Her combat skills

#1 Posted by oldgum (326 posts) - - Show Bio

Where did she learn all her combat skills? Sebastian Shaw?

#2 Posted by Darksteelwing (78 posts) - - Show Bio

Combat skills as in hand-to-hand? I don't think it was Sebastian Shaw who taught her. 

Back in Generation X #43 Emma was able to hold her own against Banshee in hand-to-hand combat. After that Banshee said something like "you've been training, right?". This leads me to think that she started practicing after the death of the Hellions. So she either started training on her own or hired a tutor. More recently, she told Storm that Cyclops was training her.

#3 Posted by Skaddix (3113 posts) - - Show Bio

Emma has no hand to hand skills as revealed in Astonishing and New x-men. At all the senior x-men, she is probably the worst.

#4 Posted by Son Of Storm (11262 posts) - - Show Bio
@Skaddix said:
" Emma has no hand to hand skills as revealed in Astonishing and New x-men. At all the senior x-men, she is probably the worst. "
No she isn't.
#5 Posted by sonic5328 (92 posts) - - Show Bio
@Skaddix: 
I have to disagree. She may not be the best but she does have some. She went up against the Hulk in hand to hand combat during World War Hulk and clearly has some fighting skills since she can fight while in diamond form.
#6 Edited by Skaddix (3113 posts) - - Show Bio

The Hulk curbstomped all the x-men, besides Banner isn't known for his incredible hand to hand skills. He relies on brute strength to win his fights that and strategy occasionally. Emma also had an army of x-men with her, I am going need to see scans of Emma fighting a named opponent of note in actual combat (not practice), one on one before I change my position. Also I meant none in comparison to other Senior X-men.

#7 Edited by Son Of Storm (11262 posts) - - Show Bio
@Skaddix
There's never really been a "need" for her to do any high level H2H. I mean she's the most powerful "active" psychic that the X-men have. If she really wanted to learn how to fight she could absorb the skills of Psylocke,Wolverine,Storm, and Scott. And lets not forget that the woman is capable of global telepathy. Which means that she could easily absorb the skills of high class fighters(both normal and possibly superhuman). So in reality Emma could POTENTIALLY be the best fighter in the X-men.  But again she has psychic powers that rival Xavier's. She can make her opponent beat themselves up. So why would she get her hands dirty?
#8 Posted by nikbackm (184 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son Of Storm:  You got it. Emma shouldn't be an accomplished HTH fighter, it's much more suitable for her character to rely on telepathy. There are other characters to handle physical fighting, which Emma for the most part would consider beneath her.
 
You could of course argue that learning HTH would be useful if she lose her powers, but what would be the point of doing such (by now rather overdone) plots if everyone affected just had phenomenal fighting skills to fall back on? Part of the fun of such things is exactly the fish out of water element. Also, having everyone be a kick-ass fighter would get (or has gotten) rather tiresome and cliche.
 
Finally, her having excellent HTH skills would in a way take away from her telepathy. Xavier is at his best in that regard when he's in a wheelchair rather than walking around after all (due to the contrast of the world's most powerful mind in a frail crippled body). Just as calling Psylocke a powerful telepath seems rather ridiculous when she persists in fighting her foes hand-to-hand and often ends up gutted as well :)
#9 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio

pretty damn good. at around the time she was head mistress in Generation X (mentioned above) she was displaying above the grade
mixed martial arts. factor that with the wealth of combat experiance she has gained since...and being solid diamond at times gives
a definitive edge.
 
and yes, she needs them. because she's smart and someone who is smart knows there powers can't help them in every situation.
especially when your a mutant who lives in a world filled with power dampeners and such.

#10 Posted by nikbackm (184 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE said:
"and yes, she needs them. because she's smart and someone who is smart knows there powers can't help them in every situation. especially when your a mutant who lives in a world filled with power dampeners and such. "
The CHARACTER Emma Frost definitely does not them. Rather the opposite I'd say. If we approach it from an in-universe perspective, then sure, the PERSON Emma Frost might well have use of them. 
 
But in that case a gun and the attitude to use it "correctly" would be even better. No HTH helps much against a bullet after all. 
 
Come to think of it, Emma HAS been known to use guns on occasion when her powers were useless. Same goes for Professor X for that matter. I guess she judged that taking a few marksmanship lessons to be a much better use of her limited time than the long process to become a proficient HTH fighter :)
#11 Edited by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@nikbackm: 
thats your opinion. on panel she is shown to have them, obvious reason the thread is even here.
hence, the character Emma Frost decided she needed them if she learned them.
ADDED: she on several occasions uses her diamond form to brawl, even when she could have used
her powers. why? because she was keeping her very adequate fighting skills sharp in case she was
in a situation where she would need to rely on them.
person and character Emma though? are you fevered?
#12 Posted by nikbackm (184 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE:   Of course it's my opinion about what fit's the character best, what else would it be?

I don't think I can agree that she's been shown to have them on panel though. Taking Banshee by surprise in a practice session once hardly counts for much in the long run. It's not as if he would have gone all-out on her either. Don't really recall much else (so-called) HTH skills displayed in Generation X by Emma other than that. There was of course her being sneaky a few times, like when she kicked Leech or used a watermelon to defeat an enemy. Nothing wrong with that, and it fits her character perfectly, but it's not a good example of her supposed HTH skills. Neither was her striking down Banshee another time when she was mad at him. That was also a surprise strike, and seemed more to be intended as humor (like much of Gen X) rather than to display her skills.

Has there been anything before or after those times in Generation X?

There have been counter-examples though, like in AXM: Ghost Boxes where Storm and Emma had to face a big monster without their powers. It was taken down by Storm while Emma did nothing. (To be fair, Storm did have a knife while Emma was unarmed) 
 
Note: With this I don't mean to say she's totally helpless of course, but she really does not amount to much (if anything) in the HTH department compared to those where it's a part of their characters. Nor should she (IMO).
#13 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@nikbackm: 
shes been shown on panel having a good amount of fighting skills eitherway. i'm sorry you seem to have missed the issues
(many since the diamond form revelation).  she also has a second diamond form. h2h is her primary skill used in that form. because 
you don't preffer it that way doesnt nix it out. thats the same as saying Moondragon is a top level psychic therefore shouldn't have fighting skills, 
yet shes shown on panel being protege to Gamora in h2h. the question posed her isnt whether you think they should have been there, as the OP 
stated its where did she get them (because he/she obviously read a comic as did I, and noticed how well she was doing). If you need an instance 
where she willingly goes out in diamond form and shows well fighting skills, refer yourself to the issue of Uncanny where she joins Colossus
in beating up a bunch of his enemies bar room brawl style, and is keeping up with him the whole way. and taking Banshee is a big deal.
Banshee was trained Black Ops. now is she Elektras rival? no, but she could give Elektra a good sparing session, and shows enough where
Elektra would take her on as a student if asked, and thats saying a lot. It would be simply illogical to even resume that she lacks in this department
considering the amount of time she has spent in the field fighting other super humans, on whichever side of the chessboard, notwithstanding
the amount of education she went through in her youth. and to itterate, the fact that she has a h2h form. why would writers give this to her, and
keep it, if they planned on her being a mediocre fighter? the answer is they wouldn't and didn't. she really is easily in the black belt and then some
department to say the least. the fact that for a large part of her history she was shown prominently using her mental powers doesn't erase the fact
that her fighting skills are there either. the comparison would be to say a character can't cook because they aren't shown doing it, except that one time.
that would be doublespeak, and not the plusgood variation. when we go to the department of opinions, mine is thats good. a character like Cyclops
is also well rounded despite having a form of major firepower. so is Storm. even Charles Xavier is shown being a great h2h combatant and even 
marksman. why make them 1-dimensional?
#14 Posted by nikbackm (184 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE:   Maybe we are defining HTH skills in different ways.

In my mind a comic book character having HTH skills means that it's something the writers will be aware and take advantage of in their stories. For characters like Daredevil, Captain America, Black Widow, Electra, Bullseye, Taskmaster etc HTH are a very big part of their power-set. For others, like Storm, it's there, but really secondary most of the time. She's good, but would lose to all of the above. And it's mostly something she'd fall back on when her primary powers are not adequtate for the situation at hand.

Still others like Banshee might in theory be quite competent (due to cop, soldier etc. training), but still it's something you hardly ever see them use in the comics. HTH skill in the comics usually means doing more spectacular things like back-flips, flying kicks and so on. Simple basics like an understanding of balance, how and where to strike, how to hold a knife etc. are a little too subtle to portray. Not to mention useless against opponents those with other powers usually fight.

Emma would fall somewhere below Banshee in this regard, she might be on the level of someone who has taken (or regularly takes due to being good excersize) self-defense classes (e.g. those taught women who want to protect themselves against rapists; basic stuff, not the serious comic-book ninja-skills), but hardly someone on a professional (or even amateur) real-world martial artist level. Needless to say, this level of skill is not something you'll ever see highlighted or used in a comic book story and thus not worth considering a part of their abilities (except in comic book discussions like this :)

As for the diamond form, I'm well aware of that, but I don't really consider any fighting she has done in that form as a display of noteworthy HTH skills. Not that hard to fight the things she has done (like regular humans or cannon-fodder tinrobots during Utopia) when you have a super-strong, invulnerable diamond-form. Would you for example also consider the old Savage Hulk to have good HTH skills? Or Juggernaut? Rhino? If you know of instances where she defeats multiple and/or stronger enemy combatants in her human form it would be another issue of course.

I don't think the diamond-form is meant  to give her good fighting skills. It's main purpose (so far as I've seen it used) is to keep her alive against opponents her telepathy does not work against (e.g. Sentinels). It's also good for disciplining willful students (like Elixir that time he cowardly hit Colossus from behind).

So has Electra actually met Emma and offered to take her on as student? Sounds quite interesting, can you say which issue or title this was? Enemy of the State storyline maybe?

But as for Emma (sans TP or diamond-form) giving Electra  good sparring session, please Electra would have no problem with her, even with the handicap of having both hands tied behind her back. She (and others whose HTH skills are so good that they are like a power unto themselves) is several leagues above Emma in that department.

Likewise Banshee and Xavier might be quite good marksmen due to their soldier training, but they would still be insignificant compared to a pro like Bucky-Cap or someone who has it as a power like Bullseye. So theoretically real-world competent in something does not mean much in the super-powered comic book world. At least not the vast majority of the time. It's certainly not something we see in the actual stories. And if we never see it, does it really count?
#15 Edited by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@nikbackm: 
your missing the point. 
they've been shown and her skill in h2h as well.
regardless of the amount of times they have shown it or if another character is the better fighter it's there.
that means she has fighting skills. thats the entire premise of this thread. 
being theoretical doesn't eliminate static evidence to the contrary, no matter how hard you want to spin it.
 
your ideology boils to this
 
" Emma has never wore black because..."
1. " ...while she has worn black, she has predominately wore white
2. "...other characters wear black more often than Emma does. "
 
see the hole in your logic?
#16 Edited by nikbackm (184 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE:  As I tried to clarify in the previous post, I don't say that she has no fighting skills, just that they are rather insignificant in the context of the MU comic books. Or in other words, they are not really part of her core character, much like I would say that HTH skills are not part of the core characters of Magneto or Xavier either.
 
So I take that Electra never offered to take on Emma as a student?
#17 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@nikbackm: 
of course she didn't. i was pretty transparent about the fact that i was using a comparison as to were i personally set her skill rating. 
 
at this point however, i'm resolving that we agree to disagree, as i certainly don't disagree with you and by your idiocincracies
its apparent that your frustrated, as well i believe you unreachable. (deja vu of our last talk actually, isn't it). 
 
i'm not a fan of posting scans, especially when i know for fact the person i'm addressing has seen them, knows where to find them and
is ignoring that they exist. especially a gaggle of them. but this is a special case so i chose one i felt illustrates things very well, and its not for 
you though, but for the other users that come this way and find themselves in argument with you.
 

  
as a martail arts student of several years, i can tell you that for Emma to plant a perfect judo-kick
from a disadvantaged position is not a task for the unskilled.
 
have a happy.
#18 Edited by nikbackm (184 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE:  Elektra as mentor: Ok, it still reads as you were stating a fact, but if it was only speculation, fine.
 
As you might expect, no, I don't consider Emma in her super-strong diamond-form managing to kick (but not knock out) a surprised Sage to be any great display of skill. Especially not as she lost that fight a few panels later via BFR, being out-maneuvered by the superior skills of two opponents of normal human strength and durability regardless of her superior physical power. So I would say that fight is actually a mark against her supposed HTH fighting skills. No shame in that, Bishop should be quite a good fighter, having fought most of his life. And that Sage version was a bit of a deus ex-machina too.   
 
(And managing a kick that would be hard in real-life - forgetting the super-strength part - does not mean much in the comics, where we have people of supposedly normal durability survive being thrown through walls. It's just not comparable that way).
 
What  idiosyncrasies do you mean? That I don't consider Emma a HTH fighter of a notable (in comic book terms) skill? Sure. That I would prefer it to stay that way as well? Guilty of that as well. We already have Storm if we want a character that is all things to all people. 
 
Again, not saying she wouldn't manage to take down your average Joe Mugger (even though she could well fail), but against characters with real HTH skills she's small change.
 
I'm not feeling frustrated in the least, maybe a little bemused that someone actually credits Emma with good (again, relative to the comics) HTH skills :)
#19 Posted by Mainline (1129 posts) - - Show Bio

Whether she has them or not as a matter of fact, I don't think she needs them as a matter of theme.
#20 Edited by Skaddix (3113 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son Of Storm said:
"

@Skaddix


There's never really been a "need" for her to do any high level H2H. I mean she's the most powerful "active" psychic that the X-men have. If she really wanted to learn how to fight she could absorb the skills of Psylocke,Wolverine,Storm, and Scott. And lets not forget that the woman is capable of global telepathy. Which means that she could easily absorb the skills of high class fighters(both normal and possibly superhuman). So in reality Emma could POTENTIALLY be the best fighter in the X-men.  But again she has psychic powers that rival Xavier's. She can make her opponent beat themselves up. So why would she get her hands dirty? "
 
Jean Grey has far greater power then Emma and yet still has better H2H skills then Emma, so if Jean Grey  learns it while possessing omega level tp and tk then yes Emma should be better. Telepathic canceling equipment abounds in the marvelverse so her having tp is not always useful in addition to power dampeners.
Even if Emma copied all knowledge of the moves it would still be useless if she didn't condition her body to be able to perform the moves or practice them enough to build up the muscle memory. Knowing how to perform a skill, is not the same thing as being able to actually do it. Especially in MA where u need to do the move with as little thought as possible.
#21 Posted by Son Of Storm (11262 posts) - - Show Bio
@Skaddix
 Jean Grey has far greater power then Emma and yet still has better H2H skills then Emma, so if Jean Grey  can learn it while possessing omega level tp and tk then yes Emma should be better. Telepathic canceling equipment abounds in the marvelverse so have tp is not very useful in addition to power dampeners. Even if Emma copied all knowledge of the moves it would still be useless if she didn't condition her body to be able to perform the moves or practice them enough to build up the muscle memory. 
 Knowing how to perform a skill, is not the same thing as being able to actually do it. 
Especially in MA where u need to do the move with as little thought as possible. "
What do you think muscle memory is? IF she absorbs their skills(which includes their training and memories) then the muscle memory will follow. 
I would agree if she was trying to copy the "attacks" of people like Iron Fist.

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