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#51 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

@durakken said:

@rdclip said:

@durakken said:

Though it should be pointed out that in terms of sprint speed Tim probably beats Dick in DCnU because Gymnastics have more running than Acrobatics.

I don't know about new52, but in pre-Flashpoint it was mentioned (in Teen Titans or Nightwing) that Dick is superior to Tim physically while Tim's forte was in intellectual matters.

Yes, that's why I said in DCnU, because Tim was given a background in gymnastics stupidly which alters his capabilities... just like the fact that Dick was like 17 when he started training under Batman alters his fighting abilities, lowering them significantly, especially when you also reduce Bruce's solo time, the time they trained together, and all of their ages.

I think it was nice addition.

It isn't because it screws up the character along with the not being able to figure out Bruce's identity and getting his parents in such danger. Part of the point of Tim's character is that he wasn't very athletic at all which forced him to rely heavily on his brain and tactics. Be adding that he was an Olympian Gymnast completely tosses that out the window.

#52 Posted by RustyRoy (12718 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@rustyroy said:

@durakken said:

@rdclip said:

@durakken said:

Though it should be pointed out that in terms of sprint speed Tim probably beats Dick in DCnU because Gymnastics have more running than Acrobatics.

I don't know about new52, but in pre-Flashpoint it was mentioned (in Teen Titans or Nightwing) that Dick is superior to Tim physically while Tim's forte was in intellectual matters.

Yes, that's why I said in DCnU, because Tim was given a background in gymnastics stupidly which alters his capabilities... just like the fact that Dick was like 17 when he started training under Batman alters his fighting abilities, lowering them significantly, especially when you also reduce Bruce's solo time, the time they trained together, and all of their ages.

I think it was nice addition.

It isn't because it screws up the character along with the not being able to figure out Bruce's identity and getting his parents in such danger. Part of the point of Tim's character is that he wasn't very athletic at all which forced him to rely heavily on his brain and tactics. Be adding that he was an Olympian Gymnast completely tosses that out the window.

I didn't like that part also, and yeah I liked that Tim wasn't very athletic but being an Gymnastic is a good reason how he became a good fighter.

#53 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

@durakken said:

It isn't because it screws up the character along with the not being able to figure out Bruce's identity and getting his parents in such danger. Part of the point of Tim's character is that he wasn't very athletic at all which forced him to rely heavily on his brain and tactics. Be adding that he was an Olympian Gymnast completely tosses that out the window.

I didn't like that part also, and yeah I liked that Tim wasn't very athletic but being an Gymnastic is a good reason how he became a good fighter.

He becomes an awesome fighter because he's trained by Batman and Shiva and Dick and... and... and... He's not a "good" martial artist. Fighting and Martial Arts is not the same thing. That's why Batman isn't one of the top 10 Martial artists in the DCU. It's his mental prowess that allows him to be that great fighter. It has nothing to do with Martial Arts itself. Also another part of the explanation for why he's at least a little athletic was that he did take a little bit of martials arts before.

The Gymnastics thing is bad, but it's not too bad, but then they make him an Olympian level gymnast which ridiculously dumb and in contradiction with his character.

#54 Posted by RustyRoy (12718 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@rustyroy said:

@durakken said:

It isn't because it screws up the character along with the not being able to figure out Bruce's identity and getting his parents in such danger. Part of the point of Tim's character is that he wasn't very athletic at all which forced him to rely heavily on his brain and tactics. Be adding that he was an Olympian Gymnast completely tosses that out the window.

I didn't like that part also, and yeah I liked that Tim wasn't very athletic but being an Gymnastic is a good reason how he became a good fighter.

He becomes an awesome fighter because he's trained by Batman and Shiva and Dick and... and... and... He's not a "good" martial artist. Fighting and Martial Arts is not the same thing. That's why Batman isn't one of the top 10 Martial artists in the DCU. It's his mental prowess that allows him to be that great fighter. It has nothing to do with Martial Arts itself. Also another part of the explanation for why he's at least a little athletic was that he did take a little bit of martials arts before.

The Gymnastics thing is bad, but it's not too bad, but then they make him an Olympian level gymnast which ridiculously dumb and in contradiction with his character.

I should've added in a short amount of time. I've never said anything about Martial arts and yeah him being an Olympian Level gymnast is pretty dumb.

#55 Posted by TheBournePoster (961 posts) - - Show Bio

Are people forgetting that they have "fought" before? Bruce didn't want to fight, Dick did. And despite Nightwing's supposedly superior acrobatics, Batman made him look like a punk, dodging all hits but one (which he allowed) He was able to maneuver Nightwing around the battlefield at will.

#56 Edited by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy: I understand where you're coming from, that giving Tim gymnastics skills makes him more substantial (theoretically) in terms of his skills...but it also makes him and the other Robins less unique. It's the whole idea that adding more abilities to a character makes them more interesting rather than just developing the character. Tim is a guy who was already fully formed and didn't really need this tacked on.

#57 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10827 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick train since he was a children, he train with his parents.

He was in a circus, Batman had train for longer time, but that because he is older.

@durakken said:

@joshmightbe said:

@jayc1324: Well Dick has been training since he learned to walk in areas that Bruce didn't spend much time on relatively speaking. I know Dick wasn't doing martial arts training but he was under going probably pretty intensive athletic training long before he met Bruce, which was in fact the reason he was an optimal choice for Batman's side kick since he was pretty much halfway there when they met.

Bruce is well out of his peak or close to it while Dick is probably in the middle of his or the butt-end of his depending on Post Crisis canon or Post-Flashpoint.

You don't continue to get better physically the more you train. You hit a peak and then you maintain and/or slowly fall off. This means Bruce is slower than his peak no matter how you look at it, whether it is far below or slightly he is beneath his prime. Dick on the other hand is at his prime or slightly under his prime.

Let's assume that they were both at their prime though. Dick's musculature lends itself almost completely to speed, both in general movement and in sprinting. His leaner and more flexible. Bruce's musculature lends itself a lot to speed, but still has a built of power musculature, and generally isn't as flexible.

The fact is if you say they have 100pts devoted to speed then it's clearly Dick who is fastest, but that is off because Dick started earlier in his musculature training which means he would have more like 120-150 points to Bruce's 100 points. Then you consider the age difference and we then have to point out that Bruce doesn't have 100 pts, but 80-90pts... at least in physical ability. So if we say Bruce is 70/30 speed/power split... well Bruce would have 60 speed pts maximally and Dick would have like 100-150.

Though it should be pointed out that in terms of sprint speed Tim probably beats Dick in DCnU because Gymnastics have more running than Acrobatics.

And this is why i had alway attack to Batman getting too muscular.

Online
#58 Edited by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

Are people forgetting that they have "fought" before? Bruce didn't want to fight, Dick did. And despite Nightwing's supposedly superior acrobatics, Batman made him look like a punk, dodging all hits but one (which he allowed) He was able to maneuver Nightwing around the battlefield at will.

not talking about fighting itself...

#59 Posted by Vitality (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

I find it so crazy that some people find it so hard to believe that someone taught by Bruce Wayne...from such a young age...would grow to be better than him in some aspect.

You realize that in your neverending love for Bruce being the best at everything...you're making it sound like he is not so great after all.

#60 Posted by Jayc1324 (12227 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick in my opinion is only superior in acrobatics, agility, and some aspects of speed.

#61 Posted by TheBournePoster (961 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@thebourneposter said:

Are people forgetting that they have "fought" before? Bruce didn't want to fight, Dick did. And despite Nightwing's supposedly superior acrobatics, Batman made him look like a punk, dodging all hits but one (which he allowed) He was able to maneuver Nightwing around the battlefield at will.

not talking about fighting itself...

Yes, I know, but in the fight Batman demonstrated far superior speed, reflexes, acrobatics, ect. As I said, he made Dick look like a punk by easily outmaneuvering him.

#62 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

Are we talking about who would win in a fight, who could get from one point to another the quickest with gadgets, or who would win in a footrace?

1. Batman

2. Tie, they have the same gadgets

3. Nightwing

#63 Posted by lilben42 (2545 posts) - - Show Bio

Haha I read this thread title completely wrong.

#64 Posted by The Stegman (24386 posts) - - Show Bio

He's younger, a better acrobat, leaner and has less bulky gear.

#65 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_stegman: Don't bother. A half dozen people have said that already and there's still a crowd that believes none of that matters.

#66 Edited by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

Are people forgetting that they have "fought" before? Bruce didn't want to fight, Dick did. And despite Nightwing's supposedly superior acrobatics, Batman made him look like a punk, dodging all hits but one (which he allowed) He was able to maneuver Nightwing around the battlefield at will.

Bruce was dodging Dick's hits because he could anticipate them, not because he was faster. Bruce knew what Dick would do because he taught him everything he knows about fighting.

#67 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: Good point. Just like how Deathstroke was able to stab the Flash in Identity Crisis. It wasn't because he was faster, it was because he knew where he was going to be.

#68 Posted by Jayc1324 (12227 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually now I'm thinking that Bruce is only faster in combat. And maybe rooftops traveling.

#69 Posted by Jayc1324 (12227 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: do you know which comic they fight in? I've been looking for it online and can find it. Thanks

#70 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: Not sure of the exact issue but I think they've actually fought on more than one occasion tho its not something that happened often. Just so you know most people who claim Dick is faster aren't saying that makes him better its pretty much just a logical conclusion, and as was pointed out with the comment about Deathstroke tagging the Flash speed isn't everything.

#71 Edited by TheBournePoster (961 posts) - - Show Bio
#72 Edited by Jayc1324 (12227 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok thanks and I understand what you mean now.

#73 Edited by dmreyn (28 posts) - - Show Bio

The larger you are, despite muscle mass, the slower you are in general. 275 lb linebacker against a 215 lb running back, both in top shape. Who would win in 40 yard sprint? My money's on the RB. Same with boxing. Watch the middle and lightweights fight vs heavyweight fights. There's no doubt that boxers have very little body fat, no matter what weigh class they belong. That being said, the lighter weight classes fight a a much faster rate. More muscle = more weight you have to carry while running/fighting/etc. also limits flexibility to an extent, as many have stated. This is getting really in depth, but there are two types of muscle fibers as well "speed type" and "strength type" to put it in layman terms. There's also the fact that the heart and lungs don't enlarge while the rest I your body (muscles/bones) enlarge, so thy have to work harder to provide more oxygenated blood to a much larger surface area. A 50 pound difference might not spun like much, but even just one extra pound of muscle will use a pretty increased amount of energy. Its almost impossible to be super fast and super strong. Not saying you can't posses aspects of both, but you can't fully maximize potential of both at the same time. I don't think this puts batman at a disadvantage, if anything he's more balanced as an athlete/fighter.

#74 Posted by Jayc1324 (12227 posts) - - Show Bio

Things are different in the comics. There's no way a guy of banana strength and size should be as acrobatic flexible and fast he is, but it happens.

#75 Posted by Xeno_Seeker (414 posts) - - Show Bio

BECAUSE HIS COSTUME IS LIGHTER. errrp durrrrp.

#76 Edited by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick is a little more faster than Bruce, and maybe more agile (but this is speculation).

We don't know why Dick is little more faster than Bruce, as we don't know why Bruce is more stronger and resistant than Dick, but I don't think that this depends on their muscles, because if this were truth, Bruce should weight at least 400lbs calculating his strength.

#77 Edited by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@thebourneposter said:

Are people forgetting that they have "fought" before? Bruce didn't want to fight, Dick did. And despite Nightwing's supposedly superior acrobatics, Batman made him look like a punk, dodging all hits but one (which he allowed) He was able to maneuver Nightwing around the battlefield at will.

Bruce was dodging Dick's hits because he could anticipate them, not because he was faster. Bruce knew what Dick would do because he taught him everything he knows about fighting.

This logic doesn't makes any sense, sorry. If were truth what you said, this means that every master can always beat his learner, and never the opposite. Batman was able to beat some his masters of martial arts in the years, included David Cain. Bruce can beat Dick because Bruce is just better than him.

#78 Posted by Jayc1324 (12227 posts) - - Show Bio

True

#79 Edited by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

I want be more specific. Dick is faster than Bruce in the hits, I mean, Dick can fight in way little more fast (because he is more flexible and fluid), but I think that he's not more faster than Bruce in the run, because (is scientifically proved) the runner must have a lot of strenght (in the legs) and high endurance, and in this case, Bruce as we know, is better than Dick. Maybe Bruce can't run more fast than Dick (Bruce could technically do it, for the reasons I wrote up), but can be as fast as him.

#80 Edited by lilcraig92 (80 posts) - - Show Bio

Both of em are peak human condition and Grayson much smaller then bruce. Size does matter regardless what you think. Plus Grayson is more athletically gifted then bruce is, I mean Grayson parents was very athletic its in his genes he came out of his mother doing somersaults lol.

#81 Posted by xephyr417 (5 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish I could just come in and be the definitive ender to all this... but this is the internet.

We already have canonical proof that Dick is faster. It makes sense. Why? He is younger, more flexible, a trained acrobat, the way he fights is simply a faster type of motion, like others have said his body has taken less of a beating, he is smaller and easier to maneuver... the list goes on. I would also say he would win in a footrace (not that that matters...) for the reasons mentioned above. I would also saw he wins in rooftop crawling speed for the reasons mentioned above.

Bruce has Dick on experience and probably general fighting knowledge and reamins his superior in fighting, detective work, being Batman etc... But let's not forget, to the people (person) claiming Dick is overrated, that he is probably the only other person who could have ever been a Batman. Give the guy some credit for having been trained and GRADUATED from the school of Batman. Some people are just way too diehard "BATMAN IS THE BEST AT EVERYTHING THERE IS TO BE GOOD AT FOREVER" I think you are a pretty bad teacher if your pupils don't surpass you in at least a few ways.

#82 Edited by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick could never be Batman...Dick has not his genius. Batman is still the best in bat-family: the best genius, best peak human, best detective, best strategist, he have the best gadget, the best plans and a lot of secrets....and now, with the New 52, all this has been confirmed.

#83 Edited by Jayc1324 (12227 posts) - - Show Bio

It didnt seem believeable to me when dick was batman. Look at batmans physique in arkham city, theres no way dick can look like that.

#84 Posted by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

Moreover, the great inferiority of Dick was seen when he faced the Talon (this example is in canon and very fresh). Bruce was able to beat him even if tortured and wounded. Dick, at contrary, in the his top physical shape, is almost been killed by the Owl.

#85 Edited by MadeinBangladesh (6885 posts) - - Show Bio

Because he is younger than Batman?

#86 Edited by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m always under the impression that Dick could take Bruce in the speed department. I think that he could also win a few fights against him too. I may be biased because Grayson rivals Bruce as my favourite comic character. From a young age, Dick was nimble, athletic, and flexible. It comes so naturally to him, more than it does Bruce. His training with Bruce from a young age (I’m ignoring the reboot. Dick was with Bruce from 8 or 10, till he became Nightwing in my eyes), would have made him even faster and stronger, not to mention a brilliant fighter. Again given the fact that he doesn’t have the muscle mass of Bruce makes him faster.

None of the Bat-Family will ever be able to take Bruce in a fight or surpass him, for the simple reason is that it won’t be allowed. DC wouldn’t let one of the graduates of the Bat Academy actually be on par or over take the grand master himself, no matter how much they deserve to be. Such a thing would be blasphemy.

On another note. I agree with the notion of making Tim Drake an Olympic gymnast is stupid. It takes away from the fact that he was just a normal kid who figured out that Bruce was Batman and then had to become Robin the hard way though rigorous training because it didn’t come naturally with his body.

#87 Edited by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@neale7 said:

I’m always under the impression that Dick could take Bruce in the speed department. I think that he could also win a few fights against him too. I may be biased because Grayson rivals Bruce as my favourite comic character. From a young age, Dick was nimble, athletic, and flexible. It comes so naturally to him, more than it does Bruce. His training with Bruce from a young age (I’m ignoring the reboot. Dick was with Bruce from 8 or 10, till he became Nightwing in my eyes), would have made him even faster and stronger, not to mention a brilliant fighter. Again given the fact that he doesn’t have the muscle mass of Bruce makes him faster.

None of the Bat-Family will ever be able to take Bruce in a fight or surpass him, for the simple reason is that it won’t be allowed. DC wouldn’t let one of the graduates of the Bat Academy actually be on par or over take the grand master himself, no matter how much they deserve to be. Such a thing would be blasphemy.

On another note. I agree with the notion of making Tim Drake an Olympic gymnast is stupid. It takes away from the fact that he was just a normal kid who figured out that Bruce was Batman and then had to become Robin the hard way though rigorous training because it didn’t come naturally with his body.

Did you type this in MS Word?

#88 Posted by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio
#89 Posted by RustyRoy (12718 posts) - - Show Bio
#90 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@neale7 said:

@veshark: I did indeed lol

I didn't notice it at first...then I did a double-take and was like....wait a minute...I've seen that font before...lol

#91 Edited by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy: How come lol?

@veshark: Haha you know your fonts.

Changed it now. It does look and read better lol.

#92 Edited by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

The young age don't means nothing, otherwise Tim should be more fast than Dick....

#93 Posted by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@alexander505: I don't think it's about age in general. Dick was already a fantastic athlete by the time he was 8-10 or whatever age his rents died. His muscles and flexibility would be better from the gymnastic and acrobatic work he'd have gone through, compared to the age of when Bruce started. Also take into account Dick continued his training under Bruce for years, and continues his training to this day as Nightwing. He should in my opinion be able to run rings around Bruce in terms of speed and agility.

#94 Posted by Black_Claw (2988 posts) - - Show Bio

Troll Answer: Because Dick is younger

Serious Answer: Because Dick was already an Athlete as a kid and when Bruce took him in, his training only made Dick better than he already was.

#95 Posted by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick said was more fast in the hits, not in the run and not in agility. How runner, Bruce should be more fast than Dick, because he has more strength and endurance. Dick is just more fluid.

#96 Posted by RDClip (1129 posts) - - Show Bio

The young age don't means nothing, otherwise Tim should be more fast than Dick....

Tim is still a kid, though; he's still developing. Dick is at the peak age of physical strength, speed, and endurance.

#97 Posted by DarkKnight1939 (148 posts) - - Show Bio

There are various factors that make Dick Grayson faster. Firstly is his gymnastic background; he would have a been training and stretching his body to the limits a lot earlier than Bruce, and he still retains this. Secondly is his age. Dick is I'd say a good 15 years younger than Bruce. It's only natural that Bruce is slower, he's past his prime. Thirdly is the training, not only does he have a gymnastic background, but he trained under the guidance of Batman himself, it is only natural that he goes above and beyond that of his mentor. And lastly, a minor factor, the suits Batman wears, as well as the additional cape, can be a lot heavier and chunkier than Nightwings tight costume.

#98 Posted by EnigmaLantern (763 posts) - - Show Bio

There are various factors that make Dick Grayson faster. Firstly is his gymnastic background; he would have a been training and stretching his body to the limits a lot earlier than Bruce, and he still retains this. Secondly is his age. Dick is I'd say a good 15 years younger than Bruce. It's only natural that Bruce is slower, he's past his prime. Thirdly is the training, not only does he have a gymnastic background, but he trained under the guidance of Batman himself, it is only natural that he goes above and beyond that of his mentor. And lastly, a minor factor, the suits Batman wears, as well as the additional cape, can be a lot heavier and chunkier than Nightwings tight costume.

I think that pretty much explains it all.

#99 Posted by ssbm (92 posts) - - Show Bio

why must Bruce be faster than Dick OP says that he thinks that Dick is overrated in comparison to bruce who it seems that if anyone approaches his abilities there is a theread with someone complaining about it i say let him be faster in fact let him be a better fighter let tim be a better detective let damien if should rise from the dead be a better engineer bruce has been too perfect for too long what the point in him having portages if the don't surpass their mentor

#100 Posted by Jayc1324 (12227 posts) - - Show Bio

Because batmam is supposed to be peak human