Is No-Man's Land canon?

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the_red_viper

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#1 the_red_viper  Moderator

I'm pretty sure it isn't but someone told me that it is, just wanna make sure. Thanks :)

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Durakken

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#2  Edited By Durakken

It's not.

This all we really know about the DCnU Timeline...

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dmreyn

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PreNew52, yes, but in New52 most likely not as Batman has only been fighting for about 5 years and the whole Cataclysm/RoattoNML/NML/postNML reconstruction would have taken up a good amount of time (I'm not sure if you could really condense it too much to fit into the new timeline).

That being said, I'm currently reading it and I think it's great. Don't NOT read something because it's not in the New52 (at least if you want to read some good Bat' stories. The way I think of continuity/canon at this point: preNew52 DID happen, it's just that time/space/etc was altered by Flashpoint, leading to a new universe where certain elements were dropped from characters lives. Basically: preN52 happened, but only bits and pieces were remembered and/or carried over to the new "alternate universe/timeline".

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Veshark

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The less thought about the New 52 timeline, the better.

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the_red_viper

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#5 the_red_viper  Moderator

@dmreyn said:

PreNew52, yes, but in New52 most likely not as Batman has only been fighting for about 5 years and the whole Cataclysm/RoattoNML/NML/postNML reconstruction would have taken up a good amount of time (I'm not sure if you could really condense it too much to fit into the new timeline).

That being said, I'm currently reading it and I think it's great. Don't NOT read something because it's not in the New52 (at least if you want to read some good Bat' stories. The way I think of continuity/canon at this point: preNew52 DID happen, it's just that time/space/etc was altered by Flashpoint, leading to a new universe where certain elements were dropped from characters lives. Basically: preN52 happened, but only bits and pieces were remembered and/or carried over to the new "alternate universe/timeline".

It's not that I don't wanna read it (I really do actually). Just wanted to know if it's canon or not. Thanks guys!

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reignmaker

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I made the decision a long time ago, and I've felt better about it ever since: canon doesn't matter.

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RustyRoy

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@veshark said:

The less thought about the New 52 timeline, the better.

I made the decision a long time ago, and I've felt better about it ever since: canon doesn't matter.

That's how I like to think too.

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Breadspread

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@rustyroy: @reignmaker: agreed. I'm only interested if one arc ties in with another, for example "Sword of Azrael" and "Knightfall".

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Durakken

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@breadspread:

No Man's Land events that I can remember of the top of my head that have effects down the line...

Tim and Barabara's first physical meeting

Introduction of Cassandra Cain which sets up her becoming Batgirl

Huntress gets character development which sets up Birds of Prey

Sarah Essen killed sets up Officer Down

Harley is put in jail which sets up events in Catwoman

Spoiler and Huntress/Catwoman meet up which results in later events that aren't that important

Leslie Thompkins' clinic is set up which sets up events in War Games

Killer Croc has story development which continues in other arcs

Batman has character development into a "needing others" philosophy which is later subverted in several other arcs and mistrust between Batman and Gordon isn't revolved for quite a while.

I believe NML is one of Azrael's last arcs as a major character

Cataclysm (the story before NML which leads to it) and NML has resonating effects through out all Gotham based titles where they are referred back to constantly, but nothing too overtly. Basically there is thing that people are called who stayed and those who left and returned and new people to the city... And the quake is referred to as late as Batgirl issues right before the new52 relaunch...

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Breadspread

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@durakken: That is a great example, but you can still enjoy each story arc on it's own. I agree there is more enjoyment when you can see how each arc affects the next, but If I want to read the Cassandra Cain Batgirl series before NML... I'll still find enjoyment. If I read NML later I would want to know that it tied in with something I already read, to make those connections, but most of the evidence for that is the story and hard to miss. I would not stress over not having read NML before hand.

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Durakken

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@breadspread: lol I thought you were the OP asking for how it ties in ^.^ Yes each arc can be enjoyed on it's own merits usually, but I prefer canon and working from the earliest point and reading it all the way to present. I think this is a much superior way to read western comics, but not everyone has as much time as I do nor the patience to read thousands of issues, a lot of which are badly written.

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Breadspread

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@durakken: I agree, I do prefer to read everything in order. When I don't, I'll often go back and reread certain stories in the right order, and sometimes I pick up on details I missed.

When cannon works it's awesome (x-men titles are really good at it IMO) but at it's worst it can bog up the works and get in the way of good story telling. (Kind of what's happening with Batman now.)

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Durakken

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#13  Edited By Durakken

@breadspread: But the canon isn't bogging down Batman. The writers, producers, publishers are bogging down the stories with their ineptness. The background on Batman doesn't hold you back from doing anything unless your purpose is to retread the same content, because all that content and all those characters add more to what can be done and the way comics work is pretty much to return everything to status quo upon finish of the arc, or most everything. Most times, when there is a change it is 1 change it is pretty apparent unless it's a mega arc which is comprised of many miniarcs like Knight Saga and NML which were year long if not more events that spanned many arcs across many books.

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Breadspread

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#14  Edited By Breadspread

@durakken: I guess my biggest mistake was blaming the canon. You are right to put the blame on the writers and publishers. My point is that when the canon becomes cofused and hard to follow it can get in the way of story telling opportunities, namely the conections between story arcs we discussed earlier.

I know you're familiar with this thread because you have posted in it: http://www.comicvine.com/batman/4005-1699/forums/batman-continuity-question-1472007/#20

It has a lot of good examples of how the canon has become confused.

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Durakken

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@breadspread: That thread, the confusion comes from New52 and the publishers and writers who decided not keep to what they said and having no clue what they are talking about.

DC stated that the new52's history was unaltered for the most part and unless otherwise stated the canon of past arcs are what happened....however within a few months it was clear that this was not the case and it was the other way around. Nothing is canon save for that which is specifically stated. Some people can't get over this and move on to the correct way of thinking which when someone asks "is this canon" you have people that say yes where they should be saying no... because they are still caught in the belief that unless denied it is canon.

Then you have the problem that came up in that thread which is that some of the writers simply are dumb and saying blatantly inaccurate things. Year One and Year Zero cannot possible co-exist because they take place during the same period of time and what takes place is shown to be different. While there are definitely beats that are the same but these beats are from a long history of Batman comics and do not originate from Year One to begin with and Year Zero's telling how we get to those beats are different which resonates differently in several ways.

As far as getting in the way of story telling opportunities. No... it doesn't. It doesn't stand in the way of people creating new characters, new places, new stories, new whatever. It simply provides a pool of greater resources to do it in. What it prevents is writers from rehashing old stuff and prevents writers from using the crap excuse of "this a different timeline" when not being able to write the characters right. Canon forces them to be creative if they want to change a character so much that it's unrecognizable, where as doing away with it allows them to be lazy and produce rehashed nonsense or books of our favorite "characters" that have been so alter they aren't those characters any more.

Also, one of the longest running TV series which the most complex canon ever, Doctor Who, solved this type of problem ages ago. There is canon, but it serves the story. If the story contradicts canon, but the story is really good, the to heck with canon. The story take precedence, but that also means the story has to be accurate to the characters...and since DCnU writers seem not to be able to do that for the most part they'd never be able to do this type of canon.

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#16  Edited By Breadspread

@durakken: I agree with most of what you have to say, but when I say a confused canon can get in the way of storytelling opportunities, I do not mean ALL storytelling opportunities. Writers and creative teams can still create new characters, places and things.... If canon is confused, it means readers are unsure as to how one story ties in with the other (which you point out is due publishers and writers who have no idea what they are talking about) this creates opportunities missed: The opportunities to tie stories together to a make a cohesive continuity.

I agree very much with the Doctor Who approach.

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DarthAznable

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I was gonna ask this.

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deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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Not in new 52, but Scott Snyder said that he likes to believe no mans land (and he listed a few other stories as well) happened in some shape or form or at least symbolically occurred to batman in the new 52, and that he likes to draw things from those stories without mentioning them directly. So its not really in canon, but it's not completely forgotten or useless. No mans land is one of my favorite storylines.

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DarthAznable

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@jayc1324: I was mainly referring to pre 52. I wasn't sure if it was it's own story or what.

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@darthaznable: it is 100% canon pre new 52. The first appearance of Cassandra Cain was in there and the events of the story were mentioned later on down the road.

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#21  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

@jayc1324 said:

@darthaznable: it is 100% canon pre new 52. The first appearance of Cassandra Cain was in there and the events of the story were mentioned later on down the road.

Yup, and he have to thank Didio and the rest of his gang, for erasing that great story, and many others from continuity...

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Bat_Girl_CC

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@jayc1324 said:

@bat_girl_cc: but didn't Cass return in futures end?

Yes, she did returned on Batgirl: Futures End #1 - Darker in the Soul but that story happens 5 years in the future, and i have veerrryy big doubts, about her back-story, i would bet 1.000.000 dollars, in how it's not the same...though, we'll have to wait and see.

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TakeLuutzen

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Zero Year is kinda like No Man's Land, right?

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deathstroke52

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#26  Edited By deathstroke52

Pre New 52 pretty sure

Post New 52 don't count on it :(