#1 Posted by Mitchiekidd (145 posts) - - Show Bio

Sad to say i have never read one. Let me know what you think guys.

#2 Posted by Rudyftw (987 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman: Year 1

#3 Posted by EdwardWindsor (14428 posts) - - Show Bio

From a classic standpoint any of these. 

  • Year 1 (as above) - its what it syas on the cover batmans starting year
  • Long Halloween- Great arc and contains  flashes to Btamnas past
  • Hush- one of the best batman arcs in temrs of using his rogue gallery well
  • The Dark Knight Returns- an alternative universe story but very good none the less.
 
 Though if you mean new wait till spetember and try the new batman run sinc ethat will start form the begining probably.
#4 Posted by Urthiln (38 posts) - - Show Bio
@lazystudent said:

  • Long Halloween- Great arc and contains  flashes to Btamans past
 
If you're going to read the Long Halloween you have to read Dark Victory also.  Both are excellent.
#5 Posted by MrBigBalls (236 posts) - - Show Bio

I just started to get back into comics after many years, I recently got into the series Batman and Robin and I really like it.

#6 Posted by TheRedRobin (226 posts) - - Show Bio

Go with Batman or Detective Comics.
#7 Posted by Mitchiekidd (145 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks guys i think i will order the run of year 1, and than go on to some of the others listed. Thanks heaps!

#8 Posted by Feliciano2040 (654 posts) - - Show Bio
@lazystudent said:
From a classic standpoint any of these. 
  • Year 1 (as above) - its what it syas on the cover batmans starting year
  • Long Halloween- Great arc and contains  flashes to Btamnas past
  • Hush- one of the best batman arcs in temrs of using his rogue gallery well
  • The Dark Knight Returns- an alternative universe story but very good none the less.
  Though if you mean new wait till spetember and try the new batman run sinc ethat will start form the begining probably.
This.
 
It's pretty much the titles you're gonna need to get in shape, and these are NOT going to go out of print any time soon.
#9 Posted by BlackPookie (640 posts) - - Show Bio

BATMAN HUSH!... it will introduce u to all major events... after it read year 1,
#10 Posted by Feliciano2040 (654 posts) - - Show Bio
@BlackPookie said:
BATMAN HUSH!... it will introduce u to all major events... after it read year 1,
Perhaps it's better to read Year One first and then HUSH.
#11 Posted by ApeKindaBaked (104 posts) - - Show Bio
 

I loved Arkham Asylum from beginning to end. The art seems water colored and the story is great. Deff one of my favorite stories.
#12 Posted by BlackPookie (640 posts) - - Show Bio
@Feliciano2040
no... in year one he might get confused... if he reads hush it has an explanation for the major events that happened to bruce... 
then he can read everything according to an order..
#13 Posted by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's what I did.
 
I started reading Year One and then read only the major arcs.  
 
Go here and read all of the comics of Modern batman.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Batman_comics
 
Takes a while, but I really loved the journey. Just finished a few weeks ago!

Don't start with Hush if you know nothing about Batman you will be confused as crap.

#14 Posted by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio
@BlackPookie said:
@Feliciano2040: no... in year one he might get confused... if he reads hush it has an explanation for the major events that happened to bruce... then he can read everything according to an order..
seriously I tried starting with Hush and I was so lost. I didn't know who Talia was, who oracle was, who damian was, who huntress was... etc etc.
Better to start with Year One and read all major arcs. Makes for a much more enjoyable experience.
#15 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33490 posts) - - Show Bio
@apekindabaked said:
I loved Arkham Asylum from beginning to end. The art seems water colored and the story is great. Deff one of my favorite stories.
Damn beat me to it
#16 Posted by etragedy (1082 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's what I decided to do:
Read the first few collections of Batman Chronicles and Batman Archives.
Then get an overview of the next few decades with the trades Batman in the Forties, Batman in the Fifties, Batman in the Sixties, Batman in the Seventies, and Batman in the Eighties.
Then read Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Then begin reading the major modern era Batman story arcs beginning with Frank Miller's Batman: Year One.

#17 Posted by Feliciano2040 (654 posts) - - Show Bio
@BlackPookie: Dude NO ! It's Batman's first year as a crimefighter, how the hell is he going to get confussed ?
#18 Posted by BlackPookie (640 posts) - - Show Bio
@Feliciano2040
he could be because in year 1 everything is different from what he might be used to know. 
#19 Edited by Billy Batson (58031 posts) - - Show Bio

Detective Comics/Batman #1? The (the revamp one) Batman R.I.P.

BB

#20 Posted by CaptainJ (76 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mitchiekidd
Batman year 1 or Batman long halloween.
#21 Posted by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait... how is Year One in any way confusing??
Worst case read Shaman first

#22 Posted by shawn87 (2095 posts) - - Show Bio

While Year One isn't my favorite Batman comic it should be read and is an ideal starting point for new readers. Afterwards I would recommend The Long Halloween as so many other users already have. Here's a list of other choices as well: 

Batman: Hush Vol. 1

Batman: Hush Vol. 2 

Batman: Broken City

Batman: War Drums 

Batman: War Games Act 1

Batman: War Games Act 2

Batman: War Games Act 3

Batman: Under The Red Hood Vol. 1

Batman: War Crimes

Batman: Under The Red Hood Vol. 2 

Batman: Face The Face

Batman And Son

Batman: The Black Glove

Batman: The Resurrection Of Ra's Al Ghul 

Batman: Private Casebook 

Batman: Heart Of Hush

Batman R.I.P. 

Batman: Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader 

Batman: Battle For The Cowl

Batman: Long Shadows

Batman And Robin 1: Batman Reborn 

Batman And Robin 2: Batman Vs. Robin

Batman: Life After Death

Batman: Arkham Reborn 

Batman: Time And The Batman 

Batman: Return Of Bruce Wayne  

Batman And Robin 3: Batman Must Die

#23 Posted by EdhellenBrannon (2 posts) - - Show Bio

I myself am here to ask a question similar to his. I've read Batman: The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller and have seen part one and part 2 of the animated films. I've watched Under the Red Hood the animated film but not the book (my favorite). I have also read Batman the Dark Knight Golden Dawn by David Finch and Jason Fabok. Really what I intend on doing is learning more about when the first robin came to be, how he turned into Nightwing. How the second Robin came to be... The Joker's true origin and so on. I am pretty much summing up the original comics but is there any major story (like Batman the Dark Knight) which basically retells everything? Thanks! BTW I have also read the comics 499-503 and some parts dont make much sense like who is Jean Paul. What im looking for is something like the Knightfall Collection Volume 1 but whatever tells the original story is best!

#24 Edited by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Batman 404
  • Detective Comics 572
  • Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight 1
  • The Killing Joke
  • Robin: Year One
  • Nightwing vol 1 (mini-series)
  • Batgirl: Year One
  • History of the DC Universe
  • DC Universe Legacies

Those are where you should start... The last 2 tell the history of the DCU, The first is up to Crisis on Infinite Earths and the second is pretty much up to infinite Crisis it appears, but it finished in early 2011 so almost everything up to Flashpoint is taken into account.

Dark Knight and Dark Knight Returns are ok books, but not really pertinent to Batman as a character

Batgirl Special is an atrocity in my opinion and the only work of art of any kind that I reject as "existing" as some people reject Final Fantasy 9, but it seems the take in that book is the take that the current Batgirl is based on.

A book that you should read, even though it's not canon, is Kingdom Come. While it's not canon it is the guiding future of DCU and so it does give insight into plenty of things... It's kinda like the bible in terms of western literature, even if you don't believe it, you should have read it simply because of how much it influenced western literature and culture and so without reading you don't have a full understanding of the situation...so yeah. I recommend it on these terms... but also because it is a good book.

@etragedy

Here's what I decided to do:

Read the first few collections of Batman Chronicles and Batman Archives.

Then get an overview of the next few decades with the trades Batman in the Forties, Batman in the Fifties, Batman in the Sixties, Batman in the Seventies, and Batman in the Eighties.

Then read Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Then begin reading the major modern era Batman story arcs beginning with Frank Miller's Batman: Year One.

Batman Chronicles and Archives are not very good books nor are they canon, Reading Batman from the different eras isn't a very good idea because the comics have changed a lot through the ages and if you're looking for canon or accurate representation it's not useful and not to mention confusing.

CoIE Isn't a Batman tale so isn't needed and you can pick up everything you need to know from other sources, but it is a decent read.

What I did when I wanted to catch up on Batman is I started at 1987/88 and CoIE and then figured out every series' canonicity and decided whether it is related enough or not to Batman... I ended up with something like 4000 issues to read... took me about 6 months if I remember right, to get through all of them... And I do recommend that you read the issues in the order they come out, at least yearly, otherwise you do get lost.

#25 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@edhellenbrannon said:

I myself am here to ask a question similar to his. I've read Batman: The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller and have seen part one and part 2 of the animated films. I've watched Under the Red Hood the animated film but not the book (my favorite). I have also read Batman the Dark Knight Golden Dawn by David Finch and Jason Fabok. Really what I intend on doing is learning more about when the first robin came to be, how he turned into Nightwing. How the second Robin came to be... The Joker's true origin and so on. I am pretty much summing up the original comics but is there any major story (like Batman the Dark Knight) which basically retells everything? Thanks! BTW I have also read the comics 499-503 and some parts dont make much sense like who is Jean Paul. What im looking for is something like the Knightfall Collection Volume 1 but whatever tells the original story is best!

  • Batman 0 (general history of Batman)
  • Detective Comics 0 (general history of Batman)
  • Batman - Sword of Azrael (Jean-Paul Valley)
  • Batman - Vengeance of Bane I (Bane)

If you just read through the series of Batman titles in order you'll get most of the origin stories, if you start where I said... I don't know where Jason Todd's story is retold, but Tim's in the TPB "A Lonely Place of Dying" Spoiler's Origin is just before the Robin series begins. Damian's origin you have to read the various Morrison run TPBs. I don't think Helena's origin is ever covered in depth. Cassandra Cain's origin is in "No Man's Land".

#27 Posted by EdhellenBrannon (2 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: I didnt mean to focus on soley origins. I want to read the actual story without having spoilers if you know what I mean. For example, I read issue X and it tells me that Batman is mourning over someone who died in a previous issue.

#28 Edited by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@edhellenbrannon: Like i said, just start with the issues I said in my first post and just read through a year at a time. The only time there is any major over lap is really Knight Saga and NML, both of which you need to read issue by issues and not TPBs becaue the TPBs don't collect them right.

Another possible one is War Games and Infinite Crisis...

Generally speaking there aren't "spoilers" because the most the plan out is a year in advance and so the various stories can't overlap and spoil each other without considerable effort

#29 Edited by etragedy (1082 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@etragedy

Here's what I decided to do:

Read the first few collections of Batman Chronicles and Batman Archives.

Then get an overview of the next few decades with the trades Batman in the Forties, Batman in the Fifties, Batman in the Sixties, Batman in the Seventies, and Batman in the Eighties.

Then read Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Then begin reading the major modern era Batman story arcs beginning with Frank Miller's Batman: Year One.

Batman Chronicles and Archives are not very good books nor are they canon, Reading Batman from the different eras isn't a very good idea because the comics have changed a lot through the ages and if you're looking for canon or accurate representation it's not useful and not to mention confusing.

CoIE Isn't a Batman tale so isn't needed and you can pick up everything you need to know from other sources, but it is a decent read.

What I did when I wanted to catch up on Batman is I started at 1987/88 and CoIE and then figured out every series' canonicity and decided whether it is related enough or not to Batman... I ended up with something like 4000 issues to read... took me about 6 months if I remember right, to get through all of them... And I do recommend that you read the issues in the order they come out, at least yearly, otherwise you do get lost.

Who says Batman Chronicles and Archives are not very good books? Some of the best Batman stories ever told are in those volumes. Who said anything about canon? The OP didn't say they were only interested in canon.

Reading Batman from different eras IS a good idea precisely because the comics have changed a lot through the ages and it gives a good overview of how the character has changed and been interpreted differently throughout the years.

No, COIE isn't a Batman only story, but it is useful in understanding how he was reinvented for the modern era, the setup for Year One.

Just because a story isn't canon doesn't mean it isn't good. Stories like The Killing Joke, Kingdom Come, and the Dark Knight Returns are some of the best stories with Batman (and some of the best superhero comics in general), and aren't canon. Besides, what is canon is always changing.

#30 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@etragedy:

I say they're not very good books. They get so many things about the characters wrong and the stories are just bland, if not offensive, or bad.

While reading other stories is good for an overview of the character history and how the medium have changed him it shouldn't be something you should read and really pay attention to when just getting to know the character.

Sure is. I actually forgot about it and would have added it to my list of beginning spots.

Dark Knight and Dark Knight Returns does not belong in that list. They are ok, but compared to so many other stories they aren't anything special. They're mediocre "event" comics which puts them above the average comic you'd pick up off the shelf, but compared to other event stories they are on the bottom of the pile in so many ways.

#31 Edited by etragedy (1082 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: They are good books - not all of them but some of them. They couldn't possibly get the characters wrong because they were creating the characters. They're only 'wrong' based on what came after, not what came before that time.

Absolutely you should read and pay attention to those things when getting to know the characters, especially if all you know about them is like the 60s TV show or something - it helps understand how different the character is and how changed since then.

The Dark Knight returns was not an event comic it was a standalone mini-series and was later a graphic novel. One of the best of the 80s, and in no way 'mediocre'. Many, many people consider it one of the best (if not the best) Batman story ever told.

From wikipedia: IGN Comics ranked The Dark Knight Returns second on a list of the 25 greatest Batman graphic novels, behind Batman: Year One,[7] and called The Dark Knight Returns, "a true masterpiece of storytelling" with "[s]cene after unforgettable scene."[8] In 2005, Time chose the collected edition as one of the 10 best English language graphic novels ever written.[9]Forbidden Planet placed the collected issue at number one on its "50 Best of the Best Graphic Novels" list.[10] Writer Matthew K. Manning in the "1980s" chapter of DC Comics Year By Year A Visual Chronicle (2010) called the series "arguably the best Batman story of all time."[11]

If you don't like it fine - but don't claim that it isn't recognized as such.

#32 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@etragedy: Those book came in the mid-2000s... that's in the last sixth of the modern age... not creating them

No may think that but i disagree, especially since I look at these forums and see how wrong people get things largely because they get confused with those other incarnations.

I know it wasn't an event comic. But it's in the same category more or less.

People think that LofR is a good story. It's not. It's poorly written and an incredibly bland and cliche story. It is however a good world building book. Likewise, there is something good about TDK and TDKR but it isn't as good story or something like that and it is especially not a good Batman story, but it does have an ineffable quality that many may mistake for being "good" like so much other artwork out there. I never claimed others don't view it as good.I said it wasn't anything more than mediocre and it has nothing to do with whether I like it or not. I separate what I like from what I think is good.

#33 Edited by etragedy (1082 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: They are collections of golden age reprints. The stories were originally written in the 30s and 40s, NOT "the last sixth of the modern age", and WERE creating the characters for the first time. They include many of the characters first appearances. Stop spouting patently incorrect information.

You are also wrong about LOTR, they are incredibly well written. Professor Tolkien was a master of the English language who even worked on the Oxford English dictionary.

With regards to TDKR, if you separate what you like from what is good - then you are pretty clearly in the wrong as the TDKR is far, far, far from mediocre.

#34 Posted by Billy Batson (58031 posts) - - Show Bio

How do the original creators get the character wrong?
BB

#35 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@billy_batson: They're not the original creators, neither for the first incarnation nor the incarnation we are talking about.

Further even if someone "creates" a character it doesn't mean they are consistent with them, in which case the original is correct and inconsistent version is incorrect... as time goes on however if the inconsistent becomes the standard then the original isn't incorrect, but said to be a less developed version of the character.

#36 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@etragedy: Then I'm thinking of a different series and I appologize.

LotR is not well written. The text may be grammatically correct and the world may be detailed, but the his ability to tell a story and pain a picture with that text is awful. Some say it gets better after where I stopped but it is quite literally the book that made me stop reading fiction for a long time because it was so dull and boring and badly written.

I think maybe Kant is the only other writer that I would love to punch in the face if I ever met after having read their work. Not because they aren't good in some respect, but because their work is just so infuriating to read. I can give you examples of what I mean what they do... in fact I think I will real quick...

Tolkien's writing pretty much goes like this in form...

"Once upon a time there was a solar system and in that solar system there was a planet, third from it's star, the Earth, covered in water. Several islands, called continents populated this world and upon one of them in the western hemisphere there was a nation called the USA, divided into territories and in those territories, states. In one of these states there is a town called Hell where there stood a house where 3 people lived and spent their day playing all sorts of games with their wii. Next to the wii was an old and dusty x-box 360 that was broken and hadn't been used for many years even though it was bought for a fairly large sum from a massive corporation who proclaimed to have many fabulous games that would take the player on many adventures. Down the street from this house Satan was throwing a party."

The final sentence is just about the only important part of that paragraph... and Tolkien makes that paragraph full chapters and does it constantly. That's horrendous writing, unless your goal is world building which Tolkien is excellent at, but for a story it is bad.

Kant I don't need to write that much...Kant's problem is that he will write 5 or 6 paragraphs and saying the exact same thing as each other written in different ways and using different metaphors and then at the very end he'll say "and that's how that works" even though he doesn't really explain anything or he doesn't explain enough for him to draw the conclusion he does. Worse is that his general writing is hard to read and isn't well put together.

Though this doesn't at all matter to the topic lol and if you want to follow up PM me, but I think I'll try to stop talking about LotR because it always leads to people being mad.

TDK and TDKR are poorly put together and bastardized the characters... That's not really unexpected of Miller and it's been a while since I've read them so I can't give you specifics as to why I think it's bad because it isn't good enough or bad enough to leave much of an impression other than it is incredibly overhyped and is just barely competent work. Though if you disagree that's fine. I'm pretty sure you are mistaking that quality I mentioned as it being good rather than you thinking it was a well put together story, good art, etc... And that's fine, but even if you think that, it's still unimportant to following Batman or understanding the character because it is so off and it's not canon. I have no problem with saying you should read it as well as those other earlier works if you're doing an in depth study of the complete history of Batman and how some of it's writers seem to think about Batman. Certainly Miller, Morison, Snyder, and Johns all disagree with me about the character, but they all also disagree with each other and the only one who has written a book that is universally considered good about Batman is the one that everyone thinks is the Psycho of the group that told one of the worst Batman stories ever as well which ASB&RTBW so who knows lol

#37 Edited by etragedy (1082 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@etragedy: Then I'm thinking of a different series and I appologize.

LotR is not well written. The text may be grammatically correct and the world may be detailed, but the his ability to tell a story and pain a picture with that text is awful. Some say it gets better after where I stopped but it is quite literally the book that made me stop reading fiction for a long time because it was so dull and boring and badly written.

Apology accepted on the Chronicles and Archives point.

But on LOTR, once again, you are spouting subjective opinion, not facts.

If I say LOTR or TDKR is good because I happen to like it then I am stating an opinion, not a fact.

If you say LOTR or TDKR is bad because you happen to not like them, then you are stating an opinion, not a fact.

But if I say that LOTR is considered a classic of English Literature on many reading lists and was awarded the International Fantasy Award, or that the sources (cited above) have listed TDKR among the best graphic novels ever written - that is a fact.

Your entire argument about LOTR is based on the fact that you read (part) of it and you couldn't finish it because you didn't like it. That is opinion, not fact. If you further go on to state that something like LOTR or TDKR is qualitatively bad solely because you say it is, then you have crossed over from making a statement of opinion to making a erroneous statement of fact.

As for TDKR...

@durakken said: it's still unimportant to following Batman or understanding the character because it is so off and it's not canon.

Once again you mention canon, and once again I point out that that is totally irrelevant, as this thread is not about what is canonical and what is not.

#38 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@etragedy: You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. The reason I stopped reading the book is because the story was dull and not well written. I wasn't looking for a world building book. If you do what Tolkien does in any literature class you will be told to rewrite it because it is a bunch useless detail that takes away from the story, makes it artificially longer, and it's painfully boring, even if what it is talking about is interesting because you are mixing up what the focus is.

People think art is "subjective" when it's not. There are things that are better and things that are worse to do what you want. It's a technical skill and it is fact based. Of course it is subjective in that what is and isn't better or worse is determined by humans, but within the confines of humanity and communicating whatever idea you have well, Tolkien is a well put together story.

As far as not having read the rest...I have seen the rest of Tolkien's story. It's cliche and dull, and to some extents it was meant to be, but that's no excuse. I've also heard countless people talk about and why people think it's good and all that. It always has to do with world building and not the actual story. I simply distinguish good story telling and good world building which can be done together, but Tolkien doesn't do it. That's enough for me to comment on the story and having read half the first book I have enough knowledge of his style to critique it and reading the whole thing will not change what i think of that style. The only thing that would change if I read all three books is perhaps how good the world building is.

You, like most people, seem to have this idea that anything said about art is opinion base. This simply isn't true. Line thickness, composition, and other such things, even the idea of beauty, are not subjective. because human brains work a given way and certain things communicate this or that better and this or that we now know pretty much why and how we come to the conclusion that something is scary or beautiful or cute. I will grant you that when most people talk about how good something is they are talking about whether they like it or not and not whether it is technically good or bad. I separate them and what I'm saying is technically based and I try to be as objective as possible. Whether you want to accept this is up to you, but it is the truth.

Maybe thinking about food will let you understand a bit better... Whether someone likes a specific food or not does not change whether that food is put together well or whether it is sweet, salty, or sour. Your like of whatever food is 1 thing, however something being sweet is a scientific fact. Whether something is burnt or not is a scientific fact. Etc. Some people like burnt food. It doesn't change that "burnt" isn't the best way to deliver a given experience. The problem is that What is "good" and what people "like" are similar because if people didn't like it to begin with generally it wouldn't be good... though that falls apart with certain things which makes the entire idea that good and like are related fall apart.

#39 Posted by MaccyD (4081 posts) - - Show Bio

If you're looking for canonical then don't go for Year One. New 52 pretty much ruined its credibility, although I think the New 52 version; Year Zero; is currently in progress so try that.

Durakken: It's only cliche cause you're used to typical fantasy tales. This invented that cliche, as many tried to copy its style.

Art is subjective, you may see a story about hobbits against evil, I see: the instability of dictatorships, the rise of industry and its destruction to nature, reflection on religion, brainwashing, mortality,greed of humanity and many others.

It's not only popular for its world-building, its popular because it's a subtle work of art with many metaphors hidden throughout. Tolkien is brilliant in the way he uses a fictional world to change the way we see our world. Tolkien knew that people only notice some things when they find there's an alternative and uses this fully.

#40 Posted by etragedy (1082 posts) - - Show Bio
@durakken said:

@etragedy: You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. The reason I stopped reading the book is because the story was dull and not well written. I wasn't looking for a world building book. If you do what Tolkien does in any literature class you will be told to rewrite it because it is a bunch useless detail that takes away from the story, makes it artificially longer, and it's painfully boring, even if what it is talking about is interesting because you are mixing up what the focus is.

People think art is "subjective" when it's not. There are things that are better and things that are worse to do what you want. It's a technical skill and it is fact based. Of course it is subjective in that what is and isn't better or worse is determined by humans, but within the confines of humanity and communicating whatever idea you have well, Tolkien is a well put together story.

You are mistaking a well put together story for good writing. It is one component only. There are lots of well put together stories that aren't good writing for other reasons. There are lots of examples of good writing that aren't well put together stories. The works of William Shakespere alone has many examples of good writing that aren't particularly well put together stories.

@durakken said:

People think art is "subjective" when it's not. There are things that are better and things that are worse to do what you want. It's a technical skill and it is fact based. Of course it is subjective in that what is and isn't better or worse is determined by humans, but within the confines of humanity and communicating whatever idea you have well, Tolkien is a well put together story.

Art is [i]both[/i] objective [i]and[/i] subjective. To say that it is not subjective is wrong.

@durakken said:

@etragedy:

You, like most people, seem to have this idea that anything said about art is opinion base. This simply isn't true.

Do not presume that you know what I think. I have never said that everything about art is opinion based, nor do I agree with that statement. Whether or not most people have that idea, I don't know, but I do not.

@durakken said:

@etragedy: Line thickness, composition, and other such things, even the idea of beauty, are not subjective. because human brains work a given way and certain things communicate this or that better and this or that we now know pretty much why and how we come to the conclusion that something is scary or beautiful or cute.

And most of all do not lecture me about the quantitative aspects of art. I do have a Masters Degree from one of the top art schools in the world.

You need to stop assuming 1) that you know what I (or anyone else) thinks or believes, and 2) that 'good stories' or any other single element makes a work of art good or bad. There are many dimensions to what makes something good or bad and it need not meet all criteria to be good or bad. Picasso's work is a total failure when it comes to photorealism. It's a greater success when viewed in terms of color, mood and abstract expression. I'll be the first to admit that plot is not Tolkien's strong suit - his strengths are in creating mood, character development, use of language and many other things. The same is true of H.P. Lovecraft, whose stories are primarily notable for their imaginative qualities and Lovecraft's total mastery of language, rather than their plots (many of which are nearly identical). It gets even more complex when you talk about collaborative arts. The Big Sleep is a terrible story - the plot is incomprehensible at best, downright flawed and contradictory at worst, but it is a good movie because of the cinematography, the onscreen chemistry between Bogart and Bacall, and many other things. For that matter, even Citizen Kane, widely hailed as one of the best films ever made isn't a particularly 'good story', it's dull and simplistic, but its still considered a masterpiece (and rightly so) for its many other outstanding qualities. And the same goes for comics which comprise both writing and art.

I'm done though, if you can't see that just because you are unaware of, or discount some of the aspects that make LOTR or TDKR great, doesn't mean that they aren't. To use your food analogy, you are only judging based on whether something is sweet enough or salty enough and whether it's burned or not, while totally discounting the foods texture, aroma, digestability, etc. etc.

#41 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@etragedy: Degrees from colleges are largely worthless sorry to inform you and the fact that you try to use that as part of your argument shows that your school failed to some degree. People, properly educated do not argue from authority, but rather from valid argumentations and scientific facts.

You also missed the word "seem" which means, that it "looks like to me" and not that you do think, but that you seem to think to me. Whether you do or not is irrelevant when it seems you do by bent of your argumentation.

Putting together a story is part of writing, and language. Your statement that Tolkien create's mood is just wrong, that's the problem with his writing to begin with. All that excessive world building text that doesn't have anything to do with the story is precisely why you don't do that. Nor do the character develop, at least as far as I have seen. They are purely utilitarian characters that if anything only go through weakening or strengthening of the character traits that are already there at random pretty much. That is not character development. Development is when a trait transforms into a something new or when a trait is changed so that the character before is not the same as before but has an understandable path. The most you get out of LotR is at the end Frodo decides "I can't go back home because I have seen the world and I won't fit in." That, if you take it as development isn't actually logical progressed through out the story and if you don't it's just an out of nowhere moralizing nonsense. His use of language isn't good because he goes into those long winded, dull, detailed, information about things that don't matter. He's telling a story, not building a world. He's trying to communicate an idea, which people fail to get. This is terrible usage of language. As you said, there are things other than just technical usage that makes things good or bad. Tolkien is excellent at creating language, as far as I know, and he may be good with understanding where words come from and having an extensive vocabulary. He may even punctuate and is syntactically awesome, but his overall writing isn't good.

And no, I'm not discounting things about TDK and TDKR, I'm saying that they are only mediocre when taken with respect to Comics/graphic novels in the same class. And they're made even worse when taken with all of Miller Canon Batman which is Year One, All Star Batman & Robin: The Boy Wonder, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight Returns... When you take that all together, as a complete story, as you should, is terrible.

#42 Edited by etragedy (1082 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: I never mentioned my degree to bolster any argument from authority. I mentioned it to say that you were not saying anything I haven't heard before. Frankly I am tired of your dismissive tone, and your personal attacks. You are the one acting like a know-it-all here. I am done.

#43 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@etragedy: I'm not dismissing anything because you haven't made an argument. To dismiss first there must be something to dismiss. I also have not made any personal attacks. Saying you are wrong and explaining where and why you are wrong are not personal attacks. They are facts and arguments.

As far as you having heard it before and supposedly agreeing with it partially then perhaps you shouldn't hold to and accuse others of being subjectivity when they state they aren't being subjective and are explaining what factually makes it bad. Btw... what I'm describing you doing is being dismissive... and the know-it-all remark is a personal attack. But more importantly if you've heard it all before and you disagree you should have a stronger argument and should be able to say more than "You are wrong" and "here are qualities that this thing doesn't have but I'm going to say it does" which i quickly crush. You could present why you think there are those features. Instead you go "I'm not talking to you" and "I have a masters degree!" from a prestigious university where apparently you were told that I am right and yet you are saying I am wrong without presenting an argument to back that up. Of course you could just dismiss me because I'm not quoting Tolkien and you could say that, but you know that you'd be dishonest if you did, because anyone that has picked that book up knows how doggedly detailed and slow it is.

The fact is that for someone that isn't concerned with trying to lay their authority out you sure do make it clear that whatever i could say most certainly to you I'd have to be inferior what with having a Masters degree from one of the top art schools in the world... when a "I have studied this stuff" would have sufficed since, you know, even the most incompetent of artists tend to learn of at least one way to make their art better objectively. Heck, to people who are interested in art and think about it it's beneath Highschool art classes but just to be fair it's in any college 101 class on the subject. So for you to specify that much indicate coming from authority, not intelligence, argumentation, fact, skill, or respect, and one could say it's an attempt to belittle me...even though you agree with me. Amazing how you agree, but are so far off from actual application ^.^

Anyways you don't want to continue this, nor do i, and I apologize to the OP for getting soooo off topic. I think i need to employ some ninjas to stab my hands whenever I start getting off topic :P

#44 Posted by etragedy (1082 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@etragedy: I'm not dismissing anything because you haven't made an argument.

Since you continue to misrepresent me I'll respond one last time. I have made an argument. I cited reading lists, awards, and many other reasons why those particular works are in fact worthwhile. You are the one that presented no demonstrable measure of why they are not except for your own opinion that they 'aren't good stories'. Initially I gave my opinion. You gave your opinion. I countered by clearly citing (in this case Wikipedia's entry), you replied without giving a single quantitative measure of how either work was lacking. And in fact were originally arguing that some works were created in the modern age that weren't. It's clear you are arguing without facts. You crossed the line when you attacked my educational background. Go away.

#45 Edited by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@etragedy said:

I have made an argument. I cited reading lists, awards,

This is not an argument... This is a fallacy, argument from authority.

An argument would be "This is why it's good. Reason 1. Reason 2. etc"

An argument from authority would be "This list says it is good so it is!"

Since I don't know what your argument is other than there is something good about those books that some lists and people seem to recognize even though you haven't said what it is and generally people list their strongest argument first... well that means you place your lists, an authority, above whatever argument that you imagine you've made.

If you weren't being so defensive maybe you would realize that the proper response, whether trying to be polite or trying to rub someone's face in how stupid they were, would be to quote your own argument because either they haven't seen it or they are dismissing it. Instead, you continue to insist you've made an argument and list among them listing authorities that say I'm wrong which is kinda pointless since I pointed out that people disagree with me. Of course, someone with a masters degree should know how to make an argument and I shouldn't have to point out how much you're not.

Oh and as far as "attacking" your educational background. I can make three points that rip anything you say to shreds that has to do with your knowledge about this subject based on your degree, but I didn't because I'm not making personal attacks, because it's irrelevant unless you persist.

#46 Edited by consolemaster001 (5613 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman year one

#47 Posted by CrazyScarecrow (1360 posts) - - Show Bio

I started reading Batman with "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader ?". It's about the death of Batman and it is told in different, odd ways by the supporting cast and villains such Catwoman, Alfred, Robin, Joker, and Superman to name a few. It's kinda confusing for a newbie as it does have appearances by many characters not widely known and the art and scenes do mimick those of the comics of those who have worked on Batman throughout the years. Despite it being confusing for a newbie, I totally recommend it for a newbie because of the curiousity that I had on Batman when I read this got me to go and buy nothing but back issues and archive collections the villains and Batman tales that looked interesting. It really makes you appreciate Batman and his co-stars even more than the Modern Age or New 52.

I also recommend buying the Batman comics that were tied in with Batman: The Animated Series. They very rarely have long storylines and they usually show more about the villains so I definitely recommend if you want to get to know the villains.

Also if you want to know more about recent histories of Batman if that is what you are worried about than I just say buy the books aswell or read the comic histories of the characters on Wikipedia or Comic Vine.

Hopes this helps you! -CrazyScarecrow

#48 Posted by abdikko16 (1 posts) - - Show Bio

If you want to start with his origins you can try:

-Batman the man who falls

-Year one

Or if you want to start with the New 52 read the Batman zero issues