Batman 18-ARE YOU F***ING KIDDING ME ? (spoilers)

@John Valentine said:

@danhimself said:

@John Valentine said:

@danhimself said:

I think it's funny that most of the stuff being said about Harper right now is the same stuff people were saying about Damian a few years ago

Nah, bro.

If you're saying that it's not the same stuff then you should look back through the forums around the time of his first appearance

I'm saying that Damian was instantly a more appealing character to me. Harper just seems like any half-developed self-righteous side-kick wannabe to me.

well then you're one of the minority.....most people hated Damian when he was first introduced

@War Killer said:

I do agree that having her suddenly in a random suit, fighting crime alongside Batman is a bit random, but I don't think it's fair to the character to judge her based off a cover.

It's also in Batman 18. Her training has no build-up, we just... learn about it. And there she goes, catsuit and all, jumping across rooftops.

You know what pisses me off? It's too soon to get a new sidekick.

You know what pisses me off? When a character who has existed for over a year gets a development issue and people freak out and trash her because of things that have nothing to do with her specifically.

Harper Row is a great character in my opinion, but her becoming Robin is kind of a bad decision in my opinion.

@danhimself said:

@John Valentine said:

@danhimself said:

@John Valentine said:

@danhimself said:

I think it's funny that most of the stuff being said about Harper right now is the same stuff people were saying about Damian a few years ago

Nah, bro.

If you're saying that it's not the same stuff then you should look back through the forums around the time of his first appearance

I'm saying that Damian was instantly a more appealing character to me. Harper just seems like any half-developed self-righteous side-kick wannabe to me.

well then you're one of the minority.....most people hated Damian when he was first introduced

I actually question that, some people were vocal about their dislike but I wouldn't say the majority hated him. Same goes for Jason Todd back in the day too. The voting to kill him off was close

Um, Harper's pretty awesome, though?

@akbogert said:

You know what pisses me off? When a character who has existed for over a year gets a development issue and people freak out and trash her because of things that have nothing to do with her specifically.

Thaaaaaaaaaaaank you.

@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek said:

Harper Row is a great character in my opinion, but her becoming Robin is kind of a bad decision in my opinion.

And this I agree with, as well.

@Ellie_Knightfall: Much obliged. As for the decision's quality, there's plenty of time to see whether they can sell it. After all, they haven't even officially given her the title yet, and there are other support roles she could take that don't begin with an "R." I don't expect Bruce to go from "this is over" to "you can take the name I used for my late son" in a matter of an issue or two.

@War Killer: Yes.

@akbogert: One of the many things about the death of Damian that pisses me off is the fact that there is no logical way to continue the Robin legacy past it, imo. From the emotional trauma aspect of it for Batman to the sheer risk aspect of it for the Robins.

I get a Tim Drake/Stephanie Brown vibe from her, though. She's very stubborn, very intellectual and she's outright said that there's no way she's gonna stop it. I could see Batman coming around and eventually taking her under his wing (if they give her the name Robin, heads will roll) just to save her from herself, but I feel that's a rehash of what's been done.

It's times like this that it's cemented first of all, how disjointed DC continuity is and second of all, how much Oracle's presence is missed. I'd have loved to see a Harper/Oracle rapport similar to the Misfit/Oracle rapport.

@Ellie_Knightfall said:

@akbogert: One of the many things about the death of Damian that pisses me off is the fact that there is no logical way to continue the Robin legacy past it, imo. From the emotional trauma aspect of it for Batman to the sheer risk aspect of it for the Robins.

I would have liked to see Beryl become a new Robin for a brief time. I mean she basically already was a Robin, and she just lost Knight.

I say "would have liked" because I doubt it'll happen. But you never know.

So everyone seems, to overreact. So I'll try to stay just short of that. I like Harper, loved Damien. Yes it is possible to like both. I am really disappointed with making her able run around and fight> I work out repeatedly all the time, and have been involved with mma. I'm sorry it doesn't work that easily. You can't suddenly just be a top of the line fighter. Stop insulting my intelligence, and work ethic. It would take years. Still an interesting character.

@Ellie_Knightfall: One thing that people tend to forget is that nothing that's ever happened before the New 52 ever technically happened. It was a reboot, right? So while from a reader's perspective, Harper may be just repeating what Tim did, from a continuity standpoint she's taking his place, she's the version of that story in the New DC Universe. One review I read earlier drew a lot of great comparisons between Harper and Tim, and I think the parallels are intentional. As a new reader -- I've never read pre-N52 stuff -- this is a fantastic turn of events and it feels very coherent. I don't get the same déja vu as the old-timers, so maybe that would put me off a bit? But I recognize it as "new" insomuch as it hasn't happened before in this continuity.

I think it comes down to the perspective you choose to have. If you view New 52 as a continuation of older stuff, then yeah, this may seem like a rehash of old ideas. But if you view it as a proper reboot, if you let go of the past, then you can see it instead as a fresh twist on an old character. It's the old Tim's spirit, reshelled as a precocious teenage girl who's more likely to appeal to the same demographic Tim did when he entered the scene. Harper represents young readers of today pretty well -- and a Robin character is always going to be a focal point for people of that age, even if all ages should be able to appreciate him/her.

Anyhow, based on what I've seen of Oracle in the Arkham games, I'd agree that someone who serves that function is a much-needed element. Just recognize that the universe is young, so it may take time (perhaps years) before things start to run as smoothly and satisfactorily as they were in the version of the universe that had existed for decades, rather than six or seven years.

Everyone should calm down. She's not going to be Robin. I would be seriously surprised if Scott did that. She's a cool character so far so just go with it and see where it ends up. She'll probably have a new title or be Oracle or something.

i want the joker to reappear and cripple her so she can be oracle

@akbogert said:

Also, the mainline Batman book has already been established to be going back to his origins as of June, and lasting for almost a year's worth of issues. I don't think you need to worry about anything current factoring into that.

My thoughts exactly. While the solicits suggest Harper Rowe being a larger player in the Batbooks for the foreseeable future, she's Scott Snyder's baby, and I don't see him making her Robin between now and issue 21, nor do I see Snyder letting some other writer make her Robin. If she will indeed become Robin at all, it won't likely be for more than a year, which in my eyes is more than enough grieving time for Damien.

And for the record, in case any of the naysayers are keeping a tally, Robin or not, I really like the character of Harper Rowe. I just really hope nobody kills her brother.

@TimeLordScience: Like I said, I don't see her being Oracle, not an Oracle like we've come to know. Babs sat back from afar because she didn't have a choice. There's no way Harper would accept a position like that, no way she could watch Bruce or any of the other family members getting beat up or monitoring over the radio and not hop out the window and go try to help them.

They may give her a different name, but as of right now I think Robin definitely makes the most sense; I wouldn't at all be surprised if Snyder did that.

@nappystr8: I don't think you have to worry. As cynical as this may sound, there's no way DC would let a gay character seeking his father's acceptance die.

@mhanuroth: lol man. That is brutal but necessary.

I think if steph or cass were already in the universe, things would be cool..er.

@Joygirl said:

@Shark_Repellent_Bat_Spray said:

I still don't understand why the majority of comic readers seem to hate Harper Row...

This. I love Harper so far.

I can't say I love her, it's far too soon to tell. However, I believe she is a character with potential, and I would not object to her being the next Robin.

@consolemaster001 said:

@inferiorego said:

Why continue to read something you hate?

I loved it up until now. I'll give my final judgement when 19 comes out

If you do decide to drop Batman, I'd pick it up when Batman Year Zero starts on issue #21.

I don't get why Layman is going to use her in Detective Comics, I just don't see any use for her except for being a Harold type character. I also have mixed feeling about issue 18. I sorta liked it, but hate the idea of Harper being Batman's sidekick. Even though this issue did make me like her a little bit, even though I hate to admit it.

We also probably won't get a darker Batman now, like we were hoping to see. We only got fragments of him acting more violent...

@spinningbirdcake said:

@Shark_Repellent_Bat_Spray said:

I still don't understand why the majority of comic readers seem to hate Harper Row...

It's fashionable. I've noticed, as I'm sure plenty have, that in the "geek world" people tend to exaggerate their admiration and contempt for things, be it comics, movies, games etc. It's incredibly annoying.

fancy

@danhimself said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

It's so awesome when untalented writers shoehorn their created characters down the reader's throat.

yeah this is nothing like when Morrison shoved Damian down our throats

You're right, it's not like that because Morrison is a genius and Snyder is a hack who rips off better writers, like Morrison.

And Damian was sooo shoved down the reader's throats. He starred in an arc, then was gone for around 12 issues, showed up now and then in another and was written in Batman and Robin, which was a partner-story And if you want to complain that Tim was "shoved aside", he got a new role as an independent crime fighter and his own comic series. Geez, how awful for him. And unlike Harper Row who is super-special awesome, Damian actually grew as a character and served a clear purpose.

Pick your battles. Going up against FTBB when it comes to Morrison and Batman is not one you will win.

@InnerVenom123 said:

@Ellie_Knightfall said:

@akbogert: One of the many things about the death of Damian that pisses me off is the fact that there is no logical way to continue the Robin legacy past it, imo. From the emotional trauma aspect of it for Batman to the sheer risk aspect of it for the Robins.

I would have liked to see Beryl become a new Robin for a brief time. I mean she basically already was a Robin, and she just lost Knight.

I say "would have liked" because I doubt it'll happen. But you never know.

THIS X100

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

And unlike Harper Row who is super-special awesome, Damian actually grew as a character and served a clear purpose.

To be fair, Harper hasn't had much time to grow as a character yet.

I'm relatively indifferent about Harper at the moment but she hasn't been bad. Writers creat new characters and try to get them involved with heroes all of the time. I don't think it's fair to condemn Snyder for Harper yet without first seeing what he does with her.

@SupBatz said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

And unlike Harper Row who is super-special awesome, Damian actually grew as a character and served a clear purpose.

To be fair, Harper hasn't had much time to grow as a character yet.

I'm relatively indifferent about Harper at the moment but she hasn't been bad. Writers creat new characters and try to get them involved with heroes all of the time. I don't think it's fair to condemn Snyder for Harper yet without first seeing what he does with her.

It's Scott Snyder. She's going to go through some grotesque ordeal, then defeat seemingly impossible odds, rescues an incompetent Batman, and then it will end with another rip off another better Bat story.

And CV will give it 5 stars because the reviews here are a joke.

@Ellie_Knightfall said:

Um, Harper's pretty awesome, though?

meh 50/50

She's unoriginal,bland and uninspired as Citizenbane correctly pointed out though surprisingly I DO like her somewhat.

@danhimself said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

It's so awesome when untalented writers shoehorn their created characters down the reader's throat.

yeah this is nothing like when Morrison shoved Damian down our throats

There is no similarity,when Damian was introduced no one knew or could've guessed that he was gonna be Robin,Tim was heavily featured early on in Morrisons run(Batman & Son,Batbane issue,Island of mister Mayhew arc,the issue where Jezebel discovers Bruce's identity,Resurrection of Ra's and RIP).

Harper on the other hand just 3 issues in total and she screams "replacement".

However I am confused as to how Snyder's gonna use her,after 2 issues he's starting Zero Year which is set in the past gonna last a year,how's he gonna build her up? or is this a job for Layman and Tomasi?

Still no Stephanie or Cassie /sigh.

With Batman Inc., I no longer see a reason to limit Batman's potential partners. You could have a book where every arc he takes on and trains a new partner. I would read that. That would be fine.

I do hope, however, that we don't see her become Robin. 1) Too many Robins were left over after reboot. If they were going to cut out all the Batgirls, they should have dropped some Robins, and 2) I would have a hard time buying that he'd be willing to replace Damian so fast.

@akbogert: I would bet on it that she'll never be Robin. Damian will return and resume the mantle. Otherwise there won't be another Robin. She may start teaming up with Batman more, but she'll be called something else.

To be fair...I think the move was a bit too soon by DC to depict Harper they way they did: as a potential sidekick

@TimeLordScience: They can't have a Batman & Robin ongoing without a Robin. There will have to be some new Robin sooner rather than later unless that book is already announced as having been cancelled. Five issues of grieving are in the wings -- which takes us to September. I sincerely doubt we're going to see a more likely candidate for the position arise anytime soon.

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@danhimself said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

It's so awesome when untalented writers shoehorn their created characters down the reader's throat.

yeah this is nothing like when Morrison shoved Damian down our throats

You're right, it's not like that because Morrison is a genius and Snyder is a hack who rips off better writers, like Morrison.

And Damian was sooo shoved down the reader's throats. He starred in an arc, then was gone for around 12 issues, showed up now and then in another and was written in Batman and Robin, which was a partner-story And if you want to complain that Tim was "shoved aside", he got a new role as an independent crime fighter and his own comic series. Geez, how awful for him. And unlike Harper Row who is super-special awesome, Damian actually grew as a character and served a clear purpose.

Pick your battles. Going up against FTBB when it comes to Morrison and Batman is not one you will win.

I'd only lose that battle because in your mind you're always right but the problem is that you really don't actually bring any credible points to the battle only elitist fanboy nonsense....Harper has only appeared in 4 issues and each of them has been spread at least 5 issues apart so yeah she hasn't grown as a character yet...everyone hated Damian when he was introduced and almost all of his development came from Tomasi not from Morrison.....just because you're a Morrison fanboy doesn't mean that every other writer is a hack...get over yourself and try to enjoy things...if you don't you're only going to stress yourself out and put yourself in an early grave

"I'm not going to give away what happens... whether she would be Robin or not," Snyder told MTV Geek.

"I feel badly that everybody is assuming that just because she's there right afterwards, we were trying to position her as the new Robin. But I can tell you honestly, everybody reading this... she's not designed to be Robin."

Row was introduced by Snyder in Batman #7 when she saved a wounded Bruce Wayne on the verge of death.

"What the creation of Harper Row was really about was creating a lens for me personally that I could relate to in Gotham, that would be like, a kid, or somebody struggling," the writer continued.

"As a young person, you're trying to make ends meet, you're in this place that's really tough, nobody believes in you and you have this incredible superhero in town that's doing these things that inspire you."

Good god, the hate in this thread is delicious. YOU get a red ring! And YOU get a red ring! RED RINGS FOR EVERYONE!

Scott Snyder is ruining Batman for the real fans and is making things amazing for those who don't know and understand the characters.

@akbogert said:

@TimeLordScience: They can't have a Batman & Robin ongoing without a Robin. There will have to be some new Robin sooner rather than later unless that book is already announced as having been cancelled. Five issues of grieving are in the wings -- which takes us to September. I sincerely doubt we're going to see a more likely candidate for the position arise anytime soon.

There is that rumour about sixteen titles being cancelled so that they can launch four new weekly titles in October. Maybe Batman And Robin will be cancelled once the five stages of grief arc is over.

@TDK_1997 said:

Scott Snyder is ruining Batman for the real fans and is making things amazing for those who don't know and understand the characters.

wow that is a very judgmental and unnecessary overview of what you believe, too bad that people who actually like and know Batman read it

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@akbogert said:

@TimeLordScience: They can't have a Batman & Robin ongoing without a Robin. There will have to be some new Robin sooner rather than later unless that book is already announced as having been cancelled. Five issues of grieving are in the wings -- which takes us to September. I sincerely doubt we're going to see a more likely candidate for the position arise anytime soon.

There is that rumour about sixteen titles being cancelled so that they can launch four new weekly titles in October. Maybe Batman And Robin will be cancelled once the five stages of grief arc is over.

ive heard that rumor as well. To me that is the worst thing that they can do, but Tomasi has to find a way to make the title work with Damian gone. Making Harper Robin so soon is the wrong move, but its not worth cancelling a title that is one of the best sellers in DC right now. I dont particularly like it sometimes, but i doubt DC would cancel one of its top sellers

@danhimself: Interesting.

@TDK_1997: Less interesting.

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: But wouldn't they announce the end ahead of time, to hype up how big of a deal those issues would be? Also, I tend not to pay attention to rumors.

@wessaari said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@akbogert said:

@TimeLordScience: They can't have a Batman & Robin ongoing without a Robin. There will have to be some new Robin sooner rather than later unless that book is already announced as having been cancelled. Five issues of grieving are in the wings -- which takes us to September. I sincerely doubt we're going to see a more likely candidate for the position arise anytime soon.

There is that rumour about sixteen titles being cancelled so that they can launch four new weekly titles in October. Maybe Batman And Robin will be cancelled once the five stages of grief arc is over.

ive heard that rumor as well. To me that is the worst thing that they can do, but Tomasi has to find a way to make the title work with Damian gone. Making Harper Robin so soon is the wrong move, but its not worth cancelling a title that is one of the best sellers in DC right now. I dont particularly like it sometimes, but i doubt DC would cancel one of its top sellers

I agree that the weekly titles, and making her Robin so soon are bad ideas, if she does become Robin that is.

Even if it is one of the top sellers, Damian being gone will probably change the dynamic of it quite a bit, so it won't quite be the same series as i was before. The fact that they're willing to rename the issues without Damian suggests that they may be willing to rename the whole series when a new partner comes in, so it's possible that instead of cancelling it, they might just rename it Batman And "Harper"(whatever she calls herself).

If they decide to just cancel it, it's possible that the team behind it may move on to working on the weekly Batman series instead.

@akbogert:I don't know. I'm not sure how far in advance they announce the cancellation of a series.

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: the solicit for the last issue will always indicate that it's the last issue; assuming those ones have already been written, the series is guaranteed to last beyond the mourning. Doesn't mean they won't end it shortly thereafter, but given the choice between that and believing they'll just change the name, I'd go in for the latter. Either way, that would keep this off the chopping block if the rumor is true. Guess we'll see.

@akbogert:I think solicits are announced about three months in advance, so I think we'll see the 'acceptance' issue solicit in about two months, so we'll find out soon enough.

One thing that makes me think they'll keep it going, is the fact that they're doing the five stages of grief as part of this series. It would probably be odd to end the series with those issues, so maybe we'll see Batman And Row-bin start with #24

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: Oh goodness. "Row-bin." That's...terrible, haha. And that's true, it would have made more sense to end the series and then have the five stages of grief be more like a standalone thing (since obviously Damian's death affects Bruce beyond just the B&R line).