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Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) 1 year, 1 month ago

Poll: Can Batman still be considered a 'street level' hero? (92 votes)

Yes 57%
No 43%

Whenever one starts talking about heroes and their respective power levels, I always see Batman getting lumped in with street level characters like Daredevil or Nightwing. I'm not sure why that is... I feel like it's been a very long time since he could be legitimately considered 'street level.' I mean, start with something as simple as his armor: a lightly powered exoskeleton, bulletproof plating, defensive countermeasures and gadgets of every stripe out the wazoo. Then his belt, with its seemingly endless variety of tricks and tools. But one can look even further, past the everyday kit he uses, to the staggering amount of resources he has at his command yet apparently chooses not to use. The rocket ships, supercars, sets of heavy power armor, supersonic jets, state-of-the-art forensic labs, tanks... none of these things are ones I would describe as 'street level.'

So, do you think the Caped Crusader still ranks amongst the pavement-bound heroes of the age, or has he ascended to something greater?

#1 Posted by Black_Arrow (2964 posts) - - Show Bio

he can be beaten by the most powerful street levels. So I guess he is one.

#2 Edited by KingRobbStark (165 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he is and at the same he isn't. That's why I believe their should be a third option (I voted no, just to be clear). I believe that Batman does get down and dirty, but I also believe that his intellect is what distinguishes him from the common street hero. He is the brains, the general, of the Justice League. That in my opinion puts him above 95% of all the super powered heroes. That just goes to show that you don't need powers to be great and powerful hero. You just can't be a retarded dumbass.

#3 Posted by Breadspread (774 posts) - - Show Bio

He's a versatile character, a writer could go either with him and still be true to Batman. I voted yes.

#4 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

It's a marvel thing... not a DC thing to classify characters as street level or whatever.

Given the implications of Final Crisis however Batman is not "street level" He'd be the thing that is above "Cosmic" if I remember right. The gods of DC are part of natural entities and Batman, Superman, and Green Lantern have all reached the point of that natural god level status within the universe...

#5 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

@black_arrow: You're going to have to elaborate on that one. Which street level hero are you thinking of that could take him on? Keep in mind that I'm looking for actual, official references here, not 'well, here's what would happen in my head.' Similarly, citing a Marvel street level that could potentially beat him doesn't really help, since such a fight would never actually happen.

@durakken: I wasn't aware that such classifications were limited to either of the Big Two... I've never seen anyone say they are before. Anyway, does it matter? Also, going to need you to explain your reasoning as far as placing Batman on a Cosmic level. Superman? Sure, definitely Cosmic. Green Lantern? Yeah, maybe. I can see that. But Batman? Nah.

#6 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (6130 posts) - - Show Bio

One the New 52 batsuit thread someone made a good point at him being a City Leveler now. I thought it made sense since his suit and the gadgets he makes, makes him easily a city leveler.

#7 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss: Basically Final Crisis implies that the New Gods are dying and the heroes of Earth are the New New Gods and The Return of Bruce Wayne, the traveling through time also implies that Bruce is a god in at least the mythological sense and since beliefs have power in DC that would make Bruce a god.

Also Superman and GL both had hands in the literal creation of the DC universe so... yeah...

#8 Edited by Jayc1324 (11860 posts) - - Show Bio

He hangs with goddesses and people with unlimited power and is just fine so no. If he is a street leveler than he should be the best street leveler there is but he has shown that he can be above that

#9 Edited by tupiaz (2180 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss said:

@durakken: I wasn't aware that such classifications were limited to either of the Big Two... I've never seen anyone say they are before. Anyway, does it matter? Also, going to need you to explain your reasoning as far as placing Batman on a Cosmic level. Superman? Sure, definitely Cosmic. Green Lantern? Yeah, maybe. I can see that. But Batman? Nah.

Just because you aren't cosmic doesn't mean you are street level.

One the New 52 batsuit thread someone made a good point at him being a City Leveler now. I thought it made sense since his suit and the gadgets he makes, makes him easily a city leveler.

He/she did. Here is the quotation:

@dmreyn: Batman already has most of this thing in pre-flashpoint universe,so why the complain? Take a loook in Batman Capability Website... Bruce isn't a street lever (he's more to a city leveler) and in a city like Gotham this kind of thing is more than necessary because there are no more ordinary crimes,but instead supercrime ,not to mention is leader of the Justice League now.

Can be found here.

#10 Edited by RustyRoy (12072 posts) - - Show Bio

People consider Wolverine a street level character also, I think Batman and Wolverine are past the street level category now, they're more like a city level character now as @ultrastarkiller pointed.

#11 Posted by MasterDetective (831 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a street person, and I find that description of the street offensive

#12 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

I like to split the term 'street-leveler' into tiers. On the low-end of the scale you've got the serious street-levelers, like Punisher MAX, for example. Then there's the mid-tier street leveler, these are guys like Batman and Captain America - peak human but still human. And then there's high-tier street levelers like Spider-Man, or Ultimate Cap - powerful, but still considered 'street'.

#13 Posted by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

Devil is a street level character, Cap is a street level character, or also Punisher, but not Batman. The difference is the versatility and the chance to face many threats. Batman has technology, genius, for fight against enemies more powerful than him.

#14 Posted by RDClip (1129 posts) - - Show Bio

He's basically superhuman at this point, so no. He's a supergenius, he's bulletproof (according to the last few issues of B&R), his tech can stand up against anyone, apparently he can plan for every single minute possibility, and he has stood up to cosmic level threats without being turned into a pile of red goo. So I don't really consider Batman 'just a human' anymore since writers have made him into something that humans cannot possibly become (to the detriment of the character, IMO)

#15 Posted by tupiaz (2180 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

I like to split the term 'street-leveler' into tiers. On the low-end of the scale you've got the serious street-levelers, like Punisher MAX, for example. Then there's the mid-tier street leveler, these are guys like Batman and Captain America - peak human but still human. And then there's high-tier street levelers like Spider-Man, or Ultimate Cap - powerful, but still considered 'street'.

If you are going to do the scale like that, I would consider the mid-tier to be character like Daredevil and in the high end you find Batman maybe he isn't as strong but all his gear (see link in previous post) does the trick.

#16 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@tupiaz said:

@veshark said:

I like to split the term 'street-leveler' into tiers. On the low-end of the scale you've got the serious street-levelers, like Punisher MAX, for example. Then there's the mid-tier street leveler, these are guys like Batman and Captain America - peak human but still human. And then there's high-tier street levelers like Spider-Man, or Ultimate Cap - powerful, but still considered 'street'.

If you are going to do the scale like that, I would consider the mid-tier to be character like Daredevil and in the high end you find Batman maybe he isn't as strong but all his gear (see link in previous post) does the trick.

Perhaps, I don't know, I haven't read any of New-52 Batman. I would agree that street-levelers with more advanced gadgets would fall under high-tier street-levelers though.

Like pre-upgrade Black Panther. Even before his new powers his vibranium gear was already impressive enough that I would rank him as a high-tier street leveler..

#17 Posted by consolemaster001 (5357 posts) - - Show Bio

Not really

Online
#18 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

@rdclip: I agree. I like Batman better as a street level crime-fighter that doesn't have a lot of resources immediately available. His suit being lightly armored is fine, but lately it seems like the thing has an arsenal shoved into it besides. I've seen tasers in his fingertips, in the upper half of the cowl's ear and a hundred other places besides. I thought it was really silly when, as a goon attempted to unmask the unconscious Batman, the side of his cowl (near his temple) opened and knock-out gas blew out. There are only so many contingency plans one can reasonably stuff into a single suit of armor. There are some things you mentioned that seemed a little odd to me, though. First, Batman has always been a genius, that isn't a new change, and the kevlar in his armor isn't anything new, either (though I haven't read the latest issue of B&R... maybe something about it is new).

@rustyroy: See, I could understand why one might consider Wolverine a street-level hero. Beyond his absolutely ludicrous regeneration (which doesn't really bump him up a power level... Only makes him harder to kill, not harder to defeat.) and his claws, he doesn't have any immediately accessible resources. Yes, he could technically call on the X-Men, but he's not the sole decider of where that team's resources go.

@tupiaz: Okay...? That doesn't have anything to do with what you quoted.

#19 Posted by Black_Arrow (2964 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss: I thought about it and I realized that he is city level hero, he has too many resources to catch the villains. Also most of the street level protect a part of the city but Batman protects all Gotham. So if could re write my vote i will vote no

#20 Edited by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's fair to say that Batman began as a street-leveler. But the current Batman has risen beyond that. He's much more sophisticated in the way he goes about his business now. He's much more concerned with world events, and even cosmic affairs when his JLA job requires it.

He'll still go on "patrol" from time to time, but that's like his workout. I also think it's extremely important to him that the street part of his job is never completely over. It was street-level crime that took his parents away. If he wanted to go full-on tech and go against metahumans and monsters on a more regular basis, I think it's already been demonstrated that he can.

#21 Posted by RDClip (1129 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss: Kevlar is one thing, being able to take 3+ bullets and just shrug them off is another thing. Even with protection, a bullet impact should still hurt like hell and knock down any person. Batman should have to avoid the line of fire of bad guys, not just walk through it (that would have made the Arkham games a little too easy) I had the same problem when they did the same thing with Nightwing and Batwoman in recent issues.

#22 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

@rdclip: Ah, I see. Yeah, kevlar is decent at stopping a bullet, but won't dissipate the force. Three bullets, even behind a vest, would drop anyone (peak human or not).

@reignmaker: I agree with almost your entire post. The only bit I took issue with was the patrolling only from time to time thing. As far as I know, he still does it every night. I would think it's a kind of ritual for him.

#23 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (6130 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss: @rdclip: They don't wear Kevlar anymore remember in Nightwing 19 I think when he got shot with either a sniper or the bullets from the Copter that was chasing him? He shrugged it off and the guy said "he must be wearing some sort of Kevlar" And Nightwing said "No one wears Kevlar anymore it's so outdated". So what ever they wear must be really durable.

#24 Edited by RustyRoy (12072 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's fair to say that Batman began as a street-leveler. But the current Batman has risen beyond that. He's much more sophisticated in the way he goes about his business now. He's much more concerned with world events, and even cosmic affairs when his JLA job requires it.

He'll still go on "patrol" from time to time, but that's like his workout. I also think it's extremely important to him that the street part of his job is never completely over. It was street-level crime that took his parents away. If he wanted to go full-on tech and go against metahumans and monsters on a more regular basis, I think it's already been demonstrated that he can.

I agree with this.

#25 Posted by tupiaz (2180 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss: Sure it has. Just because you are not a cosmic level superhero doesn't make him a street level. Seems like you think Batman is a street level character just because he is not cosmic. He can be some in between.

#26 Edited by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

@tupiaz: Nope. Never said that anywhere. You are mistaken. In fact, I've been arguing that he is not a street level character. Did you read the thread?

#27 Edited by RDClip (1129 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultrastarkiller: Yeah I know they wear some kind of amazing material that is able to nullify all force and break mulitple laws of physics with just a one-line explination. All I'm saying is that it is stupid and lazy. If a normal human hero is wearing tights, then they should not be getting shot. It takes away any danger of firearms (unless they get shot in the face) if a guy in a skin-tight costume can just shrug it off. Batman, Nightwing, and Batwoman should rely on stealth and evasion when dealing with a gun toting baddie not just walk up to him, smiling.

#28 Posted by Squalleon (4567 posts) - - Show Bio

Not really......but Batman may be the most inconsistent character in DC.

#29 Edited by tupiaz (2180 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss said:

@tupiaz: Nope. Never said that anywhere. You are mistaken. In fact, I've been arguing that he is not a street level character. Did you read the thread?

So instead of saying I was right to begin with you gave me a weird answer. Oh well....

#30 Edited by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by Billy Batson (57976 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes of course.

BB

#32 Posted by novi_homines (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

HEEEELL NO!

Lol

#33 Posted by tupiaz (2180 posts) - - Show Bio
@end_boss said:

@tupiaz: You were never right.

@tupiaz said:

Just because you aren't cosmic doesn't mean you are street level.

You clear agree with that point of view even though it is not clear in your first post. So yeah I was pretty much right.

#34 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Posted by Billy Batson (57976 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss:

He's a human with no powers and mild equipment who fights crime on the streets?

BB

#36 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

@billy_batson: "Mild" doesn't even begin to describe what Batman has at his disposal. He has better tech and more gear than most small nations.

#37 Edited by Billy Batson (57976 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss:

It is mild compared to Iron Man, Blue Beetle and the likes weaponry.

BB

#38 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

@billy_batson: Not really, no. He has the cars, bikes, planes, ships, cycles, rockets, power armor, gadgets and just about everything else you could think of. Should he have all that? Maybe not. But he does. Read up on the current Batman run (or even stuff beforehand) and really pay attention to some of the wild stuff he uses in almost every issue. It's nuts.

#39 Posted by RustyRoy (12072 posts) - - Show Bio

@billy_batson: He also fights against super powered beings or at least used to.

#40 Posted by DwightSpitz (567 posts) - - Show Bio

he can be beaten by the most powerful street levels. So I guess he is one.

And still he can beat Darkseid as well (although that is arguably the biggest PIS ever).

#41 Posted by Billy Batson (57976 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss said:

@billy_batson: Not really, no. He has the cars, bikes, planes, ships, cycles, rockets, power armor, gadgets and just about everything else you could think of. Should he have all that? Maybe not. But he does. Read up on the current Batman run (or even stuff beforehand) and really pay attention to some of the wild stuff he uses in almost every issue. It's nuts.

Still gets captured by a clown.

BB

#42 Posted by matchesmalone21 (8686 posts) - - Show Bio

People do not tend to consider the Joker as a real threat because he is not a villain who usually is able to direct confrontation but more plans, diagrams and much more., but this is the biggest threat of the Joker, how you can defeat an enemy that knows everything about you, which can attack from anywhere, which could turn the rules against you,but how defeat it without stoop to his level, without having to succumb to your own dark side.

#43 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

@billy_batson: Ohhhh come on. You're not really going to trot that out, are you? The Joker is "just a man" in the same way that Batman is "just a man."

That is to say that they're not just men. There's something more. This has been hinted at several times in the Bat books.

#44 Edited by RDClip (1129 posts) - - Show Bio

@billy_batson: An amoral, immune to pain and fear, gang leading, charismatic, supergenius clown.

#46 Posted by entropy_aegis (15258 posts) - - Show Bio

When he doesn't have Penguin, Riddler, Killer Croc, Joker, Mad Hatter, Man-Bat etc in his Rogues Gallery maybe he will be considered more than a street level hero until then this topic is not debatable.

The same Joker who also stole Mxy's powers? the same Hatter who mind controlled the Doom Patrol?

#47 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

@lone_wolf_and_cub: The same Killer Croc who transformed into the Hydra and nearly leveled Gotham? The same Killer Croc who is now leading the Religion of Crime? I don't understand where you're even coming from with that post. Are you trying to say that because Batman's villains aren't all incredibly powerful extraterrestrials that he only qualifies for being a street level? Because, if so, I'd like to point you to Superman's most frequent and egregious antagonist, the one, the only, Lex Luthor.

Guess that means Supes is street level too, huh?

#48 Edited by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5024 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss: Lex Luthor>>>>>>>>Bat Villains when it comes to intelligence and threats to their respected universe. Are you seriously trying to imply that any of his Rogues are the same caliber as Lex? Please stop.

#49 Posted by sinestro_GL (3132 posts) - - Show Bio

If he gets hit by a train will he die?

If your answer was 'yes', the answer to the OP's questions seems obvious enough

#50 Edited by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinestro_gl: That is a terrible way to determine whether a character is street level or not. Literally the only thing that addresses is the durability of the hero, and that is far from the deciding factor for which power tier they occupy.

@lone_wolf_and_cub: But Lex is just a man at the end of the day, regardless of his feats. If you apply the same logic you're attempting to put on the Dark Knight, then they are equals simply by virtue of not having super powers. I agree that it's a stupid argument to make, but you perpetrated it, not me. I was just following your line of logic.