#1 Edited by Wolfrazer (7179 posts) - - Show Bio

Now I like Batman, and hope someone can clear this up but....I know that Batman has been trained in pretty much everything barring probably a few things. But something I don't understand is...that he is better at those things then someone who solely dedicated their lives to it? Like for example...

Ninja and a Scientist

These 2 have spent their whole lives doing solely what they have been trained/taught to do, so they haven't focused on anything else but those things. So would Batman still be better then those two, despite that they have trained/learned in one particular field unlike Batman who was taught many things?

I was under the impression that if someone focused on one thing their entire lives, whereas another did multiple things including that one thing, that the former would be better at that one thing then the other guy who was taught the same thing and yet focused on other studies aswell.

Am I wrong? Or are there better people doing certain things they focused their entire lives on, then Batman is despite him knowing the same thing?

#2 Edited by Cr4pSnip3r (302 posts) - - Show Bio

There would have to be, if they want to continue the idea that he's not superhuman. I would figure he'd be better than some/a lot of scientists, purely because.. yes.. he's Batman, but if said Scientist was quite excellent, or had a field Batman just wasn't that trained in, they could easily be better, I figure. As for the ninja... probably not, Batman is just amazing at fighting and stealth. It's his thing.

#3 Posted by Jayc1324 (12814 posts) - - Show Bio

You are right but in the comic world he is the best. Someone could possibly beat him in science but not much else. In real life batman would be great at a lot of things but not the best at everything. But in comics he is that fastest, smartest, strongest etc. human. So you are right but this is comics

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#4 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

It's actually quite a mistake on how Batman was trained...

Bruce learned all the basic core fighting arts as he was growing up, largely taught to him by Alfred. Alfred also taught him the art of disguise and theatre as well as throwing your voice and changing your voice and field medicine. Alfred was a Special Forces Intelligence agent and a stage actor before coming to work for the Waynes. Bruce took many private lessons at home, Alfred keeping him on the path, maximizing his education and training along with the help of Leslie Thompson. Assuming Bruce was brilliant to start off with most of the stuff he needed to learn he would have been one of the few people to actually be able to access to it all before the internet and it's actually quite easy to learn a lot of stuff if done right because they all re-enforce each other and build up. This allows him to have beyond a college level understanding of most things at very young due to access, level of knowledge, and breadth of knowledge.

That pretty much handles all the basic and would have put him on the Masters/PhD level for most subjects and if not a lot of the breadth of knowledge would cover for it. Once he hit 18-ish he started taking college courses from all the top schools, enrolling under various pseudonyms, but never doing too well. This indicates he didn't put much effort into the actual work, but listened and learned and given he was able to create these pseudonyms he could easily forge credits from other colleges letting him get into advanced classes where need be.

After or during this period he only sought out 7 "masters" that taught him in various areas... martial arts, mysticism, detective work, explosives, etc. He might have also trained with lesser masters a bit but only to learn the completion of the art. Despite what people think a lot of martial arts is just the basics + some other stuff that doesn't take long if you understand the core. Bruce trained the core so he didn't need to keep on relearning from the beginning like a lot of people picture in their heads.

Now... is he the best in any field? A few probably, intellectual fields because he has access to advanced tech and he has a huge breadth of knowledge which allows him to draw connections which allows him to advance faster. As far as martial arts... nope.

Shiva, Black Canary, Cassandra Cain, Cheshire, King Snake, Silver Monkey? I think one of their names were, they're on the top 10 martial artists list and possibly Tim Drake are all better martial artists than him. He's not the best martial artists, because he doesn't care about fair fights, honor, etc. He cares about winning and stopping you from hurting yourself and others. However he can do that the most effective way is the way he'll do it. Tim Drake has had better training and more masters than any of the Bat family and that's why he might be one of the top martial artists, but he's much like Bruce in that he doesn't fight that way. He wins. He doesn't care to be the top martial artist.

#5 Edited by Jayc1324 (12814 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: I understand what you're saying but I still think he's one of the best martial artists. Dc says that he is a master of all forms of combat and he has stalemated shiva and he trained Tim, dick, Jason, Stephanie and Barbara in combat. He also traine with shiva after bane broke his back. He one shotted karate kid and beat Prometheus. Also in his books he is constantly saying how he has a number of ways to take someone down or beat them. That's just the way I would like to think of him, as a master martial artist

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#6 Edited by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: That he had to train with Shiva shows that he wasn't the top. He is a master, but a master simply means martial artist of a certain rank that may take on disciples. Different arts have different levels and even masters in the same school are not equal. Also keep in mind that Bruce has a plan to take down everyone, including himself, and he has back-ups to those plans. Tim is Bruce's plan or back-up plan for himself and one could argue that was apparent from the beginning of his training due to Tim being trained by all of Bruce's masters AND many more.

#7 Posted by Black_Arrow (3426 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@jayc1324: That he had to train with Shiva shows that he wasn't the top. He is a master, but a master simply means martial artist of a certain rank that may take on disciples. Different arts have different levels and even masters in the same school are not equal. Also keep in mind that Bruce has a plan to take down everyone, including himself, and he has back-ups to those plans. Tim is Bruce's plan or back-up plan for himself and one could argue that was apparent from the beginning of his training due to Tim being trained by all of Bruce's masters AND many more.

he trained with shiva because he forgot all his moves because he was in a wheel chair. And he went to train with Shiva because he considers her as his equal.

#8 Edited by Jayc1324 (12814 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: his back was broken of course he was at top shape. Shiva has before said that he is her equal. And type in top ten dc martial artists on google and I bet he's on every list. Just saying. Batman kicks butt

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#9 Posted by dcdyno (130 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@durakken: his back was broken of course he was at top shape. Shiva has before said that he is her equal. And type in top ten dc martial artists on google and I bet he's on every list. Just saying. Batman kicks butt

#10 Posted by Breadspread (774 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the idea that he isn't always the best, but out off sheer determination finds a way to overcome. This makes for way more drama, to actually think Batman might be in danger rather then going into every fight knowing he's the best... and there's no way he'll lose. This becomes boring fast.

#11 Edited by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

Now I like Batman, and hope someone can clear this up but....I know that Batman has been trained in pretty much everything barring probably a few things. But something I don't understand is...that he is better at those things then someone who solely dedicated their lives to it? Like for example...

Ninja and a Scientist

These 2 have spent their whole lives doing solely what they have been trained/taught to do, so they haven't focused on anything else but those things. So would Batman still be better then those two, despite that they have trained/learned in one particular field unlike Batman who was taught many things?

I was under the impression that if someone focused on one thing their entire lives, whereas another did multiple things including that one thing, that the former would be better at that one thing then the other guy who was taught the same thing and yet focused on other studies aswell.

Am I wrong? Or are there better people doing certain things they focused their entire lives on, then Batman is despite him knowing the same thing?

Well, he's probably not even top 5 in science, and probably not top 3 in Martial Arts, if that helps.

#12 Posted by Jayc1324 (12814 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@deaditegonzo: who's 5 better in science? And martial arts?

Science (Not in Order, just in the order they occurred to me):

1) Lex

2) Mr. Terrific

3) Superman

4) Professor Ivo

5) John Henry Irons

6) Brainiac

7) Will Magnus

8) Ray Palmer

I mean, what are you parameters? Cause if I can just go through all the villains, I could probably go on for a little while, and their are also characters who exist just as scientists that do more in the science field than Batman (think Cyborgs dad or Professor Hamilton). Not to mention, how many instances of scientific exceptionalism do they need to count? Just as an example, Darkseid made the Entropy Aegis armour (way beyond any weapon Batman has made) and even destroyed Anti-Monitor's armour with a button press, id say theres an easy argument for him to be Batman's superior, but he does lack instances compared to Batman.

And for Martial Arts, there are a ton of people i'd mention, but I still only excluded him from the top three (not further down the list), because Martial Arts are shown REALLY inconsistently: Lady Shiva, Karate Kid, Deathstroke, Cassandra Cain, Batman One Million, Richard Dragon, etc etc etc. Anyone remember Sonny Sumo who, with his chi, could fight on level with New Gods? Bronze Tiger? Owlman often takes the advantage when Batman and he fight. Prometheus? Frankly, id say Wonder Woman, with her greater amount of training and experience should also be superior, but I leave that one out, because most people disagree and to be fair, the writers dont often reflect her prowess.

#14 Edited by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

v.v science isn't a field... sometimes I wonder why I even bother...

edit: 1000 posts woot!

#15 Edited by Jayc1324 (12814 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: no way superman is smarter, and batman is a genius and inventor just like those guys. He built a suit that hides him from superman and the entire electro magnetic spectrum and the bat computer which is the most powerful in the world. I only think lex beats him but you don't have to agree. And I mean the one with the most feats, inventions, and stuff like that. And batman has done better than most of those people in that regard

As for martial arts he stalated shiva and beat her once with a distraction. Deathstroke said that he would've lost his fight with batman without his enhancements in his solo series. He one shotted karate kid and beat Prometheus. He knows every form known, and trained with the best. I wonder why people try to deny his skills. Being skilled in everything is batmans whole deal, just like superman being strong

I mean, why argue his abilities? Spiderman can shoot webs, flash runs fast, batman is one of the top martial artists. Shouldn't be any questions about that, it's been established

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#16 Posted by conradoaccorsi (301 posts) - - Show Bio

I really think that in EARTH there are only 2 guys more smarter then Batman (because if we include the entire universe there is Brainiac,Darkseid,etc) which are:

1- Mr. Terrific

2- Prof. Ivo

3- Batman/Lex

And guys Superman is not SUPER Smart,he has a brain procession more faster then ours

#17 Posted by QueenCorp15 (1035 posts) - - Show Bio

There are ppl who are better than him at things but since he has multiple things hez great at he uses those to his advantage an that gives him the upper hand over someone whoz been training their whole life in that one skill, an thats what makes batman so amazing that he has multiple things hez great at an knows how to beat any type of obstacle that comes at him

#18 Posted by ImagineMan16 (466 posts) - - Show Bio

I kind of wish they would largely remove the "master scientist" aspect of Batman and let him rely on Lucius for that. He can still have an advanced knowledge of chemistry and things like that, but I don't really like it when Batman is a scientific genius. I prefer the martial arts/stealth/detective Batman over scientist Batman any day.

#19 Posted by Squalleon (4640 posts) - - Show Bio

.Batman has just the necessary comic pages to display his intellect. Luthor,Terrific,Palmer they lack their own titles, or comic appearance and as a result haven't display as many feats as batman.Luthor is the smartest human on the planet and everyone has admit that.Mr. Terrific the third. I think T.O Morrow is the second because he created the first artificial soul.Toyman(Hiro) has shown to be clever enough to compare to Luthor.

Also all four of them are better scientists than Batman.

@jayc1324: Because i don't want to hijack the thread and start a Batman vs Superman argument. I will PM you some Superman feats of intelligence.And if you want to discuss this you can answer there.

#20 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33942 posts) - - Show Bio

It's about time they renamed him Mary-Sue Man

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#21 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonny_anonymous said:

It's about time they renamed him Mary-Sue Man

Except for the fact he's a superb character and infinitely more complex than virtually every other comic creation (from Marvel/DC), then yeah. (Rolls eyes)

#22 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33942 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonny_anonymous: I guess you're right, not like Batman has provided most of the best superhero stories of all time.

#24 Edited by Black_Arrow (3426 posts) - - Show Bio

In Intellect he is top 3, in Hard science he is in top ten.

#25 Edited by kasino (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

Bo Jackson, Jim Thrope, Prime Time, Babe Didrikson etc.

Bats could easily be a top Ninja and scientist as his physical and mental makeup is built for such

as for athletes that are smart..Bill Bradley, Steve Young, Jack Kemp, Matt Birk and every other offensive lineman that played.

#26 Posted by TDK_1997 (14988 posts) - - Show Bio

He's not better than a scienties but from a ninja he is.

#27 Posted by Breadspread (774 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't there a lot of stories that involve Batman going to a scientist that specializes in a particular field for advice?

The fact that Batman has a working knowledge of many different feilds is impressive enough, but I thought he went to specialists for advice in some circumstances.

I think the Bat-computer is huge resource. It could have an endless library of knowledge, models, and simulations.

I don't necessarily think Batman has all the knowledge so much as I think he has the resources to acquire the knowledge quickly.

#28 Posted by RustyRoy (13280 posts) - - Show Bio

He's in the Top 10 of pretty much everything, if he concentrated in only one or two fields then he might have been the best.

#29 Edited by kasino (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

@breadspread: yes completely correct

he does have a vast amount o knowledge but goes to a specialist when necessary

#30 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13417 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

It's actually quite a mistake on how Batman was trained...

Bruce learned all the basic core fighting arts as he was growing up, largely taught to him by Alfred. Alfred also taught him the art of disguise and theatre as well as throwing your voice and changing your voice and field medicine. Alfred was a Special Forces Intelligence agent and a stage actor before coming to work for the Waynes. Bruce took many private lessons at home, Alfred keeping him on the path, maximizing his education and training along with the help of Leslie Thompson. Assuming Bruce was brilliant to start off with most of the stuff he needed to learn he would have been one of the few people to actually be able to access to it all before the internet and it's actually quite easy to learn a lot of stuff if done right because they all re-enforce each other and build up. This allows him to have beyond a college level understanding of most things at very young due to access, level of knowledge, and breadth of knowledge.

That pretty much handles all the basic and would have put him on the Masters/PhD level for most subjects and if not a lot of the breadth of knowledge would cover for it. Once he hit 18-ish he started taking college courses from all the top schools, enrolling under various pseudonyms, but never doing too well. This indicates he didn't put much effort into the actual work, but listened and learned and given he was able to create these pseudonyms he could easily forge credits from other colleges letting him get into advanced classes where need be.

After or during this period he only sought out 7 "masters" that taught him in various areas... martial arts, mysticism, detective work, explosives, etc. He might have also trained with lesser masters a bit but only to learn the completion of the art. Despite what people think a lot of martial arts is just the basics + some other stuff that doesn't take long if you understand the core. Bruce trained the core so he didn't need to keep on relearning from the beginning like a lot of people picture in their heads.

Now... is he the best in any field? A few probably, intellectual fields because he has access to advanced tech and he has a huge breadth of knowledge which allows him to draw connections which allows him to advance faster. As far as martial arts... nope.

Shiva, Black Canary, Cassandra Cain, Cheshire, King Snake, Silver Monkey? I think one of their names were, they're on the top 10 martial artists list and possibly Tim Drake are all better martial artists than him. He's not the best martial artists, because he doesn't care about fair fights, honor, etc. He cares about winning and stopping you from hurting yourself and others. However he can do that the most effective way is the way he'll do it. Tim Drake has had better training and more masters than any of the Bat family and that's why he might be one of the top martial artists, but he's much like Bruce in that he doesn't fight that way. He wins. He doesn't care to be the top martial artist.

tim drake isnt. you forgot Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger

#31 Edited by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: Superman himself has claimed to be capable of upgrading Batman's gadgets, but never offered as he didnt want to offend Batman. Superman is the guy who was looking to cure cancer, where is Batman's comparable feat? Batman is nowhere near the best at "science", if he is a genius at all, its as a tactician, IMO.

Him stalemating Shiva is directly contradicted several times, even in Nightwing's annual in the New 52. Him being able to beat 'Stroke without his enhancements is directly contradicted on page as well. Him being better than Karate Kid is just stupid and couldnt be called anything other than PIS. Once again, Sonny Sumo was able to use his Chi to stand with New Gods.

I know youll never agree with me, so im not trying to convince you, im just showing the evidence for my belief. I thought I was being extremely generous saying Batman is just outside the top 3 Martial Artists (mainly because as you showed, the portrayal of martial arts skill is SUPER INCONSISTENT in comics) and outside the top 5 in science. I agree to disagree with you.

#32 Posted by Lvenger (20757 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: Tim Drake? I'm sorry but Tim is nowhere near Bruce in terms of martial arts skill. Intellectually, he's slated to surpass Bruce but in terms of combat skill, he doesn't have the feats to put him above Bruce. Though most of the people you've listed are to 10 material, I would take Drake out of the top 10, maybe even 20 and replace him with either Richard Dragon, Slade or Bronze Tiger.

#33 Edited by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I mentioned people that are specifically listed as on the list of top 10, according to Shiva.

Tim Drake has probably reached a higher level of mastery than Bruce, but as I mentioned, that's not what Batman is about in the first place. This is nebulous but even though Tim isn't as naturally talented physically martial arts is not all physical and Tim has more training with more masters which likely makes him high up there in the top martial artists, perhaps over Batman. IN terms of Fighting and winning. Bruce is #1. Tim is high up there, but he's not first place. There is a distinction. Shiva makes the distinction in a few books, I think it's when there is a mass Martial Arts battle.

#34 Posted by Lvenger (20757 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: I'd like some feats or issue references for confirmation on this. I know Bruce sent Tim to train with Shiva but I really don't see how things like that get Tim an advantage over Batman when he's been taken down by Jason who Bruce wrecked easily when he decided to fight seriously.

#35 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: fighting and martial arts is not the same as i've said twice before now. Also Tim being beat by Jason was poorly written.

#36 Posted by Lvenger (20757 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: Fine but that doesn't answer my question. Who has Tim been trained by that puts him above Bruce?

#37 Posted by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@durakken: Fine but that doesn't answer my question. Who has Tim been trained by that puts him above Bruce?

Normally, id argue Tim was the was worst fighter out of the 3 main Robins, so id be interested to see some evidence putting him above Jason, or so high in general.

#38 Posted by tec79 (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Intellectually Batman has an incredible breadth of knowledge covering a number of disciplines allowing him to get up to speed very quickly, either through further study or seeking advice and information from experts. Bats ability to prepare contingencies could possibly be rivaled by his ability to think on his feet. His fighting prowess is legendary pre and post Flashpoint outside of characters with exceptional power levels I doubt there are many who would stand a chance in a direct conflict or would want one to begin with, even those with superior skill have reservations.

#39 Posted by THEOCITYLEGEND (1236 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: @jayc1324: People always claim Shiva is superior to Bruce but I honestly have not seen anything that shows she is.

#40 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Tim has been trained by everyone that Bruce has been trained by + masters that he hasn't been trained by and doesn't know. So if you are taking it based on "Training" Tim is superior

#41 Posted by Jayc1324 (12814 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/p/intellectresources.html?m=1

Check that site out. If that doesn't convince you he is smarter than superman than we will have to agree to disagree.

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#42 Posted by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@deaditegonzo: http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/p/intellectresources.html?m=1

Check that site out. If that doesn't convince you he is smarter than superman than we will have to agree to disagree.

Yep, we're going to have to disagree. If I had an incurable disease, id go to Superman, if I wanted a weapon lightyears ahead of any equipment the world has, id go to Superman, if I wanted a magical machine that could grant literally any wish, Id go to Superman, and so on. Superman is smarter as a scientist than Batman. Its fine for us to agree to disagree, this is one of those topics nobody agrees upon.

#43 Posted by Lvenger (20757 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: You sure about that? Fine but in practice, Bruce is a vastly superior fighter to Tim, that much is clear.

#44 Posted by kasino (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

why no one has a problem that Cyborg doesn't have a penis, literally main reason why I never was a fan

#45 Posted by sinestro_GL (3251 posts) - - Show Bio

Who's to say that he focused on science and did martial arts in his spare time?

#46 Posted by havoc1201 (518 posts) - - Show Bio

one thing the op is missing is he wasnt just trained all manners of martial arts and science he is a expert in all these manners which is very different then just being trained, anyone can be trained in many forms of combat but that does not mean they are experts, Batman has mastered all skills.

#47 Edited by MuyJingo (1793 posts) - - Show Bio

He is only the worlds greatest detective, and one of the worlds greatest martial artists.

In most other fields, he is simply extremely capable, to varying degrees.

He has sought out expert advice before, so of course there are people better than him at specific things.

@jayc1324 said:

@deaditegonzo: http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/p/intellectresources.html?m=1

Check that site out. If that doesn't convince you he is smarter than superman than we will have to agree to disagree.

Yep, we're going to have to disagree. If I had an incurable disease, id go to Superman, if I wanted a weapon lightyears ahead of any equipment the world has, id go to Superman, if I wanted a magical machine that could grant literally any wish, Id go to Superman, and so on. Superman is smarter as a scientist than Batman. Its fine for us to agree to disagree, this is one of those topics nobody agrees upon.

It's because the comics don't really mirror that reality. Superman is smarter on paper, but is also written as essentially average, or slightly above average intelligence.

Batman tends to figure things out that Superman can't, when on paper, that shouldn't be the case. Yet, it is.