Greatest PIS moments?

Okay if you call what happened between Jason and Bruce, Jason beating Bruce Senseless....then you need to go back and look at the "fight" Bruce let Jason punch him, and Jason didnt even knock him off his feet. And yes Jason beat Bruce in that one fight. Bruce is vastly superior to Jason in terms of martial arts, equipment, resources, and so forth. Jason vs Bruce = Bruce 8/10. I will even grant you 7/10 just for the heck of it.

Suggest I not bring what up?

Also Bruce said "she may be" the greatest fighter in Batman #509. Not SHE IS. He is also able to hurt her during the training. I would also suggests you read the dialogue in Batman #427. Bruce calls her his equal, but suggests that he can defeat her because he is physically stronger. Also in Legends of the Dark Knight #62 Bruce is able to fool Shiva into believing that he used her signature move, when he actually used a modified form of that move. That suggest that Bruce is able to one up Shiva's own ability to spot strikes and moves.

And yeah that is not a "stomping". Bruce got hit with a poisoned shuriken. Then we she her kick him. And we see nothing else. We have no idea how the full fight went down. We saw the initial attack, one kick which presumably was the fight ender. We didn't see anything else. Again we are talking about who is better in hand to hand. Shiva won that because Bruce was clearly poisoned with a very potent substance. Pure hand to hand:

Now before you argue that Shiva's skills were reduced, I will point you to comments I have made before about Nightshade's powers which Grodd was able to make full use of, in fact maybe use to better extent than Nightshade herself did. Bruce's comments during the above fight with Shiva indicate that he does not know who is truly superior. Also the dialogue suggests that the mind control is not effecting her skills. This along with the comments from Batman #427, and comments made on other occasions suggest they are essentially equals. But I have consistently granted you that Shiva is superior. But I also would say that the evidence suggests otherwise.

@thejman251: @stronger: Let's ends this now, the mods are watching.

@thejman251 said:

@stronger said:

Deathstroke,Bronze Tiger,Prometheus etc.

@thejman251 said:

@sandiego008 said:

I'm curious, minus bane who else has bested or at least drawed batman in random encounters when batman was unaware of the oppositions abilities?

- Deathstroke, Shiva, Jason, and the list goes on.

The only one corrected is Deathstroke.

Jason beat a holding back Batman with prep,and the best Shiva has done is stalemating him.

- " A holding back Batman" is your opinion.

- Additionally, you are ignorant of the details surrounding the New 52 encounter as they have not been revealed yet. Get over it.

- Shiva has handed Bruce his ass, and is superior to Bruce. Try again, or get over it.

If you want us to continue this peacefully,there are not going to be any insults included.From both sides.Alright?

1.The new 52 fight was not h2h.Shiva used weapons.This is not subjective or debatable.It was a poisoned shuriken,thus it doesn't count as h2h.

Although,I agree Shiva owned both Bruce and Dick in that random encounter.

2.That Jason fight is completely irrelevant.Nobody can prove it's a random encounter or not.Anyway,Bruce always holds back against any of his sidekicks.I have posted more than enough examples.

- That's nice however, i don't care if Bruce "let" jason do anything. He was wobbling at the end of that fight regardless.

- The funny thing is that you claimed that Bruce "defeated" Jason.

- You mean that it's not a "stomping" in your opinion. It definitely suffices for me.

- You're basically bringing opinions to me and speculation which i care nothing about.

- You didn't ask for "hand to hand", you simply wanted to see Shiva defeating Bruce and i happily obliged.

- Do i look like i care about Nightshade? Is Nightshade Shiva? No. Was Nightshade Mongul or Grundy? No. Hence, i don't really care.

- You're attempting to tell me that because you think that Grodd uses Nightshade's abilities well, that he was using shiva's well.

- I'm sorry however, you don't dispatch a "near equal" as you believe they are, in a page whilst saying "its over" like Shiva's some child. This book is utter fatuous and inane drivel. Oh, then there's the fact that Bruce beats Grundy. Hilarious.

Also the dialogue suggests that the mind control is not effecting her skills.

- Really? You must not think that i have that issue at hand.

- And his comments are contradicted in Batman 509. He doesn't suggest that they are near equals in that issue and he hasn't been able to defeat Shiva in "hand to hand" at all. However, if such comments on said other occasions exist, feel free to post scans. The only instance outside of Loeb's drivel is in Batman 427 when he indeed suggests that shiva may be his equal in the martial arts.

@stronger said:

@thejman251 said:

@stronger said:

Deathstroke,Bronze Tiger,Prometheus etc.

@thejman251 said:

@sandiego008 said:

I'm curious, minus bane who else has bested or at least drawed batman in random encounters when batman was unaware of the oppositions abilities?

- Deathstroke, Shiva, Jason, and the list goes on.

The only one corrected is Deathstroke.

Jason beat a holding back Batman with prep,and the best Shiva has done is stalemating him.

- " A holding back Batman" is your opinion.

- Additionally, you are ignorant of the details surrounding the New 52 encounter as they have not been revealed yet. Get over it.

- Shiva has handed Bruce his ass, and is superior to Bruce. Try again, or get over it.

If you want us to continue this peacefully,there are not going to be any insults included.From both sides.Alright?

1.The new 52 fight was not h2h.Shiva used weapons.This is not subjective or debatable.It was a poisoned shuriken,thus it doesn't count as h2h.

Although,I agree Shiva owned both Bruce and Dick in that random encounter.

2.That Jason fight is completely irrelevant.Nobody can prove it's a random encounter or not.Anyway,Bruce always holds back against any of his sidekicks.I have posted more than enough examples.

- I never claimed that any of these was hand to hand.

- I never claimed that it was a random encounter.

@thejman251 said:

- That's nice however, i don't care if Bruce "let" jason do anything. He was wobbling at the end of that fight regardless.

- The funny thing is that you claimed that Bruce "defeated" Jason.

- You mean that it's not a "stomping" in your opinion. It definitely suffices for me.

- You're basically bringing opinions to me and speculation which i care nothing about.

- You didn't ask for "hand to hand", you simply wanted to see Shiva defeating Bruce and i happily obliged.

- Do i look like i care about Nightshade? Is Nightshade Shiva? No. Was Nightshade Mongul or Grundy? No. Hence, i don't really care.

- You're attempting to tell me that because you think that Grodd uses Nightshade's abilities well, that he was using shiva's well.

- I'm sorry however, you don't dispatch a "near equal" as you believe they are, in a page whilst saying "its over" like Shiva's some child. This book is utter fatuous and inane drivel. Oh, then there's the fact that Bruce beats Grundy. Hilarious.

Also the dialogue suggests that the mind control is not effecting her skills.

- Really? You must not think that i have that issue at hand.

- And his comments are contradicted in Batman 509. He doesn't suggest that they are near equals in that issue and he hasn't been able to defeat Shiva in "hand to hand" at all. However, if such comments on said other occasions exist, feel free to post scans. The only instance outside of Loeb's drivel is in Batman 427 when he indeed suggests that shiva may be his equal in the martial arts.

When I said that Bruce lost in that one fight to Jason I want to clarify that I was speaking about the scans you posted, not the most recent "fight". You say Bruce was wobbling after the recent "fight", please show the Scan that makes that clear. He took all of Jason's punches and was standing like on his two feet ready to take more. And we know Jason was not holding back because he was pissed. The "fight" clearly showed that Bruce was letting Jason hit him.

Also feel free to quote me where I said "Bruce beat Jason." I said Bruce could beat Jason especially feat for feat.

And yes I was talking in hand to hand because it was suggested that Shiva is vastly superior in hand to hand. Yet the scans show otherwise. Plus if Shiva was so vastly superior at hand to hand, why did she have to poison Bruce first.

Two scans one from Batman #427 and Superman/Batman #3 have Bruce stating they are equals. Another scan Bruce suggest Shiva may be the best. So far not a single scan that reads "Shiva is far superior to me."

Your scan from S/B #3 does not say that her skills were effected. And again Bruce suggest that in Shiva's case it didnt matter. But just for the sake of argument I will concede to you that Shiva's skills were effected. Bruce's ponderings about who is the superior between the two of them still stand and must be weighed along side the other claims regarding Shiva's skills. So you still have two comments about them being equals and a third which claims that she may be the greatest.

You keep saying I am bringing in opinion, but I am simply stating what the scans either state or clearly imply. You are the one using words like drivel or suffices for me.

Now I do admit I am speculating on several points, but there is nothing wrong with speculation as it promotes critical thinking.

@thejman251 said:

@stronger said:

@thejman251 said:

@stronger said:

Deathstroke,Bronze Tiger,Prometheus etc.

@thejman251 said:

@sandiego008 said:

I'm curious, minus bane who else has bested or at least drawed batman in random encounters when batman was unaware of the oppositions abilities?

- Deathstroke, Shiva, Jason, and the list goes on.

The only one corrected is Deathstroke.

Jason beat a holding back Batman with prep,and the best Shiva has done is stalemating him.

- " A holding back Batman" is your opinion.

- Additionally, you are ignorant of the details surrounding the New 52 encounter as they have not been revealed yet. Get over it.

- Shiva has handed Bruce his ass, and is superior to Bruce. Try again, or get over it.

If you want us to continue this peacefully,there are not going to be any insults included.From both sides.Alright?

1.The new 52 fight was not h2h.Shiva used weapons.This is not subjective or debatable.It was a poisoned shuriken,thus it doesn't count as h2h.

Although,I agree Shiva owned both Bruce and Dick in that random encounter.

2.That Jason fight is completely irrelevant.Nobody can prove it's a random encounter or not.Anyway,Bruce always holds back against any of his sidekicks.I have posted more than enough examples.

- I never claimed that any of these was hand to hand.

- I never claimed that it was a random encounter.

1.In another thread you reffered to the first fight as h2h,and that I was subjective about it.

2.Same as the above.

- Here you go.

- And do you actually think Jason wasn't holding back? He was trained by the All caste, an ancient group of assassins. If he was trying to kill Bruce, that fight would have gone much differently and he most certainly could have used the techniques that he learned. It's quite clear that Jason was just hurt and not trying to kill his father. Don't attempt to flatter yourself or Bruce.

And yes I was talking in hand to hand because it was suggested that Shiva is vastly superior in hand to hand. Yet the scans show otherwise. Plus if Shiva was so vastly superior at hand to hand, why did she have to poison Bruce first.

- There aren't any scans that show otherwise, sorry they don't exist.

- Go ask the writer who wrote Nightwing 0. I don't really care why she poisoned Bruce, he got his ass handed to him regardless.

- My scan did not suggest that "it didn't matter". Please try again.

- I'm sorry, but i'm not going to address any of Loeb's fatuous PIS drivel. Clark "stomped" Mongul with ease, and Bruce "stomps" a mind controlled grundy and shiva with ease. Moreover, i don't take anything in his Superman/Batman run seriously at all.

- Implications are subjective, if you didn't know. Additionally, are you attempting to say that your post contains none of your opinions at all?

@thejman251 said:

- Here you go.

- And do you actually think Jason wasn't holding back? He was trained by the All caste, an ancient group of assassins. If he was trying to kill Bruce, that fight would have gone much differently and he most certainly could have used the techniques that he learned. It's quite clear that Jason was just hurt and not trying to kill his father. Don't attempt to flatter yourself or Bruce.

And yes I was talking in hand to hand because it was suggested that Shiva is vastly superior in hand to hand. Yet the scans show otherwise. Plus if Shiva was so vastly superior at hand to hand, why did she have to poison Bruce first.

- There aren't any scans that show otherwise, sorry they don't exist.

- Go ask the writer who wrote Nightwing 0. I don't really care why she poisoned Bruce, he got his ass handed to him regardless.

- My scan did not suggest that "it didn't matter". Please try again.

- I'm sorry, but i'm not going to address any of Loeb's fatuous PIS drivel. Clark "stomped" Mongul with ease, and Bruce "stomps" a mind controlled grundy and shiva with ease. Moreover, i don't take anything in his Superman/Batman run seriously at all.

- Implications are subjective, if you didn't know. Additionally, are you attempting to say that your post contains none of your opinions at all?

How does that scan show him "wobbling"?

And yes your scan from Superman/Batman did nothing to support your point. If you think it did please explain how.

If someone is poisoned then a fight between them and someone else is already loaded in their opponents favor. He got his butt handed to him because he was poisoned. So yes it does matter.

- I suppose that you are paying little attention to the art on the scan in which Bruce says "i'm still standing Jason"

- it did not prove yours either.

and again Bruce suggest that in Shiva's case it didnt matter.

- Oh, and the mere fact that he ended Shiva like a child suggests that her skills were not all there. Yes, the scans support this(your scans in fact) as he says "It's over" to an "equal", as you want them to be, and dismiss her within 1-2 pages. This is as valid as claiming that Bruce can beat the spectre because of that infamous kick. Hence, you'll need to do better than attempting to cite Loeb's idiocy if you're trying to convince me of something.

- If someone is being mind controlled in a fight, then the fight is most likely in the favor of the one in control of their mind. Shiva lost because she was mind controlled. So yes, it does matter.

- I can do that as well(as you can see above).

- I'm sorry that Bruce was too slow to deal with a shuriken, perhaps he should attempt to train a bit more.

- Moreover, every time Bruce uses anything on his utility belt in a fight, he's being unfair.

- Furthermore, if find that as a Batman fan, you are being incredibly hypocritical as i'm sure you don't complain when Bruce uses a batarang or any other gadget from the plethora that he has on his belt.

I quoted him saying that he was still standing. That does not mean he is wobbling....And are you talking about the white lines? Yes....that is the universal signal for wobbling....

No it is not equal to Bruce being able to beat the Spectre.

You have Shiva beating Bruce in 2 pages as seen in the scans you showed, and then you have Bruce beating Shiva in 2 pages in the ones I showed. They are even.

Where does it say that Shiva lost because she was mind controlled? Where does it say that her skills were effected? Were does it say that mind control means your skills are modified. If anything the skills of Grundy and Nightshade are increased because Grundy for example is otherwise a brute, but his tactics were obviously more effective because of Grodd's control.

Bruce being too slow to dodge the shuriken is actually rather WIS because he has clearly had feats where he has dodged beams of light and punched/blocked bullets. So based on a large majority of speed/dodge feats, he should have been able to avoid it. But he didnt and I absolutely grant you that.

And Bruce using his utility belt in a hand to hand contest would be him being unfair. The whole discussion is based on hand to hand, not weapon to hand or any other combination.

I am not complaining that Shiva used poison or the shuriken. In fact it was smart of her to do so because the fight would otherwise be near to equal. I am merely pointing out that you cannot claim that Shiva stomped Bruce in hand to hand because in your example Bruce was already at a extreme disadvantage because he was poisoned. Show me a scan where she stomps Bruce in a hand to hand fight with neither side using any gadgets or equipment.

@thejman251: 1. - You have some nerve. Shiva is superior to Bruce in hand to hand combat. Get over it.

That's what you said to me when I asked for your opinion.

Now as for the new 52 fight,it's ok,I agree with you.Bruce got humiliated etc.It's 100% valid.

2.Well,even though you actually said you couldn't prove it,you also mentioned that you are going to use this battle in this thread as an example.

- 1. Yes, that's my opinion. However, i did not mention the scan as being hand to hand.

- 2. That is true.

1.I see.Even though I disagree,I respect it.

2.Well it can't be used if it can't be proved.

2. It can't be used as a defeat in a random encounter however, it can be used as a general defeat.

Agreed,but you should consider that it was possible that Bruce was holding back.

- That's always possible and vice versa.

- However, don't believe that Bruce would hold back to the extent that he would be completely at Jason's mercy and need Richard to save him.

- For example, in Batman: Under the Hood i would say that he was holding back and he got serious when needed. From my experience, if Bruce is holding back, he'll get serious before he gets his ass handed to him most of the time. This is why i don't believe that he was holding back.

- Additionally, Jason in the New 52 is more skilled than Pre New 52 Jason for various reasons.

- This is all an explanation of my thinking and nothing more.

Fair enough.I respect your opinion and I am glad we talked this through.

Thanks for your time.

- That's always possible and vice versa.

- However, I don't believe that Bruce would hold back to the extent that he would be completely at Jason's mercy and need Richard to save him.

- For example, in Batman: Under The Red Hood I would say that he was holding back and he got serious when needed. From my experience, if Bruce is holding back, he'll get serious before he gets his ass handed to him most of the time. This is why I don't believe that he was holding back.

- Additionally, Jason in the New 52 is more skilled than Pre New 52 Jason for various reasons.

- This is all an explanation of my thinking and nothing more.