Who Can Telepathically Bypass Emma's Diamond Form?

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#1 Posted by thewidowsbite (138 posts) - - Show Bio

On her page in the powers section describing her diamond form it states that she is "telepathically immune to all but a couple of telepaths". Which telepaths? Any scans that indicate this?

#2 Edited by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

only cosmic level beings

#3 Posted by God_Spawn (37386 posts) - - Show Bio

Xavier and Jean both have. Both are more powerful telepaths than her.

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#4 Posted by arcano_19 (118 posts) - - Show Bio

yup in new x-men jean could and even manage to return her to her biological state

#5 Posted by XsPectre28 (714 posts) - - Show Bio

id agree with xavier & jean, if rachel was more trained she probably could too, hope only because she could mimic emma's power & possibly cable since he no longer has the TO virus can will possibly have his powers fully restored

#6 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that when she gained her diamond form the writers didn't give her this level of immunity so it was bypassed from Jean, Xavier and Martah Joahnson. Then the writers gave her the telepathy immunity and now I think that she's totally immune to telepaty while she's in her diamond form: she's resisted to hundred of Sinister's clones while she was in her diamond form so I think that she can handle every telepath while she's in her diamond form.

#7 Edited by God_Spawn (37386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha: Xavier did it just 2-3 years ago when Emma had the void sliver in her. The immunity isn't that recent. My theory on how it works is diamond form keeps telepathic energy in and out. Emma is the bar. Any telepath on her level or weaker cannot get in. This is perhaps why Emma cannot access her telepathy and project her thoughts is because her psionic energy cannot get through her diamond exterior. However, take telepaths more powerful and she is just resistant to them. Jean and Xavier are more powerful than she is and both bypassed her diamond defenses.

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#8 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

Xavier isn't more powerful than Emma. When he bypassed her diamond defenses it was PIS and Emma was also consentient, if she wanted him away from her mind she could stop him in every moment. When Jean bypassed her it was a lot of years ago when her diamond form wasn't completely developed and Jean was also possessed by the Phoenix Force

#9 Edited by God_Spawn (37386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha said:

Xavier isn't more powerful than Emma. When he bypassed her diamond defenses it was PIS and Emma was also consentient, if she wanted him away from her mind she could stop him in every moment. When Jean bypassed her it was a lot of years ago when her diamond form wasn't completely developed and Jean was also possessed by the Phoenix Force

Xavier is more powerful than her. She hardly stalemated Exodus while Xavier beat him with a bullet in his skull and Xavier has already stated his mind is more powerful than hers. She also needed psychic prep to beat him. And Jean didn't need the PF to do it. None of it is PIS cause 2 consistent telepaths on a higher level have bypassed her defenses. If you want to ignore it and call it PIS, then fine, but I see the evidence is there and disagree.

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#10 Posted by Ceddsong (44 posts) - - Show Bio

To be honest it's really a matter of who is writing the X-men's premier telepaths. It's been stated that Emma is the most powerful telepath on the planet, in some outdated tome. This statement was written, I believe during the time Xavier was dead so obviously the status-quo has changed however Emma herself has stated that she and Xavier are both ( and please don't hate me for referencing this) "Omega Class Telepaths" (fanfare, ominous thunder). And this delicious morsel of info was revealed after Xavier's miraculous return. So it stands to reason that Xavier and Emma are likely on the same level. And while I acknowledge Xavier sent Exodus scampering it's feasible to imagine a myriad of reasons why Emma couldn't trump him, that have nothing to do with power levels. Perhaps she skipped breakfast so she could fit into her soft leather pants. I'm sure some writer one day will have Emma pimp slap Exodus and your example will become invalid. I think it's best to use current examples. All that said. Jean Grey is on a completely different level than Emma. That notwithstanding, Jean's impressive feat; transforming the White Queen to her significantly less invulnerable flesh is a telekinetic feat not telepathic. When I read New X-Men I thought she used telekinesis to transform our dear queen. But what ever I'm rambling. As far as I'm concerned her telepathic immunity is inconsistent and based solely on necessity to the plot. But I would favor saying most telepaths sans Jean are incapable of piercing Emma's defenses without her direct permission, Xavier included.

#11 Posted by God_Spawn (37386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ceddsong: Her and Xavier are just in the same class of power, that does not mean that they are the same level. Feats and instances between them and their own separate suggests Xavier is the superior of the two. By however much or little the difference is there and it sticks to my theory and what happened.

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#12 Edited by Ceddsong (44 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I see where your point. Though I disagree with the conclusion. Emma and Xavier have both performed feats the other has yet to accomplish or have performed feats the other has later replicated. Without there being an all out telepathic brawl between the two it's hard for me to say one is better than the other. Segueing. Has Xavier ever breached Emma's diamond form without her permission? I don't count the void shard, since she let him in. In which that needs clarification too. I hate inconsistency.

#13 Edited by God_Spawn (37386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ceddsong: I do count the void shard. Letting him in has nothing to do with it, otherwise the natural immunity/resistance would be pointless as her own telepathic power should be enough to overpower and push out most of anyone. What I take the natural defense as is her adamantine luster. That is described as suppressing her telepathic energy from going out and what I presume blocks telepathic energy coming in. As I said before, Emma's mental powers is her bar. Anyone stronger can get past the adamantine luster ie Xavier and Jean, anyone weaker ie Sinister or Cuckoos, can't. Or maybe it is up to plot, but I follow my theory on this.

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#14 Posted by oviouslyjeangrey (400 posts) - - Show Bio

HULK

#15 Posted by God_Spawn (37386 posts) - - Show Bio

@oviouslyjeangrey said:

HULK

Yeah, cause Hulk's telepathy>>>>>Jean Grey's.

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#16 Posted by Mercy_ (92635 posts) - - Show Bio

@oviouslyjeangrey said:

HULK

Since when is Hulk a telepath...?

Moderator
#17 Edited by oviouslyjeangrey (400 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mercy_: Erm Its was kinda joke lol, but hey thanks to your quote I got a quest complete thanks. :)

#18 Posted by oviouslyjeangrey (400 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Lol of course not it goes Jean>>>>>>everything else. XD jk

#19 Posted by God_Spawn (37386 posts) - - Show Bio

@oviouslyjeangrey: NUH UH!!. Madder Hulk gets stronger Hulk mind gets, but not grammar.

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#20 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: What you say about psionic energy explains why what happened with Xavier is PIS. The diamond form is capable to stop the psionic energy from going out and coming in like a shield. It doesn't matter how much strong you are, it reflects the psionic energy so it stops telepathic powers. It's easy.

About Exodus Emma was able to inibite his telekinesis while Xavier couldn't. And she has beaten Charles while Xavier has never beaten Emma.

Her diamond form has stopped hundred of Sinister's telepathyc clones, and a hive mind like that is much stronger than Xavier.

@Ceddsong said:

@god_spawn: I see where your point. Though I disagree with the conclusion. Emma and Xavier have both performed feats the other has yet to accomplish or have performed feats the other has later replicated. Without there being an all out telepathic brawl between the two it's hard for me to say one is better than the other. Segueing. Has Xavier ever breached Emma's diamond form without her permission? I don't count the void shard, since she let him in. In which that needs clarification too. I hate inconsistency.

I completely agree with this

#21 Posted by God_Spawn (37386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha: And again, you aren't paying attention. Her immunity is only as high as her power, which I have stated quite a few times in this thread. Anyone higher than her power level can get through, ie Jean and Xavier.

That was CIS on Exodus' part. There was no reason he couldn't use a little of his telekinesis to throw off Emma, he wouldn't have been overpowered that quickly. And he could have just been waiting for his vampirism to weaken her. Regardless, she stalemated him while Xavier bested him and with a bullet in his head. And again she needed psychic prep to beat him and in that same story we were told his mind was stronger. You're ignoring facts and just looking at the outcome with special instances behind them for a case, it's weak on your part.

No they weren't. The Sinisters' telepathy was only as powerful as Sinister himself, that single mind connected all the others and was the hive mind. Emma was the one who used her telepathy to screw that up. If you believe that hundreds of clones are vastly more powerful than Xavier and Emma was able to defeat that link, then quite frankly I don't know what to tell you but it isn't good.

I don't mind if people disagree but if this is the way you debate then I'm agreeing to disagree and I don't feel like going around and around on this. We both believe what we want to and walk away.

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#22 Edited by nikbackm (184 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say the immunity of the diamond form is close to absolute (barring cosmic level of power) most of the time.

That's how it was depicted in the First Class movie as well, Magneto had to force her out of the diamond form so Xavier could access her mind via his TP.

It was said to be immune in the recent X-Men Anime too.

#23 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: This is a hypotheses of yours. The diamond refracts the psionic energy coming from both inside and outside, so I do not see why Xavier should be able to bypass it: his telepathy is still psionic energy and therefore can be stopped. There were two reasons why Xavier has exceeded her defenses: 1. Emma was consenting, 2. It was a narrative device because otherwise the Void splinter would not be removable.

Emma has used her ability to stop Exodus' telekinesis. It wasn't CIS, it was pure ability.

It was a hive mind. It means that their minds and their powers were linked together in one powerful mind. They were stronger than Xavier and Emma stopped their telepathy.

@god_spawn said:

I don't mind if people disagree but if this is the way you debate then I'm agreeing to disagree and I don't feel like going around and around on this. We both believe what we want to and walk away.

Nice, I'm walking away

#24 Posted by kamionero (313 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on the writer HAHAHAHA.

Seriously though, the only one with a shakier condition is Psylocke (supposedly she was inmune to telepathy and reality manipulation, we all know that lasted what a fart in the wind lasts).

But seriously... I get how Phoenix overwhelms her and turns her bio with her cosmic telekinesis/telepathy mix, but in Dark Avengers, when Emma is in full on diamond, and a weakened, drained Xavier is able to communicate with her... it was a huge WTF moment. I always assumed it was a coloring mistake and she was supposed to be flesh at that point.

#25 Posted by Dextersinister (5808 posts) - - Show Bio

The last mention of her telepathic immunity protected her and Hope power copying from a genetically altered sinister hivemind. I think there was an incident where a writer made her more vulnerable to telepathy in diamond form because she couldn't access her own telepathy and there was an occasion where she could use telepathy in diamond form but in most causes it's outright immunity if protection in diamond form is ever brought up.

#26 Posted by fanofsuperheroes (213 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe the only reason Jean can bypass Emma's telepathic immunity in diamond form is because as part of the phoenix, the phoenix force is ALL psionic energy, Emma has her psionic energy in her diamond form and thus allows the part of Jean connected to the phoenix force to be able to reach that energy. I agree with Veitha. Its stated she has complete immunity in many instances and writers often ignore these things for story purposes.

#27 Posted by God_Spawn (37386 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

Xavier and Jean both have. Both are more powerful telepaths than her.

Moderator
#28 Posted by fanofsuperheroes (213 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@god_spawn said:

Xavier and Jean both have. Both are more powerful telepaths than her.

You can continue to say that ALL you want, it doesn't make it true, ESPECIALLY as there were circumstance for Prof X. AND their is an underlying Phoenix Force in Jean. I get that you believe that and don't like story purposes but that is your OPINION, not fact. Others disagree and as many times as you want to post your opinion doesn't change the fact that it is still just your opinion. Can you name one other telepath that has been able to do it??

#29 Posted by God_Spawn (37386 posts) - - Show Bio

@fanofsuperheroes: Nope, but I don't need to.

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#30 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17406 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@oviouslyjeangrey: NUH UH!!. Madder Hulk gets stronger Hulk mind gets, but not grammar.

@Mercy_ said:

@oviouslyjeangrey said:

HULK

Since when is Hulk a telepath...?

@oviouslyjeangrey said:

HULK

@god_spawn said:

@oviouslyjeangrey said:

HULK

Yeah, cause Hulk's telepathy>>>>>Jean Grey's.

THIS IS WHY PEOPLE DISLIKE HULK!!!!!

#31 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@fanofsuperheroes said:

@god_spawn said:

@god_spawn said:

Xavier and Jean both have. Both are more powerful telepaths than her.

You can continue to say that ALL you want, it doesn't make it true, ESPECIALLY as there were circumstance for Prof X. AND their is an underlying Phoenix Force in Jean. I get that you believe that and don't like story purposes but that is your OPINION, not fact. Others disagree and as many times as you want to post your opinion doesn't change the fact that it is still just your opinion. Can you name one other telepath that has been able to do it??

Why would another telepath need to be cited for being able to bypass Emma's diamond form?

#32 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3914 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@god_spawn said:

Xavier and Jean both have. Both are more powerful telepaths than her.

#33 Posted by Roddy010 (5159 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@god_spawn said:

Xavier and Jean both have. Both are more powerful telepaths than her.

#34 Posted by fanofsuperheroes (213 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: If you actual read my earlier post as well as others there are circumstance around Professor X and Jean to be able to do it. It is very justifiable to ask for a different example of a telepath with no special circumstances that has been able to penetrate her diamond form.

#35 Posted by fanofsuperheroes (213 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think anyone is disputing that Jean or Prof X are more powerful Telepath's than Emma.

#36 Edited by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@fanofsuperheroes said:

@lykopis: If you actual read my earlier post as well as others there are circumstance around Professor X and Jean to be able to do it. It is very justifiable to ask for a different example of a telepath with no special circumstances that has been able to penetrate her diamond form.

No idea why you would think I didn't read this thread -- what I did read was people's ideas and opinions as to why both Professor X and Jean were able. It's extremely simple ---- Emma is unable to access her telepathic abilities when she is in her diamond form -- due to that form. Even if she wanted to "allow" Xavier to access her mind, how would she be able to do so? No one here has yet to address this satisfactorily. Phoenix or not, Jean was also able to perform the feat as well --- whether the Phoenix enhanced her telepathic ability or not, the point being made was Jean was able to penetrate Emma diamond form to access her mind. Telepathically.

So --- no --- I don't see the reason why any other telepath would be required to prove themselves capable of telepathically bypassing Emma? Two already have.

But to continue this conversation -- I wonder if Legion would be capable of doing it. It would be interesting to see what his part will be now that his father was killed by Cyclops -- he should be coming against the new group Cyclops is leading in the near future.

#37 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

During their fight, Emma threw Jean away from her mind becoming of diamond and then Jean used her TK to make her return back normal and she entered her mind. At the end of the fight Emma wasn't made of diamond, read it again. And that's non true that she can't use all of her telepathic powers in diamond form, she stated this during Agents of Atlas vs X-Men, when she said that she could sense other telepaths and minds when made of diamond, so she can allow Xavier to enter her mind if she wants.

#38 Posted by Roddy010 (5159 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha said:

During their fight, Emma threw Jean away from her mind becoming of diamond and then Jean used her TK to make her return back normal and she entered her mind. At the end of the fight Emma wasn't made of diamond, read it again. And that's non true that she can't use all of her telepathic powers in diamond form, she stated this during Agents of Atlas vs X-Men, when she said that she could sense other telepaths and minds when made of diamond, so she can allow Xavier to enter her mind if she wants.

Jean got through Emma's diamond form with no problem. Her tk played no part in it. As a matter of fact she only used her tk to reconstruct Emma's shattered body.

#39 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@Roddy010: in the seventh scan you see Emma becoming diamond and throwing Jean away from her mind. Then Jean attacks Emma with the PF throwing her away with TK and THEN she can enter into her mind.

#40 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3914 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha said:

@Roddy010: in the seventh scan you see Emma becoming diamond and throwing Jean away from her mind. Then Jean attacks Emma with the PF throwing her away with TK and THEN she can enter into her mind.

What scan are you looking at? That is Emma trying to build up a protection from Jeans intrusion because she arrogantly believed her diamond form was an issue, it wasn't. They never left Emmas mind Jean only used the tk to make Emma face her and then they were in her mind. Emma was already in diamond form since the second scan. The fact that she would automatically go into a diamond form she thought would protect her from telepathy kinda proves that Jean would have dominated her telepathically like she did even with the diamond form on, because the scans show Emma being in diamond form through the entire ordeal. Look at her in the 4th scan on the ground in diamond form and Jean just strolls on . After a while they aren't even in Emmas mind anymore, Jeans mind had completely consumed her and was in control of everything in both their minds.

#41 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: I'm looking at a scan where Emma Frost uses her diamond form to throw her away from her mind and she, and then Jean uses the PF to telekinetically hit her. In fact, at the end of their battle Emma wasN'T in her diamond form, and this is the proof that Jean has beaten her while she wasn't made of diamondf.

I don't know if Jean is stronger than Em' coz they've never thought before using only telepathy or without the Phoenix Force or fragments of the Phoenix Force, but the only person who has bypassed Emma's diamond form was Martah for me, and this is was just a writer mistake or Martah was using her ability so stop mutants powers to stop Emma's telepathic immunity.

#42 Posted by Roddy010 (5159 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha: You are seriously misinterpreting those scans. Jean only used her tk to move Emma and her chair to face her. In fact Emma was still on the ground (in diamond form) when Jean invaded her mind. I'd also like to point out that Jean didn't have any of the Phoenix during this run. It wasn't until NXM #148 did she gain the force. All of the Phoenix manifestations were her powers performing at their peak thus creating the Phoenix raptor which she has done many times on the astral plane.

#43 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3914 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha said:

@LordOfAllHumans: I'm looking at a scan where Emma Frost uses her diamond form to throw her away from her mind and she, and then Jean uses the PF to telekinetically hit her. In fact, at the end of their battle Emma wasN'T in her diamond form, and this is the proof that Jean has beaten her while she wasn't made of diamondf.

I don't know if Jean is stronger than Em' coz they've never thought before using only telepathy or without the Phoenix Force or fragments of the Phoenix Force, but the only person who has bypassed Emma's diamond form was Martah for me, and this is was just a writer mistake or Martah was using her ability so stop mutants powers to stop Emma's telepathic immunity.

If you had actually read the issue you'd know that scans are missing, before the 7th there is a panel showing Emma gathering her thoughts into a cohesive image, as you can see in the 7th scan her thoughts are now being shattered and this why Jean makes the comment.

You are looking at a telepathic fight without the Phoenix now. I believe I explained to you in another thread in the battles forum that Jean was not using the Phoenix force and since Revolution it was explained that she used the firebird as her ultimate telepathic attack, and that no shield can withstand it.

The last scan is Jean after the Phoenix has been released, before was examples of the first 3 scans above.

You can believe what you want as far as Martha being the only on, but it's not true this is Xavier bypassing it to allow Scott to enter her mind when she had the Void sliver trapped via her diamond form

#44 Posted by fanofsuperheroes (213 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not sure why anyone is saying Jean wasn't using the Phoenix power when she clearly states in the third scan, You and me AND THE PHOENIX. I am going to believe the actual comic and not others who misinterpret them. It clearly states she is using the Phoenix. That's how she could do what she did as the PF is the essence of all psionic energy.

As far as the Legion statement, I hope that comes soon cause that will be quite exciting.

#45 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11264 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mercy_ said:

@oviouslyjeangrey said:

HULK

Since when is Hulk a telepath...?

Wait...you didn't know? Behind the times you.

#46 Posted by SoA (4709 posts) - - Show Bio

Martian Manhunter with the mind gem using cerebra

#47 Posted by Mercy_ (92635 posts) - - Show Bio
@Supreme Marvel

@Mercy_ said:

@oviouslyjeangrey said:

HULK

Since when is Hulk a telepath...?

Wait...you didn't know? Behind the times you.

Shame on me and my lack of knowledge
Moderator
#48 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@fanofsuperheroes said:

I'm not sure why anyone is saying Jean wasn't using the Phoenix power when she clearly states in the third scan, You and me AND THE PHOENIX. I am going to believe the actual comic and not others who misinterpret them. It clearly states she is using the Phoenix. That's how she could do what she did as the PF is the essence of all psionic energy.

Exactly. And the baloons were black to indicate that she had the Phoenix Force.

@Roddy010: @LordOfAllHumans: you read the scans this way, but I don't. And at the end of the battle, Emma wasn't in her diamond form after that Jean has used her TK to hurt her and revert her back from her diamond form.

#49 Edited by queenfrost_ (2499 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean and Prof X and maybe Selene?

I think I have a scan proving Rachel can't (even with the PF) and I don't think Hope has ever tried...

#50 Posted by Roddy010 (5159 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha: You can misinterpret the scans all you want it still won't change the fact that Emma was in diamond form when Jean invaded her mind. (which you can clearly see in this panel)

@fanofsuperheroes said:

I'm not sure why anyone is saying Jean wasn't using the Phoenix power when she clearly states in the third scan, You and me AND THE PHOENIX. I am going to believe the actual comic and not others who misinterpret them. It clearly states she is using the Phoenix. That's how she could do what she did as the PF is the essence of all psionic energy.

As far as the Legion statement, I hope that comes soon cause that will be quite exciting.

Did you even read the New X-men Arc? Jean was at the height of her mutation, which manifested itself as the Phoenix. Jean has often referred to herself as well as her power manifesting at it's peak to this same force. (She even adopted the codename "Phoenix" for years after DPS). So don't get confused with writer's play on words. If you read this arc you would know Jean didn't actually obtain the force until NXM #148. The actual force was waiting for her in the sun.

Jean is an omega lvl mutant. That is why she got through Emma's diamond form.

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