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#1 Edited by Shatterstar (4437 posts) - - Show Bio

Guidelines for Showdowns/Contests/Faceoffs

All rules are subject to change depending on popular demand:

  • Anyone can enter, regardless of skill level.
  • Art must be of YOUR own creation (unless its a collaboration in which case give proper credit). If you suspect someone is breaking this rule please PM me or another moderator.
  • Art must be started and completed in the timeframe of the showdown. Its not fair to post a piece you worked on for a month when the deadline of the showdown is a week. Likewise send a PM to a mod if this rule is broken with evidence.
  • Deadlines should be kept reasonable- no less than a week, no more than three except for Crank Those Panels. If no deadline is posted, it defaults to a week.
  • Showdown winners are responsible for starting the next showdown thread and the voting thread to go along with it. If you know you're going to be busy or don't want the responsibility ask a friend or a mod to start the next thread for you.
  • If more than two days go past the deadline with no voting thread posted, a mod or anyone can post the voting thread to keep things rolling.
  • If only one contestant has entered a showdown by the deadline, that person wins by default.
  • No declaring winners before voting officially ends, voting should last 24-72 hours to give people a chance to see the thread. The end of voting should have a specific time (eg 5pm PST, 12am EST, etc). Ties go into sudden death after the specified end of voting, next vote wins.
  • Thread starters/winners CAN enter their own contests if they want.
  • Any medium can be used unless otherwise indicated by the thread starter- pencils, inks, CGI, markers, charcoal, watercolors, pasta noodles, whatever.
  • If you cheat, you run the risk of being called out and humiliated by your peers. Don't try to stack votes in your favor using multiple accounts, mods can tell when you do that, we will disqualify you.
  • Constructive criticism, tips, accolades, and compliments are encouraged.
  • Please no nudity, its a family/work friendly forum and we don't need people getting fired or awkward questions from children.
  • One official entry should be submitted per contest unless thread creator says otherwise at the start of the contest or if there are scanning issues. If you create 5 pieces and want them all to be considered, paste them together as best you can into one image.
  • You do not need a mods' approval to start a new contest/showdown but it should be distinct from existing contests. Check with the other artists on the forum to gauge their interest before posting a new contest or risk being ignored/dismissed. Contests need to have a degree of interest from the community before they get pinned.
  • Showdowns are for your own growth, getting experience working within deadlines, and showing off your skills in friendly competition, its not about who wins. So keep it civil and worry less about whether you'll win and more about progressing your own art at whatever level you're at.
  • HAVE FUN.

Showdown Descriptions

  • Amalgam Contest - Combine two or more characters into one character. Capturing essential aspects of each character is important here.
  • Artist Show-Off Showdown - The original Showdown contest, it can be about any character(s)/team(s)/theme/scenario/location/medium. Entirely up to the Showdown creator.
  • Battle Contest - Pitting two or more characters against each other.
  • Character Creation Contest - Create a character of your own design (preferably with a back story to match). Originality and creativity are rewarded in these contests.
  • Costume Contest - Fashion a new costume look for an established character or team.
  • Public Domain Re-Design Contest - Revamping characters of yesteryear that exist in the public domain

Defunct Showdowns

  • Disney-fy a Marvel Contest- Disney has bought Marvel, make your worst fears come true and Disney-fy a Marvel character or do the reverse and Marvelate a Disney character.
  • Variants Contest- Create a variant cover for an issue, put a new spin on it or recreate it in your own style.
  • Gender Swap Contest- Give a male character female attributes or vice versa.
  • 2099 Contest - Updating current characters for the world of tomorrow (formerly DC 2099 Contest).
  • Round Robin Contest - Winning artist chooses another ComicVine member of ComicVine to help determine the subsequent contest theme. Winners notify your Viner of choice and give him or her 3-5 days to reply and start the next contest theme. If no reply, choose the next concept yourself.
  • Crank Those Panels - Panel to panel page re-creation, challenging creativity and storytelling ability. As it takes more time to create, these contests should be longer in length 1-2 months.

Anything I'm forgetting, anything you'd like to add, or anything you'd like removed from this list, lets discuss it here.

Moderator
#2 Edited by sora_thekey (8105 posts) - - Show Bio
@Shatterstar: 
There is:  
- Costume Contest  
- Disney-fy a Marvel Contest 
- Battle Contest... 
  
There are others that were pretty much droped like: 
- Variants Contest 
- Gender Swap Contest 
 
I like the fact that there are rules to this but if I may ask... what brought the need to have them?
Moderator
#3 Edited by Shatterstar (4437 posts) - - Show Bio

Its something I've been meaning to do for a while but haven't had the time to do. Part of it is to provide some clarity to new users that might be confused as to whats going on here. Some questions seem to come up every few months or so like can a winner enter their own contest, is art created outside of the time of the showdown allowable, how long should contests last, etc.  I'd rather have these questions addressed in one place people can find answers rather than searching through the forum, whether they're new users or people that have been around that might be confused.
 
Certain contests/showdowns seem to be on life support like the Costume Contest and I think that might be in part because of lack of clarity about what to do next or just a lack of interest. The Disney-fy a Marvel Contest hasn't had a post, let alone an entry in over a month unfortunately. I'm thinking that contest can be amalgamated with the Amalgam Contest. The Character Creation contest, hasn't had a voting thread in a while now too. If there's interest in bringing these back, i'll be sure to pin them to try to call attention to them. Unfortunately it seems like we can only sustain 3 or 4 max contests a month. Maybe some of these less popular contests can be monthly instead of weekly or bi-weekly?
 
BTW if anyone wants to make a thread like the one I made showing off the Show-off Showdown winners for these other contests, i'll be sure to pin it to the board and keep an active link in this thread.

Moderator
#4 Posted by spawndon (1373 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh yes!
There is this new 2099 contest going on for quite some weeks now...
Why not make it official like the other 4 contests?

#5 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually have a question about the Amalgam Contest: Are you allowed to combine any two characters regardless of the company they belong to? If I were ever to win, would I be allowed to have the two subject be Flash and Green Lantern. for example?

#6 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024 said:
" I actually have a question about the Amalgam Contest: Are you allowed to combine any two characters regardless of the company they belong to? If I were ever to win, would I be allowed to have the two subject be Flash and Green Lantern. for example? "
I think the only real criteria is they be 2 comic 'characters', other than that not much to nitpick. 
You might be able to convince me to amalgamate 2 'concepts' though if they were REALLY good ones.
#7 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio
@tonis: I see. Do you have something in mind, sir? ;)
#8 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024 said:
" @tonis: I see. Do you have something in mind, sir? ;) "
on the amalgamations there's a lot of versatility. Between villains and heroes across all the comic companies there's a lot of room for choices. 
I'd say pick two characters that will really contrast their visual appeal and compliments their back stories :)
#9 Posted by Shatterstar (4437 posts) - - Show Bio

Updated- no nudity from this point forward & specific end of voting times should be stated in the voting threads.

Moderator
#10 Posted by Decept-O (7270 posts) - - Show Bio
@Shatterstar said:
"Updated- no nudity from this point forward & specific end of voting times should be stated in the voting threads. "

Thank you for that clarification. 
#11 Posted by DomDom (1013 posts) - - Show Bio

Just curious...How do you make a recap thread? 
#12 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio
@DomDom said:
" Just curious...How do you make a recap thread?  "
what do you mean Dom, like the ones used to post the winners for a contest?
#13 Posted by DomDom (1013 posts) - - Show Bio
@tonis:
Yeah.
#14 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio
@DomDom said:
" @tonis: Yeah. "
those are made by the mods and will get updated on occasions by them to reflect new winners. 
You won't see them for the 'unofficial' contests as they have a policy of waiting until the contest reaches a count of 10 before considering it 'official'.
#15 Edited by DomDom (1013 posts) - - Show Bio
@tonis:
Oops, i mean voting threads hehe.
#16 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio
@DomDom said:
" @tonis: Oops, i mean voting threads hehe. "
ah well those are easier, when your hosting a contest and it's time to make the voting thread you just go to the artist forum and 'START A NEW TOPIC' with the contest ID  and the word 'VOTING' or 'VOTING THREAD'. If it's an official contest it helps to also send a shout to one of the mods that it's up and they'll take care of pinning it so it shows up at the top in the artist forum.
#17 Posted by DomDom (1013 posts) - - Show Bio
@tonis:
Thanks Tonis! =)
#18 Posted by The Lobster (1427 posts) - - Show Bio

Why was the Varient contest defuncted? 
 
Sounds like such an awesome contest.

#19 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

It seems like there's been some problems on here lately. Anyone care to discuss?

I know, it didn't concern me, but I'm a big believer in nipping something in the butt early before things get worse.

#20 Posted by spawndon (1373 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes.

1. In a contest thread, only entries should be put in. No "for fun" items. yes/no?

2. everything is acceptable as long as it shows some amount of believable work from the side of the artist. yes/no?

#21 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@spawndon said:

1. In a contest thread, only entries should be put in. No "for fun" items. yes/no?

2. everything is acceptable as long as it shows some amount of believable work from the side of the artist. yes/no?

1. Yes, with the exception of examples. For example, in the last Round Robin contest (the movie poster one), someone put an example up of what the OP was looking for. It wasn't an official entry, but helped to see an example.

2. I'm inclined to say yes, but to be honest, I'm not sure about Photo-Manipulations. While I agree, they do take time and effort to do, should it really qualify in the same contest with people who are a) beginners or b) do not have access to the technology? I'm not trying to diss the people who do photo-manips, but in my opinion, they're a separate thing from drawing, sculpting, modeling, etc. altogether.

#22 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio

@spawndon said:

Yes.

1. In a contest thread, only entries should be put in. No "for fun" items. yes/no?

2. everything is acceptable as long as it shows some amount of believable work from the side of the artist. yes/no?

as long as what people post is relevant to the topic who cares if it's an entry or just something for inspiration or to share. If a person doesn't want to enter (ie. they prefer not to have to pick a next topic or deal with posting the thread) but want to share something associated to the topic, then why not?

The person in charge of that thread is capable of differentiating between an entry and a general post, it's never caused a single problem in any contest I've seen in the past 2 years so why even make another rule that serves no real purpose other than to prevent people from participating in the thread discussion even if they're not entering the contest.

As for #2, I personally feel as long as the user made an effort in some fashion, be it pencil or pixel, there's no reason to reject anything as long as it's relevant and shows some work on the posters part. Meaning if it's something like photoshop manipulations, that they differentiate their final piece from the pieces they might use in it.

In the case of photoshop manips I think it's not a bad idea for the poster to show what sources they worked from, it helps the viewer get an idea of the work they actually put in when you can see an original next to a manipulation. I've certainly seen some really impressive photoshop work (as well as some real dogs) and I do believe there's a place in the artists forums for those who utilize those skills.

Most importantly, lets remember that no one gets paid or gains anything from contributing to any contest here (other than practice) so when someone does take any amount of time and effort to actually participate it's not very nice to reject their efforts.

#23 Posted by spawndon (1373 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonis said:

Meaning if it's something like photoshop manipulations, that they differentiate their final piece from the pieces they might use in it.

In the case of photoshop manips I think it's not a bad idea for the poster to show what sources they worked from, it helps the viewer get an idea of the work they actually put in when you can see an original next to a manipulation.

About manipulation, I've recently seen some images on the contests (I prefer you find out yourself) that feel like simple photos with photoshop filters (probably pain daub) added. This is not good.

Manipulation comes in many forms, from just scrapping together whatever you find, to expertly selecting elements out of photos and placing them in your creation, to just filtering.

This needs more members to judge.

#24 Edited by Decept-O (7270 posts) - - Show Bio

This goes back to my complaint about a user whose entry I questioned. My beef with that...and with some other ones....is that the images were actually NOT rendered by that user but generated by a completely different source and then posted.

Art is subjective. What constitutes as art can be interpreted in many ways.

Here are my opinions:

Photo Manipulations: Should be accepted. I am not too keen on them at times but other times I've seen some great work. They aren't the same as someone drawing but they have their place in the contests.

Digital and 3D: Should be accepted. While I am not too familiar with the process I've been informed about it a few times and it appears those type of entries should be allowed. While they take existing images, at least the person doing them is altering them, editing and adding things. Falls under the category "altered art", just like Photo Manipulations.

Photoshop: This is something I am not too fond of but again should be accepted. For the same reasons I just mentioned. If a user does use Photoshop he or she should say as much!

Here is where I am having a problem. The images generated by "Micro-Heroes" are usually not accepted and have been frowned upon in the contests. These type of images are not allowed in the Image Galleries if you read the FAQ posted by Captain Cascader. The same process, but of higher quality, is used for the "HeroGenerator3" site. These are beautiful images as I've recently checked the site out. Yet there is a problem with it.

Due to the fact the person posting them may be "creating" a design of a character, but he or she isn't really making any alterations. These images already exist with templates and backgrounds. Not trying to be too nit picky but it would be preferable for someone to make an effort to create. It is the same process but only better than Micro or Mini Heroes. Another issue is that too many users will be tempted to use the same process.

EDIT: Just one last thing: Some people have been using photocopies or other devices to copy and trace existing images and trying to pass them off as their own art. It is often hard to tell when it happens but I often can. That shouldn't happen and wished it would stop.

#25 Posted by EGoD (1494 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, so much going on here the last few days. I've always found photo manips to kind of stretch the rules a bit in the contests. Like it's noted, the contests were started with the idea of artwork being original. Photo manips aren't really "original" so to speak, they are existing artwork that has been pasted together and altered to some degree (meaning the person didn't actually physically draw it themselves). There is always going to be a debate about certain types of artwork being a valid entry and most of us have come to accept all forms of art in the contests. I do believe that anyone posting a photo manip should always post that it is exactly that. Some of us may realize that but I've also seen some people who may not be artists actually believe the person drew it. Perhaps noting such things on altered art would help with that issue and allow manips to still be welcomed entries to the contest (we've seen some people who do fantastic work on photo manips and sometimes it's hard to tell if its a photo manip or an actual drawing, modern technology allows us to bleed the lines). It may be hard for people to show all the reference material they use in photo manips (not to mention clog up threads with alternate images).

On a whole, most entries have been accepted in the contests. Any art that was rejected was because someone posted another artists work with no alterations, which has caused some drama since the person assumed everyone knew it wasn't theirs. That's never the case, I personally don't know every published artists styles, only those I may be fans of.

The art contests are designed to be fun and allow the variety of artists on this site express themselves. Getting overly technical about it makes the contest no longer fun, and creates drama that clogs up threads. I do feel that if anyone is using someone elses art to manipulate into their own creation whether it's changing the colour or pasting other costumes over top, it does need to be said "photo manip" when posted. I know some people have stated that and when I've started a judging thread I also post that beside the name so that it's clear to everyone what was created by that artist.

#26 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio

@spawndon: if someone just half asses something, no ones gonna end up voting for it anyway, especially if they show a before & after that doesn't look impressive. They'll either want to improve or keep churning out garbage.

I'm betting they'll want to get better, and there's lot of people here to give tips there. :)

Basically I feel the attitude about manipulations needs to lighten up and accept they're part of existence. I started with those 15 years ago because that's all's I had and knew. I got by for years happily just in photoshop until I wanted to do more, specifically these contests. Then it wasn't enough just to hope I could find the piece I wanted and I forced myself to figure out other ways to make pieces than using photos and drawings. These days I practically just use photoshop for adding text but I still regard it like my crayons that got me going.

Have faith that anyone involving themselves with relevant work in these threads are gonna want to grow and let them, even if the first things they throw in seem subpar, give them a chance to do a couple and feel the urge to get better.

They will if they're serious, or they'll disappear if they're not, either way rejecting them outright certainly isn't gonna give anyone a shot at growing.

@Decept-O: yea someone who regurgitates something out of microheros or generator with no work on their part isn't contributing anything. But someone who takes a render from that, loads it into an editor and does something additional to it now is not just regurgitating, they're actually doing what your current creation theme is all about, morphing ;)

I know it pisses off a traditional artist when stuff like this comes along and seems to take away from the magic you do, but the truth is it doesn't. People are capable of seeing each process for what they are. Is an electric guitarist any more or less a guitarist than an acoustic one? No, and neither is a traditional or a digital artist. It's not the drawing that makes you an artist, it's the vision and how you translate that to others.

The image you had in question is not just a generator render, it's a piece of that which someone put some work into in an image editor and added details and composition. If you use generator yourself you'll find that although you can do very basic things you can't produce what he submitted without working on it elsewhere.

Whether people draw, trace, or paste, just enjoy the fan art and let it exist in all it's forms. People are free to choose what they do and don't like all on their own. :)

#27 Posted by maxicere (935 posts) - - Show Bio

Well .. I think the photo manipulation and 3D are the same process: Take an external photo or ready made template or model (for 3D) and amended. The source of this art is not one's own. Nobody takes the time to get your own photo and manipulate it, nobody takes the time to make the 3D model (because of time or whatever). If manipulation of photos is not allowed, not should be allowed the 3D art. It is logical.

But the solution to the problem it's not what would be allowed and not allowed. The solution is more complex. The solution is categorize art contests by style. Could have competitions for pencils, inks, 3D, photo manipulation, etc. And we know that this is not going to do.

In addition to the previous discussion, how annoying this situation is counterfeiting, adulteration and fraud. A very open contest invites people to participate who might not understand the meaning of competition: Be creative, grow and learn by doing art. Fortunately, there are no prizes in this contest, this would be a scandal every day ...

I think all we must to talk and talk to make these contests more big, less problematic.

#28 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio

@maxicere: well fortunately I'm extremely fluent in both so I can assure you that a tremendous amount of work, knowledge, and attention to detail goes into composing a piece digitally with something like 3D and I've spent over a week on my current piece. That's as long as any penciler out there spends on their work.

Regardless of whether I draw what I want to create, it takes the same amount of thought, understanding of light and shadow, and composition that any great penciler would do and in fact gets even more complicated because it requires a mechanical understanding of the software to even operate. A Pencil would almost be easier to just pick up, but it's not what I want to excel in, 3D is.

Separating these contests so there's a digital or traditional would be totally silly, everyone here is an artist in their own right regardless of how they choose to do it. If their style sucks, or has no interesting qualities it'll disappear all on it's own without anyone making any stupid prejudgements to start banning things.

It's like this, drawing does not make you an artist, nor does claiming yourself to be. What you do, and how you show it, develops into a style that makes people aware you are regardless of how you approach it. ;)

#29 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll append this thought as well to anyone out there who feels they're not getting an outlet from the contests to show their style, anyone is welcome to the monthly showcase and there's a category to cover ever side. As long as your serious about your efforts I'm not gonna reject it.

If there's a category missing, I'll add it. ;)

#30 Posted by spawndon (1373 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonis said:

I'll append this thought as well to anyone out there who feels they're not getting an outlet from the contests to show their style, anyone is welcome to the monthly showcase and there's a category to cover ever side. As long as your serious about your efforts I'm not gonna reject it.

If there's a category missing, I'll add it. ;)

How I dumbly put negative comments when you proposed to start it, but this may well be the solution, if the current discussion does not bring about an end to the problem.

I will have to second what Tonis said about 3D. Its much work even for using templates and posing, and much more work if someone is digitally sculpting/modelling.

#31 Posted by SC (11932 posts) - - Show Bio

I am usually to slow to finish artwork for most of the regular contests that roll by lol, aside from monthly, but I do start a few, so i don't feel I am as artistically involved as I should be. That being said my 2 cents thrown in, I pretty much agree with all of what Tonis is advocating, or expressing. Maybe its because I am so outrageously slow with my own art, but when observing other peoples art, that is something I always consider as well. Alongside such things as skill, or creativity. People's perceptions here can be a bit subjective naturally as far gauging how long it takes an artist to do something, but I think above all else, participation is what should be the biggest priority. Even if it means, opening the door to artists who are a bit new, or don't apply as much effort or time into art as say myself.  
 
Just another point of view (one aware that I don't participate in as much art threads as I'd like or as much as some of you, so I can understand alternative outlooks)   

Moderator Online
#32 Posted by Decept-O (7270 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonis: I don't know man I really don't I don't think the user who submitted his entry was doing the same as the contest theme "morphing". He didn't make any edits or alterations like you, LeeThomasArt or others do. He simply used the site to have it create for him. In fact, those images are static.

Your analogy of acoustic and electric guitars and the like isn't applicable. Trust me, I got over that myopic viewpoint about music and the instruments used a long time ago. I see where you're trying to go with it but that isn't my line of thinking here. At all. No way.

This is just one tiny tiny little thing I am bringing up. I mean, I am open to virtually all types of mediums used but when someone is using a site that generates the image with already existing images, I have to be reticent about it. You're right, the contests are just for fun. I WANT them to be fun, just like everyone else, yet also FAIR.

Wouldn't someone who puts time and effort into their work get upset if someone who used a site to create their art for them won?

Even though we don't "win" anything, it is simply about being fair and creating the art in a fair manner. Also trying to make it appear that the user drew the art themselves bugs me, instead of saying how it was rendered. Naturally you shouldn't always have to say how but it doesn't hurt to be honest about it instead of trying to make people think you drew it when you didn't.

This was my contest and I could have chosen to reject that piece or not; initially I did but took your input to consideration and relented. In past contests I questioned a couple of very minor things but instead received rude and hateful replies, including ones saying the contests and rules were up to the person hosting. That is partially true but we also should follow the Guidelines posted here. That is what I am doing but I am not being an ass about it. I am not trying to deny anyone a shot of winning. I can understand what you're saying but I am just having a hard time really thinking that method should be allowed.

Kind of up in the air I guess.

#33 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio

@spawndon said:

@tonis said:

I'll append this thought as well to anyone out there who feels they're not getting an outlet from the contests to show their style, anyone is welcome to the monthly showcase and there's a category to cover ever side. As long as your serious about your efforts I'm not gonna reject it.

If there's a category missing, I'll add it. ;)

How I dumbly put negative comments when you proposed to start it, but this may well be the solution, if the current discussion does not bring about an end to the problem.

I will have to second what Tonis said about 3D. Its much work even for using templates and posing, and much more work if someone is digitally sculpting/modelling.

hehe, well when I made it, it was to solve this particular kind of dilemma :)

I don't think there's a real problem to solve here however, we all just try making fan art for challenges at all different levels in all sorts of different ways. The competition is really within oneself more than against other artists to create something ones happy with.

@SC: as usual most eloquently said.

Whether you participate a little or a lot your presence and beautiful work is always a treat to see.

It's not the speed you go to get somewhere, it's where your going that really counts. ;)

#34 Posted by Decept-O (7270 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC: My viewpoint is NOT about denying newer users. IF you read any of my comments in the contests and threads I go out of my way to compliment and welcome as many people as possible. I don't own the site nor have any personal involvement other than liking the site and the Artist Forum.

If you're "slow" to create something, use a method that is fair. That is my point. Simply using stock images and posting them and pretending they're your own, that isn't right.

OK, I am once again the bad guy but that's the way it goes.

#35 Posted by Decept-O (7270 posts) - - Show Bio

: Just to add, when you host a contest, you can actually put forth the guidelines for that contest. If you don't want someone to submit something that is Photo Shop or Digital, you have that right. If you don't want someone to submit something that is drawn with pencil or pen and ink, you have that right.

Someone else might object to what I just said, but read the Guidelines. This is stated there!

#36 Posted by RamsIllustrations (1003 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonis: @maxicere: @Decept-O:

When I started on the Vine and adding my two cents art wise, I too had reservations about 3D being used in the contests. Shatterstar corrected me since I felt it shouldn't be allowed.

It is a form of creative expression and needs talent and creativity in a different way to execute a persons vision. It is art but the tools are different from what a lot of us use in a traditional or even digital sense.

When drawing digitally, as long as you have a form of pen and a surface to draw on and your pen strokes are mimicked, be it Manga, Sketchbook Pro or Photoshop etc, I see no reason why it should matter since instead of drawing on paper its a form of Tablet or Glass that you may be using to replicate your hand gestures.

We are moving in a digital direction and have to be more accommodating to the different forms of art being used and the tools that help produce it. I do have more of an issue with photo manipulating and chopping pieces from another persons art to make it their own. Where it's ok with me is if it's Photos being used and are worked from as bits and pieces and then reworked into an art piece that has colors and lines overlayed in a way that it looks like a piece of art without it showing that it was an actual photo to begin with.

Being on the Vine has opened my eyes to being more accepting of art that is not conforming to what has been traditionally accepted in the past. Where I draw the line, pun intended, is where you have a program, be it on the web or computer, where you just pick the replicated pieces and form something by choices of clothing or avatar like images. Anyone can do that and it really isn't considered that persons art. It was provided by an auto generated type of system. In other words, I am in agreement with the statements above on this.

I think much of this is something that irks individuals that have taken so much of their time to improve and hone their art skills from scratch and it may feel like cheating. What I have to remember is that, we are here for fun and many times the best piece does not always win, it's about what strikes each individual "voters" fancy! : P

Draw on Viners!!! :P

#37 Posted by Decept-O (7270 posts) - - Show Bio

@RamsIllustrations: I don't object to 3D and Digital works. Not at all. I enjoy them and have voted for users like Tonis frequently.

My point of contention is when people are using stock images. Hopefully you can read my other replies and see my viewpoint about it.

#38 Edited by RamsIllustrations (1003 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decept-O:

Yeah I wasn't directing my comment towards you, just stating my generalized opinion. Nothings is at stake here but a little pride at times but the fact that we all congregate here for the sake of practice and sharing ideas is the value that is of most importance.

#39 Posted by SC (11932 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decept-O:  Oh, its okay Decept-O. I sincerely do not meant to imply that your viewpoint is about denying newer users, I apologize if I made it seem that way. Oh and I do personally know, you are extremely positive and welcoming to many, myself included and I really, really appreciate that. **smile** 
 
We just personally I believe disagree on the terms fair and right? Solely this I believe. When I look at your work, and a few other artists at CV, I can tell (or I believe I can tell, how long it took you) or at the very least, know, it took you a while, if not took a lot of natural skill, to come up with compositions and consider lighting, and then just the grueling task of actually putting pencil to paper or mouse to screen. Even more so when comparing to an artist that may have taken two stock images and put them into a program and rotated them and ran a few filters and played around like that? Now your saying if that latter artist won a competition, over  a former artist, that that is unfair and that the former artist would be upset? I can empathize with that artist, if from an objective vantage we knew they put in more time? Skill. Effort, creativity, originality and consideration, but then wasn't as recognized as someone who didn't put those things in. Me personally? I wouldn't be upset or that bothered.  
 
On top of that, when I go to vote or appreciate peoples art, or talk about art, I usually recognize what art work looks like a lot of TLC was devoted to it (say your art) compared to someone using stock imagery and a bare minimal amount of effort (I want to be careful here, because I know some artists who use stock art who spend a long, long time, and a lot of creativity and skill to create a new piece of art)  So I think if I can tell, most people around CV can tell. If we can't tell? Its probably a sign that the person put in enough effort to distinguish their art from whatever stock they used. So I personally tend to - not dismiss work that looks minimal. I think creativity should be rewarded, but I reward creativity, combined with originality, and effort, and consideration, that much more? The only thing I think that os not fair, is when an artist, purposefully and with intent, looks to deceive others with art. There has only been on artist as far as I know, on CV that did that and hopefully he is gone. (others might know if there are more) 
 
So awwh, i don't think anyone considers you the bad guy? I understand your point. We just maybe disagree with the capacity of CV posters to recognize artistic traits evident in artists artworks and what that means? I don't see an artist spending 5 mins in photoshop getting more recognition for such art, over someone like you, who I think most artists can tell puts in a lot more creativity, effort, skill and thought into your pieces of art? Competition wise, or generally?  
  
My apologies again if I came off antagonistic. **smile** 
 
 
@tonis said:

Whether you participate a little or a lot your presence and beautiful work is always a treat to see.

It's not the speed you go to get somewhere, it's where your going that really counts. ;)

 
Ah thank you Tonis. I agree. Art is so broad, I really just like the fun it brings for artist and observers and participation.  
 
So many Comic Vine posters I know, are scared of art and consider themselves bad artist, but secretly doodle in programs like FlockDraw, and my preference is on getting in more people to give it a try, and the more artistically discerning with still be able to appreciate and recognize the artists who put more serious thought into their artwork. 
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#40 Posted by maxicere (935 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonis:

Don't get me wrong. I did not mean to be derogatory, or detracting from the work done in 3D. I know the time it takes them and the challenge they generate. I only referred that the manipulation of photos and art in 3D does not start from zero. Both arts are based on a photograph or a model already done. Can you add a background, create light and shadow or something else, But the work began across an edit of a 3D model. Photo manipulation it's the same point, the design born through an edit of a photography. This don't kill originality, creativity or beauty in a artwork. I didn't say anything more than that. I say if 3D is valid, photo manipulation must to be valid to a contest.

I'm not one to despise the work of another person. You know you gets my votes a lot of times for your artworks.

#41 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decept-O said:

: Just to add, when you host a contest, you can actually put forth the guidelines for that contest. If you don't want someone to submit something that is Photo Shop or Digital, you have that right. If you don't want someone to submit something that is drawn with pencil or pen and ink, you have that right.

Someone else might object to what I just said, but read the Guidelines. This is stated there!

I'll be the first to say that if someone actually does that, I'll never join another challenge they offer no matter how cool it might be. ;)

That would be totally lame and without justification other than some snobby opinion on what makes an artist.

@RamsIllustrations: you always make me laugh, and with words of wisdom and real experience. It's your challenges that actually opened my eyes to wanting to get past just using photoshop. I actually did 50 contests before I ever even started getting any votes and I could tell what was helping and what wasn't. My point with all of this is really that no one is gonna be able to make even a dent in the contests integrity if they just keep using generator and I'd like to see the creative bastard who can produce something that satisfies their eventual interests with our selections. Give them a chance to grow out of it, if they want to join in the fun seriously here they'll simply have to and no one will need to ban something.

It's essentially win/win :)

#42 Posted by Decept-O (7270 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC: No you didn't come off as being antagonistic by any means! In your reply you are saying what I am saying; it is the point when someone is trying to deceive others by pretending what they're posting is their own art.

Trust me I am not "upset" about the other methods used and in fact enjoy all the mediums. It is just the one where you use a site to generate the image for you that has me annoyed.

Thanks for your kind words.

#43 Posted by IcePrince_X (4628 posts) - - Show Bio

Well as a traditional artist in every possible way, the entrance of people with computer skills do come as a major advantage these days.

Its frustrating that you can see images well rendered and colored compared to your hand drawn and hand painted. But its a fact that we have to face and accept. The world of art has fully embraced this technology, shouldn't we? I for one is making steps in learning how to paint digitally applying my background as an artist. I know I can simply paint it but if my scanner or camera can not give justice to the painting that I did then it defeats the purpose.

At the end of the day what is important is the work should be done by the person or there is effort done and not just a simple copy and paste. Manipulation of images is difficult to accept but I do believe we should be open minded to it. I will not mention names but I've seen entries coming from existing photos of statues and people then manipulated in such a way so it becomes their artwork. "Art Quoting" is common in history and its no wonder some people are doing it especially now that technology is readily available.

The artist contest should be fun and should be a venue to express oneself in their art - traditional or contemporary. In almost all the contest that we have, it has been proven that even with outstanding art works it does not always translate to a win. At the end of the day, its the community who decides. If we trust them, then it will be okay because I believe they will surely vote for the artist that showed what the contest should be... so we give it to that.

#44 Posted by Decept-O (7270 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonis: It is in the Guidelines. If an artist says to make your work using just macaroni noodles, then that is the challenge. I bring this up not to deny anyone but pointing out, man it is there. It makes it a challenge.

I do agree, putting forth such restrictions isn't very fun and in fact all the contests I've managed to host I've put forth all mediums are accepted.

#45 Posted by RamsIllustrations (1003 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonis:

To me if it has originality and was put together with spaghetti and coat hangers and looks like Batman, is then photographed and scanned and posted, who am I to say it's not art unless otherwise noted by the specific contest. I just realized I had to chill and join in the fun, yeah there's competitive streak in me but it's only used as a way to catapult my skills in a positive forward direction. The supportive comments can be very helpful at times and whats art worth, if it's not seen or you can't share it?

#46 Posted by Decept-O (7270 posts) - - Show Bio

@IcePrince_X: I agree. I think the point is getting misconstrued a little here. Some people do object to using computers and other technology but I don't. Your points are very well said and made.

Again, my point of contention is when someone is trying to pass of images as their own art, like they drew it. That really is my whole point, and unless I am mistaken, the point of some others right now.

#47 Posted by RamsIllustrations (1003 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decept-O:

Agreed, there is no originality or creativity by doing it that way and shows no effort and should not merit being in a contest.

#48 Posted by Decept-O (7270 posts) - - Show Bio

@RamsIllustrations said:

@Decept-O:

Agreed, there is no originality or creativity by doing it that way and shows no effort and should not merit being in a contest.

Thank You. You just summed up in one succinct sentence I've been murdering paragraphs trying to say. That is my point. Be original. Be creative.

#49 Posted by RamsIllustrations (1003 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decept-O:

Anytime Buddy, I have been told I have a knack for using words, they get me in trouble sometimes too, heheheh...

#50 Edited by Decept-O (7270 posts) - - Show Bio

OK, I am going to say this even though some are trying to say I am not "open" to other methods of art. That is BS. I am very open to many forms. I HATE that this is being implied. I really do, in fact it is pissing me off. I've had that discussion before but I am willing to admit the tools used to create comic art are changing. Yes, I will stick with traditional methods because that is what I know and enjoy.

There are many many comic artists who still use pencil, pen and ink and paper.

I think it is great to have a mix of different mediums used, digital, 3D, photo manipulation. I already said that and I meant it.

Hate having to defend myself when it isn't necessary.

EDIT: Its getting late. Been a "fun" topic but I am worn out. Sheesh.