Why do people have a problem with Burtons Batman killing

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darkdetective27

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Ive noticed a lot of people complain that in the Tim Burton Batman films Batman kills. I know Batman doesnt kill in the comics, but he has in the past. In his early comics hedid kill. His first appearance had someone fall into a pit of acid, he used a gun to kill two vampires, and he even hanged a man on the bat plane. The Burton Batman films seemed to be drawing from these early comics to return him to his roots and distance it from the 60s Batman. In this sense I think it makes sense that he kills because it seems they are adapting this Batman with more of Tim Burtons gothic style and some of the modern additions. Even the distanced Bruce Wayne that doesnt enjoy high society life seems to be from the early comics as well. Looking at like this I think its unfair of them to criticize Batman for killing. Another comic that an influence on the film was the Killing Joke which sort of stresses that as long as they both lived their battle would continue forever. Burton probably felt that killing Joker would be the only way to truely end the story and give a conclusion. Hell Joker almost died in his first issue before the editor told them to keep him alive. So do you think the reason people criticize the killing is that they dont know or think about it like this or do you think its that it doesnt match up with their view of Batman?

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_Mongul

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Burton's Batman isn't even close to drawing inspiration from the Golden Age.

I doubt Burton thought this in-depth about it, and he just wanted Batman to kill a thug.

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darkdetective27

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ArkhamWrath

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Em... i... can not remember scene where Batman gonna to kill someone in Burton movies... I can't remember it !!! Little help ?

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darkdetective27

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@arkhamwrath: He blew up a factory which probably had people in it in the first movie then in the second one he set a guy on fire and smiled while he blew up another one.

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silent_bomber

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#6  Edited By silent_bomber

@_mongul said:

Burton's Batman isn't even close to drawing inspiration from the Golden Age.

The first Batman movie sometimes follows Detective Comics #27 and Batman #1 scene by scene.

Other scenes in the movie seem to be adaptations of sections in Batman #5 & Detective Comics #31

(There's also a homage to an episode of Adam West Batman in there)

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_Mongul

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silent_bomber

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Its been a while since I posted this so....

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I took the majority of this information from a website (I think Batman-Online?) all I personally did was order it and make it into easy to repost images (I think I might have replaced some pictures too, and added some stuff too, but I can't remember anymore).

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darkdetective27

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#9  Edited By darkdetective27
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_Mongul

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@silent_bomber: You're not serious, right?

Those are just genetic Batman images. Of course Batman is going to look the same with his cape out. Of course Joker will have a wide, creepy smile. Of course Batman is gonna meet with Gordon on a rooftop.

This is less "taking inspiration from Golden Age" so much as it is "including basic Batman tropes".

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DeathpooltheT1000

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I have more problem with him not saving a family that him killing people.

Also the idea that some of the Batman movie take nothing from the comics is insane.

The whole Nolan take nothing is a common argument, but people has try to use it against every single Batman movie.

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silent_bomber

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#12  Edited By silent_bomber

@_mongul said:

Those are just genetic Batman images.

The word you are looking for is generic

@_mongul said:

Of course Batman is going to look the same with his cape out.

I take it you didn't read anything that was posted.

The image is of Batman jumping down with his cape out through the skylight of a Chemical works after eavesdropping on Gordon at a social gathering, before knocking someone into a Vat (ie the first 3rd of the Batman movie follows one comic)

Detective Comics #27 has been merged with Joker's origin from Detective Comics #168 to save time (wise decision).

@_mongul said:

Of course Batman is gonna meet with Gordon on a rooftop.

Wow.... you really didn't read it.

At no stage in what I posted did Gordon meet Batman on a rooftop.

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Some others in the second section, fair enough some elements are in many comics, but what you have to take into account here is that this second section is all from just one frikkin' comic! and I wouldn't say Joker dying with a grin on his face is a trope either.

What is more likely? that they took all these elements from different comics over different years that happened to coincidentally also take place in Batman #1, or that they just took them all from Batman #1 itself?

@_mongul said:

This is less "taking inspiration from Golden Age" so much as it is "including basic Batman tropes".

Basic tropes such as Batman machine-gunning people from the Batplane?

If I wanted to just list tropes this thing would be three times longer. There is already other stuff I could add, for example in the Golden Age, Batman killed a guy by flipping him over his head and down a hole behind him, much like what he does to Joker's bodyguard, I didn't feel that it was worth posting so I left it out.

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Honestly Batman (1989) being based on the Golden Age is pretty obvious when you think about it, heck the fact that everyone is dressed in 1940s clothing and all the buildings are Art Deco in design should've been your first clue.

Frozen also mentioned in a PM to me a good while back that he'd read about the Producer explicitly saying that they wanted to use early stuff for the film because they were aiming for a timeless feel (I guess they were worried current trends would change).

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_Mongul

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@silent_bomber: If you honestly can't understand that these are basic Batman elements to incorporate into a film, I really don't know what else to tell you other than that you're grasping at straws.

The Batwing always fires a machine gun - It did so in its debut in TDKR universe and we already have a clip of it doing it in BvS.

Because those films are clearly GA inspired, eh? Nah. They're just Batman inspired.

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redleader1

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The problem is that it does not adapt the golden age well. That batman killed as a last resort, when he proved there was no way to save the monster men, or by accident. Burton's batman kills cause its easy and cause that's what heroes did in the 80s. Nolan's batman is closer to golden age batman in that respect. The ninja deaths and ras's death feel very much like golden age batman. Golden age batman never blew up a factory if people esspecially without checking for hostages. Golden age batman was brutal but he did not kill people like it was nothing it was usually accidents or circumstantial. In 89 he kills arbitrarily and at random.

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#16  Edited By silent_bomber

@redleader1 said:

Golden age batman was brutal but he did not kill people like it was nothing it was usually accidents or circumstantial.

This is not true, Batman killed people like it was nothing many times.

He had escaped the gunman in this scene, and had many options, but chose to kill -

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Doctor Death ended up coming back again, but that scene still shows how little Golden Age Batman actually cares.

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redleader1

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@silent_bomber: how the hell is not being fireproof the same thing as killing a man. Dr death let himself "die". Also like I said it was heat of the moment or accidental. He does not seem to intend wholly to kill the thug but doesn't weep over it. There's a difference between not caring that a criminal died and blowing up a factory. Plus he killed as last resorts outside if the rare ocation. Do you really mortally think that punching a man who falls over a railing is the same thing as strapping a bomb to a guys chest or catching a guy on fire. With Golden age bats it was a 50/50 chance you die and he did not care if you did but its not like his first instinct was cold blooded murder. He showed tons of restraint before the neck kick. How jaded can you be to think that dr deaths death is anything the same as blowing up a factory that may have hostages or innocent people in it.

Take the example of a runaway trolly that's about to hit a wall. Only you can pull a lever that will direct it at 1 innocent person which will slow it down when if hits them. Then take the example of a runaway trolly that only you can save the people in side of if you shove a person next to you in front of it to slow it down. They may seem like the same but they are not.

Golden age bats goes into a fight to knock thugs out but if they put him in a situation where he must kill them he will begrudgingly as we see in batman issue 1 with the monster men story. That's not the same thing as directly intentionally killing a bunch of people without even engaging in hand to hand conflict first. Golden age batman may ocationally kill in retaliation but that's very different from 89 bats commuting pre planned murder and shooting first asking questions later.

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#18  Edited By silent_bomber

He does not seem to intend wholly to kill the thug but doesn't weep over it.

  • He killed the thug on purpose when he didn't have to.
  • He was in no danger at all. He had escaped and could've swung around the building or climbed.
  • His list afterwards infers that he also killed "Jabah" whom he lassoed around the neck from behind.

Golden Age Batman does not kill as a last resort, if someone attacks him he is not fussed about killing them.

There is no "begrudgingly" about it, after murdering that group of people with the statue, this is how Batman and Robin react -

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Most of the rest of your post is straw-manning. No, I do not think "punching a man who falls over a railing is the same thing as strapping a bomb to a guys chest" I do however think its not much different to strangling someone from behind, jumping into a room and crushing people with a giant statue, or KO-ing a guard and swapping clothes with him so that he gets shot dead instead of you.

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redleader1

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@silent_bomber: the question is why do people dislike it in 89. Here's your answer its because of the face that he commits pre planned murder and goes out of his way to kill. Yes he does that sometimes in the golden age but those are the exception not the rule. 89 bats burnt a man to death when protected by his car and without trying to take him down normally. That's very different then dropping a statue during the heat of battle. They are different things. In fine with stuff like the stairwell kill for instance but the problem is the pre planned mad murder. You can get away with so e stuff but having him full on comit mass murder is to far. Also by begrugenly I should have said " did not smile joyfully at the death of a man". In returns he kills a man and freaking smiles.

Yes golden age batman kills but he never was joyful and he never commuted mass murder that's the problem. You can't fix that glaring problem just cause he dropped a statue on guys once and kicked dr deaths thugs neck in and lassoed the other thugs neck. Those are not the same as mass murder and taking joy in murder. Golden age batman did do some stuff that was pretty far but your bullsh**ing to say that that makes what burton batman does okay.

Yes some burton batman kills work with the golden age excuse but you loose that defense with the pre planned mass murder. There is a big difference. If that did not happen then maybe its fine but that in pretucular ruins it.

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_Mongul

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@silent_bomber: It's funny that you're tossing out logical fallacies, when you keep attributing coincidences to inspiration.

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Take a look at this link: http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2010/11/killer-batman.html

It does taint his character in many ways, but Batman killing is nothing new. I can see why people would be mad about it; Batman not killing makes him a much better character.

I honestly don’t like it, but it’s sort of cool to see it sometimes.

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Yes golden age batman kills but he never was joyful.

Well, he looks pretty Joyful in the picture above your post to me tbh.

But OK, now that this is moving strictly to premeditated murder, fair enough I can't think of any evidence of GA Batman planning murder in advance, I don't feel that this is as drastic a point as you (as I could see GA Batman doing it) but fair enough.

@_mongul said:

It's funny that you're tossing out logical fallacies

Dude you resorted to completely making up rooftop meetings with Gordon to argue against :/

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DeathpooltheT1000

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_Mongul

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@silent_bomber: I didn't do that. Go ahead and rewatch Batman, that's EXACTLY what Bruce does.

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_Mongul

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@deathpoolthet1000: Coming from the guy who never makes good arguments and resorts to posting retarded memes from 2004. Are you foreign or something? That would seriously explain why your grammar is always horrid and you post these irrelevant pictures that literally nobody finds funny.

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#27  Edited By silent_bomber

@_mongul

Essentially your whole argument works like this -

  1. You ignore the majority of my post. #
  2. You relentlessly attack the weakest point, pretending nothing else exists.
  3. You then fabricate elements not in the post in order to make that particular point look less credible than it actually is.

# For example you are yet to explain the use of 40s clothing and decor, or the words of the film's producer.

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_Mongul

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@silent_bomber: I haven't ignored anything.

Everything you've presented thus far can be attributed to coincidence. The majority of it is really reaching.

The 40s style is simply an asthetic choice to better fit his cartoony world. I must have missed the producer's words.

If Batman is so inspired by the GA, why is the most important part, the BATSUIT, not? Of all things, wouldn't you want to get the character himself correct?

So, I maintain;

Batman was inspired by a multitude of Batman comics from across multiple decades. The GA isn't the sole factor, nor is it the largest.

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@_mongul said:

If Batman is so inspired by the GA, why is the most important part, the BATSUIT, not?

@_mongul said:

The 40s style is simply an aesthetic choice to better fit his cartoony world.

My god, and you say I'm reaching?

Burton's Batsuit isn't directly inspired by anything, they thought spandex would look silly and they couldn't understand why Batman would be Blue so they changed it. They thought about real-world application and decided the chest should be like body-armour.

Batman during the 80s was wearing blue and grey spandex.

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darkdetective27

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#30  Edited By darkdetective27

@_mongul: Yeah the reason they didnt use the GA batsuit was because they felt it was silly and didnt make much sense. They wanted to go dark like the early comics, but they knew that the costume was too ridiculous so they changed it and made something original.

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#31  Edited By InnerVenom123

I don't care at this point tbh

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redleader1

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#32  Edited By redleader1

@silent_bomber: I would say he looks kinda joyful cause Kane can't draw faces well to save his life. Especially not those terrifying flowers with faces from the France issue during fox's time on the book.

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I think some of the issue people take with Keaton's Batman is the fact that he seems to enjoy killing. The scene where he sticks a thug with a bomb and throws traps him underground comes to mind. It didn't help that he smiled at this occasion.