Becoming Mary Suish?

#1 Posted by MichonneHack27 (185 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't get me wrong I see a lot of Suish tendencies in Jean Grey. But I'll do hers later. I may not like Emma Frost, but I did have an appreciatation for her in the begining that she wasn't a Sue character. But it does seem lately that they're turning her into a sue. But that could be because she's slept with Tony Stewart/Iron Man and Namor. I don't know it just kinda makes her suish. And apparently being able to help Scott over come his powers so he could see with his eyes. That sounds Mary-Suish too. And then the whole Phoneix bonding to her, the Stepford Cuckoos being her "daughters"(I admit though it does explain their close resemblance to her now). And being pushed into their relationship by Jean. 
 
Emma does have a lot that could make her stand out, but I just hope they know what their doing. There's a difference from a great character and a Mary Sue. I may not like Emma, but come on. Even she doesn't need to be molded into a Mary Sue to become a popular character.

#2 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@MichonneHack27 said:
"apparently being able to help Scott over come his powers so he could see with his eyes"
Scott has always been able to see with his eyes...
#3 Posted by Mercy_ (92445 posts) - - Show Bio
@Korg
@MichonneHack27 said:
"apparently being able to help Scott over come his powers so he could see with his eyes"
Scott has always been able to see with his eyes...
I think she/he/it/they mean without the ruby quartz visor. Pretty sure it was in Endsong.
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#4 Posted by MichonneHack27 (185 posts) - - Show Bio

No I mean without his visor. Thats the word right?oO Cause of his mutant powers he couldn't take them or his sunglasses off. Sorry if I made that sound cryptic^^;.
#5 Posted by MichonneHack27 (185 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:
Yes thats what I meant. Thanks!
#6 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

That makes much more sense. He saw without the visor during Whedon's run on Astonishing as well. He has been able to see without the visor on multiple occasions when he was de-powered, but that is usually ignored pretty thoroughly.

#7 Posted by Mercy_ (92445 posts) - - Show Bio
@MichonneHack27: No problem. And it's not because of his mutant powers that he can't take it off. He should be able to control the optic blasts, but it's due to head trauma that he received as a child that he isn't able to, unless they've retconned that. 
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#8 Posted by PrinceIMC (5421 posts) - - Show Bio

The fact that they're starting to say that she's an Omega level telepath is annoying. It's like the X-Men's main telepath has to be the most powerful telepath in the world no matter who it is.
#9 Edited by Mercy_ (92445 posts) - - Show Bio
@PrinceIMC said:

" The fact that they're starting to say that she's an Omega level telepath is annoying. It's like the X-Men's main telepath has to be the most powerful telepath in the world no matter who it is. "

It's not  "they", it's Matt Fraction. Who generally writes Emma about as incorrect as you can get without making her an entirely different character (although he's pretty close to doing that). 
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#10 Posted by PrinceIMC (5421 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:
"@PrinceIMC said:

" The fact that they're starting to say that she's an Omega level telepath is annoying. It's like the X-Men's main telepath has to be the most powerful telepath in the world no matter who it is. "

It's not  "they", it's Matt Fraction. Who generally writes Emma about as incorrect as you can get without making her an entirely different character (although he's pretty close to doing that).  "

True. I guess you gotta wonder where the editor is? Shouldn't there be someone there saying: "Nope sorry you can't say she's an omega telepath."
#11 Posted by MichonneHack27 (185 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:
Hmmm well according to one comic. It did say that Emma helped him overcome it. But to be honest I've never seen him without his glasses/visor on.
#12 Posted by Mercy_ (92445 posts) - - Show Bio
@MichonneHack27: I'll see if I can find the scans. Emma did help him, but she did it telepathically, IIRC.  
 
@PrinceIMC said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:
"@PrinceIMC said:

" The fact that they're starting to say that she's an Omega level telepath is annoying. It's like the X-Men's main telepath has to be the most powerful telepath in the world no matter who it is. "

It's not  "they", it's Matt Fraction. Who generally writes Emma about as incorrect as you can get without making her an entirely different character (although he's pretty close to doing that).  "
True. I guess you gotta wonder where the editor is? Shouldn't there be someone there saying: "Nope sorry you can't say she's an omega telepath." "
Honestly, between the horrible art and Fractions disregard for continuity, the only reason I'm still reading Uncanny is because it's the X-Men. If it were basically any other book I'd have dropped it long ago. Hopefully Kieron will start providing us with better characterization than Matt does. 
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#13 Posted by PrinceIMC (5421 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:
" @MichonneHack27: I'll see if I can find the scans. Emma did help him, but she did it telepathically, IIRC.  
 
@PrinceIMC said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:
"@PrinceIMC said:

" The fact that they're starting to say that she's an Omega level telepath is annoying. It's like the X-Men's main telepath has to be the most powerful telepath in the world no matter who it is. "

It's not  "they", it's Matt Fraction. Who generally writes Emma about as incorrect as you can get without making her an entirely different character (although he's pretty close to doing that).  "
True. I guess you gotta wonder where the editor is? Shouldn't there be someone there saying: "Nope sorry you can't say she's an omega telepath." "
Honestly, between the horrible art and Fractions disregard for continuity, the only reason I'm still reading Uncanny is because it's the X-Men. If it were basically any other book I'd have dropped it long ago. Hopefully Kieron will start providing us with better characterization than Matt does.  "

I'm the same way, X-Men is the one book I've never dropped or stopped getting over the past 12-13 years. I figure it's kinda like Saturday Night Live, stick with it and it will get better eventually. Though honestly I haven't really been a big fan of Emma Frost's characterization since she joined the X-Men. Generation X is one of the ones that got me back into comics so I prefered her there.
#14 Posted by SC (12678 posts) - - Show Bio

I think they are making her too codependent, too passive, and too... open I guess? To be Mary Sue-ish. Plus usually I feel the term, would imply that various characters wish to sleep with her, but she is turning them down, rather than actually sleeping with them, since characters will make jokes about her in that sense, rather than admire her.  
 
A Mary Sue Emma, would take a larger leadership role in the X-Men, and characters like Storm and Kitty wouldn't express any opposition or doubt, and X-Men would just basically fall in line, when we know that Emma should really speak in a way, that even if she is right on something, people should still be annoyed at her for how that she may phrase it lol, so Emma should always be arguing a little.  
 
Emma shouldn't really be a Disney villain either. You know how the villains there are mean, cruel, and snide because they didn't get hugged or something as a child? Then after a few sentimental songs and dances some of they actually warm up, open up and be nice? Revealing their soft side? That seems like current Emma, and that part may be a little Mary Sue-ish, at least to me, but thats mischaracterization to me lol

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#15 Posted by Mercy_ (92445 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC: I blame Matt Fraction. Really, I do. 
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#16 Posted by Mercy_ (92445 posts) - - Show Bio
@PrinceIMC said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:
" @MichonneHack27: I'll see if I can find the scans. Emma did help him, but she did it telepathically, IIRC.  
 
@PrinceIMC said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:
"@PrinceIMC said:

" The fact that they're starting to say that she's an Omega level telepath is annoying. It's like the X-Men's main telepath has to be the most powerful telepath in the world no matter who it is. "

It's not  "they", it's Matt Fraction. Who generally writes Emma about as incorrect as you can get without making her an entirely different character (although he's pretty close to doing that).  "
True. I guess you gotta wonder where the editor is? Shouldn't there be someone there saying: "Nope sorry you can't say she's an omega telepath." "
Honestly, between the horrible art and Fractions disregard for continuity, the only reason I'm still reading Uncanny is because it's the X-Men. If it were basically any other book I'd have dropped it long ago. Hopefully Kieron will start providing us with better characterization than Matt does.  "
I'm the same way, X-Men is the one book I've never dropped or stopped getting over the past 12-13 years. I figure it's kinda like Saturday Night Live, stick with it and it will get better eventually. Though honestly I haven't really been a big fan of Emma Frost's characterization since she joined the X-Men. Generation X is one of the ones that got me back into comics so I prefered her there. "
Never actually read Generation X, although I have been meaning to. I loved her characterization in both runs of New X-Men and in Astonishing. 
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#17 Posted by Risky (12629 posts) - - Show Bio

Could someone please explain that Mary Sue term to me so I can think about wether Emma is one or not?  ;p
 
(<----- not a native speaker)

#18 Posted by Mercy_ (92445 posts) - - Show Bio
@Risky: From Wikipedia: 
 


Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such. Male Mary Sues are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Larry Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names.

While the term is generally limited to fan-created characters, and its most common usage today occurs within the fan fiction community or in reference to fan fiction, original characters in role-playing games or literary canon are also sometimes criticized as being "Mary Sues" or "canon Sues," if they dominate the spotlight or are too unrealistic or unlikely in other ways. One example of this criticism is Wesley Crusherfrom Star Trek: The Next Generation.


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#19 Posted by PrinceIMC (5421 posts) - - Show Bio

My most hated Mary Sue was Dash Rendar from the Star Wars expanded universe. The N64 game was good but the book was terrible.
#20 Posted by Risky (12629 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:  Thanks, love. ;)
#21 Posted by Mercy_ (92445 posts) - - Show Bio
@Risky: Anytime. :D
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#22 Posted by SC (12678 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:
" @SC: I blame Matt Fraction. Really, I do.  "
 
No yeah, I do too. Emma is a hard character to write though, I adore Kyle and Yost, but there Emma in Necrosha was weird as well. I think some writers treat her as a Disney bad guy, who just needs some friends and a hug, and her bad behavior and attitude melts away magically. Where as Morrison, Carey and even the writer who wrote the Gambit and Storm one shot, write Emma a bit more intelligent than that, and thats the reason her behavior is so intolerable and polarizing to some. Extremely confident, very intelligent people, who have great insight into the world at large and a natural tendency to be pessimistic often have such biting attitudes.  
 
Fraction writes a dumbed down Emma though, so her characterization is so twisted. She isn't suppose to call people she likes darling, or sweetie, lol, she is meant to call people she is indifferent to those things.  
 
Oh, I did like Fraction's Emma, when it looked like he was going to have her teach those female sex trade victim characters from Russia. I thought that had promise, but sadly it fizzled out.  
 
 
 
Oh, and on the topic of Mary Sue characters, Rogue would be a good example of this over in Legacy, if not for the fact... that Carey writes most of his characters like that as well. Captain America is touted at this in lots of stories. I feel Cyclops is in Uncanny.
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#23 Posted by Mercy_ (92445 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC: I think Morrison pretty much hit the nail on the head. And Kyle and Yost got it right during New X-Men. Carey seems to really get her as well. I'm just so tired of everything and everybody Matt writes pandering to making Scott a badass. 
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#24 Posted by SC (12678 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:
" @SC: I think Morrison pretty much hit the nail on the head. And Kyle and Yost got it right during New X-Men. Carey seems to really get her as well. I'm just so tired of everything and everybody Matt writes pandering to making Scott a badass.  "
 
Oh yeah, I forgot. Kyle and Yost wrote Emma really well during New X-Men. I knew I was forgetting something. Now i can go back to worshipping those two! ^_^ 
 
Yeah, I think a large percentage of X-Men fans are annoyed as well. You know its bad when even Kazar and Shanna the She Devil are doing it. lmao
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#25 Posted by Mercy_ (92445 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:
" @SC: I think Morrison pretty much hit the nail on the head. And Kyle and Yost got it right during New X-Men. Carey seems to really get her as well. I'm just so tired of everything and everybody Matt writes pandering to making Scott a badass.  "
 Oh yeah, I forgot. Kyle and Yost wrote Emma really well during New X-Men. I knew I was forgetting something. Now i can go back to worshipping those two! ^_^  Yeah, I think a large percentage of X-Men fans are annoyed as well. You know its bad when even Kazar and Shanna the She Devil are doing it. lmao "
I'll always love those two. They created X-23. ^__^  
 
I'd boycott if it wasn't the X-Men. Between the art and the writing. 
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#26 Posted by HexThis (880 posts) - - Show Bio

She's not necessarily becoming Mary-Sue-ish but I do find that she's often hindered by her relationship with Scott. 
 
Let's face it, he's no longer the dashing and beautifully corruptable boyscout he was in the beginning. Instead, he's a chump experiencing what looks to be a cross between late adolescence and an early mid-life crisis, either which way, it's not endearing nor is it criteria for a relationship. At this point, she should know better than to just go along with all of this nonsense. 
 
Plus, they feed the flames of eachother's worst traits. Emma enables Scott to be reserved and detached by always relying on telepathic intrusion for communication and Scott enables Emma's superiority complex by allowing her constant passage into his mind.

#27 Posted by Inverno (13057 posts) - - Show Bio

Ironically I consider Kitty Pryde to be more Mary Sue than any of the X-Women.

#28 Posted by kiss_lamia (1247 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, she needs to be a bitch again i say arguments and lots of them lool

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