Fantastic Four #588: The Final Issue—Discussion

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#1 Posted by leokearon (1852 posts) - - Show Bio

This wouldn't be the final issue of Fantastic Four, It will be back in 12 issues time
#2 Posted by danhimself (22693 posts) - - Show Bio

the most powerful thread of the issue for me was Thing's story....I feel like he took it harder than anyone else...despite all the pranks and everything that Johnny pulled on Thing he really was his best friend/brother so he lost a lot
 
also I'd like to see if Daken has any kind of reaction to Johnny's death....maybe there was actual friendship there instead of just manipulation
 
solid issue for me...but then again I've loved Hickman's run so I had no doubt that he wasn't going to be able to pull off the final issue and do it well

#3 Posted by Bestostero (5618 posts) - - Show Bio

Great video, I don't read FF but I'll have to pick this up if you guys say it was better than Nightcrawler's death.

#4 Posted by Soldier zero (250 posts) - - Show Bio
@xhavoc86 said:
" Great video, I don't read FF but I'll have to pick this up if you guys say it was better than Nightcrawler's death. "
I think that's not too difficult, Kurt's death was both pointless and handled pretty bad in my opinion.
#5 Posted by Joey Ravn (386 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really follow Marvel's comics, but all the hype surrounding the end of this series made pick up the last couple issues to see how everything would unfold. Am I the only one who thinks Johnny Storm isn't really dead?  
 

#6 Posted by kitsuneconundrum (208 posts) - - Show Bio

johnny storm is having tea with the sentry.

#7 Posted by kitsuneconundrum (208 posts) - - Show Bio

so doctor doom will become biff tannen?

#8 Posted by queenfrost_ (2499 posts) - - Show Bio

What's this other funeral issue? O_O

#9 Posted by G-Man (37766 posts) - - Show Bio
@queenfrost_: Amazing Spider-Man #655. 

#10 Posted by Fantasgasmic (1071 posts) - - Show Bio

In the scene with Reed and Sue, her face looks TERRIBLE. And not like "she looks like she's been crying" or "she doesn't look hot." The second panel (at 3:36 in the video) and also when she's in the bubble its like the face is too small to get the level of detail the artist tried to, so the sunken eyes look too raccoon-y and the mouth looks weird too.

#11 Posted by Billy Batson (58271 posts) - - Show Bio

hmmm

#12 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@G-Man said:
" @queenfrost_: Amazing Spider-Man #655. 

"
Eh?
#13 Posted by kungnima (180 posts) - - Show Bio

Hickman already said in an interview that he wont be back in a year. Think it was newsarama.

#14 Posted by Band Lone (1789 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh I wanted the Thing or Mr. F to die

#15 Posted by StarKiller809 (1239 posts) - - Show Bio
@G-Man:  Woah, Spider-man is dead?
#16 Posted by the_fallen11 (636 posts) - - Show Bio

I think they will stay away from Fantastic Four until Johnny comes back which I dont thin it will be in a year, I think they will stay wil FF until Johnny comes back (whenever that is) then they will go back to Fanstastic Four
#17 Posted by G-Man (37766 posts) - - Show Bio
@StarKiller809: No, no. Spidey didn't die. A supporting character did. Buuut, there is the Death of Spider-Man story coming up in the Ultimate Comics.
#18 Posted by RedK (2521 posts) - - Show Bio
@danhimself said:
" the most powerful thread of the issue for me was Thing's story....I feel like he took it harder than anyone else...despite all the pranks and everything that Johnny pulled on Thing he really was his best friend/brother so he lost a lot  "
have to agree and i'm not a big Thing fan, also Spidey hanging out with Franklin
#19 Posted by Shadowdoggy (3815 posts) - - Show Bio
@queenfrost_:
I was wondering the same thing.....
#20 Posted by leejunfan83 (123 posts) - - Show Bio

love the new comic discussion videos

#21 Posted by Shadowdoggy (3815 posts) - - Show Bio
@leejunfan83:
agreed 
much more interesting than the old reviews
#22 Edited by ArtisticNeedham (2303 posts) - - Show Bio

The Last Stand of The Human Torch
I commented after reading this, and the Spider-Man issue, that these are imaginary characters.  They weren't real and so they didn't really die, and their friends and family didn't really loose anyone.  But I still got misty eyed during the comics, especially the FF comic, especially during the Thing scene.  Incredible comics that make me feel so sad for characters that never were.
also, cool shirt G-Man.  I have that (actually two of them).
 
 
 
 

 
When Marvel did Captain America #600, I think it was, he was still dead and they did the Marvel universes reaction to him being gone.  Norman Osborn trying to stop a rally in his honor, and then trying to use it, his close friends from his secret life as Steve Rogers remembering him, and heroes reactions around the world, plus behind the scenes info from the creators, I think Marvel can do the same here.  Show how life is for the FF now, remembering Johnny who is still gone, and some insider info about the FF comics from the creators themselves.
#23 Posted by Shadowdoggy (3815 posts) - - Show Bio
@ArtisticNeedham:
hey me too!!! 
(about the shirt) 
but I can't place one of the faces on it 
the guy with brown hair that isn't Reed 
that's always stumped me
#24 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3561 posts) - - Show Bio
@Joey Ravn said:
" I don't really follow Marvel's comics, but all the hype surrounding the end of this series made pick up the last couple issues to see how everything would unfold. Am I the only one who thinks Johnny Storm isn't really dead?  
 
"
That's part of the reason I don't get the whole hype about this. What's the big deal about a character that's not actually dead? Characters in Marvel don't really die. They go on hiatus until some writer brings them back. It renders all this drama meaningless. Everyone is getting all emotional about something that didn't happen.
 
Even Nightcrawler will be back eventually.
#25 Posted by Shadowdoggy (3815 posts) - - Show Bio
@FoxxFireArt:
the emotion isn't about him BEING dead 
it's not like WE have to miss him, deal with his death, or wish we could see him again 
it's about seeing the other characters deal with his death and miss him and go through the pain of his loss 
we can ALWAYS see him again 
because he's in comics, movies, games, etc 
the sad thing is watching the emotional turmoil the rest of his friends and family go through after his death 
it's not meaningless if the journey and struggle the characters are going through seems real
#26 Posted by Atari_Graphics (176 posts) - - Show Bio

I never kept up with FF as a kid reading comics in the early 90's. I was crazy about the X-Men, Spider-Man, and Silver Surfer mostly. I only started reading FF books if they were tied into larger story arcs like Civil War or Secret Invasion but after reading FF #587 last month I have to admit this book got me emotional.  
 
I felt the silence at the beginning was powerful. Sues reaction and Ben were the strongest for me. And I agree with everybody about the story Spiderman shared with Franklin and tying in how he lost his uncle definitely struck a surprising cord. 
  
definite recommend!   

#27 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3561 posts) - - Show Bio
@Shadowdoggy: 
It is meaningless because after all this character drama. He comes back. Meaning that every character has all these over the top reactions over something that didn't happen.
 
After he does come back, all the drama before it was a waste. It's drama with no consequence. It's like a cheesy soap opera.
#28 Posted by Shadowdoggy (3815 posts) - - Show Bio
@FoxxFireArt:
I see what you mean 
but I think the reason soap operas are SO cheesy and unbelievable because the reactions are so unbelievable 
this issue really showed how emotionally vulnerable death makes someone, even a superhero 
and he's not coming back any time soon 
not this year, any way, according to Hickman 
I think the consequences can be felt without the death having to stick 
it's not nearly as pivitoal, but IMO that doesn't lessen the emotional effect it has on the people who were close to him 
the death isn't about the idea that he'll never be back 
it's a comic, of course he'll come back 
it's about the characters honestly thinking he won't ever come back
#29 Posted by shawn87 (2095 posts) - - Show Bio

we need more videos like this and the unscripted reviews again

#30 Posted by HexThis (915 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked the whole comic up until the Spider-man part. 
 
This is a Fantastic Four comic, it's supposed to be the quintessential, final bow of the series and it ends with Spider-man? Why not just throw in Wolverine too!? I'm so tired of Marvel pushing these icons into every damn title, why can't the Fantastic Four just have an issue to themselves? Particularly their final issue. Haven't they earned that? But no, Spider-man has to punctuate the tragedy by re-iterating it to a little boy...how generic.

#31 Posted by Shadowdoggy (3815 posts) - - Show Bio
@HexThis:
well, we already know that Peter is going to be a part of the Future Foundation, so it sets that up 
also, he and Johnny were REALLY good friends for years 
Spidey's even been a member of the 4 (both as a stand in and as a member of the "new" FF) 
I think it was fitting 
and he could help Franklin more than most 
franklin respects him and he knows what it's like to lose an uncle
#32 Edited by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
#33 Posted by jakob187 (998 posts) - - Show Bio

Great discussion, guys.  I'll say that I felt the same way about Doom possibly joining with FF just from the scene that you guys mentioned. 
 
One thing that I felt differently about, however, was the last scene with Reed in the book on Day 29.  You guys mentioned that he was assessing all these different threat levels.  However, I think it was the exact opposite.  If you look at the grief in his eyes and the posture he has while he's sitting there, he's looking at all the threats...and he doesn't seem to really care.  It feels like the grief is stacking up so high on him that he's just letting these threats get bigger because he doesn't want to do anything about them.  I mean, between the way that Sue and Thing both handle their grief and mourning, the two of them handle things in an almost completely opposite way than they would normally act.  In turn, if Reed were to go the opposite, he would stop being the calculator and workaholic and just turn into mush, sitting around and staring at stuff that needs to be done without actually doing anything about any of it. 
 
Nonetheless, profound issue and great artwork.

#34 Posted by ArtisticNeedham (2303 posts) - - Show Bio
@Shadowdoggy:  Thats Fury, Nick Fury of the Howlin Commandos.  Before he lost his eye, got some gray hairs, and became a super spy.  Back when he was Sgt. Fury.
#35 Posted by Thor's hammmer (7184 posts) - - Show Bio

what did reed right on the board that was neccessary?
#36 Posted by danhimself (22693 posts) - - Show Bio
@FoxxFireArt said:
" @Shadowdoggy:  It is meaningless because after all this character drama. He comes back. Meaning that every character has all these over the top reactions over something that didn't happen.  After he does come back, all the drama before it was a waste. It's drama with no consequence. It's like a cheesy soap opera. "
because the characters don't know that he'll be back or not....WE don't know if he'll be back or not
#37 Edited by Blue Son (485 posts) - - Show Bio

His "death" was wack, and I don't believe he's dead...

#38 Posted by MooseyMcMan (136 posts) - - Show Bio

I still think it isn't possible to kill a guy MADE OUT OF FIRE. Unless you have enough water. 

#39 Posted by JonesDeini (3620 posts) - - Show Bio
@Soldier zero said:
" @xhavoc86 said:
" Great video, I don't read FF but I'll have to pick this up if you guys say it was better than Nightcrawler's death. "
I think that's not too difficult, Kurt's death was both pointless and handled pretty bad in my opinion. "
Kurt's death was stupid and one of the worst things that happened in Second Coming. I get it, okay. The man of Faith dies for "Hope"...sheesh. How inventive. And that funeral was a farce. It had no emotional impact, no weight. Sure we saw Logan, Hank,& Ororo get pissed at Scott, but it felt forced and inorganic. All of it just felt like a prerequisite death that all events seem to require now.  
 
 
I could care a less about Johnny Storm to be honest. He's been pointless for most of this decade to me. I'm not a fan of the Fantastic Four by any stretch of the imagination, but I love Hickman. So once this is bound in trade I may check this arc out. 
#40 Posted by JonesDeini (3620 posts) - - Show Bio
@FoxxFireArt:  
That's why I'm not a fan of character death, especially at marvel. Because if you're a hero it doesn't stick. And I find it hard to believe that other heroes would act as if death isn't an average inconvenience in their world. Shoot just have Franklin' warp him back :P 
 
I mean I love the impact that Ted Kord's death has had over at DC, it was nice to watch how it affected Booster especially, but I know some writer that wants him back will eventually have his way and bring him back. Just look at all the character resurrections prior to and after Blackest Night/during brightest day. 
#41 Posted by tobiasPUNK (120 posts) - - Show Bio
@G-Man:  love it.
#42 Posted by tobiasPUNK (120 posts) - - Show Bio

i do love that they're keeping fantastic four fresh, even though johnny storm will eventually come back in one form or another and reed will then decide to bring the fantastic four back into action. still an awesome concept.

#43 Posted by sora_thekey (8184 posts) - - Show Bio
@Shadowdoggy said:
" @FoxxFireArt: the emotion isn't about him BEING dead it's not like WE have to miss him, deal with his death, or wish we could see him again it's about seeing the other characters deal with his death and miss him and go through the pain of his loss we can ALWAYS see him again because he's in comics, movies, games, etc the sad thing is watching the emotional turmoil the rest of his friends and family go through after his death it's not meaningless if the journey and struggle the characters are going through seems real "
I like this answer!  
He'll be back... but how the rest of the characters deal while he's gone is the interesting part. 
 
I say that it is too convenient for the series to end #588 and not re-name FF back to Fantastic Four. Captain America was renumbered to #600 and he was dead. Why not go back to #600 and still have Johnny dead? 
#44 Posted by Doctor!!!!! (2055 posts) - - Show Bio

When is he gonna come back to life,or do I need to wait a few more monthes.

#45 Posted by Sorpaijen (1 posts) - - Show Bio

In the "X-Factor" comic, Siryn refused to believe her father (Banshee) was really dead, even though EVERYONE else 'knew' he was dead. She reasoned (quite sensibly) that -everyone- seems to come back from the dead. So she wouldn't accept his death. Of course, eventually she DID... but it was refreshing to see a character think like we readers think, considering the nature of their world.


#46 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3561 posts) - - Show Bio
@sora_thekey said:

" @Shadowdoggy said:

" @FoxxFireArt: the emotion isn't about him BEING dead it's not like WE have to miss him, deal with his death, or wish we could see him again it's about seeing the other characters deal with his death and miss him and go through the pain of his loss we can ALWAYS see him again because he's in comics, movies, games, etc the sad thing is watching the emotional turmoil the rest of his friends and family go through after his death it's not meaningless if the journey and struggle the characters are going through seems real "
I like this answer!  He'll be back... but how the rest of the characters deal while he's gone is the interesting part.  I say that it is too convenient for the series to end #588 and not re-name FF back to Fantastic Four. Captain America was renumbered to #600 and he was dead. Why not go back to #600 and still have Johnny dead?  "
It's not an answer. In the character's world, when have they ever had real death? They have often thought a character was surely dead, but returned in some way. How many funerals have they gone to for characters that keep returning?
 
This isn't some grand landmark in comic book history where they really killed off a major character. It's a publicity stunt. That's fine, but why go on acting as if it's anything else? Marvel comics are filled with people who supposedly "die", but never do. They killed him off, but they will return him in a year or so and try to make that another publicity event.
 
I can't sit and read something while pretending that I don't know the answer. I can't forget that no matter what, this character is going to return.
 
Look at Mayday Parker. Whatever became of her? Marvel character's never die. They just fade away. She wasn't even given a death in her series. She was just erased from existence with BND.
 @danhimself said:

" because the characters don't know that he'll be back or not....WE don't know if he'll be back or not "

Yes, we do know he will be back. This isn't some ambiguity where the reader is wondering if the character will be back or not. We do know he will be back. The only question is how long.
 
As far as the character's perspective, read my comments above. How come the characters aren't more cynical when they know a lot of people who "die" then come back?
#47 Posted by sora_thekey (8184 posts) - - Show Bio
@FoxxFireArt said:
" @sora_thekey said:

" @Shadowdoggy said:

" @FoxxFireArt: the emotion isn't about him BEING dead it's not like WE have to miss him, deal with his death, or wish we could see him again it's about seeing the other characters deal with his death and miss him and go through the pain of his loss we can ALWAYS see him again because he's in comics, movies, games, etc the sad thing is watching the emotional turmoil the rest of his friends and family go through after his death it's not meaningless if the journey and struggle the characters are going through seems real "
I like this answer!  He'll be back... but how the rest of the characters deal while he's gone is the interesting part.  I say that it is too convenient for the series to end #588 and not re-name FF back to Fantastic Four. Captain America was renumbered to #600 and he was dead. Why not go back to #600 and still have Johnny dead?  "
It's not an answer. In the character's world, when have they ever had real death? They have often thought a character was surely dead, but returned in some way. How many funerals have they gone to for characters that keep returning?
 
This isn't some grand landmark in comic book history where they really killed off a major character. It's a publicity stunt. That's fine, but why go on acting as if it's anything else? Marvel comics are filled with people who supposedly "die", but never do. They killed him off, but they will return him in a year or so and try to make that another publicity event.
 
I can't sit and read something while pretending that I don't know the answer. I can't forget that no matter what, this character is going to return.
 
Look at Mayday Parker. Whatever became of her? Marvel character's never die. They just fade away. She wasn't even given a death in her series. She was just erased from existence with BND. "
It is an answer... Whether you want to admit it or not no human being is prepared for death (whether it's temporary or not). According to scientific studies our bodies' mechanisms are made to keep on living forever. So in essence no one is ready to die or see someone die. 
In this fictional world these characters are surrounded by death all the time, but it is unrealistic for them to be "bored" of death or funerals. They will still mourn for whoever died, even if they are only dead for a day. 
 
On a side note, Mayday died in Spider-Girl: The End
#48 Posted by The Mast (790 posts) - - Show Bio

I love it when people act like they're too cool or too jaded to feel the emotion in this story.
 
If you are, fine, and I do understand that. However, to act like it's stupid for ANYONE to get invested in a death is just ridiculous.
 
Seeing **** tear up when The Thing went crazy and broke down? How can you NOT feel that?

#49 Posted by SpideyIvyDaredevilFan26 (6514 posts) - - Show Bio

Bout fraking time.
The only members of the 4 (Now 5) I like is the Thing and Spider-Man.

#50 Posted by Trodorne (2596 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought it was a fantastic issue, and they really want to say to us the hey human torch is dead and he is not coming back. to Franklin richards, they made Johnny into Uncle ben (not the rice company). 
 
 we have a strong undertone from the kids that their main priority right now in life is to take down annihilus at all costs. they are the only ones in the family who want vengeance for the death of johnny. another favorite point was thing grieving out in the desert with hulk and thor.

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