Does anyone like Batman for Batman

First of all. I suggested their be a gradual transition of new heroes with the old until the old generation is gradual weeded out.The very fact your shooting down this idea makes you come off as a child who had his favorite toy taken away, and refuse to play with the brand new toy because your not familiar with it.

We've gone through

• Veterans (born 1922-1945)
• Baby Boomers (born 1946-1964)
• Generation X (born 1965-1980)
• Generation Y (born 1981-2000)

We could of easily had 3 different generation of superheroes if writers weren't so afraid.

Also I like how your arrogant enough to talk for people. Children today don't grow up with same television shows from those in the 90's. The only people who complain about cartoon shows today, and say they suck were children form the 90's. Similar, people who grew up with a particular dub, tend to favor it to those who grew up with other dubs. In short it's not about new heroes sucking, and know one reading. It is more so about older readers are so pulled back with notsalgia that they refuse to give new characters a chance, whether they be good or bad.

@shonen3: HAHAHAHA you are funny as shit i shot down your idea becuase its stupid .Batman and Superman are world wide Icons who the hell can you replace those two with nobody thats who

so about 20 years a generation so what if they had jumped to the next generation like you wanted characters like Batman and Superman would still be their silver age versions woo right becuase they where super interesting than right?

Lets see Batman continues to out sell newer characters every month so its not arrogance its seeing fact the one who is arrogant here is you calling "paid" writers lazy and cowards becuase they dont event a new character ever 5 seconds get over self buddy and get a new hobby you obviously need one

Of course, but he's wildly fully developed world of Gotham and its villains are also aspect of the character. That is the thrill of Batman and how its been for the last 75 years.

@shonen3: I'm sorry but I don't understand why you are thinking this way. So when Disney made Hercules the movie, and then the TV show, were you complaining that they are still using a 3000 year old character? How about the new Sherlock Holmes show, are you annoyed that they are using a character that is about 400 years old?

If not, then why are you annoyed at a fact that a character that has just become 75 years old, is still being written about...

And let me tell you there are different periods in someones life someone could write about. Currently we have Zero Year and present stories told at the same time in different books. And shall we not include Batman Beyond which depicts an old Bruce which is currently also being published. What I don't understand is why do you think writers shouldn't write about a character, that people are fond of and want to see more of.

Oh and we did get more than 3 generations of characters. Or do Wally, Barry, and Jay not count? Or since we are talking about Batman do Dick, Jason, Tim, Stephanie, Cassandra, Barbara, Helena, Jean Paul, Kathy, Kate, Bette, Terry, Damian, and even Luke not count as different generations?

You are really acting very irrational. It is obvious you are close minded and anything i'm telling you is going out the ear because you just don't want to listen to anyone but yourself. However, I'll give it a shot.

First off to shut down someone idea you need to provide reason. You did not. First off you said "Ya lets just create new heros every generation that makes sense becuase its not like a generation is a short ass time"

I then presented you with the generation gaps in human history around the time of superman creation to present showing a span of 22 years roughly in between. Your trying to tell me you can't come up with unique and interesting superheroes to gradual build a fan base of their own,and then replace the oldies once their established. This transition would also remain and built upon during reboots. Thus, providing a clear history and order in comics.

"so about 20 years a generation so what if they had jumped to the next generation like you wanted characters like Batman and Superman would still be their silver age versions woo right becuase they where super interesting than right?"

Again you are not listening. What I am saying is rather than keep things with the same heroes from past generation throughout. What should been down was to have a gradual change in which old heroes either died/retire and new generation of heroes were born. So their would be an new heroes working alongside older one. With eventually old heroes passing on their mantle, dying, or retiring. I'm not even suggesting silver age versions or anything like that.

Superman technically could remain indefinitely,but I see no reason why the mantle for batman had to be fixed to bruce wayne indefinitely. Sure they are iconic heroes,but at the same time one should not let ones worship of these icons get in the way of progress. This is why I liked battle of the cowl storyline,and dick grayson taking the helm, because it finally showed a right a passage in which one generaiotn takes up the mantle of the other. This is what I'm suggesting. If you think that is stupid that it fine,but I don't. The world is constantly evolving with people taking the helm of leaderhip of past leaders/pioneers in the real world. Same should hold true in comics.

"

Again I'm not talking about sales, but rather progression in comic continuity. Batman is the number 1 popular character in DC this is true. I think the fame also attributes to the wide success and popularity of the dark knight movies which has drawn in readers. However, what I am saying is that the whole dynamic should have been a gradual evolution, and change. Just as how on tv we aren't watching the same shows from 60's and 70's. Televsion has evolved and cater for new audiences, with new characters and such. The same should have been presented in comics.

Your first example isn't really a good one. Hercules the movie and tv show were made for the same generation,used the same animation, and had a similar characters and backstory. A better example would be how they have redone teenage mutant ninja turtles on cartoon network. Many nostalgia kids of the 90's hate the new teenage mutant ninja turtle cartoon,and call it a disgrace. Owing that the show from the 90's and the movie was better. Hell, many people who grew up with the original power rangers hate and call the new generation crap, despite the new graphics and theme to the rangers powers. Yet, using both ninja turtles and power rangers as an example.

People who were exposed to the new generation of power rangers, or ninja turtles don't have these hang ups of these new characters.

I would be annoyed by sherlock holmes if they kept the world changing (as in becoming more modern), while at the same time keeping the same characters stagnant, with each retelling. The problem I have with the "75 year old character" is that the world is forever changing in comics, which should reflect logically that new protectors shouldstep up. Yet, we have the same characters present throughout these 75 years. This is where my problem lies.

What I was proposing is that what should have happened was that their should a passing of the mantle. Just as how dick grayson for a brief period had his own robin, and was given the mantle of batman their should be more of stuff like this in the comic. In which the next generation takes over for the old. This is where my problem lies. We don't have that, but rather old generation still active and working alongside new generation.

"

Again like I've said. All these flashes are currently active which i find is the problem. I don't mind an old generation bestowing wisdom on new generation, or helping out the new generation once in a blue moon. Example like how bruce puts on the batman suit in batman beyond to save terry from ink. Yet, we have instead all these heroes active, because fans still can't let go of the past heroes.

@shonen3: fine here are two flaws with your idea

One characters like Batman they have evolved beyond just being characters they are manafestations of greater things Batman is humanity at our finest and a symbol of justice locked in a battle to save Gotham for eturnity throwing everything he has at the problem even if it means sacraficing his own happiness. Dick is none of this and while it may be interesting to examine Dick becoming Batman and having to deal with that sort of thing it can only be short lived

Two you have over looked villains because lets face it the moment you intraduce a new generation thats means you have to intraduce new rogues this becomes apparant even worse for Batman becuase most of his rogues are made up of the insane who only care about Bruce's Batman

@shonen3: People can move on and do the legacy thing, but not doing so isn't lacking maturity. Many, and I would say a majority of people prefer Bruce as Batman over Dick. If you don't like it, you don't like it. But the writers are not immature because they don't see your viewpoint as valid.

That whole second paragraph about how comics "should reflect" whatever. That is your opinion and nothing more. It's a subjective viewpoint. It's not a fact or anything solid.

My advice to you is to come to terms with it. Because on some level Bruce Wayne is always going to be Batman, and that is a fact.

1. how is my argument flawed. At the same time of the movie and show, there was Hercules and Xena as well. Both stories about the same character. There is no legacy to hercules, he didn't pass on the mantle or anything like that.

2. And lets go with your Ninja Turles...there have been many different versions of them but they are always the same 4 turtles with a splinter.

3. Each version of Sherlock has more and more changes in the setting! I mean I just watched the movie and it has a lot more steampunk than the original ever had (since steampunk didn't even exist then). And the TV show is based in the modern world...

This hasn't strengthened your argument. I am saying there are multiple characters that are constantly being written over and over and over again, and you are saying one is ok and the other isn't. And your main argument seems that the different generations like Power Rangers have fans from each generation. But then you completely ignore Beware the Batman, Batman the Brave and the Bold, Young Justice, DCAU (especially Batman Beyond), or are they too similar for your liking?

And no all those characters are not active right now!

Jean Paul, Cassandra, Stephanie are out of the picture. Helena is now not even under Batman's sphere of influence. Terry is from the future where he TOOK UP the mantle of the Bat. Damian is dead...

I think you are holding too much of a double standard here. Comics are just like any other forms of stories and media and popular characters last and more stories are produced under said popular characters. If you want to complain, at least complain about Romeo and Juliet which is the same story adapted over, and over, and over again. At least with Batman we get different stories and adventures.

There some flaws to your argument

I'll address point number2

2. Have you consider that if we actually have progressive storytelling in which superheroes retire, and whatnot, that eventually the same would have to the villians (assuming they aren't mortal). I mean that's a logical reason behind it if we take that into consideration. Also having a past villian a hero faced fighting against someone who has taken up their persona isn't a bad thing. It shows a right of passage in a sense. In that the new hero shows that they can handle what the old generation has gone through. It also in an interesting relation shows how they would interact differently with the villian. This is one of the reason why joker's fight against terry mcginnes was so good. In the fight we saw Terry didn't choose the silent and serious approach against the joker, he didn't fight honorable like batman. As terry said he fight dirty, and he choose tactics of antognization by laughing at the joker's joke just to get him riled up.

1.This isn't a flaw. For starters it provides a good foundation story for the writers to use as a sub plot within the version early on in the character. For example as you mention it can show how Dick copes with the responsibilities of being batman, and the change it would have on his personality, fighting style, relationship etc. Also with Dick being batman we can get different methodology, interaction, and new relationships. Recall, superman wasn't entirely happy about Dick putting on the cowl. If DC wasn't so short livd in that issue we could easily of expanded on the idea of some superheroes in the justice league just not accepting/taking dick seriously as batman. They still look at him as a sidekick, and could then show him having to earn their respect.

ALSO LOL AT IMMATURITY OF INTERNET DEBATES. PEOPLE THINK IF THEY GET THE LAST WORD IN THEY WIN. SO CHILDISH.

1.You didn't specify this is why when speaking of hercules you should differentiate whether yoru talking about animated series (closer to home), or the legendary journeys. Your example is flawed because all these came out during the time of the same for the same generation. Hercules the legendary journey came out in 1995, which was 1 year after the series of hercule's movies. Both were in the 90's. Both were meant for the same generation (generation Y). Their is no generation gap here. Power rangers, and teenage mutant turtle are better because they are actually between different generations (Generation Y, and Generation Z).

2. There have been many version of Ninja turtle,but then at the same time many people who grew up with the original series of the 90's. Many people even with keeping the general core storyline are immediately turned off by anything shown in the 21st century, even the live action version of the turtles. The reason being is because people always prefer what they are first exposed to, and consider it better than any other version.

Hell they did a live action version using a slightly cheaper version of the costumes from the movie, with the simple introduction of a female character. Immediately many people who watched the old 90's movie were turned off because of venus, the magic element, and just called the show crap. Hell many people who watched the 90's movie would not give the version produced in the 21st century a chance because it is CGI, and their use to the suit. Many people don't like the new villians because they were exposed to shredder only.

General point:people have a stubbornness to never give something new a chance and always latch onto what they were first exposed too.

3. So did the new Sherlock home movies, have the setting taking place in 1950's, then 1960's, 1970's, then 1980's then 1990's etc. With Watson and sherlock still dressing in the attire they had since their creation in 1880- 1914 ? Nope they kept the world as it is. Yet, with comics the world is always changing

Steampunk is a sub-genre of science fiction that typically features steam-powered machinery,^[1] especially in a setting inspired by industrialized Western civilization during the 19th century (1801-1990). The whole concept started of steampunk started in 1927 so it make sense it was not in the original. Having it within a genre that takes place between 1880-1914 is not counteracting in anyway because it fits with the storyline.

Also in regards to your second point about the tv show I've never seen it, but tell me does sherlock holme still use the same devices, wear the same clothing, use technology from the 19th century. My claim is art should mirror life. No one is immortal, and rather reusing back the same character in modern updates over and over. Some sort of legacy should be established.

The general point is that evolution of a legacy should not be stagnant and tied to a single character indefinitely.

How would you feel if everyone on the planet just stopped procreating and remain alive indefinitely.We'd go extinct eventually right. How do you feel if only a Newton was the only physicist, We'd have a lot of incorrect theories. If you can't see where I'm going with this. I'm just point out how foolish it would be if their was no built upon prinicple in which 1 generation takes over for another. Each person on this planet has a different interpretation of the world. It is because of that differences that humans have advanced so far ahead as a species. The can be said for comics in which having a different person take on the role would show a different methodolgy, interaction, view on things, which to me would be a fresh and exciting field. Over constant reboots and reusing back the same character in different time periods.

For example

When Mendel found the general basis for mitosis, and he died.Did people just go well founding father for genetics is dead, did people stop their. Nope we had other science use other methods and later generation who ended up using Mendel's founding principles to help advance and discover mitosis and meiosis.

"This hasn't strengthened your argument. I am saying there are multiple characters that are constantly being written over and over and over again, and you are saying one is ok and the other isn't"

It hasn't strengthen my argument because you are against my idea. There fore you will always find an excuse or some petty reason to disagree with it.

" And your main argument seems that the different generations like Power Rangers have fans from each generation. But then you completely ignore Beware the Batman, Batman the Brave and the Bold, Young Justice, DCAU (especially Batman Beyond), or are they too similar for your liking?"

Where are you going with this ? Young Justice, DCAU, Batman brave and the bold, the batman. Many people who grew up in the 90's would say the original batman and superman animated series were the best. They would tell you that even with "the batman" flashier fighting style, and artwork. They still prefer batman: the animated movie. Many who were exposed to Kevin Conroy can't see anyone else as batman's voice, while those who were not exposed to him would think otherwise. The DCAU on the otherhand is an interesting gap overlap because seeing the story is a continuation of the animated series, and utilizes the same artstyle, storytelling. Many nostalgia fans of the 90's would give it a shot. People who grew up in the 90's many don't watch young justice, or batman brave and the bold Because it's not the cartoon of their generation they grew up with.

Batman beyond however would not have been successful as much if Bruce wasn't around. They needed a tither something people were familiar with to get people interested into watching a show with a new character. This is exactly what I'm proposing for comics. A gradual transition between old generation to the new.

"

I sure do.

@shonen3: i guess i will start with the first part

The problem is with your argument here is that can only be short lived nobody want to constantly read about some one being compared to the original. Than if just examine Batman villains this becomes even worse becuase they dont give a rats ass about anyone but Bruce becuase they are "his" dark reflections anyone else wouldnt worthy of their time which is why in TDKR you see Joker in a coma like state becuase Bruce was the only one that mattered.

Yes this is a problem becuase this can only be "short lived" after a while it would just return to the statis quo

And finaly what the hell are you talking about i responed to you which means i expected a response in turn so the one being immature here is you

Except I never stated it would be constantly being compared just that it could be one of the many plots that writers can use for great storytelling if they ever chose to add in new generation of characters. So your really trying to convince me here when Dick grayson became batman all of batman's rogue just up and left the city. RIIIIIIGGGHHHHHTTTTT ?

I'm talking about the internet debate mentality that if you get the last word in you win the argument. I've seen people who are utterly lose a debate, yet they always want to get the last word in because they think that means they win. I was merely pointing out that is how people debate on the internet.

I like him equally for him and his villains that I find compelling and interesting (Ra, Joker, Freeze Pre -Flashpoint, etc.), and his supporting cast. So I like his books for him, but it's not just him, or just his villains. It's everything about it from the characters, to the tone, to the setting the writers use.

@shonen3: Most of Batman's villians are crazies that only care about Batman so they wouldnt leave town they would just give up like Joker did in TDKR and than if you dont even count the crazies than you have guys like Ra's and Bane who would stomp Greyson into past without much diffaculty and thats the whole point of Batman that you dont understand is that these are villians only he can take on becuase Bruce is the only one with the heart and will to continue the fight then no matter how many people they kill no matter how many lives they distory.

Part of the tragity of Batman is someday dick, barbra, tim, jason, and even Alfred will leave and yet again be alone in his quest for justice. While Alfred will die the rest will leave becuase they all want more beyond being heros or it isnt how they wish to spend the rest of their lives not becuase they are lesser than Bruce but he is just impossable to live up and to match

@shonen3: @lordofthenorth: hey, please be respectful, and no need to be name calling.

and now just to @shonen3:

My Hercules example:

1. Are you saying that fans of TDKR are the same fans of Beware the Batman which came out roughly at the same time? Did it even have the same audience because I beg to differ. I have little cousins and they have watched Beware the Batman but definitely did not watch TDKR. Fans of TDKR are also not fans of Beware the Batman because those same fans are from the DCAU generation. Because you know, multiple generations live at the same time ;). Plus you made an argument that Hercules has no mantle to pass, but why do you think Batman does. Many people think Batman is Bruce Wayne. In fact I think its ridiculous to create legacy characters in the name of the original. It completely disregards that new character as a new character.

2. With TMNT, your point is? Yes people like stuff that they got used to. People are creatures of habit. But my point is even though the versions are different, the characters are the same. Do you dislike that or are you in favor of that?

3. The new show is totally modern with throw backs. And Batman's costume really hasn't changed much. In fact Batman is one of the few characters to keep their cape. And my point about the steampunk is the first Sherlock Holmes had no steampunk, the newer ones did, meaning the character changed to keep up with contemporary fads and times.

And you point about Newton being the only physicist...Batman isn't the only detective nor the only superhero. He is the best of his time, and well I am reading tales of his time. I am more than happy to believe all these tales and adventures happened within his lifespan. Since it is you know...fiction. And to be honest, I read bronze age stories and on. The only time I come close to the silver/golden age is either for historic purposes (kinda like reading older Hercules stories), or via adam west. So these "drastic changes" in technology, I don't even see.

And yes I disagree with you, and I am giving you why. This double standard is whats holding me back. I have not insulted you, so please don't go about and calling my reasoning petty. In fact, I think holding double standards is far from a petty reason to dislike someones logic. If you held this as a critique over all stories, tv shows, characters, then maybe I can see your point. But otherwise I see nothing wrong with delving into the life of a certain character, and revitalizing that character for contemporary audiences.

And when I mentioned all the other Batman shows, many of the fans that grew up with those shows can't see why people love BTAS so much. So isn't this in effect what you want? Or is power rangers/ninja turtles a special deal?

And how bout someone like me, I instantly love EVERYTHING Batman. In fact, this is a true bias of mine. Although I can be critical of Batman like the movies or the comics and complain. If a bad comic or story has even a cameo of Batman, it became that much better for me. And you are right, I loved BB because Bruce was in it because no matter what, I am not reading Batman stories for any other character. I don't read Nightwing stories for Nightwing, heck I don't even read Dick as Batman stories because my favorite, my hero, the reason why I read Batman, is to watch Bruce Wayne. Just like how I would be upset if someone comes up with this "genius idea" that Herakles (his greek name) had a successor named Perakles. I would not read his stories, because for me I only really care about Herakles (true story, I liked him before Batman). And well, luckily the greeks and the romans didn't create a legacy character. Instead, they created a crazy amount of adventures just like a certain someone in a Bat like cowl.

Everyone liked "The Dark Knight" for the Joker

Most people liked the Justice League cartoon because of Batman. And Penguin episodes of 60's Batman got higher ratings than Joker episodes. TDKR with no Joker at all made more money than TDK, what's your point?

1. Your hercules example. What about it ? I've given you statistical data, and values showing how it was not suited for an example. Case closed.

"Because you know, multiple generations live at the same time ;). Plus you made an argument that Hercules has no mantle to pass, but why do you think Batman does. Many people think Batman is Bruce Wayne. In fact I think its ridiculous to create legacy characters in the name of the original. It completely disregards that new character as a new character."

It seems the whole hercules data went over your head.

Hecules movies,and tv show were for generation Y, not Z. Hercules was created around 1994.Where as generation Z was born between 1995-2003. Also yes while multiple generations grow at the same time, you have forgotten that different generations will be exposed to different tv shows and influence.

What your parents found as good music,entertainment and exciting in their young may not appeal to you when you were born and exposed to different taste. I mean how many children you know knows watch "I love Lucy" over pokemon on the tv ?

In short What children of the 90's grew up with for activities, or watched on tv is not the same shows that children in the 21st century grew up with.

Plus you made an argument that Hercules has no mantle to pass, but why do you think Batman does

Are you aware hercules has a long history of heroes in his family and their is a mantle associated with the original greek storyline

For example

Hercules is the half brother, and great grandson of the Perseus (You may have seen him in the attack of the titans), and was succeded later by Theseus killed the minator similar to perseus.

Perseus--->Jason--->Hercules--->Theseus

Oh and the reason they are retold in seperate arcs was because greek heroes weren't of the same generation. So their story arcs could be told in separate stories.

Where does Batman legacy again ? We've had Bruce wayne for 70+ year, but never anyone else taking up the helm in the comics. Where are the transition.Yes we got Dick grayson as batman but that soon changes.

2. "Are you saying that fans of TDKR are the same fans of Beware the Batman which came out roughly at the same time? Did it even have the same audience because I beg to differ"

Your acronym is it The Dark Knight rises, or The dark knight returns ? Using acronyms and shorted/half formed sentences leads to confusion. Unless when using the acronyms you at least put in parentheses the full form of the word so people can be aware of what you are talking about.

Nope and it is not even implied.This may go over your head so bear with me. First off how old is your cousin ? Is your cousin even aware The dark knight returns or rises exist ?

If it is The dark knight returns I'm sure if your cousin was aware of it he would enjoy it. Though its a bit mature also depending on the age so may need parental supervision.

If it is the dark knight rises then depending on your cousins age he may not enjoy it as it is catered more for mature audiences.

I am saying in regards to the batman movie that just by good public exposure of introducing a batman movie, and having it well received will want some people to explore more and find out more of the character. Which would spark interest in people to want to read the comics. Their is a reason batman all of a sudden is DC number 1 show runner.

"Did it even have the same audience because I beg to differ. I have little cousins and they have watched Beware the Batman but definitely did not watch TDKR. Fans of TDKR are also not fans of Beware the Batman because those same fans are from the DCAU generation. "

When I'm giving my example of generation differences you forgot to factor in your statement above what the intended audience would be for the generation. Let say your cousin is 8 years old since your ambiguous on this. If he was exposed to Batman and Robin the animated adventures, after watching the beware the batman. Which one would he favour or fine the animated series boring ? This is a good example because both shows are intended for their target audience.

I'm not implying nor am I insinuating that just because you grew up in a different generation you are going to see everything associated with a particular media. For example just because someone is born in generation Z, and they watch "beware of the batman" that they will also watch "TDKR". I'm assuming now since you intended the DCAU you are talking about Dark Knight returns.

Again you have not even implied whether you cousin is aware, or would like to see the movie in the above statement. You have only insinuated that he watches Beware the batman, and is not aware of the TDKR.

Also "Fans of TDKR are also not fans of Beware the Batman because those same fans are from the DCAU generation. " rightfully place just supports further my viewpoint in regards to people prefering what they are exposed towards firsty. Fans of TDKR who are from the DCAU are not fans of the "beware of the batman" because they are not the target audience, it is aimed for a different generation and age group, some fans have outgrown childish batman and would only take a fallback to watching animation if it is in some strech resemblance to the animated series they grew up with.

"And when I mentioned all the other Batman shows, many of the fans that grew up with those shows can't see why people love BTAS so much. So isn't this in effect what you want? Or is power rangers/ninja turtles a special deal?"

Another supporting point for me. Thanks for agreeing.

Hell for example I use to watch Yu-Gi-Oh! and even though the core of the dueling in the show is still left in tact I would not go out of my way to watch "Yu-Gi-Oh! Zexal" because It is not my intended age group. I've outgrown watching cartoons intended for little kids, and I think the same logic can be applied to fans of TDKR. If I ever watch Yu-Gi-Oh it would be the original series, and purely for the nostalgia factor because that is what I've grown up with.

Hell even the fanbase, and myself included who use to love the original pokemon is pissed off that the show is still being revolved around ash. This is why I prefer pokemon adventures from the comics. In the comics once red became champion of kanto, the story shifted over to a different region with an entirely new character. They didn't keep Red as the main character indefinitely.

3. The new show is totally modern with throw backs. And Batman's costume really hasn't changed much. In fact Batman is one of the few characters to keep their cape. And my point about the steampunk is the first Sherlock Holmes had no steampunk, the newer ones did, meaning the character changed to keep up with contemporary fads and times.

Except I already gave reason why the old one had no steampunks. if you bothered to look at the dates I've presented for you. The characters did not change. This is the problem your not getting. the world change. What my problem lies with is in the fact that in comics the world is always changing yet we keep having the same characters presented throughout the story. It's basically like what would our world be if no one died, and everyone was immortal. Pretty ridiculous right ?

Batman original costume had him merely wear basic fabric that wasn't bullet proof and a simple cowl, with most of his gadgets on his utility built. This new 52 batman has X-ray vision due to special lenses in his eye, super hearing, mask that can change shape, bullet proof armor from head to toe, along with other nifty gadgets. Heck his cape is even a glider when in the original it wasn't.

"And you point about Newton being the only physicist...Batman isn't the only detective nor the only superhero. He is the best of his time, and well I am reading tales of his time. I am more than happy to believe all these tales and adventures happened within his lifespan. Since it is you know...fiction. And to be honest, I read bronze age stories and on. The only time I come close to the silver/golden age is either for historic purposes (kinda like reading older Hercules stories), or via adam west. So these "drastic changes" in technology, I don't even see."

Wow this went over your head big time. I guess seeing your so determine to try and prove your point is right, you would not even try to find the underlining reasoning behind my words but rather read them blankly. My point regarding newton was that if their was never successors for the founding fathers in different scientific discipline humans as a species would not have advanced as much. Each person brings their own interpretation and view of the world, which in turn the way they go about viewing things, morals, values etc are unique. Thus, this is why I'm so peeved when comics or any media for that matter hold onto a character indefinitely, because your only going to see the story through their eyes and no one elses.

Batman is not the only detective. My point isn't towards batman occupation It is towards the fact that Bruce wayne has been batman for 70+ years without anyone taking the role over. So while yes their is more than 1 detective, or only superhero. There is in fact so far only 1 Batman, who for the last 70+ years has been bruce wayne. My point as you so missed again.

." am more than happy to believe all these tales and adventures happened within his lifespan. Since it is you know...fiction"

Except the problem here lies with fiction remaining stagnant. and keep retelling the same character rather than passing on a mantle kind of like you know what happens in real life. If we use the logic well you it's fiction, well why even bother updating the world around batman to appeal to the current generation. Why not keep the world as it is was original intended in the 1930's. You why it is because art is suppose to mirror life and change with it. Bruce wayne is the world's greatest detective, and one of the best martial artist, but that does not mean the story of batman has to be focal point on him indefinitely it can easily be passed on. Michael Jordan is considered the world's best basketball player in his time, does this mean that Michael jordan from the time he was introduced, to current dominated basketball indefinitely. Nope. He retired, and now we have guys like Lebron James, and Kobe bryant who are the stars now. It's a generation shift,where new people come about and replace the old. This is how life WORKS.

"And yes I disagree with you, and I am giving you why. This double standard is whats holding me back. I have not insulted you, so please don't go about and calling my reasoning petty. In fact, I think holding double standards is far from a petty reason to dislike someones logic. If you held this as a critique over all stories, tv shows, characters, then maybe I can see your point. But otherwise I see nothing wrong with delving into the life of a certain character, and revitalizing that character for contemporary audiences."

There is not double standards. I'm against any show that holds onto the view of a single character indefinitely, and never wanting to show a passing of the torch from one generation to the next peeves me. If a show has existed over multiple generations and still uses back the same character I'm going to be pissed by it because even if you change the environment they are at. You still are limited and bound to the traits of said character,which infers a limited viewpoint, approach, and method of thinking on how to go about it. When Terry chooses to antognize and laugh at the joker, while Bruce would remain calm and serious. Different approach. Both these have different way of going about it which makes for interesting interaction with past villians.

Also, even in comic books they've been many rewrites, changes in origin stories, personalities and back story throughout the year. Showing even comic book writers themselves long for a desire for some kind of transition. The original superman creation he couldn't fly, or do all those crazy things. He was strong but not ridiculous as he's protrayed now, and was gradually built up in powers, with his personality also chaning. Hell even his parents in some continuity they are killed off, or one parent dies. In new 52, both parents were killed in a car crash when clark was still a teenager.

I called your reasons petty because when it all boils down to it.Both our reasons in fact. It pretty much this in a nutshell

Your side "I want to continue reading Bruce wayne as batman indefinitely"

Me" I want their to be a passing of the torch from 1 generation to the next sibilizing a clear history in comics. As appose to repeated retcons and retelling of the same character"

"And how bout someone like me, I instantly love EVERYTHING Batman. In fact, this is a true bias of mine. Although I can be critical of Batman like the movies or the comics and complain. If a bad comic or story has even a cameo of Batman, it became that much better for me. And you are right, I loved BB because Bruce was in it because no matter what, I am not reading Batman stories for any other character. I don't read Nightwing stories for Nightwing, heck I don't even read Dick as Batman stories because my favorite, my hero, the reason why I read Batman, is to watch Bruce Wayne. Just like how I would be upset if someone comes up with this "genius idea" that Herakles (his greek name) had a successor named Perakles. I would not read his stories, because for me I only really care about Herakles (true story, I liked him before Batman). And well, luckily the greeks and the romans didn't create a legacy character. Instead, they created a crazy amount of adventures just like a certain someone in a Bat like cowl."

Except Ra's has lost to red robin (Tim Drake), and Bane has already been defeated by Dick while he was still nightwing. Also I like how your trying to downplay dick when he's fought against batman's rogue and defeated them on multiple occasion. Dick is faster than batman, better acrobatic, has been complimented by Bruce as making things look easy. Plus before this new 52 reboot. Bruce was pushing 40's while Dick was still in his youth. Dick is considered to be the best hand to hand combat, next to batman. Perhaps you need to visit his respect thread to appreciate the character.

Also unless I'm missing something. Villians in gotham don't know Bruce wayne is batman right. How will the villians no that his batman is not the ones they were fighting, why would they leave antagonizing gotham if batman was not their. They won't. Many villians like black mask, kingpin,bane and scarecrow will still terrorize gotham. When Bane broke batman's back, and Azezeal took up the mantle. Even when bane new that he wasn't the real bat, did he just go, oh wait your not batman borrrinnnnggg. I'm leaving gotham bitch.

In the case of batman I'm not saying we should introduce a totally new chaacter, but rather their should be a passing of the torch from Bruce wayne, to a successor (Dick Grayson). Dick is a skill combatant, he may not be a good detective than bruce, but he's in his physical prime, faster, a brilliant leader, and has a strong support system.

I see no reason why he couldn't be the new batman with Bruce son eventually taking up the mantle later down the line.

"Part of the tragity of Batman is someday dick, barbra, tim, jason, and even Alfred will leave and yet again be alone in his quest for justice. While Alfred will die the rest will leave becuase they all want more beyond being heros or it isnt how they wish to spend the rest of their lives not becuase they are lesser than Bruce but he is just impossable to live up and to match"

This is true,but I see no reason why batman cannot make the ultimate sacrfice in his quest for crusade, and justice. Symbolizing that his obsession in trying to rid the world of evil eventually lead to his demise. With the falling of the bat, the curse and burden of mantle of batman, is subsequently and ironically placed upon the people who sort a life beyond batman. As Dick puts it "Gotham needs batman". So even if Dick wishes for a life beyond this he is tied to the mantle of the bat because the needs of the people outways his own.

It's almost akin to parents forcing their kids to go into a career they don't want to, but the kid goes into anyways and suffers in silent because they want to appease mommy and daddy.

Isn't that more tragic in which a curse created by a man from the lost of parents, ultimate falls upon those closest to him in his later life.

I never cared for Batman. He's sort of the Chuck Norris of the hero world. No, he's more like the kid who says he knows karate so the other kids who know karate won't beat him up.

Who said that??

you may like this story if you like the idea of different generations: Superman/Batman Generations.

Really?

@shonen3: But they know they arent the same person becuasethe way they move they way they speck is completely different not to mention Batman is taller and more built and their tactics.

When i said that they wouldnt bother attacking gotham i was talking about the insane members of batman's rogues characters like the joker and riddler wouldnt bother becuase no one else could match Bruce.

and the reason the robins and all of them have beat Batman's rogues is because writers arent creative enought to give them their own rogues so they have to latch on to batman in reality guys like Bane and Ra's should murder stomp Dick and Tim

Bane wouldnt bother with gotham becuase the only reason he wants Gotham is becuase Batman defeating him is his ultimate challage a testamint to his strenght and with out the real Batman in Gotham he has no reason to go their, and Bane had already beat Bruce so Bane shall Azazeal as just the next challanger to his power.

Dick is not faster than Batman; Batman is athletic perfection Dick is not and the only people who think Dick Greyson is second only to Batman are Nightwing fans. Batman, bronze tiger, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon and Cain are the 5 best of the DC street level fighters and they are leagues a head of everyone else. and i refuse to look at those silly respect threads for Dick Greyson his writers just make everything so damn easy for the kid i mean come on he beat Blockbuster when he was like 10 and people call batman a mary sue.

I dont see it as tragic becuase he isnt picking up the mantle becuase he wants to but he feels he has to and that makes Dick a coward

And who said they liked TDK for the Joker? You know other than Joker fanboys who like to overrate everything that involves him. Don't confuse people liking Ledger's performance the most with people not liking the movie as well. Jokers popularity has more to do with Ledger than Joker himself, I know people who didn't care about Joker prior to 2008 then TDK came and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. No great Ledger performance and death and Joker isn't as popular as he is now. People still enjoyed the whole movie not just Joker parts TDKR wouldn't have made more money than TDK if people only cared about The Joker. And let me clarify maybe people didn't like JL/U just because of Batman but it's obvious he was the most popular character on the show. Just look on Youtube JL/U videos featuring him have more views than the other character's videos.

This is a question Bruce probably asks his therapist after a date.

"Sometimes I feel like they are only in it for the Bat-Yacht"

"But they know they arent the same person becuase the way they move they way they speck is completely different not to mention Batman is taller and more built and their tactics."

In regards to this Batman is known to change his fighting style constantly throughout battle so it would be hard pressed to determine his fighting style or shift their of, all robins have trained under batman for years and know how he moves in battle. They should easliy be able to replicate it.

In regards to the height you are right Bruce is like 6'2 and Dick grayson is like 5'10-5'11, but again that's like 10 cm difference and whose going to be pulling out a measuring tape in the middle of the fight to check. Even still theirs always lifts lol ;).

In regards to the voices, I'm pretty sure Bruce Wayne mask his voices and it would take only a little ingenuity to just install a device within the batsuit to mimic batman's voice.

"When i said that they wouldnt bother attacking gotham i was talking about the insane members of batman's rogues characters like the joker and riddler wouldnt bother becuase no one else could match Bruce."

I don't think the riddler would stop. He's more focused on an adversary smart enough to solve his riddles. Dick grayson, and Tim drake aren't exactly idiots. Both are in fact highly intelligent, and I believe would keep the riddler interest.

The Joker has always been stated as a broken mirror image of Bruce Wayne (Batman), and is in fact in love with him. So it would sort of be appropriate that if one side of the coin is gone, then so should the other.

However. this is a work of fiction I can easily see the writers keeping him around or having him pop back later for sales.

Even if the crazy ones fade. 2 Face seems crazy as a bat to me and he stuck around for Dick.

We still have a vast majority of familiar villains that can easily keep the nostalgia readers interested. Heck, this is the purpose of a generation shift, to move out the old, and bring in the new.

"and the reason the robins and all of them have beat Batman's rogues is because writers arent creative enought to give them their own rogues so they have to latch on to batman in reality guys like Bane and Ra's should murder stomp Dick and Tim"

I whole heartedly disagree on this. The robins aren't just some 1/2 clones of batman. Each individual has their unique backstory, unique reason for becoming robin, each have their own strength. In regards to not being creative enough to have their own rouges let look at Dick Grayson tell me when has batman consistently fought against the likes of Saiko, Tarantula, Ravager for example. These are all unique to nightwing.Hell when dick grayson was nightwing hush never gave him any trouble, but as soon as he put on the mantle of the bat Hush basically tried to take over gotham, but was stopped by Dick's integrity and intelligent. You know the same Hush that gave bruce problems in their first encounter.

Also your forgetting in addition to being trained by Bruce, many of these robins have undergone extensive training, and fought against/with beings that Bruce never did in his 20's.

Example

Jason Todd in addition to being trained by Batman, had done the whole trip around the world just like Bruce. He trained with different martial art master, learn different weapons, and underwent explosive training. All at the expense of Talia Al Ghoul.

"Bane wouldnt bother with gotham becuase the only reason he wants Gotham is becuase Batman defeating him is his ultimate challage a testamint to his strenght and with out the real Batman in Gotham he has no reason to go their, and Bane had already beat Bruce so Bane shall Azazeal as just the next challanger to his power."

-Bane broke batman's back. Why didn't he leave gotham soon after then. Since after all he broke the bat. Bane once he did this had begun trying to take over the city. One of his goals was to challenge batman but the other goal was to instill order to gotham. Hell, even in the movie when he beat the crap out of bruce, he didn't just go. Well I defeated batman nothing to d here.

If Bane see Azazeal as the next challenge. Can you explain the logic why he wouldn't see someone as Dick grayson as a worth challenge. Especially seeing Dick has defeated him, and the likes of Lady Shiva before. Hell, Casandra Cain (Crazy feat batgirl), has been defeated by Dick grayson on multiple occasions. I'm sure Bane would find a challenge in Dick.

Dick is not faster than Batman; Batman is athletic perfection Dick is not and the only people who think Dick Greyson is second only to Batman are Nightwing fans. Batman, bronze tiger, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon and Cain are the 5 best of the DC street level fighters and they are leagues a head of everyone else. and i refuse to look at those silly respect threads for Dick Greyson his writers just make everything so damn easy for the kid i mean come on he beat Blockbuster when he was like 10 and people call batman a mary sue.

Except your wrong on this. On multiple occasions throughout the story people who have fought with Batman have stated that Dick is faster than Bruce. Also you seem to forgetting even if Bruce is at high end athletic he is way older than Dick which means that he's going to have the baggage that comes along with it. Such as lower reflex action, bone density decreasing (ask anderson silva), slower healing rate, and other factors.

Dick is physically at his pique while Bruce is getting older. It is not hard to believe that Dick is in better shape.

Also no it is not only nightwing fans. Let's use the fact, dick has trained under the batman himself, is better acrobatic than bruce. Has been shown to take down already the like of Lady Shiva, and some of the people on the list you've mention. Whether you refuse to believe or not its irrelevant.

http://www.comicvine.com/dick-grayson/4005-1691/forums/fighting-ability-thread-updated-10-30-13-1493592/#24

Seriously the robins aren't outclass. They are top tier martial artist and i dare say could give people on that list you present a run for their money.

Comic writers are the controllers of the fictional verse and can build up or tear down a character.Saying you reject the idea is irrelevant as it happened. So yeah you kind of need to get over that.

@shonen3: First Batman hasnt taught his robins everything he knows So he couldnt replacate Batman's fightning style not to mention he isnt as fast or strong as batman and Bruce is far more built than Dick andsince being insane also makes you a genous its safe to assume that they would reconse Dick with in a second

Dick and Tim may not be morons but they just arnt on Bruce's level so riddler would completely ignore them

Sorry they might have their personalities but in terms of skill they are jusy 2 bit clones of Batman. Oh three boring ass villians and one isnt even a villian. Sorry but theat shit with was pure WIS. So what if they have fought villians that Bruce didnt before he was 20. Robins are a stupid concept that was made for little kids so of course the have to over blow these characters abilities and skill or less why keep them around

Again Bane had already beaten Bruce if Batman wasnt in Gotham he wouldnt have come in the first place so Bane makes his fight with Bruce the begaining of conquest so after he beat Bruce he proved his abilties and used gotham as his starting point.

And on Multipy occations Batman has completely out ran Dick. Sorry but Bruce even in his "older" age has complete beat Nightwins ass without even trying

Sorry yet again this is all base writer inconsistance see Batman has shown to be able to easy beat the Robins yet some how we are to expect Dick can take on Lady Shiva who Bruce has trouble with sorry but thats WIS pure and simple

ok ok true. But the main reason TDKR made so much money and more money than TDK was because of how good it's predecessor(TDK) was! We all know that TDKR was no where near as good as TDK. Like a Call of Duty game and how every year the new game sells more than it's predecessor because of the title, not necessarily because of the game itself.

That's not always true though, look at Star Wars, the Empire Strikes Back is considered better than the first one and actually made less money. Batman Returns made less money than Batman '89, Spider-Man 2 which is considered better than it's predecessor made less money. Just because a previous movie was popular doesn't guarantee the next one will be. And even though TDKR isn't popular on the internet it had a Cinemascore of A from audiences so a lot of people clearly liked it.

I like Batman for Batman, but I'll agree with the others in saying that the character is only further elevated by his incredible rogues gallery as well as his supporting cast. It's due to his villains that Batman remains unfazed by most threats regardless of scale, and that he has overcome almost every imaginable form of adversity to the point where he's prepared to take on whatever happens next. It's due to his supporting cast that he's not void of compassion, that he has something real to fight for, and that he's learned to become one of the best mentors in the DC Universe. Plus, if it weren't for Batman, there would be no Nightwing (who's my favorite comic book character).

It seems at this point we really aren't basing anything on facts her but rather stance on preference on what we consider cannon or not, and preference for bruce. I think it's best to end the discussion because I'm getting really bored of having to come back each day and respond.

@shonen3: Well it was personaly perfernce from the begaining you thinking characters should be generational and i disagreeing thats the only way these can really go becuase at the end of the day be it writers or readers everything is based on perferance

I love all of the characters from Batman, and Batman is still better than all of them I think, mainly because Kevin Conroy's voice acting was so amazing in the DCAU

I have always like batman for batman....