.

Also the ENTIRE GCPD went after Bane? SO STOOOOOOPID! Joseph Gordon Levitt was also awful. Magical knee brace, and Anne Hathaway were also bad choices by Nolan.

@sinestro_gl: Holy none sense Batman!!!!!

Liam Neeson was alive, he cant die, you didnt saw Star Wars and Taken he killed death and later he killed Chuck Norris for the fact he need to learn by the numbers.

Also Begins show he can go around the world without money.

Batman failed to notice Stephanie was alive, failed to see Jason Todd was alive and he has failed to notice many things in the past.

This movie was the worst of them, but there was a reason.

BANE IS A CHEAP ASS LAME ASS BAD GUY!!!

AND THE ONLY AL GHUL THAT MATTERS IS RAS, NOT HER DAMAGE ASS DAUGTHER!!!

@deathpoolthet1000:

I didn't expect him to be creating advanced science fiction like machinery. Keaton's Batman cracks Joker poison code. BTAS Batman did more detective work than he did fighting. Bale's was not the worlds greatest detective. Why is it so hard for you to believe that some one can be that smart? They messed up his origin having him train with the LoS for 7+ years and completely left out the detective aspect of it.

@pokeysteve:Batman Intelligence

Criminology

Mathematics

History

Mythology

Chemistry

Biology

Foreign Languages

Forensic Studies

Computer Hacking

Medical Training, Medicine and Surgery

Robotics

Negotiation Skills

Again, its never shown he did that with the Joker poison, its implied he did it, like its implied he did detective job during all the Nolan movies.

Like is implied Schumacher and Burton Batman is the same Batman, like is implied Bruce understands Lucius Fox he is just playing stupid and fooling around.

Like is implied he used 2 Bats at the end of Rises, the one at the start of the movie is actually blue.

Like is implied the mobsters were the medium The Joker and Ras used against Gotham.

Likes is implied that there is no mobster because The Joker burn their money, without money they lost their power and the police could take them down.

Lol he showed no advanced knowledge of any of these that I remember. Operative word here is "advanced".

It's implied he does the Joker's poison sure. He's says to Alfred "Let's go shopping" meaning he wants to experiment with different products and deduce what products have what chemicals in them.

Nolan's Batman we see him analyzing bullets and doing a bit of snooping and that's it. It's nothing your average human couldn't do with the right machinery. Bruce Wayne isn't your average human. He notices things. He's a master tactician. He's has excellent deductive reasoning skills. I'm ok with movie Batman not being able to whip some ridiculous weapon but if they're putting a Justice League together they better amp him up and quick. Other than funding, Nolan's Batman would be useless on that team. There'd be no purpose for him.

Brainiac, The Leader, and Thanos have Super Intelligence.

Batman, Sherlock Holmes, and Black Panther are intelligent.

I think it's pretty much universally accepted that TDK>>TDKR

@pokeysteve: Nolan Batman was above an average human, not every single human being on earth would had hacked the Bat, hacked all the Gotham cell phones, take Bane down, take Ras down, fly a bomb outside of the city, drive a car over the buildings and take down a Swat team without causing them any damage.

Also, this whole detective job thing, has being said several times, Batman does detective job, the thing is that people expect him to act like Sherlok Holmes, even when the thing that guys does is not detective job is just Deus Ex Machina.

I never said i want hin in JL movie, i just simply belive people often ignores all Batman legacy and history, to point it start at some random point of the 80s.

I like Dark Knight Rises BETTER! SO THERE!

what they should've done was add every bat villain possible have bats take them all down get bucky his sidekick and bring the joker back and use death stroke kill alfred and make batman know that money equals power and with that comes great responsibility i cant believe batman quit for seven years and besides that gotham hasnt fallen

He upgraded the phones. That was Lucius' design. Bane beat the $h!t out of him and then I think it was Selina that killed him. He didn't beat Ras but rather just had an escape from the train. Anyone could fly a bomb out of a city. Anyone could drive THAT car over buildings. The SWAT team was his most impressive act in all three movies. It showed great tactile knowledge. Other than that......nothing.

He IS like Sherlock Holmes. Sherlock isn't a Deus Ex Machina. He is just extremely perceptive and has honed his deductive skills. Haven't you seen the movies or the new show? That's a trait Batman should have. Noticing things others wouldn't notice and reasoning conclusions based on those observations.

@deathpoolthet1000: Yeah they should've given us the same movie with Deathstroke and Black Mask obviously it would've been better... I dont see how a character could be blamed on concept alone for the quality of a movie. Mind you Talia has mattered a lot more than Ra's and I'm not just talking Morrisons Batman. Without Talia Ra's would've been another one of those countless forgotten Silver Age characters. Bane is the anti-Batman deal with it,I know you want Deathstroke to be a Batman villain but that's not gonna happen.DC is not stupid enough to sacrifice 2 good villains in the favor of one,Deathstroke was never a Batman villain,he had more than a decade long head start on Bane,so please stop with this misplaced aggression against Bane,he never stole Deathstroke's spot.

@pokeysteve: Cracking the Joker's code was the only feat of detective work from Keaton's Batman in those 2 movies,Bale also did tec work at the start of TDKR when he figured out Selina's identity,whereabouts,and motives.

You hated the entire trilogy,why pretend as if you liked TDK? to give your opinion greater legitimacy?

Eh? You got "I hate the entire trilogy" from my five lines of ranting about TDKR?

Well, obviously you'd be wrong. 100% wrong. Now, I don't want to get into another argument with you, because I'm sick of all your Nolanite comments every time we cross paths. The trilogy was good, but I don't worship them.

No, I didn't like TDKR. Yes, I liked BB and TDK. No, I didn't like Bale as Batman. AND no, the Nolan films aren't my favourite version of Batman. And surprise surprise, I've seen better films in my life.

So deal with it. I have an opinion.

If you didn't like Bale as Batman then obviously it's clear that you only liked TDK because of the Joker/Ledger and if it weren't for him you would've disliked TDK as well.

AND THIS is why TDKR gets flak,it doesn't have Joker,all that talk about plot holes and less Batman is just horse crap.

Do you even read what I say every time we have this damn argument?

Bale was not a good Batman in my opinion. Obviously, there's that thing with his voice, but also the fact that he wasn't written like the Batman I like. I don't really have major problems with his character in BB. With TDK, I didn't like how limited his detective feats were or his overly-aggressive demeanor. He was portrayed more as a policeman than a detective - there's obviously a difference. The detective issue is brought up again in TDKR.

Notice I said detective feats - him doing detective work that probably any competent detective in the GCPD could do is not impressive. His fighting skills in the latter two movies were also less than what is expected of Batman, using almost 0 (not 100% sure) martial arts. The first fight with Bane was just painful to watch because he had his ass being served to him - which shouldn't happen to Batman (read Knightfall - a Batman exhausted from previous events still put up a better fight than Bale did).

If you still insist that he was a good detective in TDKR, where was his background check on Selina before he hired her? Or the background check on Talia? Some detective.

As for the acting, I was actually a bigger fan of Gary Oldman than Heath Ledger in TDK. In fact, I feel that in all 3 films, Oldman acted the best...but that's mostly due to the incompetent and fat Commissioner Gordons we've had in the other films. Yes, Ledger's performance was one of the best things about TDK, but even if his performance wasn't as good, the story of TDK was still good. But I've seen better films and don't feel the need to worship it like you do, or the need to defend it from harmless criticisms like you do.

TDKR gets "flak" because it wasn't a very good movie, not because Ledger, rest his soul, was not in it. Too many plot holes and badly written characters.

/end rant

I didn't like either movies

I haven't seen them in a while so I don't remember. Val's Batman knew all the riddles with barely any thought and deduced Nigma's identity. Even frickin Clooney tracked down Freeze's wife and had the forethought to bring heaters. They showed above average intelligence where as window licker Bale seemed like he needed help tying his shoes in comparison.

I've been saying this since Begins, They are good movies, just not good Batman movies. Except for Rises. Rises was just crap. DK was also my favorite and it's not because of Ledger directly It's one of the most suspenseful movies I've ever seen. I didn't even particularly like his take on Joker.

Sinestro_gl pretty much said a lot of what I wanted to say.

It gets flak from foolish comicbook retards complaining about useless things the same ones who love the crap produced by Geoff Johns and Bendis. It's only a step below TDK at most review sites,you talk about all those plot holes in TDKR go ahead and list them,I'll find just as many in TDK. Why criticize one for something and let the other go free? THAT'S where Ledger comes in. You're afraid of criticizing him and the movie out of fear of sounding insensitive.

Go watch the movie again he DID do a background check on Selina and had absolutely no reason to do the same for Talia. She was a member of his companies board of directors. Since you insist on bringing Knightfall arc I guess you'd also know that it was JPV who defeated Bane not Bruce,Bruce has yet to beat Bane in the comics.

@entropy_aegis: actually, this was a point i stated that the plot in TDK was solid, in TDKR they "Suddenly" found stuff, batman's R&D, batman's identity, in TDK everything is explained either later in the movie or in other movies. and my anger about TDKR is that batman became stupid all of a sudden. remember in TDK? when Lau came to Wayne Ent. and bruce already knew he was a crook? , he had no reason to background Lau as well, but he did, because he's smart, or at least was.. , i don't know what happened to him, he wasn't the definition of batman in any of the movies , but in TDK he was the closest, in TDKR he became a show off and a stupid man who walks into traps like a rat... that's what made me angry in the first place

in addition: he never beated bane YET, but he never walked into traps that he couldn't handle, batman is like a hudini, that's what defines him , even if he walks into traps its only traps he know he can handle.. , Batman in TDKR was just "OH HE's jusT a merCENERY i can BEAT him letS JUSt GO tO BANE OH SHIT ITS A TRAP YOU WILL PAY SELINA *BANG BATMAN's MASK IS SHATTered*

Except Lau aint Talia there's a big difference,you cant compare the League of Shadows with some crook like Lau. Theatricality and deception remember that's what Bane and Talia were,the movie made that clear.

Remember when TDK Batman was lying on the road completely out cold with the Joker on top of him? if not for Gordon God knows what would have happened.

Remember Coleman Reese? and how he almost blew his identity?

@entropy_aegis: Lau and talia were both foreign companies working with Wayne ent. LOS or not bruce didn't trust no one in TDK, he was allways 3 steps ahead, The joker part that was the plan all along, batman might no have needed to crash himself but gordon was waiting all along for the joker to stop , so either way he would have appeared, in TDKR he just WENT INTO THE PIT without no plan and as for Coleman... remember what bruce did? he saved his life, that made coleman disappear.. bruce wasn't dumb in TDK notice he allways had everything planned, even the sonar thing in the end, in TDKR he was lost.. stupid... had no plan he just wanted to stop bane and beat up people..

@30krobert: Nolan's Batman aint Houdini and he had beaten Ra's al Ghul(Bane's teacher) previously,plus he had never heard of Bane during his time with the League,I cant fault him for thinking Bane was gonna be a walk in the park.

Oh yeah? think again Gordon was presumed dead there was no back up plan there he was screwed and saved only by dumb luck.3 steps ahead? he spent the entire movie getting played by the Joker.

As for doing back ground checks shame he didn't do them on Wuertz and Ramirez,could've avoided Rachel's death and Harvey's turn to villainy. See I can nitpik too and prove that Talia was officialy "foreign".

Comparing Talia with Lau is like comparing Joker with Gambol. It's an irrelevant analogy,Lau was known to have a dubious background,Talia had no track record.

@entropy_aegis: Bane has never worked outside of the comics, look at the animated universes and live action movies, his concept as a character saddly only works in comics, we had many teams trying to do the best they can with him adn all of them had failed.

I mean looks at this Bane, you will notice it looks like Hush in some way, Deadshot born as this concept of character but the fact they decide to take him out of the Batvillains he evolved, Bane has always being and Anti Batman and as long DC decide to keep him like that he is never going to live to his full potential.

Deathstroke has worked against the other DC characters, i said he should be in the JL movies or even get his own movie, never as a Batman villain, he evolved beyond any type of anti Batman gimmick, because he is not an anti Batman.

I just want Deathstroke stop being a Green Arrow villain and Teen Titans villain, he is a mercenary, he should be no one villain.

Nolan taked Ras and give him a past with Bruce Wayne, he is a mentor and teacher, a father figure when he decide to attack Bruce Wayne it becames a father vs son duel, with Talia we had no reason to care, i mean in the comics we did, but here we dont have any reason.

Her reason was my dad wanted to destroy Gotham adn Bane was i want to do anything she wants, i have a nother reason to want you dead, but is not even clear why.

So it would had being better to have Black Mask and Deathstroke, at least you have 2 villains withclear reasons to take a war against Batman, a mercenary and a mobster, Deathstroke would had being because of the money and bizarre code of honor and Black Mask because, well he is a mobster does he needs more reasons?

@pokeysteve: This is how Sherlock Holmes always looks outside of his own type of fiction.

Inspector Clouseau = Sherlock Holmes and all his none sense, not James Bond like some people actually belive.

Psych is a better example of the thing you said, it just more logic and less jumping in senseless and pointless arguments.

Also your concept of intelligence is that there is just one, not various, that some one looks smart dont mean he is smart and that some one decide to play stupid usually is a sign of intelligence.

@deathpoolthet1000: Um he worked perfectly fine in Rises and no he didn't look like Hush at all. The only similarity they had was they they both wore coats and vastly different coats they were. Even Hush's look is a derivative of The Dark Knight Returns Harvey Dent.

The only team that tried it's best was Nolan and the guys behind TAS, yes you're right Bane will never receive the same depth as he has in the comics but as an antagonist he's perfectly workable,I mean how much depth did the Marvel villains have?

Deathstroke has no reason to be in a Batman movie other than money period even he wouldn't be anything more than a glorified thug. He has and will always be a Teen Titans villain and taking him away from that franchise will be a HUGE disservice to both. Black Mask needs to find a place in the comics first before they think of bringing on the screen. He's one of the most shallowest characters in Gotham.

I fully agree with what you say about Talia and indirectly ofcourse with Bane but that honestly had more to do with the time constraint,if one movie could have benefited from the 2 flick approach it was Rises.

@deathpoolthet1000:

You just compared Sherlock Holmes to Inspector Clouseau. Your stubbornness is really showing here. And James Bond?! He's not even a detective in the sense we're talking about so you may be having a different conversation altogether. There are many different kinds of intelligence. Deduction, in my opinion, is somewhere near the top. You need observation skills as well as a great deal of general knowledge.

This is what Sherlock is like and how I expect my Batman to be.......less quirky though.