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#1 Posted by TheBournePoster (1635 posts) - - Show Bio

How furious will you be if Batwoman beats Batman in Batwoman 24? On a scale of 1-10?

#2 Posted by jayskee (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

25

#3 Posted by TheBournePoster (1635 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Edited by RustyRoy (13554 posts) - - Show Bio

1. I'd rather see her beat him than any other hero. Also he's been beaten so many times now that it won't surprise me at all and its taking place in her book after all.

#5 Posted by Wolverine08 (45153 posts) - - Show Bio

9. I just can't see Batwoman being able to take down Batman.

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#6 Edited by TheBournePoster (1635 posts) - - Show Bio

He is superior to her in every category. It just wouldn't make sense.

#7 Posted by RDClip (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd be happy if she did. He needs to be humbled every so often (especially now)

#8 Posted by RustyRoy (13554 posts) - - Show Bio

@rdclip said:

I'd be happy if she did. He needs to be humbled every so often (especially now)

A new word to hate.

#9 Posted by Wolverine08 (45153 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

@rdclip said:

I'd be happy if she did. He needs to be humbled every so often (especially now)

A new word to hate.

Exactly.

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#10 Edited by Breadspread (774 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm never that bent out of shape when Batman gets beat if it is well written.

If Batman becomes completely unbeatable then he becomes uninteresting. It is all in how Batman reacts... I'd like to think he can be beaten but not kept down; he can lose a battle here and there but he'll win the war; not always have the best analogy but he'll get his point across.

#11 Edited by ULTRAstarkiller (6294 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Edited by Joygirl (20156 posts) - - Show Bio

2. Kate has much better toys and should be able to pull a win.

#13 Edited by TheBournePoster (1635 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl:

Like what? Batman is faster, stronger, more experienced, more skilled, ect. What toys does she have?

#14 Edited by QueenCorp15 (1035 posts) - - Show Bio

10

#15 Edited by Jayc1324 (13175 posts) - - Show Bio

Over 9000! I don't mind him getting beat, but not by and batgirls or robins or batwoman or anyone that was inspired by him or wouldn't exist without him. The only one I might possibly accept beating him is nightwing. Also he is superior in physicals, fighting ability, tactics, equipment...

Only way it would be okay is if batman loses his mind or something

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#16 Posted by Joygirl (20156 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebourneposter: All of the crazy stuff she got from the DEO. Her armor that makes her nearly invulnerable, special tasers and tracing darts and whatnot. Her new toys are awesome.

#17 Posted by TheBournePoster (1635 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl:

Batman has all that stuff too.

#18 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (6294 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@thebourneposter: All of the crazy stuff she got from the DEO. Her armor that makes her nearly invulnerable, special tasers and tracing darts and whatnot. Her new toys are awesome.

This is nothing compared to what Batman has lol.

#19 Edited by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

Batwoman is probably the 2nd weakest member of the Bat universe, Only being stronger than Stephanie... probably. If Batman is beat by her I'd be more than a little annoyed, but hey, why not... they've already annoyed me with killing Renee Montoya, lowering her girl friends rank from commissioner in Metropolis to Captain to Lieutenant, said she's stronger than Barbara Gordon, and utterly disrespects Bette Kane and her legacy both with her gruesome near murder and changing her name and costume... seriously... Hawkfire v.v I mean Flamebird is stupid too, but it sounds way better.

I mean sure... why not make the army brat who only has a year of special forces training be better than Batman who went through that and more... and who's protege's are all considered above the level of special forces... It would just continue to show misandrist and bad story telling but hey, whatever you can ignore and floats your boat.

#20 Posted by Jayc1324 (13175 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: sounds like a bit of a rant there, but honestly I agree with everything you said. Batman should simply not be beat by her

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#21 Edited by Wolverine08 (45153 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

Batwoman is probably the 2nd weakest member of the Bat universe, Only being stronger than Stephanie... probably. If Batman is beat by her I'd be more than a little annoyed, but hey, why not... they've already annoyed me with killing Renee Montoya, lowering her girl friends rank from commissioner in Metropolis to Captain to Lieutenant, said she's stronger than Barbara Gordon, and utterly disrespects Bette Kane and her legacy both with her gruesome near murder and changing her name and costume... seriously... Hawkfire v.v I mean Flamebird is stupid too, but it sounds way better.

I mean sure... why not make the army brat who only has a year of special forces training be better than Batman who went through that and more... and who's protege's are all considered above the level of special forces... It would just continue to show misandrist and bad story telling but hey, whatever you can ignore and floats your boat.

This.

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#22 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: Hell yes it's a bit of a rant. What the editors/writers have written in Batwoman has pissed me off continuously.

Also, I'm going to retract what I said about her probably being the 2nd weakest... She's the weakest. Stephanie brown became Batgirl by Cassandra Cain giving her the identity. Cassandra respects the bat to such a degree that I don't think that she would ever given up the Batgirl identity to someone who didn't respect it or couldn't live up to some fighting ability. Stephanie was also being trained by Cassie, Bruce, Tim, and Black Canary, so I have to think that she was fairly well trained since she could hold her own against damian to some degree and she is just scatter brained rather than a bad fighter or something like that.

Batwoman would probably be better than Misfit if she didn't have teleportation powers and she is likely better than Wendy Harris, but that's it... so I retract my retraction... She's stronger than an untrained paralyzed 18 year old woman who I consider part of the Bat family, but most people don't... Although if we're going that far.. I guess she's stronger than Alfred and the dogs too... but I question Alfred since he was special ops... Ok so she is 4th or 5th weakest if you consider the 2 dogs, Wendy, and Alfred as part of the Bat family... and think she could beat Alfred who has more training and experience than her >.>

#23 Posted by batmannflash (6226 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't mind Dick Grayson or Cass Cain beating her because they definitely could be able to beat Batman (I'm certain Cass would win). But Batwoman? No. That's just PIS to make her look better. I don't see her defeating Bats. Drake, Todd, and Babs can't beat him either so Batwoman should not be able to.

#24 Edited by Jayc1324 (13175 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmannflash: I'm not so sure cass could beat him but that's a little off topic

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#25 Posted by The Stegman (25529 posts) - - Show Bio

20

#26 Edited by batmannflash (6226 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: sorry, got a little ahead of myself. Cass could beat him but it's not certain. I mean, she did beat Lady Shiva twice when even Batman probably couldn't. She's a greater fighter than Bruce. But then again there's a bunch of other factors which give Batman the edge.

#27 Posted by PatriotPerson (134 posts) - - Show Bio

800

#28 Posted by TheBournePoster (1635 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmannflash: Basically, it wouldn't be absurd if Cassandra beat Bruce. I don't think it would happen, but it wouldn't be dumb. This would be very very dumb.

#29 Posted by THEOCITYLEGEND (1293 posts) - - Show Bio

I will be fine with it as long as they give a valid reason for her to beat him that compensates for his superior experience, intellect and skill.

#30 Posted by UltimateJonathan (107 posts) - - Show Bio

No more heroes fighting heroes unless its in a fighting game.

#31 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

Batwoman is probably the 2nd weakest member of the Bat universe, Only being stronger than Stephanie... probably. If Batman is beat by her I'd be more than a little annoyed, but hey, why not... they've already annoyed me with killing Renee Montoya, lowering her girl friends rank from commissioner in Metropolis to Captain to Lieutenant, said she's stronger than Barbara Gordon, and utterly disrespects Bette Kane and her legacy both with her gruesome near murder and changing her name and costume... seriously... Hawkfire v.v I mean Flamebird is stupid too, but it sounds way better.

I mean sure... why not make the army brat who only has a year of special forces training be better than Batman who went through that and more... and who's protege's are all considered above the level of special forces... It would just continue to show misandrist and bad story telling but hey, whatever you can ignore and floats your boat.

Renee isn't dead.

#32 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@nico4ever: Yes she is. It says so in the very first issue of Batwoman #1

#33 Posted by dcdyno (130 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6521 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd be quite happy if she beats him. I like Batman, but as a Batwoman fan, I'd love to see her pull it off. She's pretty tough and skilled, and does have some handy gadgets.

But if Batman does win, I won't be too unhappy. He's probably had more training and has a higher budget for equipment.


Ending in a draw due to interruption or them agreeing to call it off would be O.K. too.

Basically, I'll probably be happy enough whatever way it goes.

But yeah, Batwoman victory would be nice. :)

#35 Edited by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6521 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait shouldn't this be called Batwoman vs Batman, and be in the Batwoman forum?

It's in her series after all.

#36 Edited by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@nico4ever: Yes she is. It says so in the very first issue of Batwoman #1

No, it shows her picture on a wall. It does not say she is dead. People just assumed that it was a wall of KIA cops. When asked about it, the creators were actually surprised that people assumed she was dead, as that's not what it was meant to imply. More recently, when asked about the possibility of using Renee again in the book, the creators expressed interest in it, but said that they would have to do it right and think of a proper way to bring her back.

#37 Posted by Nerd Of A Hero (903 posts) - - Show Bio

#38 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@nico4ever said:

@durakken said:

@nico4ever: Yes she is. It says so in the very first issue of Batwoman #1

No, it shows her picture on a wall. It does not say she is dead. People just assumed that it was a wall of KIA cops. When asked about it, the creators were actually surprised that people assumed she was dead, as that's not what it was meant to imply. More recently, when asked about the possibility of using Renee again in the book, the creators expressed interest in it, but said that they would have to do it right and think of a proper way to bring her back.

Relooked at the pages. You're right that the pages don't "say" that it was a memorial wall... However, the the art, the writing, the positioning, all indicates it is so that indicates the creators aren't aware of what they're doing or did it and thought they'd get away with it but then DC heard about it and said, "you can't do that" and so they back tracked.

#39 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken: Either way, the end result means she's still alive. Just stuck in limbo like so many others.

#40 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6521 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

Batwoman is probably the 2nd weakest member of the Bat universe, Only being stronger than Stephanie... probably. If Batman is beat by her I'd be more than a little annoyed, but hey, why not... they've already annoyed me with killing Renee Montoya, lowering her girl friends rank from commissioner in Metropolis to Captain to Lieutenant, said she's stronger than Barbara Gordon, and utterly disrespects Bette Kane and her legacy both with her gruesome near murder and changing her name and costume... seriously... Hawkfire v.v I mean Flamebird is stupid too, but it sounds way better.

I mean sure... why not make the army brat who only has a year of special forces training be better than Batman who went through that and more... and who's protege's are all considered above the level of special forces... It would just continue to show misandrist and bad story telling but hey, whatever you can ignore and floats your boat.

What are you saying here? That Batman being beaten by a woman is misandrist, or that Batwoman is a misandrist series?

#41 Posted by RustyRoy (13554 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd be quite happy if she beats him. I like Batman, but as a Batwoman fan, I'd love to see her pull it off. She's pretty tough and skilled, and does have some handy gadgets.

But if Batman does win, I won't be too unhappy. He's probably had more training and has a higher budget for equipment.

Ending in a draw due to interruption or them agreeing to call it off would be O.K. too.

Basically, I'll probably be happy enough whatever way it goes.

But yeah, Batwoman victory would be nice. :)

I'd be happy if Batman beats her but I wouldn't be unhappy if she beats him, and yeah a draw wouldn't be bad either.

Wait shouldn't this be called Batwoman vs Batman, and be in the Batwoman forum?

It's in her series after all.

Why does it matter?

#42 Edited by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6521 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

Wait shouldn't this be called Batwoman vs Batman, and be in the Batwoman forum?

It's in her series after all.

Why does it matter?

Not a big thing really. It just seems like this is slightly more of a Batwoman topic than a Batman one.

Edited: Though I suppose if this is meant for Batman fans who may be angry, then maybe it makes sense to be here.

#43 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@v_scarlotte_rose: Batwoman, given everything about her she should not be able to beat Batman. She's outclassed in every aspect to such an overwhelming level that if she were to win there is only really one reason for it and that is basically, she is female and gay/bi? and because they don't want to look misogynist or to make feminists happy they make her win. What this is saying is that it is ok for a woman to beat a man but not the reverse and equally that with less training, experience, resources, etc a woman bests a man which casts men as incompetent which overall is misandrists. The series itself is misogynistic and misandristic. The writing and such is clearly the former and in doing the former they over compensate with feminist ideals which ends up the latter for a lot of things. I know it sounds weird to say something is both, but it actually is the case for most things... due to the source of the hate is ideologically bankrupt and has a lot of self hate which is directed outward, but i'm sure noone wants another rant from me so I'll stop here lol

#44 Edited by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6521 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@v_scarlotte_rose: Batwoman, given everything about her she should not be able to beat Batman. She's outclassed in every aspect to such an overwhelming level that if she were to win there is only really one reason for it and that is basically, she is female and gay/bi? and because they don't want to look misogynist or to make feminists happy they make her win.

Being outclassed doesn't mean you will definitely be beaten. The idea of an underdog beating what looks to be an unbeatable situation is quite a common thing.

As for winning just because she's a woman and gay? Why would that be a thing? She's still a great gay female character, and doesn't have to beat everyone to prove that. Everybody loses sometimes.

What this is saying is that it is ok for a woman to beat a man but not the reverse and equally that with less training, experience, resources, etc a woman bests a man which casts men as incompetent which overall is misandrists.

It's O.K. for a man or a woman to win. A woman winning doesn't cast the man as incompetent, it just shows that she fought better in that particular fight.

The series itself is misogynistic and misandristic. The writing and such is clearly the former and in doing the former they over compensate with feminist ideals which ends up the latter for a lot of things.

Can you give examples of either?

I know it sounds weird to say something is both, but it actually is the case for most things... due to the source of the hate is ideologically bankrupt and has a lot of self hate which is directed outward, but i'm sure noone wants another rant from me so I'll stop here lol

#45 Posted by RustyRoy (13554 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

Wait shouldn't this be called Batwoman vs Batman, and be in the Batwoman forum?

It's in her series after all.

Why does it matter?

Not a big thing really. It just seems like this is slightly more of a Batwoman topic than a Batman one.

Edited:

Though I suppose if this is meant for Batman fans who may be angry, then maybe it makes sense to be here.

I was talking about the Batwoman vs. Batman thing, why does it matter what's it called? Its the same and a user named it.

And yeah this might have not gotten as much response if it was in Batwoman forum.

#46 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6521 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@rustyroy said:

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

Wait shouldn't this be called Batwoman vs Batman, and be in the Batwoman forum?

It's in her series after all.

Why does it matter?

Not a big thing really. It just seems like this is slightly more of a Batwoman topic than a Batman one.

Edited:

Though I suppose if this is meant for Batman fans who may be angry, then maybe it makes sense to be here.

I was talking about the Batwoman vs. Batman thing, why does it matter what's it called? Its the same and a user named it.

And yeah this might have not gotten as much response if it was in Batwoman forum.

Well seeing as this battle will be in Batwomans series, I thought it would make more sense for her name to be put first.

#47 Posted by RustyRoy (13554 posts) - - Show Bio

@v_scarlotte_rose: Okay, although I don't think many think like that when posting something like this. Most of the times its you're favorite character first and then someone else, like Batfans say Batman/Superman and Superfans say Superman/Batman and sometimes its in alphabetical order.

#48 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@v_scarlotte_rose: underdog stories are almost never underdog stories when you look at the story. There is perceived underdogs that aren't really and those who are actually underdogs. Batwoman has literally no real chance to beat Batman on any level. Every stat that you can think to compare the two, Batman is superior. For it to be realistic for Batwoman to beat Batman it would require that she have something over him. She doesn't so she can't.

Why would that be a thing? Perhaps you aren't aware of the world you are in, but showing women as inferior in any way generally leads to claims of misogyny, same with violence, same with many other things... It's not called out directly all the time, but the more in there the more likely it will be called out, no matter how much it isn't. This is the type of thinking that a lot of publishers, editors, and writers have and they think it will sell well so they do it.

It casts men as incompetent because it shows a man who has no way of actually being beat by this particular woman being beat by them. The only reasoning thus becomes "won because female" I'm not saying that her beating him under any circumstance would be misandrist... just just about anything they are likely going to write. And keep in mind I'm not saying this because of one incident of this type of stuff. It's all over the place, but people ignore it. They're blind to it because for them it's normal and when something is normal you stop seeing it.

Yes there are examples of both, without going through the issues just consider, that Kate's GF whom I always forget her name. When she was introduced she was Metropolis Commissioner... she was then reduced to Captain when she moved to Gotham... That makes sense. She was reduced to Lieutenant with Flashpoint... no reason for this. I would classify this as at least one instance of misogyny. Not extreme mind you but it's there. On the other side, just count how many men who are not villains, enemies, portrayed well, etc. And I would guess there are probably less than 20 males in general in all 22 issues. This is not true when you look at male solo titles. You may think of excuses for it, but without getting into a more in depth talk and open analysis could one really say. I don't think the creators are misogynists/misandrists, but there is a lot of normalacy of this stuff and there is an apparent concerted effort to appeal to feminists and their accusations that is quite apparent with at least a few titles. If you want more concrete examples I'd suggest instead of listening to me, simply look at the comics... or really anything around you... and think about what this stuff is saying about these genders from the presented information, both within that story and within the overall universe.

#49 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6521 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy: Maybe that's what it is. I've seen people post threads about more than one character in a certain forum, almost certainly because of preferring a certain character.

#50 Posted by entropy_aegis (15472 posts) - - Show Bio

She cant beat him in a fight,straight up,prep or otherwise if he's giving his best too. I guess she could pull out some lame plot device like she did with Bane,OMG cord of doom.

She can win with a lot of one sided prep and back up though,I'm hoping that's what happens.