#1 Edited by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

What do you guys think of the first chapter of Batman's new origin story?

Things I liked:

  • The stunt with the truck
  • The disguises
  • There was actual detective work, or hints of it
  • The backup story
  • So far nothing too major seems to have been overwritten.

Things I didn't like

  • Still not a fan of the Red Hood being changed so dramatically. I think it takes a lot away from the Joker origin story.
  • Not real a fan of the sinister Uncle Philip arc
  • Not pleased how fast things have been sped up, but whatever.
  • Batman giving the finger

I liked the opening issue more than Court of owls and far, far more than DOTF. I'm actually expecting the next one to be decent.

#2 Posted by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

I liked it. I liked the nod to bob kane in it. I liked the tech they showed off with his boots. I liked the relationship between bruce and Alfred, I don't know how I felt about the first two pages the suit remnded me of wolverine and the dirtbike??? I may fall in love with it lter but for now im a little nervous. Im excited because I think we are gonna see a lot more detective/super h2h combatant. and I justr love greg capullo's art

#3 Posted by bigtewell (749 posts) - - Show Bio

well even tho ive disliked most batman stories of the past few years to the point i dropped it i was surprised i liked this one. i mean actual detective work!!!!!!!!!!!! ever since the dark knight movies i thought they were done with him being worlds greatest detective and instead having him be worlds greatest question asker. art was fantastic altho im not ecstatic on new look and writing was decent. over all its a 6 outa 10 for me which is good since dotf and court of owls only got a 3 on my scale

#4 Edited by MasterDetective (833 posts) - - Show Bio

@bigtewell said:

well even tho ive disliked most batman stories of the past few years to the point i dropped it i was surprised i liked this one. i mean actual detective work!!!!!!!!!!!! ever since the dark knight movies i thought they were done with him being worlds greatest detective and instead having him be worlds greatest question asker. art was fantastic altho im not ecstatic on new look and writing was decent. over all its a 6 outa 10 for me which is good since dotf and court of owls only got a 3 on my scale

there was pretty much detective work in the past new 52 Batman issues (notably 'court of owls' ones)

And by the way, I have seen absolutely no detective work in Batman#21

#5 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Edited by InnerVenom123 (29501 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: what Bob Kane nod?

He's talking about the Kane family existing.

They've always existed.

#7 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: Can you send me a message to my inbox explaining the changes please? I have yet to purchase it.

#8 Edited by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

there was pretty much detective work in the past new 52 Batman issues (notably 'court of owls' ones)

There really wasn't. One of the more disappointing aspects of Snyders run.

#9 Posted by Humanoid (132 posts) - - Show Bio

Riddler taking on the Detective. So excited.

#10 Posted by MasterDetective (833 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@masterdetective said:

there was pretty much detective work in the past new 52 Batman issues (notably 'court of owls' ones)

There really wasn't. One of the more disappointing aspects of Snyders run.

You must be kidding me. Snyder's introduction of detective feats is the reason I like Snyder. We see Batman investigating on the crime scenes, interrogating people and deducing who the real culprit is based on all the clues. If this is not detective work than I don't know what is.

And please tell me where the hell have you seen any detective work in the new issue, I have seen none at all.

#11 Posted by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Edited by havoc1201 (514 posts) - - Show Bio

i really liked the issue and i like how he keeps bruce wayne dead and says he is not back for that....all in all i think this is going to be a great origin that will last just as long as year one

#13 Posted by entropy_aegis (15319 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@masterdetective said:

there was pretty much detective work in the past new 52 Batman issues (notably 'court of owls' ones)

There really wasn't. One of the more disappointing aspects of Snyders run.

You must be kidding me. Snyder's introduction of detective feats is the reason I like Snyder. We see Batman investigating on the crime scenes, interrogating people and deducing who the real culprit is based on all the clues. If this is not detective work than I don't know what is.

And please tell me where the hell have you seen any detective work in the new issue, I have seen none at all.

Since when did interrogating someone or looking at a crime scene equal detective work? Snyder's Batman did detective work only in the first 3 issues of his run.

#14 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

It was a Great Issue. I liked how this Bruce is much different from the one we see in the other bat-books. Im really excited to see what he is going to do with the riddler. Also did you guys notice that the symbol on bruce's hat was the robin symbol? Does hint that Snyder might establish Robins origin as well?

#15 Edited by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

You must be kidding me. Snyder's introduction of detective feats is the reason I like Snyder. We see Batman investigating on the crime scenes, interrogating people and deducing who the real culprit is based on all the clues. If this is not detective work than I don't know what is.

And please tell me where the hell have you seen any detective work in the new issue, I have seen none at all.

I must be kidding you? You must be kidding me! What do you think detective work is?

Snyder started his run on Batman in the N52 with the worlds greatest detective essentially dismissing the possibility of the court existing because of an investigation he did as a kid, before he had even learned how to be a detective. Ridiculous. The closest thing he did to detective work was having a hunch that there may be something on the hidden 13th floor in the Wayne owned buildings, and happening to be right.

Snyder's Batman seems closer to the Nolan interpretation than I would like. Less of a detective and more of a physical brute.

As for detective aspects in issue 21, the disguises, going undercover, investigating the leader and finding ways to track him...that's the most detective work I've seen in any Batman issue in the N52 so far.

Since when did interrogating someone or looking at a crime scene equal detective work? Snyder's Batman did detective work only in the first 3 issues of his run.

Exactly.

#16 Posted by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

i really liked the issue and i like how he keeps bruce wayne dead and says he is not back for that....all in all i think this is going to be a great origin that will last just as long as year one

On that I disagree strongly. Year one is a fantastic origin as well as a re-imagining of the character. Zero year is not a re-imagining, it's simply a retcon of the details. Aside from that, I don't believe Snyder has what it takes to write a story that will last that long. 30 years from now Year One will still be talked about, although it won't be as significant. Zero Year will likely be forgotten by then.

#17 Edited by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio
@muyjingo said:

@masterdetective said:

there was pretty much detective work in the past new 52 Batman issues (notably 'court of owls' ones)

There really wasn't. One of the more disappointing aspects of Snyders run.

did u read court of owls? how he deduced who was behind the whole thing? how he investigated the crime scene in the first issue? how he analyzed the corps using a hologram? how he figured out who the cuilprit was and where he'd be by using random buts of info from throughout the arc (very Sherlock-esque)? how he analyzed the smell in the air and found the message prophesying bruce waynes death? how he figured out how dick's dna got under the fingernails of the first victim. there has been plenty of detective work.

#18 Posted by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:
@muyjingo said:

@masterdetective said:

there was pretty much detective work in the past new 52 Batman issues (notably 'court of owls' ones)

There really wasn't. One of the more disappointing aspects of Snyders run.

did u read court of owls? how he deduced who was behind the whole thing? how he investigated the crime scene in the first issue? how he analyzed the corps using a hologram? how he figured out who the cuilprit was and where he'd be by using random buts of info from throughout the arc (very Sherlock-esque)? how he analyzed the smell in the air and found the message prophesying bruce waynes death? how he figured out how dick's dna got under the fingernails of the first victim. there has been plenty of detective work.

What you described mostly wasn't detective work. Hint:detective work requires investigation.

#19 Posted by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis:

@muyjingo said:

@masterdetective said:

You must be kidding me. Snyder's introduction of detective feats is the reason I like Snyder. We see Batman investigating on the crime scenes, interrogating people and deducing who the real culprit is based on all the clues. If this is not detective work than I don't know what is.

And please tell me where the hell have you seen any detective work in the new issue, I have seen none at all.

I must be kidding you? You must be kidding me! What do you think detective work is?

Snyder started his run on Batman in the N52 with the worlds greatest detective essentially dismissing the possibility of the court existing because of an investigation he did as a kid, before he had even learned how to be a detective. Ridiculous. The closest thing he did to detective work was having a hunch that there may be something on the hidden 13th floor in the Wayne owned buildings, and happening to be right.

Snyder's Batman seems closer to the Nolan interpretation than I would like. Less of a detective and more of a physical brute.

As for detective aspects in issue 21, the disguises, going undercover, investigating the leader and finding ways to track him...that's the most detective work I've seen in any Batman issue in the N52 so far.

@entropy_aegis said:

Since when did interrogating someone or looking at a crime scene equal detective work? Snyder's Batman did detective work only in the first 3 issues of his run.

Exactly.

#20 Posted by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: Those scans are unreadable. I also think it's funny you had them ready so fast.

Tell me the relevant issues you think show detective work and I will review them at home, and form a proper argument.

#21 Posted by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@sog7dc said:
@muyjingo said:

@masterdetective said:

there was pretty much detective work in the past new 52 Batman issues (notably 'court of owls' ones)

There really wasn't. One of the more disappointing aspects of Snyders run.

did u read court of owls? how he deduced who was behind the whole thing? how he investigated the crime scene in the first issue? how he analyzed the corps using a hologram? how he figured out who the cuilprit was and where he'd be by using random buts of info from throughout the arc (very Sherlock-esque)? how he analyzed the smell in the air and found the message prophesying bruce waynes death? how he figured out how dick's dna got under the fingernails of the first victim. there has been plenty of detective work.

What you described mostly wasn't detective work. Hint:detective work requires investigation.

analyzing a corpse isn't investigation? remembering key details of conversations and piecing them together to arrive to an educated conclusion isn't investigation? literally investigating the first crime scene in the series and deducing where the throwing knives came from isn't investigation? interrogating possible witnesses and gathering information key to the investigation isn't investigating? searching the home bases of the talons for clues and evidence isn't investigation? analyzing and performing an autopsy on a skeleton isn't investigation? figuring out where he was in the city by the taste of water thereby finding where the court executes its victims isn't investigation? getting information from mr freeze about the regenerative abilities the talons have isn't investigation? he actually investigated the murder scene where Lincoln tricked the rest of the court into drinking poison. he deduced who Lincoln was, where he was, why he was doing what he was doing and who Lincoln thinks he is all by remembering key details he learned through his investigation. there was plenty of investigation in court of owls and I don't even think I covered it all.

#22 Posted by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

all the things I just listed I listed while actually going through each individual issue. but to give youthe numbers:

issue 1csi

issue 2 autopsy and murder weapon analysis

issue 3 interrogation of the whisper gang and every conversation with Lincoln march is part of the investigation as far as im concerned and he investigated the bases of the talons

issue 4 another autopsy on Dick's grandfather's corpse. investigated more talon bases until he got captured

issue 5 im not just going through every issue to be a jerk. im looing through each of them and listing the ones that have detective work but an way in issue 5 he figured out where the talons held their executions by tasting the water. and this is a key part of the investigation because he now knows exactly where they are

issue 6 doesn't really have any detective work as it just moves the story forward

issue 7 doesn't really have any either because its the assault on wayne manor

issue 8 he investigates Lincoln march's crime scene and the piece of paper Lincoln gives him a "message for bruce wayne"

issue 9 doesn't have any notable detective work

issue 10 he investigates the murder scene where licoln tricks the other owls to drink poison and he realizes everything by looing at hi mothers picture and reaing the message given to him by Lincoln

issue 11 is just a fight

issue 12 is pretty much a filler issue and 13 starts DOTF. and ill go through those as well if u want me to

#23 Posted by MasterDetective (833 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@muyjingo said:

@sog7dc said:
@muyjingo said:

@masterdetective said:

there was pretty much detective work in the past new 52 Batman issues (notably 'court of owls' ones)

There really wasn't. One of the more disappointing aspects of Snyders run.

did u read court of owls? how he deduced who was behind the whole thing? how he investigated the crime scene in the first issue? how he analyzed the corps using a hologram? how he figured out who the cuilprit was and where he'd be by using random buts of info from throughout the arc (very Sherlock-esque)? how he analyzed the smell in the air and found the message prophesying bruce waynes death? how he figured out how dick's dna got under the fingernails of the first victim. there has been plenty of detective work.

What you described mostly wasn't detective work. Hint:detective work requires investigation.

analyzing a corpse isn't investigation? remembering key details of conversations and piecing them together to arrive to an educated conclusion isn't investigation? literally investigating the first crime scene in the series and deducing where the throwing knives came from isn't investigation? interrogating possible witnesses and gathering information key to the investigation isn't investigating? searching the home bases of the talons for clues and evidence isn't investigation? analyzing and performing an autopsy on a skeleton isn't investigation? figuring out where he was in the city by the taste of water thereby finding where the court executes its victims isn't investigation? getting information from mr freeze about the regenerative abilities the talons have isn't investigation? he actually investigated the murder scene where Lincoln tricked the rest of the court into drinking poison. he deduced who Lincoln was, where he was, why he was doing what he was doing and who Lincoln thinks he is all by remembering key details he learned through his investigation. there was plenty of investigation in court of owls and I don't even think I covered it all.

Finally someone with some senses, thank you.

#24 Posted by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@masterdetective:

I remember applauding Snyder for displaying batmans detective skills and pleading for more h2h feats lol im on the polar opposite side of the argument. I think batman needs to be shown knocking a few heads

#25 Posted by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

analyzing a corpse isn't investigation? remembering key details of conversations and piecing them together to arrive to an educated conclusion isn't investigation? literally investigating the first crime scene in the series and deducing where the throwing knives came from isn't investigation? interrogating possible witnesses and gathering information key to the investigation isn't investigating? searching the home bases of the talons for clues and evidence isn't investigation? analyzing and performing an autopsy on a skeleton isn't investigation? figuring out where he was in the city by the taste of water thereby finding where the court executes its victims isn't investigation? getting information from mr freeze about the regenerative abilities the talons have isn't investigation? he actually investigated the murder scene where Lincoln tricked the rest of the court into drinking poison. he deduced who Lincoln was, where he was, why he was doing what he was doing and who Lincoln thinks he is all by remembering key details he learned through his investigation. there was plenty of investigation in court of owls and I don't even think I covered it all.

You've basically taken your previous paragraph and instead of asking if it isn't detective work, you're now asking if it isn't investigation..... The answer hasn't changed, I'll break it down for you.

@sog7dc said:

issue 1csi

Yeah, this was close...but no, it wasn't investigation by itself. What it boils down to is that he smelt something, recognized the smell and lit it on fire to show the message. Impressive, sure, but not detective work in it's own right.

issue 2 autopsy and murder weapon analysis

I wasn't impressed with his, as it was mainly the computer telling him stuff. I bet you think Batman in TDK was a detective too, when he had the computer analyze evidence...

Besides, it was 2 pages out of 30. Far more action than detective work so far....

issue 3 interrogation of the whisper gang and every conversation with Lincoln march is part of the investigation as far as im concerned and he investigated the bases of the talons

You can be concerned all you like, doesn't make it so. I wouldn't say this issues contained any detective work. What in the world makes you think his conversation with Lincoln March is an investigation? That's really stretching things...

issue 4 another autopsy on Dick's grandfather's corpse. investigated more talon bases until he got captured

"Computer, analyze". Yes, what a fine example of detective work....

issue 5 im not just going through every issue to be a jerk. im looing through each of them and listing the ones that have detective work but an way in issue 5 he figured out where the talons held their executions by tasting the water. and this is a key part of the investigation because he now knows exactly where they are

Oh, I don't think you're being a jerk. You're putting effort into this to make an argument that you are passionate about. I strongly disagree with you, but I appreciate your perspective.

Err, he tastes water, but I don't see him deducing anything from it. All he does is mutter about drinking too much. FWIW I think this is the worst issue of the New52, aside from maybe the pointless Harper Row issue.

issue 6 doesn't really have any detective work as it just moves the story forward

Yup

issue 7 doesn't really have any either because its the assault on wayne manor

Yup

issue 8 he investigates Lincoln march's crime scene and the piece of paper Lincoln gives him a "message for bruce wayne"

Err, no, issue 8 is the assault on Wayne Manor.

issue 9 doesn't have any notable detective work

I'm guess you meant this issue when you talked about Issue 8. He goes to talk to Lincoln....that isn't being a detective. He also throws away the paper Lincoln gave him....what kind of detective discards evidence?

issue 10 he investigates the murder scene where licoln tricks the other owls to drink poison and he realizes everything by looing at hi mothers picture and reaing the message given to him by Lincoln

So you notice he shows up at the owls base, because Lincoln gave him the address. He didn't solve anything, he didn't uncover it through detective work....the answer was literally handed to him.

issue 11 is just a fight

Yup

issue 12 is pretty much a filler issue

Yup

and 13 starts DOTF. and ill go through those as well if u want me to

No need, thanks though.

Out of the 12 issues you listed, 4 at the very most have detective work, and generally only 1 or 2 pages, half of which is the computer doing the work and giving him an answer.

Keeping in mind he throws away evidence, didn't want to investigate because he did so as a kid, had the answer handed to him and then was unable to figure out if Lincoln was his brother or not. All that advanced technology in the early issues and he can't even do a simple DNA test?

Most of Snyder's run has been action, a Batman who beats and interrogates, very phsyically impressive, but nothing to show him as the worlds greatest detective.

@sog7dc said:

I remember applauding Snyder for displaying batmans detective skills and pleading for more h2h feats lol im on the polar opposite side of the argument. I think batman needs to be shown knocking a few heads

See, that's just odd. There series has more than enough combat....

#26 Edited by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

ok lets define Investigation:

in·ves·ti·ga·tion

in·ves·ti·ga·tion [in vèsti gáysh'n]

(

plural

in·ves·ti·ga·tions

)

n

examination: an examination or inquiry into something, especially a detailed one that is undertaken officially, or the act of undertaking an examination

now let me address your response

1.if you don't think issue 1 is investigation. then you are factually incorrect based on the definition of the word.

2. youre not giving him enough credit here. first off who do you think made the batcomputer and uploaded the information on it? autopsy is a huge part of detective work. something that batman clearly does in this issue.

3.ill address this in two parts part a: interrogation doesn't count as detective work to you? part b: his dialogue with Lincoln march gave him key clues and let him to his conclusion. from the first time they spoke at bruce's house to the last in lincolns office.

4. I remember seeing bruce look at and observe the skeleton before he said that. he was holding bones with gloves on and observing them.

5.i appreciate having a gentlemens disagreement. he tastes the water and(I don't have the issues in front of me anymore) says something to the effect of "I know where I am" or "im in the gallows"

6.i already addressed how I feel about the interactions between bruce and Lincoln. and he actually didn't throw it away. if you would recall that he was going towards the batcave with Alfred, looks t the picture of his mother, reads the letter "follow me down the rabbit hole?" and then goes off to the orphanage.

7. I think you may be getting your issues mixed up here. Lincoln never told him where this place was. bruce even stated that no one who didn't work there or who wasn't in the court had never been inside then he proceeded to intimidate the lady and dive off the building

8.again youre wrong in saying he threw it away. he didnt

#27 Posted by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@muyjingo:

ok lets define Investigation:

in·ves·ti·ga·tion

in·ves·ti·ga·tion [in vèsti gáysh'n]

(

plural

in·ves·ti·ga·tions

)

n

examination: an examination or inquiry into something, especially a detailed one that is undertaken officially, or the act of undertaking an examination


If you're going to define investigation, you might want to, you know, define investigation.

I don't know what you think that proves. We both understand the word, we just disagree about what he was doing.

I think you know yu're on thin ice since you are trying to make this a debate about semantics and not about the character.

Anyhoo.

1.if you don't think issue 1 is investigation. then you are factually incorrect based on the definition of the word.

No, I'm not.

Miriam Webster definies investigate as: to observe or study by close examination and systematic inquiry

Princeton Wordnet (what Google uses) defines investigate as: Carry out a systematic or formal inquiry to discover and examine the facts of (an incident, allegation, etc.) so as to establish the truth.

So tell me, how was Batman smelling linseed oil and lighting it on fire part of a systematic inquiry?

2. youre not giving him enough credit here. first off who do you think made the batcomputer and uploaded the information on it? autopsy is a huge part of detective work. something that batman clearly does in this issue.

I'm not giving him enough credit? I'm sorry, I just don't find Batman saying "computer, analyze" as impressive as you do. But, I feel like I'm nitpicking here. I'll concede this point, as it doesn't change a damn thing.

3.ill address this in two parts part a: interrogation doesn't count as detective work to you? part b: his dialogue with Lincoln march gave him key clues and let him to his conclusion. from the first time they spoke at bruce's house to the last in lincolns office.

Why are you bouncing my question to you back on to me?

His dialogue with Lincoln was incidental, he wasn't talking with Lincoln to gather facts and information. He was talking to Lincoln as a friend/acquaintance/potential partner, not as a detective.

If I start talking to someone at the pub who happens to tell me some details of a heist they did, I didn't investigate anything...I just received information.

4. I remember seeing bruce look at and observe the skeleton before he said that. he was holding bones with gloves on and observing them.

Yes, you're right. He was holding the bone up to the computer while he asked the computer to analyze it. If he did anything more than that, it should have shown it.

5.i appreciate having a gentlemens disagreement. he tastes the water and(I don't have the issues in front of me anymore) says something to the effect of "I know where I am" or "im in the gallows"

Maybe you could provide a page number, as I don't see that when reading the issue.

6.i already addressed how I feel about the interactions between bruce and Lincoln. and he actually didn't throw it away. if you would recall that he was going towards the batcave with Alfred, looks t the picture of his mother, reads the letter "follow me down the rabbit hole?" and then goes off to the orphanage.

Err....what? The last scene in issue 9 is of him crumpling the paper....

7. I think you may be getting your issues mixed up here. Lincoln never told him where this place was. bruce even stated that no one who didn't work there or who wasn't in the court had never been inside then he proceeded to intimidate the lady and dive off the building

What makes you think I'm getting anything mixed up? You seem to have an odd interpretation is all.

Lincoln handed him the slip of paper, immediately after Batman said he knows where they live. It also makes sense since Lincoln wanted to lure Batman there.

Maybe you need to re read the issue?

8.again you're wrong in saying he threw it away. he didn't

To me, it is implied that he did. Perhaps you can show some evidence for why you feel he didn't?

#28 Posted by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@sog7dc said:

@muyjingo:

ok lets define Investigation:

in·ves·ti·ga·tion

in·ves·ti·ga·tion [in vèsti gáysh'n]

(

plural

in·ves·ti·ga·tions

)

n

examination: an examination or inquiry into something, especially a detailed one that is undertaken officially, or the act of undertaking an examination


If you're going to define investigation, you might want to, you know, define investigation.

I don't know what you think that proves. We both understand the word, we just disagree about what he was doing.

I think you know yu're on thin ice since you are trying to make this a debate about semantics and not about the character.

Anyhoo.

1.if you don't think issue 1 is investigation. then you are factually incorrect based on the definition of the word.

No, I'm not.

Miriam Webster definies investigate as: to observe or study by close examination and systematic inquiry

Princeton Wordnet (what Google uses) defines investigate as: Carry out a systematic or formal inquiry to discover and examine the facts of (an incident, allegation, etc.) so as to establish the truth.

So tell me, how was Batman smelling linseed oil and lighting it on fire part of a systematic inquiry?

2. youre not giving him enough credit here. first off who do you think made the batcomputer and uploaded the information on it? autopsy is a huge part of detective work. something that batman clearly does in this issue.

I'm not giving him enough credit? I'm sorry, I just don't find Batman saying "computer, analyze" as impressive as you do. But, I feel like I'm nitpicking here. I'll concede this point, as it doesn't change a damn thing.

3.ill address this in two parts part a: interrogation doesn't count as detective work to you? part b: his dialogue with Lincoln march gave him key clues and let him to his conclusion. from the first time they spoke at bruce's house to the last in lincolns office.

Why are you bouncing my question to you back on to me?

His dialogue with Lincoln was incidental, he wasn't talking with Lincoln to gather facts and information. He was talking to Lincoln as a friend/acquaintance/potential partner, not as a detective.

If I start talking to someone at the pub who happens to tell me some details of a heist they did, I didn't investigate anything...I just received information.

4. I remember seeing bruce look at and observe the skeleton before he said that. he was holding bones with gloves on and observing them.

Yes, you're right. He was holding the bone up to the computer while he asked the computer to analyze it. If he did anything more than that, it should have shown it.

5.i appreciate having a gentlemens disagreement. he tastes the water and(I don't have the issues in front of me anymore) says something to the effect of "I know where I am" or "im in the gallows"

Maybe you could provide a page number, as I don't see that when reading the issue.

6.i already addressed how I feel about the interactions between bruce and Lincoln. and he actually didn't throw it away. if you would recall that he was going towards the batcave with Alfred, looks t the picture of his mother, reads the letter "follow me down the rabbit hole?" and then goes off to the orphanage.

Err....what? The last scene in issue 9 is of him crumpling the paper....

7. I think you may be getting your issues mixed up here. Lincoln never told him where this place was. bruce even stated that no one who didn't work there or who wasn't in the court had never been inside then he proceeded to intimidate the lady and dive off the building

What makes you think I'm getting anything mixed up? You seem to have an odd interpretation is all.

Lincoln handed him the slip of paper, immediately after Batman said he knows where they live. It also makes sense since Lincoln wanted to lure Batman there.

Maybe you need to re read the issue?

8.again you're wrong in saying he threw it away. he didn't

To me, it is implied that he did. Perhaps you can show some evidence for why you feel he didn't?

1. I copy and pasted the definition from myriam Webster lbs

2. im not arguing semantics im only responding to what you have said to me in kind.you totally and completely ignored batman examining the corpse on the scene

3. ok ill concede the part about his conversations with Lincoln. but you still haven't addressed the fact that he interrogated a gang head in the subway

4. we just disagree here about what bruce was doing

5.

6. and right before he goes the orphanage to fight Lincoln he reads it

7.ill have to address this later. because i am about to go workout but rest assured I will get the books and go through them again and respond to this

8. I don't know the page number by heart....when I get the books back in front of me ill post where it can be found

#29 Posted by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

im curious what do you want to see batman do that you would count as detective work

#30 Posted by Z3RO180 (6549 posts) - - Show Bio

I got It today and I never buy single issues of batman and was going to wait for the trade to come out but dammit Snyder now I bout issue 1 of zero year and now I'm hooked....I'm so sorry wallet please forgive me in the months to come.

#31 Posted by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

This might be an unreasonable request....but is it at all possible for you not to number your replies? I'm finding it really confusing to go back and try to see which point you're replying to.

1. I copy and pasted the definition from myriam Webster lbs

Then you should have pasted the same thing I did, except that isn't anywhere in your post.

2. im not arguing semantics im only responding to what you have said to me in kind.you totally and completely ignored batman examining the corpse on the scene

This is 2 points in one.

Arguing about what the word investigation means is by definition arguing semantics.

You're right, I didn't address him examining the corpse on the scene. Because, well, he didn't.

He looks at the corpse while Bullock tells him about it, then starts looking at the knives. Then sets the oil on fire.

3. ok ill concede the part about his conversations with Lincoln. but you still haven't addressed the fact that he interrogated a gang head in the subway

Cool.

As for the interrogating the guy in the subway? That was cool and all, but I don't know that I would generally consider it detective work.

But hey, I'm happy to concede that point as well. As before, it changes nothing.

4. we just disagree here about what bruce was doing

Well yeah, except it isn't a case where we agree to disagree.

The panels only show him having the computer analyze stuff, nothing else. If you want to assume he was doing something more than that, that's fine, but that's your personal interpretation. It isn't supported by what we see.

6. and right before he goes the orphanage to fight Lincoln he reads it

Errrrrrrr, no. That's a different note, left because he knew Batman would look there.

Otherwise, are you saying Batman stored the note Lincoln gave him in the drawer where Lincolns corpse was meant to be?

7.ill have to address this later. because i am about to go workout but rest assured I will get the books and go through them again and respond to this

8. I don't know the page number by heart....when I get the books back in front of me ill post where it can be found

Cool.

#32 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved it. Especially the driving sequence.

#33 Edited by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

ok here I go, issue by issue this may be a long post so bear with me.

in issue 1 he arrives to the crime scene he observes the vistims body and says "antique throwing knives, professional grade. the grooves are filled with mercury for steadier flight." he then asks to take one to further analyze it. he then notices skin underneath the victims fingernails and says "Run DNA Analyisis. looks like skin beneath the victim's fingernails, possibly the killer's"

in issue 2 he uses the hologram to examine a corpse. while he's looking at the corpse he says "Here. Theres extensive scar tissue around the ribs and abdomen...calcification at his brow, side of his skull." then after gordan says something about the john doe being a fighter in his glory days bruce says "maybe. but he's got more callous material around his palms and wrists than his knuckles. defensive scarring." bruce then makes another observation "There are scars along his forearms. common injuries from swordplay." (all of these so far have been without the aid of the computer btw)

in issue 3 he investigates the homes of the talons. I don't think it can be argued that these 6 pages are detective work

in issue 4 I made a mistake. it was alan waynes skeleton he examined. yes with the help of the computer but I refuse to believe he's standing there google searching stuff. youre right he says "computer analyze" but if it were you or me we wouldn't have the knowledge that bruce has and wouldn't be able to do anything with the info the computer spits out... but I think we should just agree to disagree. and at the end of the issue he attempts to investigate another talons home base but he is ambushed and abducted.

in issue 5 I was wrong. no detective work here

in issue 6 he tasted the water and recognized the minerals. he says ""...we're near the river. and I know the base of your big ugly fountain... its *koff* white marble. not construction marble like the rest of this place which makes it softer, more vulnerable to say...explosions..." he then uses potassium chlorate to blow a hole in the floor.

in issue 7 there is a two page spread where he's talking with nightwing . I don't want to copy all that dialogue but its definitely the results of his deducing capabilities and his detective acumen

in issue 8 it was the assault

in issue 9 theres no detective work

in issue 10 bruce uses his own ingenuity and deductive powers to extrapolate the address where the court meets and then that's where he finds the dead bodies. next he looks at the picture and then it seems as though he realizes its Lincoln behind the whole thing. you were right. he goes back to lincolns office and finds the "follow me down the rabbit hole?" note.

then issue 11 is a fight then the filler and so on and so forth. so I concede that I made some errors in my assessment but the facts still remain that there has been more detective work than you gave Snyder credit for. and we haven't even gotten in to DOTF

#34 Posted by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: You already went issue by issue, and I gave a rebuttal to each point you made. I don't see the point in doing that again. In fact, the same points I made are still valid, so go over them again if you like....

I'm not arguing that there was no detective work in the story, just that it was very little. There was predominate focus on action rather than anything intellectual.

There are really only 4 instances of what could be considered detective work, and half the time it's done by the computer.

Combined with things like throwing away the note, refusing to investigate because he did so when he was a kid, having the answers literally handed to him, yeah, I didn't think there was much of a detective aspect.

I'ts just a shame I think, since I prefer an intellectual batman over a physical batman, but Snyder seems to disagree.

#35 Posted by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: Did you read through my last post? Or just c that I went issue by issue and dismiss it. If you don't think those things are detective work then you're just wrong

#36 Posted by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: I read your post. It's just that you are repeating yourself. Stating something twice doesn't make it right.

If I were to reply to each of your points, I would just be repeating myself.

I've addressed your points, but you have yet to address in any meaningful way except stating I'm wrong...

#37 Posted by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: You're wrong because of the definitions of the word detective. All the things listed are detective work

#38 Edited by MuyJingo (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: lol! There you go again, simply telling me I'm wrong and not bothering to address any of the points I made.

So much for you're "gentleman's disagreement".

You can focus on semantics and want me to be wrong all you want. Doesn't make it so.

I'm just going to quote myself here, since repeating myself seems to make the most sense. I won't be continuing this discussion unless you actually make an argument, instead of just telling me I'm wrong.

@muyjingo said:

Out of the 12 issues you listed, 4 at the very most have detective work, and generally only 1 or 2 pages, half of which is the computer doing the work and giving him an answer.

Keeping in mind he throws away evidence, didn't want to investigate because he did so as a kid, had the answer handed to him and then was unable to figure out if Lincoln was his brother or not. All that advanced technology in the early issues and he can't even do a simple DNA test?

Most of Snyder's run has been action, a Batman who beats and interrogates, very physically impressive, but nothing to show him as the worlds greatest detective.

and

@muyjingo said:

I'm not arguing that there was no detective work in the story, just that it was very little. There was predominate focus on action rather than anything intellectual.

#39 Posted by SOG7dc (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: I already responded by telling you how the things you say rent detective work in fact actually are detective work. But you refuse to acknowldge that and then paint me to be the one not listening. My argument is based on facts while yours is bases on your own ideas of why is and isn't detective work

#40 Posted by Al_capOWN (534 posts) - - Show Bio

WTF, why are guys "debating" over all the other batman issues, the OP is talking and asking about the new batman, issue 21. Who cares if snyders run is detective poor, who cares if batman is beating up guys up close or playing detective, bottom line is batman's a badass.

Now back to the main topic. I relly enjoyed issue 21. Being new to the comic world I feel like I will get to learn more about this red hood gang. I've heard about them before, all the pre52 stuff, but Im really looking forward to what snyder does with it in the new 52.

#41 Posted by Dhor (282 posts) - - Show Bio

after i saw bruce giving the finger to the red hood gang i couldn`t stop laugfhing. I for one loved it. it showes that Bruce still had emotions and wasn`t as conld as when he becomes Batman

#42 Posted by Spaced_Boy (39 posts) - - Show Bio
@dhor said:

after i saw bruce giving the finger to the red hood gang i couldn`t stop laugfhing. I for one loved it. it showes that Bruce still had emotions and wasn`t as conld as when he becomes Batman

Agreed :) it's fun to read a less emotionally battered Bruce. We don't get to see enough of his humanity. It feels fresh and fun and is making me care for him even more