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#1 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara Gordon nearly has a 50/50 split between these two identities... I'm curious which everyone views her more as.

Batgirl = 21 years (20 years between her creation and retirement and 1 year being back in the role)

Oracle = 22 years

I think I consider her more Oracle than Batgirl...

#2 Posted by SmashBrawler (5978 posts) - - Show Bio

At first, I was against it, like everyone else.

But now that I've been reading some back issues... I have to say I don't feel there's that much stuff that could be done with her as Oracle by now, whereas her Batgirl stint has been largely unexplored.

#3 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

if Barbara is Batgirl, who is Batwoman? im a little confused.

#4 Posted by SmashBrawler (5978 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

if Barbara is Batgirl, who is Batwoman? im a little confused.

Kate Kane. She's been Batwoman since... 2005/2006, I think.

#5 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

and Barbara gordon is James Gordons daughter. shesh revelation for me :P

#6 Edited by ngroove (318 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken:

BATGIRL! ORACLE IS BOR-RING!!!

I'm sure pop culture identifies her more as Batgirl as well, see cartoons, Holloween costumes, clothing, stationery, silly bandz, party supplies, action figures, McDonald's toys, Barbie Dolls...

#7 Edited by Blood1991 (8082 posts) - - Show Bio

I prefer her as Oracle.

#8 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

Better as Oracle, wheelchair optional.

#9 Posted by Hastny (59 posts) - - Show Bio

Definitely oracle.
#10 Posted by Mediumguy (166 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle was an highly valuable asset, batgirl...not so much.

#11 Posted by Ironhawk22 (274 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle. Guess we'll get our last glimpse of Oracle next month in Batman Inc, I really loved Babs as Oracle.

#12 Posted by The_Tree (7931 posts) - - Show Bio

Babs'll always be Oracle in my mind.

#13 Posted by gotwillpower (679 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

Better as Oracle, wheelchair optional.

Yeah, they should just make her Oracle again, even though she doesn't need a wheelchair.

#14 Posted by tomlikesfries (4856 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Tree said:

Babs'll always be Oracle in my mind.

#16 Posted by ltbrd (562 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara should have been left as Oracle, though I don't really care if she was in a wheelchair or not. Her original backstory made more sense than the new 52 does. Yes, her zero issue stated she'd been taking self-defense classes since she was six......but that's a long stretch to come up with a reason she's ready to go on patrol against Gotham's worst alongside a guy that's been training to the utmost of human potential his entire life and a teenager that was raised as an acrobat and trained by said intense guy for months before hitting the streets. Self-defense classes just don't compare to all the other physical aspects that would be required of her character. So it would seem to fit much better had her new 52 origin painted her as a computer savant from the get-go, who comes to work with Bruce and Dick while trying to solve their identities or something like that. Then Cassandra could be the one and only Batgirl (I wouldn't mind Stephanie in the new 52, like her character, but see no reason not to keep her Spoiler or maybe not even have an identity but work as an intelligence/infiltration agent.....like she did going to the boarding school in Batman, Inc.....alongside Barbara), which would make a lot more sense given her life-long training as an assassin.

The other issue you have to consider with Barbara as Oracle, which I know some people don't want to admit or acknowledge but its never-the-less true, is that being handicapped and being such a huge part of the superhero community was such a unique icon in comics and a move that allowed a wider audience range to have an inspiration and character to look up to. I think DC was stupid to take that away from those fans that identified and gravitated to her character on that basis simply to try and re-establish a "silver age" ideology to the character.

#17 Posted by Gambit1024 (9843 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle ftw.

She's done more to help as Oracle than as Batgirl, imo.

#18 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle.

Do not get me wrong, despite the fact that The Killing Joke is my favourite comic book (mostly because of what it manages to explain about the nature of Batman and the Joker in only a few pages), I really, really hate what Moore did to Barbara (In my opinion, it was a stupid Women in Refrigerator moment).

Having said that, Barbara going back to Batgirl is just the opposite of character development. It is just as stupid as Dick Grayson going back to being Robin (and to the people arguing that she should be Batgirl because that is how most people know her, there is your rebuttal. Try arguing that Nightwing is more famous than Robin).

#19 Posted by Goldenboy_Prime (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

Having said that, Barbara going back to Batgirl is just the opposite of character development. It is just as stupid as Dick Grayson going back to being Robin (and to the people arguing that she should be Batgirl because that is how most people know her, there is your rebuttal. Try arguing that Nightwing is more famous than Robin).

QFT.... Stay out of my mind!

#20 Posted by ngroove (318 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCannon said:

I like her being Batgirl more. However, I'd rather have her as Oracle in the New 52. That gives a way for Stephanie Brown to become Batgirl.

......But Stephanie Brown was a THIRD TIER BATGIRL.....

#21 Posted by TheCannon (19377 posts) - - Show Bio

@ngroove said:

@TheCannon said:

I like her being Batgirl more. However, I'd rather have her as Oracle in the New 52. That gives a way for Stephanie Brown to become Batgirl.

......But Stephanie Brown was a THIRD TIER BATGIRL.....

What does that even have to do with my post?

Online
#22 Posted by PowerHerc (85335 posts) - - Show Bio

Batgirl.

No question. No doubt.

#23 Edited by ngroove (318 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCannon said:

@ngroove said:

@TheCannon said:

I like her being Batgirl more. However, I'd rather have her as Oracle in the New 52. That gives a way for Stephanie Brown to become Batgirl.

......But Stephanie Brown was a THIRD TIER BATGIRL.....

What does that even have to do with my post?

You're still not over the loss of "your" little Stephanie Brown Batgirl...

Stephanie Brown was a Batgirl supported ONLY by cult following, whether agreed on her being Batgirl, supportive yet small, can't support its own title forever...

Besides, who needs a lesser Batgirl, when we've got the REAL thing, Barbara Gordon, back in action?

#24 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

I prefer her as oracle but im not against her being batgirl

#25 Posted by TheCowman (461 posts) - - Show Bio

She was cooler as Oracle. Supplying critical info to not only the entire Bat-family, but the frickin' Justice League as well; all while running her own formidable group of heroes. After that, going back to dressing up in tights and punching muggers just seems so..... small. The mantle of Batgirl had been successfully passed on to Cassandra Cain and later to Stephanie Brown. Both of which were great Batgirls in very different ways.

Putting Babs back in the Batgirl suit feels too much like making Spidey single again.

#26 Posted by PassionFlower (963 posts) - - Show Bio

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

@DarthShap said:

Having said that, Barbara going back to Batgirl is just the opposite of character development. It is just as stupid as Dick Grayson going back to being Robin (and to the people arguing that she should be Batgirl because that is how most people know her, there is your rebuttal. Try arguing that Nightwing is more famous than Robin).

QFT.... Stay out of my mind!

Agreed to the fullest.

#27 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@ngroove said:

@TheCannon said:

@ngroove said:

@TheCannon said:

I like her being Batgirl more. However, I'd rather have her as Oracle in the New 52. That gives a way for Stephanie Brown to become Batgirl.

......But Stephanie Brown was a THIRD TIER BATGIRL.....

What does that even have to do with my post?

You're still not over the loss of "your" little Stephanie Brown Batgirl...

Stephanie Brown was a Batgirl supported ONLY by cult following, whether agreed on her being Batgirl, supportive yet small, can't support its own title forever...

Besides, who needs a lesser Batgirl, when we've got the REAL thing, Barbara Gordon, back in action?

The argument is the same here. Dick Grayson is "the REAL Robin". Does it mean that DC should have erased all his character development as well as the four characters who succeeded him?

And really, who is not moving on here? You are the one who is in favour of a return to a 24 year old statu quo.

#28 Edited by Goldenboy_Prime (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@ngroove said:

@TheCannon said:

@ngroove said:

@TheCannon said:

I like her being Batgirl more. However, I'd rather have her as Oracle in the New 52. That gives a way for Stephanie Brown to become Batgirl.

......But Stephanie Brown was a THIRD TIER BATGIRL.....

What does that even have to do with my post?

You're still not over the loss of "your" little Stephanie Brown Batgirl...

Stephanie Brown was a Batgirl supported ONLY by cult following, whether agreed on her being Batgirl, supportive yet small, can't support its own title forever...

Besides, who needs a lesser Batgirl, when we've got the REAL thing, Barbara Gordon, back in action?

BETTE KANE should be brought back as Batgirl since she is the first and the REAL Batgirl. Why is this lesser Batgirl in action?

Cassandra Cain > anyone who ever called themselves Batgirl. Sigh, even Bertinelli.

#29 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

Barb was way more interesting as Oracle and both Cass and Steph were more interesting as Batgirl

even in Batgirl Year One, Barb was way more interesting there but was mostly because Dixon wrote her a lot like Spoiler

now the only interesting thing of Batgirl is that she was traumatized by the Killing Joke and has PTSD, other than that she is one of the blandest characters in DC at this moments

#30 Posted by thegoddessofwar (24 posts) - - Show Bio

I like her as Oracle more. It strengthened her as a character. I didn't find her dull anymore.

#31 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get why people are looking down on Stephanie as Batgirl... Stephanie is modeled on Barbara as she would have been as Batgirl... which in turn is what Barbara as Batgirl now is modeled on, but Barbara isn't that character in my estimation because Barbara has grown up and to bring her back to that, even if you maintain all the history only reduces her. Also I gotta remind you that while "Barbara Gordon" was Batgirl for 20 years, those 20 years she never had her own book and only guest starred so even though the times are similar... the page times aren't. I would even argue that if you were to gather up all the page time Babs had as Batgirl and compare it to Cassandra or Stephanie, Babs would have less than both as Batgirl.

Also, I gotta point out that "Women in refrigerators" is actually quite wrong. The point of the WiR is to point out how female heroines are handled "differently" because they are depowered/killed/maimed in some way...AND as a way to ignore that all these things happen to male characters try to argue "never return to their previous status". And to even get to that you have to eliminate characters on the list who are not Heroines, but side characters. You also have to eliminate characters that don't actually fit the "maimed" part like Carol Ferris v.v, and then further eliminate characters that grow from the event and become stronger...like I don't know... Barbara Gordon. Another thing you have to do is eliminate characters that can't come back due to series not existing in any way shape or form and following their adventures isn't important. Of course once we do that we then would have to eliminate, to see if there is an actual problem with "heroines" facing this problem 1 woman character for every male character that is a hero that is dead/depowered/maimed such as Arsenal, Blue Beetle, Cyborg Superman, Lex Luthor, Kurt Conners. (the 3 "villains" i have to remind you did not start as villains and are actually trying to be heroes of some sort or another) and that is off the top my head and would eliminate a good portion of the legitimate list... so that list is more or less bunk.

#32 Posted by Bruxae (14008 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle is what made Barbara unique, else shes just another bat-person.

#33 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCannon said:

Stephanie Brown

who is she related to again? kinda confused.

and who is Kate Kane related to? aka. Batwoman?

#34 Posted by Trodorne (2498 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle Hands Down. but either way I love me the red head.

#35 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

@TheCannon said:

Stephanie Brown

who is she related to again? kinda confused.

and who is Kate Kane related to? aka. Batwoman?

Stephanie brown is related to no one... besides Clue Master

Kate Kane is related to Bette Kane and Kate Webb-Kane who is related to Bruce Wayne

The way it goes is...

Martha Wayne's brother married Kate Webb who became Batwoman I

Bette Kane (Bat-Girl/Flamebird) is the niece of Kate Webb-Kane and given the name she would be related by marriage, not blood, but that also means that Bette is related to Bruce Wayne. They are 2nd or 3rd cousins.

Bette Kane is also cousin to Kate Kane who is Batwoman II.

Am i really the only one that can follow this or something? I've explained it several times in the past,

#36 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

Also, I gotta point out that "Women in refrigerators" is actually quite wrong. The point of the WiR is to point out how female heroines are handled "differently" because they are depowered/killed/maimed in some way...AND as a way to ignore that all these things happen to male characters try to argue "never return to their previous status". And to even get to that you have to eliminate characters on the list who are not Heroines, but side characters. You also have to eliminate characters that don't actually fit the "maimed" part like Carol Ferris v.v, and then further eliminate characters that grow from the event and become stronger...like I don't know... Barbara Gordon. Another thing you have to do is eliminate characters that can't come back due to series not existing in any way shape or form and following their adventures isn't important. Of course once we do that we then would have to eliminate, to see if there is an actual problem with "heroines" facing this problem 1 woman character for every male character that is a hero that is dead/depowered/maimed such as Arsenal, Blue Beetle, Cyborg Superman, Lex Luthor, Kurt Conners. (the 3 "villains" i have to remind you did not start as villains and are actually trying to be heroes of some sort or another) and that is off the top my head and would eliminate a good portion of the legitimate list... so that list is more or less bunk.

No.

You are just inventing rules that fon the creators of the list would "have to" follow, for no reason.

It never was about female superheroines (although some characters were superheroines), it was about the suffering of women being used as plot devices to further the character development of the male protagonists (and that is exactly how Moore used Barbara Gordon in the Killing Joke).

If you did not get that, you did not get the point of the list. You do know that it is a reference to Alex Dewitt, Kyle Rayner's first GF, who was not a superheroine.

#37 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

@Durakken said:

Also, I gotta point out that "Women in refrigerators" is actually quite wrong. The point of the WiR is to point out how female heroines are handled "differently" because they are depowered/killed/maimed in some way...AND as a way to ignore that all these things happen to male characters try to argue "never return to their previous status". And to even get to that you have to eliminate characters on the list who are not Heroines, but side characters. You also have to eliminate characters that don't actually fit the "maimed" part like Carol Ferris v.v, and then further eliminate characters that grow from the event and become stronger...like I don't know... Barbara Gordon. Another thing you have to do is eliminate characters that can't come back due to series not existing in any way shape or form and following their adventures isn't important. Of course once we do that we then would have to eliminate, to see if there is an actual problem with "heroines" facing this problem 1 woman character for every male character that is a hero that is dead/depowered/maimed such as Arsenal, Blue Beetle, Cyborg Superman, Lex Luthor, Kurt Conners. (the 3 "villains" i have to remind you did not start as villains and are actually trying to be heroes of some sort or another) and that is off the top my head and would eliminate a good portion of the legitimate list... so that list is more or less bunk.

No.

You are just inventing rules that fon the creators of the list would "have to" follow, for no reason.

It never was about female superheroines (although some characters were superheroines), it was about the suffering of women being used as plot devices to further the character development of the male protagonists (and that is exactly how Moore used Barbara Gordon in the Killing Joke).

If you did not get that, you did not get the point of the list. You do know that it is a reference to Alex Dewitt, Kyle Rayner's first GF, who was not a superheroine.

"These are superheroines..." ~ Gail Simone

Now go do research before you speak

#38 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara Gordon is Batgirl!

Kate Webbe Kane is nobody?

Kate Kane is Batwoman

Bette Kane is Batwoman II ?

#39 Edited by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN:

... Are you doing this to annoy me?

Barbara Gordon = Batgirl I and Oracle

Kate Webb-Kane = Batwoman I

Bette Kane = Bat-Girl & Flamebird

Kate Kane = Batwoman II

#40 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

no of course not!! sorry, its just very very confusing :D! hope no hard feelings

#41 Edited by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

no of course not!! sorry, its just very very confusing :D! hope no hard feelings

Just checkin lol cuz there are people that do that...

Kate Webb-Kane and Bette Kane were introduced as Batwoman and Bat-Girl when DC did their "family" thing, but Kate was killed off and Bette was forgotten because they "didn't make sense." The batgirl character was revived in the form of Barbara Gordon later and pushed forward for the 60s Batman series. Bette Kane was largely forgotten but came back later with taking on the new name of Flamebird... I don't know much about her time with that name so don't ask ^.^

Time has past and now there is this whole silver age revival thing so they reintroduced the concept of Batwoman with Kate Kane and had Bette Kane be her cousin and want to be her sidekick.

Some notes:

Kate Webb-Kane and Bruce Wayne are Aunt and Nephew by marriage but Kate's job was to seduce Bruce so that he would reveal his identity... which to some people might seem a bit creepy.

The Kane name game... The only female Kane with a name that isn't a variation on Elizabeth or Katherine that we know of is Martha, Bruce's mother. Also, if you count it, the previous ancestor who didn't have the name Kane yet that married into the Wayne Family...I think it was Joshua.

That Kane name thing make it really confusing... There is 6 named Kane women. 2 are named Katherine, 1 named Catherine. 2 are named Elizabeth, and 1 named Martha. One has to imagine that one of their ancestors were named Katherine and Elizabeth that were famous or did something that is notable in their family lore as that is usually why names are do predominant in families.

Oh also, technically Barbara Gordon is the 3rd iteration of the "Batgirl" idea. The original were in some of the older golden age comics.

#42 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@DarthShap said:

@Durakken said:

Also, I gotta point out that "Women in refrigerators" is actually quite wrong. The point of the WiR is to point out how female heroines are handled "differently" because they are depowered/killed/maimed in some way...AND as a way to ignore that all these things happen to male characters try to argue "never return to their previous status". And to even get to that you have to eliminate characters on the list who are not Heroines, but side characters. You also have to eliminate characters that don't actually fit the "maimed" part like Carol Ferris v.v, and then further eliminate characters that grow from the event and become stronger...like I don't know... Barbara Gordon. Another thing you have to do is eliminate characters that can't come back due to series not existing in any way shape or form and following their adventures isn't important. Of course once we do that we then would have to eliminate, to see if there is an actual problem with "heroines" facing this problem 1 woman character for every male character that is a hero that is dead/depowered/maimed such as Arsenal, Blue Beetle, Cyborg Superman, Lex Luthor, Kurt Conners. (the 3 "villains" i have to remind you did not start as villains and are actually trying to be heroes of some sort or another) and that is off the top my head and would eliminate a good portion of the legitimate list... so that list is more or less bunk.

No.

You are just inventing rules that fon the creators of the list would "have to" follow, for no reason.

It never was about female superheroines (although some characters were superheroines), it was about the suffering of women being used as plot devices to further the character development of the male protagonists (and that is exactly how Moore used Barbara Gordon in the Killing Joke).

If you did not get that, you did not get the point of the list. You do know that it is a reference to Alex Dewitt, Kyle Rayner's first GF, who was not a superheroine.

"These are superheroines..." ~ Gail Simone

Now go do research before you speak

Ok I had forgotten about that that was 1999 quote. My bad.

Having said that, the concept has evolved since then. At the time, nothing had been theorized. Since then however, the expression, the list and its interpretation have changed.

Now you go do your research. We are not in 1999 anymore. Here, I am helping you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WomenInRefrigerators

http://www.comicvine.com/women-in-refrigerators/12-43763/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInYaHVSLr8

You are welcome.

#43 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@FatihBATMAN said:

no of course not!! sorry, its just very very confusing :D! hope no hard feelings

Kate Webb-Kane and Bette Kane were introduced as Batwoman and Bat-Girl when DC did their "family" thing, but Kate was killed off and Bette was forgotten because they "didn't make sense." The batgirl character was revived in the form of Barbara Gordon later and pushed forward for the 60s Batman series. Bette Kane was largely forgotten but came back later with taking on the new name of Flamebird...

Time has past and now there is this whole silver age revival thing so they reintroduced the concept of Batwoman with Kate Kane and had Bette Kane be her cousin and want to be her sidekick.

Kate Webb-Kane and Bruce Wayne are Aunt and Nephew by marriage but Kate's job was to seduce Bruce so that he would reveal his identity... which to some people might seem a bit creepy.

Oh also, technically Barbara Gordon is the 3rd iteration of the "Batgirl" idea. The original were in some of the older golden age comics.

alright...wow....very very deep lore/story here.....uhm...I need to read this through several times hehe, so what youre saying:

Kate was killed off, and nowhere to be seen even after new 52? and Bette "forgotten" but "came" back as flamebird? and is now in the Red Hood and the outlaws issue, is that correct?

where do you know this silver age revival thing? what news do you read? i wanna be updated :)!

are Kate Webb-Kane and Kate Kane sisters?

Thanks for helping me...appreciate it <3

#44 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

Ok I had forgotten about that that was 1999 quote. My bad.

Having said that, the concept has evolved since then. At the time, nothing had been theorized. Since then however, the expression, the list and its interpretation have changed.

Now you go do your research. We are not in 1999 anymore. Here, I am helping you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WomenInRefrigerators

http://www.comicvine.com/women-in-refrigerators/12-43763/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInYaHVSLr8

You are welcome.

The concept has not evolved. I was going to point this out, but hoped you would... the concept is flawed in principle. That name comes from a non-superheroine and yet the definition is only meant to address superheroines. It is more, in my estimation, blindness to context and males more so than it is that anything that is said about the idea is actually accurate. This is incredibly apparent when you look at some of the list with such an entry as "Carol Ferris" who was never "maimed or depowered" or at least that is not why she was added. Why she was added is because she became empowered, not once, but twice over. The reason she is on the list is because it's not favorable empowerment.

Further, the same type of people that would come up with this type of list are the same type of people that would say the primary victim of war are the women because they have to deal with their men (note the possessive as in the objectification of men) dying and then would argue that Arsenal's daughter's death isn't him being victim contrarily to their first point.

Of course then the whole argument of women who develop some sort of psychosis, are maimed, are raped, are victimized, etc is special to the gender...well i just have to laugh because that then ignores all those other characters such as Norman Osborn, Doc Oc., Harry Osborn, Sandman, many other Spiderman villains, almost all Batman villains, a litany of Superman villains, and not to mention all the heroes who face such things like Spiderman, the X-men, Speedy, Robin, etc. So when it all comes down to it I'm pretty sure I could find more male characters facing these things than female and I'd be more than willing to say, even adjusted so that it's based on percentage of victimized of the whole gender, males would likely come out way way way more victimized.

Oh and just to point out...the carol ferris thing invalidates the whole list in general because the idea is supposed to be depowered, not empowered v.v since again, part of the idea is depowerment without return to pre-depowered levels.

#45 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

@Durakken said:

@FatihBATMAN said:

no of course not!! sorry, its just very very confusing :D! hope no hard feelings

Kate Webb-Kane and Bette Kane were introduced as Batwoman and Bat-Girl when DC did their "family" thing, but Kate was killed off and Bette was forgotten because they "didn't make sense." The batgirl character was revived in the form of Barbara Gordon later and pushed forward for the 60s Batman series. Bette Kane was largely forgotten but came back later with taking on the new name of Flamebird...

Time has past and now there is this whole silver age revival thing so they reintroduced the concept of Batwoman with Kate Kane and had Bette Kane be her cousin and want to be her sidekick.

Kate Webb-Kane and Bruce Wayne are Aunt and Nephew by marriage but Kate's job was to seduce Bruce so that he would reveal his identity... which to some people might seem a bit creepy.

Oh also, technically Barbara Gordon is the 3rd iteration of the "Batgirl" idea. The original were in some of the older golden age comics.

alright...wow....very very deep lore/story here.....uhm...I need to read this through several times hehe, so what youre saying:

Kate was killed off, and nowhere to be seen even after new 52? and Bette "forgotten" but "came" back as flamebird? and is now in the Red Hood and the outlaws issue, is that correct?

where do you know this silver age revival thing? what news do you read? i wanna be updated :)!

are Kate Webb-Kane and Kate Kane sisters?

Thanks for helping me...appreciate it <3

Kate Webb-Kane was killed off in the 60s before Barbara Gordon came about.

Flamebird is not a member of the Outlaws. The person you are thinking of is Starfire.

The Silver Age Revival just a thing that is apparent when you look at the crud that DC is doing right now.

Kate Webb-kane and Kate Kane are not sister... We don't know their relationship, but would guess that Kate Webb-Kane would be considered an aunt of some kind or cousin to Kate Kane.

Jacob Kane could be Martha Wayne's brother, but we don't know. I would however bet that he is at least once removed and that would make him her cousin. It is however possible, given that it hasn't been stated not to be possible, that there are 4 Kane siblings in that generation... Martha, Kate Webb-Kane's husband, Jacob, and Bette's parents, but i find that unlikely.

#46 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

ohh right okay! makes sense!

#47 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (7978 posts) - - Show Bio

I never read Barbra as Oracle but I like her current new 52 run as Batgirl. I gonna start reading the Steph Brown Batgirl series after I finish the Y The Last man Volumes. Lets see what is all the fuss about Steph as Batgirl.

#48 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

whats the run on Steph as batgirl called?

#49 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

Stephanie Brown is the fifth batgirl?...I thought barbara was the current batgirl?

#50 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@DarthShap said:

Ok I had forgotten about that that was 1999 quote. My bad.

Having said that, the concept has evolved since then. At the time, nothing had been theorized. Since then however, the expression, the list and its interpretation have changed.

Now you go do your research. We are not in 1999 anymore. Here, I am helping you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WomenInRefrigerators

http://www.comicvine.com/women-in-refrigerators/12-43763/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInYaHVSLr8

You are welcome.

The concept has not evolved. I was going to point this out, but hoped you would... the concept is flawed in principle. That name comes from a non-superheroine and yet the definition is only meant to address superheroines. It is more, in my estimation, blindness to context and males more so than it is that anything that is said about the idea is actually accurate. This is incredibly apparent when you look at some of the list with such an entry as "Carol Ferris" who was never "maimed or depowered" or at least that is not why she was added. Why she was added is because she became empowered, not once, but twice over. The reason she is on the list is because it's not favorable empowerment.

Further, the same type of people that would come up with this type of list are the same type of people that would say the primary victim of war are the women because they have to deal with their men (note the possessive as in the objectification of men) dying and then would argue that Arsenal's daughter's death isn't him being victim contrarily to their first point.

Of course then the whole argument of women who develop some sort of psychosis, are maimed, are raped, are victimized, etc is special to the gender...well i just have to laugh because that then ignores all those other characters such as Norman Osborn, Doc Oc., Harry Osborn, Sandman, many other Spiderman villains, almost all Batman villains, a litany of Superman villains, and not to mention all the heroes who face such things like Spiderman, the X-men, Speedy, Robin, etc. So when it all comes down to it I'm pretty sure I could find more male characters facing these things than female and I'd be more than willing to say, even adjusted so that it's based on percentage of victimized of the whole gender, males would likely come out way way way more victimized.

Oh and just to point out...the carol ferris thing invalidates the whole list in general because the idea is supposed to be depowered, not empowered v.v since again, part of the idea is depowerment without return to pre-depowered levels.

What do you mean it never evolved? I just showed you it did. Someone did not do his research.

The stuff you are saying about war casualties has nothing to to with the topic. "Those damn women do not know what it is like to go to war" Riiiiight...OK.

I do not know why you want to talk about villains either. Villains often get what they deserve. It has little to do with gender.

For heroes and their side characters, it is different and that is where there usually is a big difference in treatment between man and women. Most times, when something bad happens to a man, the story will be about how he overcame it (Batman: Venom or Knightfall) but when something happens to a woman, you do not necessarily get a big fightwhere the woman defends herself and the story will more often than not be about how the man reacts to that situation (Killing Joke, Identity Crisis, Death of the New Gods, Green Lantern in Action Comics Weekly, War Games, Longbow Hunters, Cry for Justice, Blitz...).

Finally, I fail to see how one example can invalidate an entire list and an entire concept. And I would not call being possessed empowering.